Get Off the Couch. That's Where Life Happens w/Peter & Luisa Csathy

Yeah, thanks for coming on with me. It's Peter and Luisa.

Yeah. Yes.

How do you say your last name?

Chadi.

Chadi.

I think I would try to get that one.

Yeah, I should have.

I would have done it a hundred times and I wouldn't have gotten close. Chadi.

And I married into that.

Yes, yes, you did. You had an easy one.

Well, what is it? What's the origin of that name?

It's Hungarian.

Right on.

Nobody comes close to guessing.

And you have to spell it every single time.

Every time. It's throughout my life. You can imagine.

Right on.

You can't just spell it. You have to say. say C as in cat, S like Sam. You know, you got to go through that whole thing because if you just say C-S-A-T-H-Y, they get it wrong.

Yeah, but you know what the beauty is? We're the only ones in the world.

You're the only Luisa Chadi for sure in the world.

It's easy to find you on Google, I guess, then. Like, as long as we know how to spell it, we, we're pretty sure we have the right guy.

Yeah, I think so. Yo-ho!

I go to the gym with a guy who, who his claim to fame is that his name is ungoogleable because his name is Paul Stanley, which is the the guitarist for the band Kiss. Yeah.

Oh yeah.

So every time somebody Googles his name, he get, they get all these like 100 leads on the, on the rock and roll guy. So.

Yeah, no, that's a tough one.

You're a, you're a music guy. You have a, like a whole thing and you're like, like music is part of your, your core identity. Is that right?

Oh yeah, absolutely. Like music is the soul of both personal life and professional life from the very beginning. And, and it was the, That's how we met each other. There's a music story there.

I want to hear about it.

Music is one of the secrets that I write about in The 10 Secrets. So it's fundamental to our lives for sure.

Tell me about how you met.

Do you want to or should I?

So we met when I was young.

I wasn't that old.

Still in school. I was studying at USC. I had kind of a circuitous education. I was in Europe for various years. My family grew up there and went to school there. And then I was finishing up at USC and working at a place in Beverly Hills called Mezzaluna, which on a Tuesday night was kind of the place to be. And I was hostessing there. And you had kind of the red velvet rope with the list, and I was manning the list. And it was one of those places. And And he came in with his clients. He was working with a group called NWA.

Yeah, and there's a funny story, so I'll tell you about that too.

Yeah. Okay. So yeah, we always tell our kids, you know, when that film came out, the— what was it called?

Straight Outta Compton.

Straight Outta Compton. Yeah.

Like, you guys are here because of them.

Yeah, yeah. NWA led us to love and to you kids. But anyhow, go ahead.

Yeah, so I mean, he writes about it in the little— in the book that he wrote, but— Yeah. But yeah, he happened to get off the couch that night and reluctantly went to meet with his client, and I was hostessing. And interestingly, wasn't really ever open to giving my number out or doing anything like that. And I don't know, sometimes the stars just— you have this kind of, something tells you that Yeah. You know, you need to make a move. I think the same thing happened with him. And so that was kind of an interesting, you know, an interesting story of how we met. And then we had our first dinner, like, you know, about a week later maybe, or several days later.

Yeah.

And, you know—

Funny story there too.

23 at the time. Again, really kind of living my life, having fun, not looking for anything. I certainly wasn't looking for you know, anything major. And I called my girlfriend after that dinner and I told her, I said, I met the man I'm gonna marry. And I was just, you know, it was, it was crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, Zach, and I wanna go back just a second on that. Sure.

Sure.

