Reparenting, Receiving, and Reconnecting

You're busy.

Oh my God, yes, I am. I'm really busy and like all the good and bad ways.

Yeah.

Yes. Oh my gosh, you are catching me on a day. Zach brittle.

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah. Well, okay, so for context, we we have a conference coming up in like two weeks.

Yes.

And you're like the boss. You're in charge.

I mean, to say that would be to discredit two people that I have been working with very closely for the last ten months on this, but I have let's say I have a significant role. How about that? Yeah.

You're on the boss team. That's cool.

The boss team? Yeah, it is wonderful. And I've never done anything like this before. And, you know, I also have a little thing called a family that's, like, happening in the background and, you know, I think everybody is just feeling that, you know, my, my daughter had, like, a little meltdown this morning, and it was like looking in a mirror. So like, that is just like front and center on my mind. And I'm like, who's? Yeah. Like deep breaths, deep breaths. And take it in and, like, fucking learn from it. You know, your daughter's trying to teach you something here. And she's going through something herself, so, you know, show up because this is what it's all about.

I have four things I want to talk about today, and that's kind of on the list, but it's. Let's do it. Save it a little bit. Because here's how, here's how, here's how this works. Is today, which is April the 10th, the. Yes, the conference is in two weeks.

Right.

When this comes out, it will be over.

Long gone, thank God.

So how did it go?

It went fabulous. It was such a time. Yes. Yeah. Everybody connected and learned and had fun and got some sun. And it was wonderful.

Yeah. What were the highlights for you,

Being in community with people that I deeply respect and care about and don't get to see on a regular basis. Yeah. Highlight. Big highlight.

How did my presentation go. Is that your favorite one.

You know it knocked my socks off.

Yeah.

Yeah so I did. Yes I, I cried I laughed. I, you know, felt all the feelings.

Oh thanks for saying that.

It was a force.

Is Adam coming?

I wish he was, but someone's got to stay back with said child.

Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Make sure she gets to all the things she's got to get to.

I was wondering if he and Rebecca would become best friends. Like, did they get along well? Well, I guess we'll never know or have to find out later.

Not this time, anyway. I mean, I will never say never, but not this time. Unfortunately, that that would have been absolutely wonderful. But yeah, unfortunately, you know, we're pulling into the end of the school year. She has a golf tournament. She's got tests. You know, she needs a full blown parent here with her through all that.

Yeah, yeah yeah. What did you think of Medieval Times? Is that Brian? Did you go to dinner at all times?

You know, Medieval Times was a little overstimulating for me, given the context of the rest of the week. And look, my, I have a lot of superpowers, but, navigating lots of stimulation for extended periods of time is not one of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I think it was going to I think it was fun because we got to go and do, like dinner, but we didn't have to talk to anyone.

Oh, that is smart, right?

Like, we got to just go and like, there wasn't any, like, what did you think of today and how did it go? And what are you learning? What's on your mind? Right. It was just like, how about that guy stabbing the other guy with that fake sword? That looks pretty cool, right?

I told my daughter that, Medieval Times was possibly happening, and she was like, mom, you got to go. It is the best because she's been with my brother and her cousins and, you know, her aunt and just loved it. So she was so pumped and like, we're so stupid. You have the coolest job, mom. Like, you're going to medieval time.

That's, What other questions that I have for you about how it went? I just went this last week, and Rebecca and I went up to Vancouver to and to a workshop, like a couples relationship conference thing was pretty great. Like, it wasn't at all what what you're trying to create, but it was, John and Julie were there. There were two keynotes. Gottman. But then, Sarah Masters, how do you know her name? Do you know who she is? She's pretty cool.

Say it again.

Sarah. Nasser.

Zada no, I don't I'll.

Introduce you to her. I'll let you go to work later, but, also, remind to Rosalia, do you know who she is? She is.

Isn't that the narcissistic? Yes. Yeah.

She was, but bananas. So good. I was like.

