Do I Belong Here? Race, Intimacy & Emotional Safety

The question that I was wondering to myself was like, how many people of color have you had on your post before? Like, how many clinicians of color? I can feel myself even like wanting to, I don't know, like, I kind of want to say, like, I promise it's not a gotcha question. Like, no, it's fine.

It's a great.

Question about, I guess, for me, why I was wondering it when I was really like, why do I want to know that? Because I was even, like scrolling through your old episodes and the Instagram page.

Yeah.

I think it's like for me like, Do I fit in here? Like, yeah, do I belong here? And I think that that's a question that a lot of well, not just people of color, but anyone with a marginalized identity when they're kind of in a space that real or perceived is, like, more dominated by people in privilege. You're kind of just, like, looking for your people, like, yeah, I don't know. I think I'm here. Do I fit in? So, yeah, I was kind of wondering, like, have you had other, therapists, professionals, couples even, that come from marginalized communities?

Yeah. I mean, it's a great question. And the answer is mostly no. Like, I mean, we, Laura and I are about as white as they come. I mean, we, like, live in suburbia. We live in really safe, protected liberal communities. And, you know, we we carry a lot of the trappings and the privileges that come with that 100%. And that tends to be people who and people who are like us want to listen to us. And so, you know, when we started to, you know, kind of gain some traction and people started paying attention, then it became sort of a show where there were guests or others, you know, that came in. And again, you're sort of drawn to what you know.

And so a lot of the inquiry and a lot of our outreach was toward folks that we could really easily resonate with. And, we didn't we are starting to we sort of started to and I've started to get a lot more aware of what all that means. That's a that's a new word journey for me in the last few years to kind of try on, different skin, but, not different skin, but try on like, what does it mean for me to sit in this place and to invite other people to speak in that place and, as you know, like minorities are a minority. They're they're just fewer number. So it's harder to find the folks that are out there and eager. I do think we want to sort of expand and, reach into different places, if only to say, hey, help me know what it means to be in this place, like, I.

Yeah.

I have well.

That, like, even just maybe understanding where my curiosity comes from, you know? So I am, I am a Mexican-American woman who's lived in South Texas her entire life.

What does that mean? Does that mean your mom and dad are Mexican.

Or the means? Actually, it means that I am born. I'm American born. I was born in Texas, as were many generations before me. And some of my ancestry comes from Mexico. Now, my mom's side of the family, actually, she has one parent that was Irish and another parent that is Spanish. So I guess technically that would make me half Mexican American because that's my dad's, family background. But the reason I identify with that most strongly is because, one, I think that is what is visible when you look at me. Two the culture that I was raised around was primarily my dad's family. And in South Texas, the majority ethnicity, is Mexican, Mexican American. So that's why I identify with that most strongly, even though that's not the totality of ancestry, but living in Texas as a Latino person. Yes, there is a lot of other Latinos around you, and there is still very much a.

This is how it presents.

Yeah, there's a conservative presence. So you're you're always kind of assessing safety to some degree and do I fit in, do I belong am I okay here. And so I just notice that I guess when I was invited to come chat with you, like, yeah, I'm like, who am I talking to? And all those old, like, I want to fit in kind of strategies start showing up and it's like, whoa, Desiree, you're 44. Like, you don't have to fit in.

You're 44. I never would have guessed.

I'm 44. Oh, good answer, good answer. Yeah. So this is a time to.

Help me with this part then, because I definitely am kind of actually, that's a my actual question. How much can should I say help me with this? Like when I say to my black neighbors or my gay neighbors or my Latina friends, like, help me understand what that's like, because it sure is that it. Is that a place I should be, or is that also too privileged? You know, like, I don't know if I know the answer to that question.

Yeah. Hey, you know what?

You you help me make. Yeah. You know, like, that doesn't feel good to me inside my skin. Yeah. And I will say this part because we're talking about the podcast and on the podcast, I kind of don't care what people who are listening are thinking or where they're from. I think they ought to think outside the box, and they ought to think differently, and they ought to be challenged by voices like yours and others. I've had plenty of people in the last six months in particular, let me know that they're kind of done listening to the podcast because they think it's to insert word here, right? Insert by the word woke, left, whatever, divert, I don't care. Yeah. Because I need to have these conversations and I need to have them with people and my, and my clients.

So I guess. Yeah, I'll start there. Like, what is what is that? Help me understand this. Help me, help me. Help. Help people understand. That's like I'd like to know about that.

Okay, let me let me organize my thoughts. So you your first question was, can you ask or how to ask? Sure. You like.