Because the whole story is so crazy. And this is really kind of a fundamental thing that I, we tell our kids too about how life works. She mentioned getting off the couch. And that night, you know, as she was saying, I was representing N.W.A., my biggest client at the time. And this was during the height of their, you know, crazy, notorious days.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was a Tuesday night, and I was just insanely overworked and exhausted. But I did— I got off the couch. I went. So I sat down with their manager, Jerry Heller, who was notorious, and Suge Knight, if you know that name, Suge Knight, he's, you know, he's notorious in rap circles, and he was bodyguarding Jerry. So as we're sitting down in this hot little restaurant that night, we have Suge Knight standing kind of towering over us. So the whole scene is wild. And, you know, I had had a cocktail or two, so I got the courage when I saw this, you know, this, this vision walk next to me. And I got up and I had the courage to ask for her number. As she said, mm-hmm, she kind of blew me off. But because I'm a Midwesterner and a very eager guy, I call— I didn't wait several days. I called that number the next day and she said, yeah, yeah, call me over the weekend. You know, it was a continued kind of blowoff. And then I called over the weekend because I'm, again, I follow up on these things. And she didn't, she didn't pick up that call, but I left a voicemail that she heard and she thought was cute. And that led to everything. So the point of the story is that And it's what I call active serendipity, which is a central theme throughout my book and what we teach our kids and the way we live our lives.

Yeah.

Active serendipity to us is that I don't believe in luck. And I don't necessarily believe that things are preordained in the stars. So I like coined this term, what I call active serendipity, is that you can put your, by taking action, you can put yourself, inject yourself into the bloodstream of life. To open up possibilities that can happen to you. And because that night I decided to get off my couch, I injected myself into the world where I met Luisa. And here we are 33 years later, 30 years married, and none of this would've happened. Uh, this couch we're sitting on, where we're living, the 2 kids we have, none of it would've happened but for that decision to get off the couch.

Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty wild. Luisa, do you know like what was new or unique for you? Like what was the variable that made you accept this phone number that you didn't typically accept? Or like what was that about for you as far as you know?

You know, I don't know. To be honest, I don't remember. I think he just, well, it was circumstances. And I know that my mom had kind of, I also had a tight, you know, I mean, I was having a lot of fun. I had, you know, gotten out of relationships and I was just kind of not really focusing. I mean, I was young and I think my mom had had to tell you, you have to— because I had a few people surrounding me and I just— Okay. Yeah. Well, you shoot a few away, but just like at 23, it was a different time than it is now for sure. And And I just felt, I don't know, it was just like, it was just a, I don't know. It wasn't something I would typically do to give my number. So I don't know if it's like there's somebody just telling you.

Is any part of it active serendipity on your behalf? Was there some version of that same theme that was present for you in that moment?

Yeah, I mean, 100%. I think Obviously going out and having our first dinner together. And I was kind of at that age trying to get a free dinner out of it. I had a paper to write for school and I'm like, I'll get a free dinner out of it. He seems cute. I remember, I think he was cute. I couldn't really remember. It's strange. And then the moment he showed up at my door, I had no makeup on. I had thrown on a cashmere sweater and And I remember—

You weren't worried about it at all. You were like—

No, I was just like, yeah, you know. And, uh, and he showed up at my door.

Call me over the weekend? Are we in like Landline?

Yeah, she was very, she was very much not intentionally that way. This is the way Luisa is, like, you know. So it's not like you're— she's a game player, but—

But, but he showed up at my door and I, I remember going, oh wow, he's really cute. He's, he's adorable. And then, you know, we went out to dinner and I think I just was so taken by, you know, we had the same values, you know, and growing up in LA, there's, you know, it's not—

Yeah.

Not easy to find somebody, you know, of quality like that. And he was talking about his family and his European roots, and I don't know, I was just like, wow, this guy is really exceptional. He's, you know, he's attractive, he's intelligent, he's got great values. And, you know, even at that age, I, I mean, I, you know, I was in a very— an older 23. I had kind of, you know, lived.

How far apart are you? How far— are you the same age? Are you—

No, I'm 29, or I was 29 at the time.

Yeah.

So I'm 6 years older.

Yeah.

Yeah. And like, similarly, Zach, that when I asked her out, I wasn't thinking of anything long-term, of course. But, you know, she mentioned this dinner that we had, and 2 weeks later we go on a weekend ski trip to Mammoth Mountain, which is about a 5-hour drive. And the rest is history from that moment on. You know, a couple months later—

I was gonna say, when did you find out that she, that you were the man she was gonna marry? She knew at dinner. When did you find out?