Yeah, I've heard good things. I want to Mr.. At the symposium last month.

I just wanted a senator had her feet and be like, what about this? And what about that? What about the other day. Yeah. So yeah, hoping that I can get her to come on to marriage therapy radio, but we'll see.

Very cool.

But it's it is, it's I am is a little bit like drinking from a firehose. You know, you sit there for an hour. Case. It was just like, I don't know, six hours maybe of just people telling you stuff that is stimulating, in part because it's you care and it it matters to you, you know, and you're like, I want to get this. And then, of course, the stakes were a little bit higher because I do most of that stuff without Rebecca next to me. So there she was. And all these people are giving us relationship advice, and she's like, elbowing me. What about that?

Oh, she was elbowing you. I thought maybe you were going to elbow her.

No, no, no. She's like, she's like, you need to write that down. And and what about this? I was like, okay, like, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Okay. Well, I'm glad the conference is amazing. Congratulations on such a great job of putting it together and making it come off without a hitch. I I'm sure it changed my life.

I think it's in this manifestation. Yeah.

Yeah, of course I, you get to play, right? Like you guys, you're you're going down early. I know you have, like, a lot that you're thinking about, but afterwards you get to rest a little bit or you going to,

Yeah. Here's hoping. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going down. I will go down a few days early to like, I always do that whenever I travel somewhere when I can. And like I say it in a joking way, but, I do have to really kind of manage how overstimulated I get, because deep down, I'm so introverted. So arriving early kind of like, allows me some of that decompression just from traveling with, so, yeah, I'm. I'm arriving early. Will be there with two other people arriving early. So hopefully in the middle of our last minute shopping, planning, doing. We can have a fun dinner or something. Yeah. And then. Yes, afterwards, the team, kind of the core team that's been involved with planning all of this for the last ten months or so.

Yeah.

We're we're going to try to retreat.

Retreat? Yeah. Good.

Yeah. That's the word I'll use.

I was thinking about, like, little things I wanted to ask you, but then I remembered that you don't like small talk.

Well, we could try it out. And if I find the question interesting, I'll let you know.

No, I don't know if it's interesting that I was just thinking about the weirdest thing that I think lately. I have this theory, and I don't know if this is really even just in. This may not go anywhere, which is totally fine, but, I think people's cars should match their house. Like, do you think it's. Do you think do you have that theory or do you care about it at all? What I mean is.

Never once thought about it. But do you mean, like, don't have a nicer car than your house? Like you shouldn't live in a shack and drive a Range Rover kind of thing, right?

Yeah, that's what I mean. It seems weird to me. And it seems like, like an I live in a place where, houses are pretty modest, like pretty modest houses everywhere, like, but there's, you know, Range Rovers and Teslas and BMW and Porsches even out in front of these, like, modest houses. And I'm like, how does that that work? How does that make sense? And I don't know. Do you happen to know what the weirdest thing you think is? Who or the weirdest opinion that you have? That doesn't mean anything at all.

No, not off the top of my head. Trust me, I have them. I do have them. You probably need to ask my husband or I need to just pay more attention because I do think of random stuff for sure. Yeah, I just yeah, for sure about it like that.

Because Rebecca is like that is just like so weird. Like, why do you think that stuff, how does your brain actually work? It's like, I don't know, but yeah. Anyway, we're driving around. I got mad at some of these car in their driveway that the bigger thing is for me, like, I was trying to buy a car, a couple of years ago, and I was down to two, and I literally bought the less fancy one because I didn't think the more fancy one would belong in front of my house. Oh, I know, and now I kind of regret.

Like, a little bit sounds.

I know, I know, I'm a little bit sad about it.

I don't know which is sadder that that you don't think you have a nice house or now you don't have as nice of a car.