I, I, I didn't know at dinner. For sure. I, I knew it was a great dinner. Like, I had a good time and everything, but, and we immediately started having a couple dates. But I remember my mom was in town and, you know, we're very family-oriented people and my mom was living alone. And so like coming out to visit her boys from Minneapolis, and I was living in Los Angeles, of course, I'm devoted to my mother. And so essentially the week was off. Yeah. So between those 2 weeks, one of those 2 weeks was taken. And once my mother went back on the flight, then I called her like from the airport and said, okay, I'm free. And so we had like a, a couple dates and then we decided to go on a ski trip. And then the rest was history. So I think from the ski trip, from that time forward, we were definitely only thinking about each other. We never looked back. I certainly never looked back. And then she moved into where I was living, just a And then we bought a house together like 8 months later.

Oh, geez. Right on. Certainly you weren't living in this sort of the Straight Outta Compton lifestyle. Like, Luisa, were you starstruck in any way or did you care? Was it just like, was this incidental facts? I mean, you probably saw lots of famous people come through your restaurant, but like, what was, how did you navigate kind of the, kind of the, the noise perhaps around?

I mean, I didn't—

Around the relationship.

The whole NWA thing. I mean, it's kind of a fun story to tell now, but—

Yeah.

And I, you know, I grew up in LA. I grew up, my grandparents My grandmother was a big actress and I was surrounded by—

2-time Academy Award-winning best actress.

Yeah. A long time ago. Who was that? Oh, you wouldn't know. She was in the late '30s. Luise Rainer. She was the first to win best actress back to back.

So The Good Earth and The Great Ziegfeld.

Yeah.

All right. That's a big deal.

Yeah. So it wasn't— no, no, no. It wasn't that. I just, I don't know. You meet someone who's pure of heart and just good kind of European Midwestern values. I mean, just somebody who, you know, we just clicked. I mean, we just really, we clicked immediately. And it's rare, I think, but you know, when you know, you know, when you kind of have found your person. And that's not to say that, you know, we've had, I mean, we've been together now 30 years. You know, obviously I was very young when I met him, but, you know, I'm an old soul.

So shared values, I think, is a really central thing. You know, that we, family is fundamental to both of us. Just like without, it goes without saying if there's a family crisis of any kind, you know, as I write about, the answer is an automatic yes. You know, no matter what, you drop everything. So shared, shared value. We have a shared interest in trusting our guts and making, making spontaneous decisions on very big things.

Mm-hmm.

Like whether it's buying a house, like we, and I'm, I'm an analytical guy. You know, I, I was, I started off my career as a lawyer, so I'm analytical in those kinds of ways. But when it comes to some of the biggest decisions, we definitely go with our gut and our gut has proven to be right, even though it's been very risky several times. So we share that. We definitely share the sense of adventure and, uh, and Luisa, has always been very open to the possibilities that life doesn't— isn't perfect. In fact, she, like, always reminds me that life isn't perfect.

Life is messy.

Yeah, life is messy. And Luisa can really roll with the punches. It doesn't mean it doesn't impact her, but she's very good at understanding that life is messy and just dealing with it. with, with some real internal courage. So not, it's hard to explain, but she has enabled me to become more that way because Luisa's very kind of stoic in a fun stoic.

Sure.

And I've become more stoic over time. Well, but I'm, you know, a Hungarian and I'm very intense and excitable and all that kind of thing. So I've kind of, Brought down the decibels a little bit over time.

But I think that, like, if I were to pinpoint, like, the secret to a really successful relationship, I think it really is kind of a yin and yang. Because, like, I'm super ADHD. I'm like, you know, my interests tend to be— I'm very into nature and grounding, outdoorsy, and, you know, just Nature heals me. I love, you know, I mean, we're both into sports and music. He's— but, but he also gives me that sense of like, you know, he's very—

All over the place?