I just have a modest house. And, I love my house. The only problem with my house is there's a spot you can stand in my house where from that spot, you can see every other room in my house. Like it's small, about 1700 square feet. And there's just. It's pretty open, so there's not a lot of privacy, but there's no sort of place to go if you want to be by yourself, you could certainly go to your bedroom and close the door. But in that case, every time we go somewhere and we close the door, it feels like you're abandoning or rejecting or shutting off everyone else versus like, if I were just like, go to my office, I would just be in my office and it would be the place that I'm at without signaling to everyone else. I don't touch, you know?

But in our house, you know, you want privacy. You go into a room, you close the door, and, you know, because every room is sort of visible, it's like, nope, that person over there is not accessible, which is mostly my teenage daughter, but whatever. Have you ever watched? Have you seen the movie my old ass?

No.

This is this is what I want to talk about right now. Kind of goes back to your daughter thing. So my old ass. You. No, my old ass is, we just watched the other night. It's a movie about. It's it's sort of a coming of age comedy of some sort. But this girl, 18 years old, takes mushrooms with a couple of her friends. They're in the woods and one friend, like, start dancing. The other one kind of passes out. But her, the experience of her being on mushrooms is that she meets her 39 year old self. So she's sitting there in the woods and all of a sudden she's sitting next to this woman who's played by Aubrey Plaza. If you know that I do, of course. And she.

Plaza.

Yeah. And she is, now she starts this conversation with her like 18 and 39, and they're having to navigate the relationship they have with each other. And this genre is fascinating to me, in part because in a lot of the work that you and I will do from time to time around the child stuff, you know, like, what does it mean to be in conversation with, right? Other versions of you? And there's a bunch of movies like this that I'm into. Did you ever see Disney's The Kid with Bruce Willis?

Oh my gosh, so long ago that I couldn't. Yeah, probably have a very good conversation, but I know.

What every time talking about I cannot watch that movie without like, just falling apart. But then the other one is, Rocketman, the Elton John biopic. Do you see that one?

I haven't seen that one yet.

It's so good. Like it is. So it's so good from a, from a, like a relational life point of view, particularly when it comes to the relationship with the adaptive child, because Elton John, of course, didn't fit in his own skin as a kid, and his dad let him know, right? Gay musician, blah, blah, blah. And then he grows up and becomes a superstar and has a really hard time reconciling the the origin story. Anyway, I think I want to pick your brain a little bit and hear how you understand this. The inner child work or the adept, like kind of the parenting work. And then I have this question, about it that actually goes back to what you said a little bit earlier. So I know that's a lot of stuff, but I think what I really want to know is, like, as you think about re parenting, or do you think about the parts that we're trying to grapple with?

How do you how do you conceptualize it for yourself, for your clients or just in general, and interested to know,

How do I conceptualize re parenting your inner child.

Or like, what's it for? Why does it work? What is it about? How do you help people? Kind of wrap their heads around the sort of metaphysics of it almost, you know?

Yeah. You know, I think basically the idea of an inner child is like a historical part of you that is still present in that it influences how you see the world around you. You know, I talk a lot with clients about history, colored glasses. You know, you see the world through your own history, right? So an example I use often is if you grew up in a house with happy yelling, right, like cheering, celebrating lots of laughter or funny stories. Big, I love you. Then when you experience yelling now through those history, colored glasses, it will be fine. It will sound jovial, celebratory, warm. But if you experience yelling as a child, that is mean, hurtful, scary, overwhelming, traumatic, violent, then when you're in the presence of yelling now it will be yelling. Yeah, I think so. It'll it it'll be hard to discern.

It's not that you won't be able to, but I think it will be less pleasant for you. Let's say. So that's an example of like how those historical parts of yourself influence what you see, what you experience, what you think. Even now. And so the opportunity to repair that is an opportunity to repair that, to correct that and, and to heal that in a very real experiential way. And that might be, you know, some people like things that are more concrete. So if you really need to pull out a picture of yourself from a certain age, some people do well with like visuals of, of picturing themselves. I think there's a number of ways you can actually, you know, practice that. But to me, that's the idea of it conceptually.

Yeah.