You're all over the place. But also, but he's— he gives me kind of that leveler a little bit. I think we both level each other in a way that's so important in a relationship. It's not to say that it's easy. I mean, it's not easy to find someone like that, but But it's interesting, and I don't know what your thoughts are on, obviously you've met with, you're an expert in all of this, but what do you find? I feel like that yin and yang really, really is kind of the secret to growing together and kind of leveling each other out.

Yeah, and fleshing each other out.

Yeah, I mean, I have all kinds of theories, of course. I think what you're bumping up against is something that When people ask me like, what's the secret or how does a relationship work? I always say the same thing, which is you gotta have 2 adults, you gotta have 2 functional adults. So part of what you guys are grappling with is that you sort of raised each other. You sort of became adults together. We

still are.

But then those 2 adults have to do, those 2 adults have to do more things that their partner likes and fewer things that their partner doesn't like. And in order to do that, you gotta be curious and you gotta learn and you gotta adapt and you gotta adopt different strategies that maybe you wouldn't do before. And I think, you know, people aren't the same. Yin and yang, they complement each other because they are in a dance. And if you had 2 people that were exactly the same or 2 people who were unwilling to dance, then you don't have the foundation of a relationship. And so it sounds like you— I'm accidentally using some words and I'm keying on some words that I want to hear more about from the 2 of you, which is You know, I talked about with NWA, was there a lot of noise around the celebrity? Not so much. You talked to Peter about the idea of decibels, and now I'm talking about dancing, and you've hinted that music is part of the philosophy or part of the way that you think about doing relationship. I wonder what parallels you've drawn that make it obvious. And then I wanna tell you a story about Ben Folds, if you knew who Ben Folds is, because—

Yeah, of course I do. Of course. You can, I want you to try to stump me, Zach, when it comes to music. Like music, when it comes to music, like my, my depth of from across genres is, it's quite deep because—

Well, I don't know if I can do it. I'm pretty much a, I like white guys with guitars. I like, you know, troubadours who sing songs about—

Well, I love that too.

Let me tell you about this story, 'cause I think this is the neighborhood that we're in, which is I saw him lead the Seattle Symphony Orchestra, which he does. Like, he'll go on tour and he plays a bunch of pop songs, his songs, and then he's interacting with the orchestra and he's, talking in musical language that I don't understand, but he got up after he was done, and what he was saying was, you have all these professional musicians up here, and the process of navigating through a composition, their job is to resolve di— and I heard him say that, and I thought he was going to say resolve difference, resolve differences, but what he said was, their job is to resolve dissonance.

Mm-hmm.

And so, when you're talking about yin and yang and connecting with one another. What we're really talking about is how do we just, 2 people who are vibrating at different frequencies, just sort of come together to resolve not that they have to do one or the other, but that they have to find that thing in the middle somewhere.

Yeah.

That is in fact the result of doing relational work. So that's the closest I've come to sort of using music to describe relationships, but I wanna hear about how you guys do it.

That's a really interesting example. It's kind of like jazz, right?

Mm-hmm. Sure.

You know, you can, you know how to play your instrument, but jazz doesn't work unless you can improvise together. And that's the beauty of great jazz is that these great musicians who can play individually find a way to, in real time, find a way to create something even greater than themselves. Right. And I, I think that that's an interesting way to think about relationships and, um, Music is definitely a—

By the way, he's not even a jazz lover. He's more of a rock and roll lover.

Yeah. And acoustic.

Acoustic, yeah.

And dance. We just came back from Head Trip in the desert. And so like, you know, we were—

I love that.

EDM. I went to Coachella for the first time and we've been—

Well, several years ago because you've been to several Coachellas.

A long time ago. And Riffy's still going.