Dealing with those historical messages, historical experiences to to try to help correct and and get more agency and power back over how you experience things. Now that would be the purpose of it.

Yeah. I don't know where I'm going to. I wrote it down. History, color glasses. I'm going to start using it forever because it's it's actually a phrase I've been in search of. So thank you. Yeah. For that because I think it makes a lot of sense, I guess. I guess one thing we might have done is kind of skip the lead when how would you actually even define or explain to, like, the man on the street, the idea of parenting? Like, what is the what is it? You know.

It is becoming the parent you deserved to have as a kid.

To the kid that you.

That historic part of yourself that is, still there and still maybe not still but now it's still there and is now causing some real challenges and difficulties and problems in your life. And it comes from, you know, not having the parenting you deserved. Now, I don't mean to paint parents or caregivers as monsters. That's not what I mean. I think the vast majority of parents and caregivers are doing the best job that they can and have good intentions, and that doesn't mean, you know, you always got what you needed or deserved to have growing up. But now with the idea of parenting, you can become the parent to yourself that you always deserved to have.

Yeah. That's wild. So so when we do it with, clients, it it's meant to evoke the sense that the messages that you internalized or that you have committed to you through your history, colored glasses get to be reframed by perspective, sort of the knowing what I know now kind of thing.

Reframed, rewritten, recreated. And, are better suited to what you need. And again, I'm operating under the assumption that most parents really, truly, I believe this. Most parents are doing the best job that they can. Yeah. And you just don't always understand your child, you know? I mean, you're a parent. I'm sure that makes sense to you. Like you are experiencing your child as you. Right. And through your own history, colored glasses. And it's so it's, I think, impossible to be perfectly attuned to that all the time and to, to do the right thing all the time. And so you now through your own like self-awareness, your own therapy, your own wisdom can like fill in those gaps and can go and do that and be that in a way that is very consistent and reliable, and it sets you up not only to have more.

I think, empowerment over yourself and situations, but to really, truly experience things differently. And maybe going back to that example, maybe now I'm able to look and listen to yelling with more nuance, and you can actually be in some of the fun of it and find it pleasant and exciting. So yeah, I guess that's how I would explain it.

Yeah. So here's the twist on it that that is new to me, actually, after watching my old ass, which is I think that there's a, I wish I knew how to set this question up better than I'm currently able to. There's this presumption that the older, wiser version of us has something to offer the wounded part of us that is our energy, nature, or whatever. The story that you told about this morning is that there's a hold your daughter, 1112.

She just turned 13, like, all right.

So so your teenager offered you something out of wisdom that she had access to, that you did not have access to. And like, there's something that our younger selves has to offer us, as well as our older selves having to offer our younger self like, this is the part that is intriguing to me, to mess around with, because I've said a lot of times, like if I knew knowing what I know now, what would I go tell my younger self? But do you think that there's something your younger self has to tell you now that you could afford to kind of listen to and relisten to?

Oh, I'm sure, yeah. Absolutely.

And I don't know, like, I'm not sure what my younger self has to offer me. I'm just I'm wondering kind of what possibilities are there because twice now in the last 48 hours, both with the comment you made about your own kid and then this movie, which is, you know, kind of about that, I'm like, What? What rich building do I may need from, from this, other version that set apart?

Well, maybe looking at it as wisdom is not the right way to look at it, but maybe it's like perspective. Like, what's the perspective that you had as a kid that you could benefit from having? Again, even for a day? You know, when you think of it that way, does anything come to mind?

How.

Did little Zacky look at the world that your old.

Ass? Yeah.

Could benefit to look at from that perspective?

Yeah. I mean, I haven't done that work. Like, I don't know, I don't know if I have thought about it very much at all. Like, fortunately today I get to go hang out with my own therapist, so I'm excited about that. She she is, she's the best. And it's, well, not the best thing that's ever happened to me in the last five years, but certainly up there. But yeah, I'll be exploring that question, too, I think. I don't really know what I'm in search of. Like as a 51 year old, I don't really know what I'm longing for, except probably something that feels more carefree and more, sort of un fettered or unburdened, perhaps, you know, like there's just, maybe stuff coming in from every direction that makes me want to go, heavy, heavy, heavy.