That's amazing. I've been to 17, but, and I'm the oldest guy at Head Trip, but I don't care because I'm authentically into it. And, you know, In any event, so music in our lives. So first I'll talk about, for myself, music is my therapy. And so I'm this very intense guy and I am most in the moment when I'm in a song, then I'm really present. So like, to me, it's truly meta in a very big way. And so like one of my 10 chapters, like I said, is bring music into your life and, you know, immerse yourself in music. Yeah, I love that. And yeah, music is, from a family bonding standpoint, it, it addresses many things because again, like a theme in, in my book is that I'm this tech guy. That's what I'm best known for being, this media tech guy. Yeah. But one of the central themes is analog living. And analog living is getting your head up from your mobile phones, like head down into the real world and into the real world. Bring music as part of that. So like music concerts, music festivals, communal, like communing with other people is so important. And that has been the way that we have so many concerts on the calendar for us right now. We're going to see Gorillaz this weekend with our kids in LA because we've seen the Gorillaz together before and it's part of our lore. And our kids then bring their musical tastes into our lives and we commingle them. And so it's a bonding thing for us. It has always been a central like bonding element for our, our kids as we've raised them. And so it is a central part of our lives and our lore and has led to such a depth of our relationships together. And so music is this magical elixir that has always just been central, but it's like passing generations into bringing all— like creating this glue that creates this bond. That is also wonderfully— it's wonderful to celebrate great art and to also support musicians and all of that.

And it's interesting because I never— I wasn't— I mean, obviously I listened to music growing up. I mean, everybody loves music, but it was never kind of a core part of my life. And I have to say that without his love of music and creating that in our kids and It really has been such an additive to my life too, you know, and just, I mean, I always say I just follow, I just go, I'm just told where to go and where to be. And it really just has been such a beautiful, it's been such a, you know, it's added so much to our lives as a family and to my life. I would never have, you know, developed this kind of, this love of, I mean, and it's the community of it all and it's the energy of it all.

And it's the family and it's the Good old-fashioned just spending time together, you know, so focusing on each other, like, you know, the buying of the tickets and deciding which ones you're going to go to, then getting in the car and going there and all the, you know, the mess and the effort it takes. But the stories that come from that and, you know, all of that, it's attentionality that matters.

Well, and it's transcendent. I mean, music is transcendent.

Completely.

It's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, I have a little bit of a different take on it perhaps because when I sit around and I talk to couples a lot, I'm often talking about the sound of their relationship. And you know that sound, like sometimes a couple, you'll hear them in my office here, this is where I am. They'll come in and they'll sit on my couch and they'll be like, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh. And the sound is like so unpleasant, right? And sometimes the sound is more, it's more of a grieving sound, right? Really sad, but I often will just say, "Why don't you guys try just playing music in your house? Like at night, why don't you just like turn on some jazz, or why don't you turn on an artist that you listened to when you were younger, or whatever? Like change the sound of your home just to bring something new into the space. Like that's less about going out, right? Going out into a concert or something. But don't I look nice? I look nice because I'm going to a concert tonight. My wife dressed me. She

was like, "You look very handsome." Thanks.

Thanks. We're going to see. We're going to see Sarah. Oh, really? Sarah Bareilles.

Okay. Yeah, sure.

But, you know, we'll play Sarah in our house and it's just like this, uh, you know, pleasant lyrical piano moving around and it just changes the, the air, right? It just changes the air in your space. So I really appreciate that that is, uh, part of your book or part of the secret anyway, because I can get behind it 100%, even if it's not do this date night activity thing. You know?

Yeah.

No, it's, I mean, it's like a tuning frequency, right? I mean, music is such a big part of the human existence. And, uh, and I love that you tell your clients that because it really, it can change the energy of a, you know, I mean, it's, it's a, it's just a beautiful thing to experience with other people.

It's, it's great energy. And this is, while we're speaking with each other, this is like the only time that music isn't playing in our home. Music's playing in our home 24/7.

Well, when I'm home, it's quiet.

Yeah, when you're home, it's a little quieter. She doesn't notice as much when it's on, but it is on. You just don't tune into it.

I'm much more of a, you know, I like hearing the birds and the, but I love it. It's just, I know that it's, you know, when everyone's around, it's, I love it. I love it. It's great.