And maybe the younger part of me needs to be able to go, okay, whatever. Like, don't don't worry about the heavy stuff. Just like, don't you have better, bigger fish to fry? Like, whether or not you can, you know, get Julia to smile at you this afternoon. I don't know what it's like. So, I don't know, I just, I, I'm obsessed right now with kind of parts, like, all the different parts of us and I think I've been in kind of a one track mind about finding the best part and having that part govern. Yeah, the rest versus appreciating that maybe all the parts have something reasonable to offer. The whole, you know.

Well, sure. I mean, it's it's like the idea that, you know, the beauty and the benefit of the light and the dark, you know, and can anything be light if there is no dark, you know. Yeah. I don't know. I, you know, when I think about it, I hope this isn't super depressing because it kind of does in my own head, but I think if I could get my younger self perspective, it would. It might also be a little heavy and burdened and worried. And I think the benefit of that is to go, you know what? And stop waiting for things around you to be light and easy and carefree, because that just doesn't happen. Like you've been looking at the world this way even since you were a little kid. This is an inside job.

Like. Take that perspective that you've been looking at stuff this way for that long, waiting for things around you to shift. The shift has to happen internally. I think that might be. Yeah, like kind of a woe thing that my younger self could teach me.

Yeah. I'm wondering, I'm like, I feel like one of the things that I'm working on a lot in my own therapy, both personally and then with my clients, is something like integration, like where there's sort of like there's all these parts and they're in their different places working on their different things, consciously, unconsciously, whatever. And there's something like integration that's missing where they're just sort of all get to be in the same place and hang out and kind of go, okay, this is me. Like, this is this is all of that here. So and, you know, honestly working on the presentation that I gave a couple weeks ago and Orlando.

Yeah, the one that smashed.

Has yeah has stirred a lot of that up for me because you're having to kind of I'm having to kind of go, what do I actually really think about this stuff. Yeah. Versus you know, what do, you know, what is the thing I get to sort of repeat or regurgitate because I'm just an educator, you know? Anyway, that's where my that's where my head's been at about it, and. Wow.

That's a lot.

Yeah, it is a lot. But I like being able to talk to smart people about it. So thanks for doing that. And then the other thing I wanted to just check in about was, I was thinking about the first two recordings we did, which at this point, again, were several weeks ago. We sort of did a survey of the five winning strategies inside of Morality. We talked on the first week about how how much you in particular like cherishing as a skill or as a tool. And then I think last time we talked a little bit more on the on kind of the advocate for what you want, sort of courage side, but I felt like it would be important for us to hit, hit them all officially just to make sure that we covered them.

So, and I think I can remember them all this time, because remember the first time you were like, yeah, you're a little mnemonic. It's that's really great that it doesn't work for you. Yeah, but the five winning strategies are inside of the model, kind of the relational, moves that you can make to, improve intimacy inside of the relationship that fear me to say. Okay. And the first one is advocating for what you want, which is what we talked about last time. There's one that we label that's labeled speak to make things better. One that is, listen and listen for understanding.

Right. Listen.

Respond and listen to understand. Respond with generosity that I say speak to make things better already.

Yes.

Speak to make things better. Advocate for what you want. Listen to understand. Speak to make things better. Respond with generosity. And then the last one is chasing. So I think it's those middle three that we haven't quite touched on. And I wonder about your thoughts, your perspective on this particularly, it's sort of that it's sort of the ones that are kind of right in the communication moment. The communication moment is listening to understand, responding with generosity, speaking to make things better. How do you I don't know, wander around that a little bit and let's see what what comes up for us.