Yeah. So this is one of your secrets. I have 2 questions about your book. Well, I have plenty of questions about your book. One is, I guess I'm interested to know, how did a lawyer tech guy become a relationship personality or like an opinion haver? Like, how did you make that transition? How did you decide to write this book and not just write a book, say, about music or about, you know, whatever else? Like, what was that transition for the two of you?

Well, so first of all, I always have, I have opinions all the time. And my head is always thinking, you know, like I'm constantly thinking about just different things. And one of the things that, you know, we were talking about kind of going with her gut is that just my professional path has been intentionally unintentional.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like this, like this. So that leads to, I've been, among other things throughout my, I've always been a writer, just always have been among other things. So I write things, I write newsletter, whatever. Mostly professional stuff, but I've wanted to write a script over the course of my career. So I wrote a script, and that's something I want to see. One of my goals in life is to get that produced or get one of my scripts produced. In this particular case, what happened was that we had our 30th anniversary that was upcoming. And so many months ago, I had read this book that I gave to my son Luca, who's a new filmmaker and just starting off his career. And it was called How to Start by Jody Kantor. From the New York Times. Right. And it's a short practical guide that, that, that I thought was really useful. And as I was reflecting upon our upcoming 30th anniversary, I was thinking to myself, well, what are the things that we've done that I believe have, that we've implemented in our lives to build? You know, I'm just grateful what we've been able to build in terms of a marriage and the kids we have are wonderful and the whole lives. Like, I'm just grateful for it all. So I started thinking about that and I came up with 10 things.

Okay.

And that I just, it was like active serendipity. It was, okay, this would be kind of cool. It's kind of something like what Jodi Kantor wrote about how to start. Here are 10 practical things that worked for us. Doesn't mean that they're exactly the answers for you who may read this, but I started flushing them out and I started flushing them out. It's almost like it's bringing things that we have seen. So I call it hiding in plain sight because These are things that are right there. You don't have to learn anything new. They're right there in front of you, but it's about taking action to build them into your lives. And so then I started writing it up and I was thinking, God, this could be really interesting, I believe, to other people.

Somebody read this.

Yeah. And that's what led to this particular book. So I'm certainly— here's the thing. I know I'm no relationship expert. I know what's worked for us. I believe that some of these things, I, I believe that they're universal things that may work for other people. I just felt that it'd be kind of an interesting thing to bring to life from a tech guy to— Sure. Like the analog living thing is an interesting counterpoint because I do believe very strongly about that, that I'm this technology guy, but I believe that the answer to the happiness question that society is facing, that all of us are facing, is really kind of what Luisa was talking about. Getting into nature, getting outside, communing with each other, and analog living. So that's a big part of it.

Luisa, have you read it?

Yeah.

It's funny. So we were in Bora Bora.

She had no idea I was— the backdrop here is important. She had no idea I was writing this.

She had no idea I was writing it. Yeah. And, uh, on our 30th anniversary, he, you know, we've got our cards and our gifts and we're on our— at our beautiful overwater bungalow. And he pulls out this book and he goes, this is for you. And I was like, this is for me? And he goes, yeah, I think I'm gonna— I'm gonna— I wrote it for you. I think I'm gonna publish it. And all of a sudden I was like, wait, what? You're going to what? You're going to publish our story? So I started reading it and obviously it was really beautiful. I mean, I had some mixed emotions at first. Okay, that's what I want to know about. Yeah, I was like, wait, is this for me or is this for other people? So I started kind of, obviously wanted to read what he had written. In all fairness to him, I mean, he had time to—

Sure.

kind of process all of this. I was thrown into, yeah, I'm going to publish our story and I'm going to do this kind of this thing. And I'm a fairly private person. And I was like, oh yeah, what does that mean? But as I read it, I mean, obviously he's such a— he's a lover of life and he's a beautiful, beautiful soul. Yeah. And it's all very pure. And so it was really It was, you know, it was, it was just, it kind of shocked me a little bit. I was like, whoa.

Do you have a favorite secret?

I mean, it's interesting. I think like his are a little bit different than mine. He focused on, obviously, I mean, the, the dog.

That was one chapter is about dogs. Like, just get a dog.

Just get a dog. Um, no, there's, I mean, everything he wrote obviously are related to, and, and, uh, we like to suck the marrow out of life, you know? And I think that's something that really has continues to bond us. And so in that vein, we're always questioning and we're always looking at like, what is the meaning of life? And what is, you know, what is a truly meaningful life? And I think in that vein, I think he was— by the way, I think he has other additions on just happiness and, you know, a lot of different— he just has a lot to say. And, you know—

But just be there probably says a lot.

I mean, I love— to me, I love the moment he came up with active serendipity when he was talking about that. That to me, especially in today's age with the younger kids and just everybody. I think after the pandemic, people have become so reticent to really just kind of get out there. And I think to me, that's— I was like, this is a book right there. But to me, that's the biggest thing.

So when I gave— candidly, Zach, when I gave her the book, I expected her— maybe I wish I were a better person, but I expected her to go, God, that's amazing, and all that. And You know, I told her, like she said, that the plan is this, and I didn't get the reaction. I didn't get that reaction.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so we had a—

Well, we're so impressive, right? You and me and all these famous people, we're, we're so like, people want our opinion and they, they think about, you know, what would Zach say? And they look at our podcast or whatever else. But our, our partners are relatively unimpressed at, at the end of the day. Like they're not, they're not like—

I don't know. I mean, I, you know, I love, I, I'm very impressed with everything. He's, he's a very prolific guy.

I mean, he's— I'm just saying like, When I, I don't know, Peter, I get it basically because I'm like, hey, this amazing thing happened. And she's like, yeah, but did you take out the garbage? You know? Yeah. Or yeah.

No, I don't think it was that. I think it was just, it was like, whoa. It was just, it just kind of, I was like, wait, you're going to publish this? The private, I think the private. You know, our story. And like I said, he had time to process it. He was writing the whole time and then he kind of gives it to me. And if it was just for me, I would have been like, oh, that's So like that. But do you know what I mean? It was like going out to the world.

Instead of it being just personal, it's public.

It lost the intimacy, I think, for me in a little bit. But then I really understood, you know, the passion that he, you know, always put into it.

But we had to talk it out. Like, if she said— it would have hurt, I'll be honest. It would. If she said, I don't want this out there. Then of course, ultimately that would hurt, but I would respect that. But I also know that she wouldn't do that in a sense too, because we come to the middle on things. Right. But it was a conversation, and so it's not like it was automatic. And then I just want to touch upon the point about that she was saying about active serendipity and getting off the couch. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because this is, I think, something that all of us deal with, which is pandemic and the way life has become. We live in an increasingly frictionless world in the sense of you're able to be in your home and live your life and order your food and order Amazon deliveries and have everything you want to watch, all your entertainment on the screen in front of you. So you don't need to leave your house. You can have your relationships. You can swipe left, you can swipe right, you know, all that virtual friendship stuff. And So the friction has been taken away. That's a problem. I, we both believe that's a real problem. And it gets into some of the themes we were talking about. And so it's not, it's increasingly difficult maybe to get off that couch, but that's where life happens.

Yeah.

Life happens when you put yourself out there.

And that's where you meet, you might meet your, you know, your partner and

totally

like, and you just can't let life pass you by. And I think that's where the music and the festivals and the

community Do you know who Pete Holmes is, the comedian?

I don't think so.

He has a great joke, and he's talking about exactly this, where he says, Google's made us dumber because we don't ask questions anymore. And we're like, we used to wonder around. We used to be like, I wonder where Tom Petty's from? And right now, we cannot get off our couch. We can Google it and find out that he's from wherever he's from. He said, but it used to be that you had to walk around, and you just didn't know. You just didn't know for a while. And then one day, you're at a music festival, and you see some girl in a Tom Petty t-shirt, And you ask her, hey, do you know where Tom Petty's from? And that's how you met your wife.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Yeah,

that is.