I think speak to make things better is huge. Okay. I don't think that's often where we're coming from. I think we speak to make ourselves known which is not always a bad thing. I think that's a little like advocating for what you want. You need to know what I need, what I feel. But we speak to make ourselves known. Sometimes we speak to defend, protect. Take care of our own egos. We speak to do a lot of things other than make something better. May we speak to discharge pain, right. Like to take all this yuck that I'm feeling inside. And let me just put it on you by giving you a piece of my mind. So I think, and, you know, even when my daughter was having her moment this morning, I was really thinking of that of like, okay, don't lecture, you know, don't be in your head like, what is something you could say to her right now that might make things better?

And then I let that guide me. So so I know you said those are like the moves. I mean there's a million moves you could make in any one of these strategies. Right. But it it to me it's like a guidepost like kind of guiding you in that direction. And then listening with generosity or sorry, listening to understand. So after I said whatever I said as she's speaking back to me, I'm not checking to see. Oh, did what I say help? What am I going to say next? You know, I'm just trying to understand what she's telling me as best as I can from, like, her point of view. Not my adult point of view. I'm like, oh, come on, that's not that big of a deal. Or, you know, you're 13. Like, what do you know? You know, it's like, no, this is real. This is big. Let me try to understand it as best I can from her point of view.

Gotcha.

Because that's that really is that intimate connection right. Is it Thomas Uber that says intimacy? Intimacy is. I feel you feeling me.

I never that.

I feel you feeling me. So I kind of have that in the back of my mind too. Like whatever I'm doing or saying in response to her, she's going to feel that, she's going to feel me feeling her and use that to tell herself a story. You know, I'm all alone or I'm stressing my mom out, or I'm making her late or like she's here, you know, like she's trying. She's with me. I'm not alone. So the the speak to make things better and listen to understand. I think is part of that that intimacy. How's that. So what are your thoughts.

I'm into it I think I think the one that sneaks up on people the most, at least in my practice, is that exactly speak to make things better. I don't think we have that filter very often. I think it's a, I think there's a generalized civility that people, most people bring to most interactions. They just because we're not we're not actively going out in the moment and trying to destroy most of us aren't anyway. Like we're not actively trying to ruin this relationship or that relationship. But I don't think we're, I also don't think we're actively trying to go out and literally make things better. And, you know, me and my kind of commitment to alliteration, I put I've at assigned the C word to that, which is creativity. I just don't think most of us are very creative when it comes to the like, the options that we have to make things better.

And so when when I guess it's funny, thinking about like the options that I had to say, I have to teach some of my clients what a Rolodex is like, do you know what?

Know what a Rolodex is?

My kids have the. Your kid doesn't know what a Rolodex is like. It's like, oh, God. No. But just, you know, there's options that you can sort of scroll through and you pick out the ones. And I think most of us are scrolling through with history colored glasses to kind of go, oh, I know that card. I can pull that card at that card. It's got a lot of yeah.

Whether well, and because of the way our brains work, our rolodexes are quite small. They don't give us a lot of options in those intense moments, because there's not the time, according to our, like, the part of our brain that's under threat and freaking out is like, no, we got to figure something out quick. What's the first one? What's the last one I use? You know, what's the one that worked the best?

Yeah. So, I saw a guy in my. He. I called him on it speaking to make things better a little bit ago because he she was talking to me about whatever she was talking about, and she said, she was talking about him. He. And then he does this, and he does this, and he turned, he goes, I'm in the room. You can use my name. And I was like, what are you trying to accomplish there? Like what you're what's your jam with that interjection. Like, because we were getting some good data and but you had to you had to like flag this pronoun usage situation. Like what's going on there because it wasn't speaking to make things better. It was actually speaking to derail is actually speaking to to, you know, correct.

Or and again, I don't think he was trying to I don't think he was trying to be malicious. But it definitely there was that skill that was little that was missing. So, I like it as a conceptually. I like it as a target speaking to make things better. And then of course, listening to understand most people aren't. Most people are listening to weight until the other person stops talking so they can have their turn, you know, and I literally have to.