That's, that's exactly your story. I got off my couch one day and I just was hanging around and I saw this vision walk past me at a restaurant and decided I'm gonna—

Yeah. Instead of looking down at my phone, maybe where I wouldn't have seen this, even if I were at the restaurant, if I were looking at my phone, you know how people don't like—

Totally.

They feel uncomfortable with if there's a silence or something like that. So they look at their phones. You know how many relationships have never happened because of that? Otherwise would've originated.

Totally. Yeah.

And I think also just in terms of really, you know, anyone in a relationship now, it just, you know, making that time to, to really just, you know, have date nights or go out and do things together and, and not be on your phone and really intentionally kind of talk about life. And life is so, it's so vast and so big, you know, and, and, uh, And just being curious, you know, being

curious.

That's so important. Being curious always. Right. And so that goes back to getting off your couch and really having, you know, in-depth conversations with people. And I think that—

And with each other.

Yeah.

And taking time, like making sure you inject that time together, even if you've been together for 33 years.

Yeah. We still have fun together. Like we still, We wake up in the morning and it's like we have conversations about things we've seen or nowadays it's heavy conversations.

A lot of conversations. Yeah. We try to keep each other light.

But yeah, we just, I don't know, finding somebody who just keeps you curious. We still kind of challenge each other a little bit too, and having that kind of mutual respect. And it's rare to find, but it's also built. You gotta build on that. It's important.

It's kind of old-fashioned stuff. That's the way I think.

No, I'm into it. I actually like it a lot. I like the idea. We didn't talk about it very much, but the idea of analog living. I think that that's an invitation that I'm trying to get back to. I've recently given up my Apple Watch. And I'm back to just like, kind of not knowing if people have texted me in the last couple of hours. Like, it's okay. I don't, I don't need to know that. I'll get to them eventually. But

exactly.

Just sort of peeling some of that away.

Like some of that, like the Apple Watch medical, like all this data. Yes, data can be helpful, but we are immersed in so much data that we gotta stop.

Yeah.

I believe, you know, that's what we believe. We got our

brains are

on a burner, that fire hose of data coming at us. You gotta switch it off sometime and really. Go outside and take a walk with your dogs.

Yeah,

I'm gonna do

it. Touch grass.

We're gonna take the train. We're gonna take the train downtown tonight. We're gonna have dinner at a restaurant. We're gonna walk to the theater. We're gonna walk back to the train and get back.

I love that.

That's awesome. Taking the train is great.

Where do you live?

I'm in Seattle. Yeah.

Oh, nice. Oh, that's a beautiful city. Yeah.

You stole my quarterback.

Oh, did we?

Yes, you did. Sam Darnold was the Minnesota Vikings quarterback.

Man, I hope he gets it together here pretty soon because he's, uh, He's got the yips or something right now.

Yeah, but Zach, he won the Super Bowl for you last, last year or so.

No, I'm not complaining. I'm just saying I hope he finds that form again because he's, uh, he's been, he's got injured and he's throwing a bunch of interceptions. So hopefully he'll figure that out before too long. So.

I just want one in my lifetime.

There you go.

Anyhow.

And wait, Minnesota? Yeah. Yeah. And you guys are what? You're undefeated still, right?

So. Yeah, maybe.

But yeah, talk about, talk about having to suffer our entire relationship. I, I've had to suffer through you.

But she stuck with it.

But I stuck with it. Still sticking with it.

Um, you guys are a delight. Thank you so much for coming on Marriage Therapy Radio. Your book's available now. Yeah. Hiding in Plain Sight. Yeah.

It's available now at Amazon and you can go to hidinginplainsight.info to check it out.

Very cool. Thank you guys. Um, I'm going to look forward to knowing you and to learning more about, uh, active serendipity and the rest of it. So again, thanks for coming on.