Correct defend ourselves, like, you know, I need to speak my truth now, you know, it's like, oh, boy, you know, then there's no understanding anywhere, ever.

Yeah. I literally teach people to say, I don't understand. I think I understand, and part of me wants to make it commit to this understanding that I have maybe through my history, colored glasses. But I don't I don't think I understand. So can you tell me what it is that. Can you tell me one more time what it is that you mean, or how that works? I don't know, man. It's you sort of, sort of like think or hope or expect that people have, that they're farther along, but, and it's while to give them lenses. The other thing is, I've been looking for this word that I can't find, which is, you know, we want to talk to people about responding with generosity or being generous as opposed to one being greedy.

I don't think that's the word I want. I want this other word. And it's not even it's not even selfish, I don't think. But most people aren't generous in their responses because they are. What do you think?

I think self-focused is a good word, and I see that differently than selfish.

And say self ish. It's like yourself, fish. You know.

I get it. Selfish to me implies I want all the things. I want it all for me. Kind of like a form of greed. Self-focused, just in my opinion, means I am limited by how I see it in my body, you know, through my history. Colored glasses. I'm just so, the, for example, you know, if if my husband is just being cranky, you know, a way to respond generously to that is to give him some space, you know, not come down like a ton of bricks on him. But if I'm self-focused, I'm more concerned with how his mood is impacting me. I don't like the way it feels. I'm being disrespected, so I need to say something about it. And that is limiting the ways that I could be generous for him. Because I'm self-focused. I'm about mini me in that moment and generosity, I think, is about more than just like giving.

It's it's also holding that other perspective in the room, holding that someone else is having you know, their own life experience right now and doing your best to tune in to that, tend to it, or at the very least, just not absorb it.

What's interesting about what you just said is it's right there. Like if he needs some space or he needs he's being cranky, maybe I need to give him some space than work give like I'm getting this generous to give my space or give the benefit of the doubt or, you know, and I think that is, that's what I'm chasing. But again, we're sort of wired in this way. That is self-focused. Yeah.

Because it's a holistic society that we live in, you know, it's a very like that's our culture. We, you know, the, the U.S., a lot of the Western world, Eurocentric. It's not like community focused, pluralistic, family focused. It's very individually focused. So we are taught to concern ourselves with what this is like for me and to go after what we need, what we want. And we don't think systemically.

Yeah, that is of course true culturally. And also just I was explaining it to a client to the hey, I go, look, if you don't if you're not interested in examining like the cultural part of it, just appreciate that, like biologically, we're selfish, like you are. You are trying to get oxygen into your body, like your body is concerned about keeping you alive and safe. And you will you're you're clinging like you're imperative is to protect yourself. Which, of course, everything flows out of after that, but,

Yes. And can I, can I, I get what you're saying. And yet we are still wired to connect. We are wired for connection. Our biology, which.

Means there's unnecessary tension.

Potentially. But our our literal survival also depends on being connected to others.

Yeah.

So, yes, we need oxygen, and we also need to be in community. You know, this is why babies will not survive. If they don't, they'll have oxygen. They'll even have food. And like, the nourishment they need biologically. But if they don't have skin to skin contact, if they are not held and co regulated, they won't survive.

Yeah.

So maybe, you know, we really do have to kind of not push aside that cultural piece of it.

No, I don't mean to push it aside at all. I mean just to say, like, of course there's a cultural piece and there's also this imperative piece. And even as you're describing that, like the imperative to feel connected, it makes me wonder if from the minute we're born, regardless of what environment we're in, what country we're in, what, you know, status we're in, are we automatically competing with ourselves to like, stay independent and and alive? You know, looking out for number one and absolutely desperate for and in need of comfort and connection and skin on skin contact. Like, does that happen in like second one, you know, and then do we somehow evolve and nurture that as we grow? I mean, I have that experience every single day where I'm like looking out for number one. And also I need to be connected to other people and maybe that's just part of my human evolution.

Maybe, I don't know, but I just I think there's a rhetoric out there that if if someone else has something, then that means I have less.

Yeah.

And I don't know that that's a good or even accurate way of looking at it. You know, it's like when someone else, when you think systemically, when someone has more somehow, some way we all benefit. Maybe not in the exact same way. Right. But we still benefit. And, I don't have to do it all if I think systemically, you know, the system, there's a shared responsibility, there's a shared, I don't know, goal intention.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, but in order to stay, connected in ways that we, we want on a daily basis with the people that we love, we need to learn how to advocate for what we want. Yep. Ask for what we need. You know, be courageous in that regard and try and invite people to, know how to love us. I think there's a difference there between desire and demand, like learning how to express your desire versus require other people to love you and that you want to. That's just the basics skill that human beings need to have. Then the next three go into this kind of direct communication style. I think those are the three that we talked about today, which is learning how to listen for understanding, speak to make things better and respond with generosity.

And in the actual conversation that we're having, which means we have to take our history colored glasses and put them up on top of our head and get creative, get it, get interested in the new way of thinking and the new way of being, and really suspend this self focus long enough to open up space for connection with the other. That reasonable way to put that?

Yeah, I like that.

And then there's cherishing, which is literally the act of finding out how your partner, wants to be loved and and loving them in that way out of a space of, of gratitude.

Yeah. And the the whole like, line of it is cherish what you have so that can be like an expression of appreciation, like doing things for the other person. And it can also be an act of receiving, like, you know what, they were able to do this much of my request today, and I receive that and I cherish it. And I am, you know, grateful or whatever. So so there's that part to that. I'm not going to get it totally, perfectly, exactly by my design. But yeah, you know, I'm getting I'm getting something.

Yeah.

I think it allows people to feel good in the process too. Right. Because especially as you're learning new relational skills, like you, you might do 20% of it, right? And it allows us to celebrate that 20% along the way, even though we're not all the way there. And we're very result focused, like we want that finish line, this lets us appreciate the journey along the way, too. I think.

Yeah, I mean, I have a question for you. At the top of our first episode, I said, if we knocked this out of the park and we get we get what we want out of it, what is that? And you said you remember what you said.

I remember saying, have fun.

That's what I remember.

Yeah.

Did you have fun?

Yeah, I think so. Finally. And that's not on you. That's on me. Yeah. Because I'm just so, like, am I doing this right? Like, yeah, this was Zach was, you know, hoping for like. Yeah. So I, you know, I'm in my own head about a lot of stuff. Yes. I remember saying fun and maybe I think something about offering something to the people who listen that feels inspiring or uplifting or relatable or something.

I think that definitely happened. Because minimally, I learned something like I was inspired and I learned, so I'm grateful for that. And I just want to, acknowledge that for you. And thank you for coming on and playing co-host with me for a little while. I do want to know if it was more or less fun than medieval times.

Way more fun for my little introverted self. Like this kind of stuff is is fun. Way back. Did we accomplish what you would have hoped to get out?

So, like, listen, I, this is a new era of married separated for me, and I'm excited to kind of, sort of spread my wings a little bit, stretch myself into different conversations with different kinds of people. It was really easy, very, very easy to do, you know, to hop on every Thursday and talk to Laura and just kind of, you know, do whatever we did. And I think easy sometimes is problematic, right? Easy sometimes. Does it stretch you? It doesn't make you think. It doesn't make you. It doesn't let you prepare and doesn't require you to prepare. And so for me to kind of, be stretching and learning and again, I am I love learning from you and others. And so 100% I got what I needed.

And, yeah, this is exciting times. And, I'm really glad that I got to spend time with you a couple weeks ago, which we'll actually get to do in a couple weeks. I love how time travel works when it comes to, like, guessing or whatnot, but, but yeah, thank you, Desiree, for, for, hanging out with me in this context.

And if someone.