You know, like, I, I had a client come in, had a guy, a man come in, black man, come in. And I was way into my right stuff. Thinking about patriarchy, thinking about lens eight, which is all about socio cultural context. You know, I tried to like, inform him and I said, hey, listen, I'm going to come from a place of ignorance and I'm going to need your help, like to make sure that I can meet you where you need to be back, and never made a second appointment. And I was like, yeah, I wonder, like, okay.

So here's that's not the right.

Message. So anyway.

Yeah, here's my thought on that. And as I answer you, this will make you in expert on one because I knew I you know. Yeah. On me and what works for me and you know certainly Latinos are not a monolith and I cannot represent them all. And I feel better when people are trying to get to know me. And when it is about getting to know me and not about helping you now in this context, like, yeah, you know, you're you're my buddy right. Like you're my colleague. Like I even called you my primo. Like you can ask me whatever you want to ask me. Yeah. If if I were your client or if I were in a session as a client, or if I was with a colleague that I was meeting for the first time, like a new colleague.

I'm open to someone wanting to get to know me. So tell me about, you know, growing up in South Texas or tell me about, you know, the ways that your culture impacts like your relationship as opposed to help me understand, like Mexican American people or help me understand the Latino culture broadly. And I did listen to your podcast, I think that came out this week.

And I heard between a name and an accent, I made an inference I might be wrong, but the guest that you had, there was someone that between his name and his accent, I was like, oh, maybe. Maybe he had a question. Yeah, yeah, a question. I was hoping you would ask and didn't, and that's okay. Was just, something along those lines, like the degree to which and I don't know what his partner's culture or background was, but the degree to which you guys come from different cultures, like, tell me how you navigate that in your relationship, or tell me about the ways in which you were different.

Cultural experiences and histories show up. You know how to negotiate your new relationship. So I, I personally think questions like that most people would feel good about. But when it's like, educate me about your people that can feel a little less, I don't know, just feels like a little more of a heavy lift. Yeah.

I get that. I feel that like, I get it. I'm like, do you? Okay, well, I'm like, that's the wrong question. Like, that's not really the question I want to ask, but it's actually really helpful to think, ask about you. Ask about the, the thing. That's actually right there. I think I just I'm so, I think conditioned to ignore it, to ignore it because I get to I don't have to I don't I don't walk into any room anywhere. I think I you might have heard me say this before, but when I went to Korea a few years ago, I was only there. I mean, I was there for 48 hours, but it was the only first and only time in my life I've ever felt other. And it wasn't strictly that I didn't look like anybody else, but also the language, right?

It doesn't even look like English. Like there aren't English letters everywhere. So I thought it was like in a Star Wars movie, almost like where there was just like a totally different. And I was like, I don't belong here. I don't know how to feel.

What did that feel like for you?

It felt really strange. Here's the other thing, though. I knew that if at any moment, any moment I raised my hand, I was like, me, I need help. Somebody help me out! I was going to get it, but it felt I felt actually, this is a weird thing to say, but I actually felt really like, honored. I felt really honored to have this feeling like for the first time, like I just was like, oh, okay, act like you. You can find empathy or something. Like, I felt good about having at least the awareness of that. But no, I was confused and I and I just sort of took it in. I was I was I felt, odd. I felt like in all of the.

The was there any loneliness?

I think no, I think it was because of that other thing I said. Like, if I could have solved it at any moment, I could have just, And, you know, I was a tourist, so all I had to do was find another tourist, and I was be like, hey, where are you from? And but.

Well, and that's a little bit of what I was doing, I think scrolling through your stuff like, yeah, there another tourist out here, like, seriously? Yeah. And one of the reasons that I do the work that I do and try to put myself out there, even beyond being a clinician of color, I don't see enough married people in marginalized identities talking about marriage, talking about the the utter challenge and celebration of trying to do intimacy in a world that has oppressed and marginalized you for centuries.

And so I, I, I don't know if there's one other tourist out there that is, you know, listening like connecting with that. Like it. I do think there is an, there is, an intersection of how hard it is to do marriage, you know, to do relationships, to do intimacy, and then the intersection of trying to do that while also navigating marginalization and oppression and racism and homophobia and all of those things.

So the first place I go, of course, is, like to Hector and Robin, who she's a white lady and, functionally their relationship is inter interracial, right? Like they have an intercultural and multicultural. What is the right word that multicultural. It's like intercultural marriage basically. Or they're not married. But that's not strictly what you're talking about. You're talking about just like people who maybe you and Adam, who live in this world, and you have to navigate the complexity of that.

That's why it's the difference to them. Anyone you know, because the thing when so what? I imagine so I'm not in a relationship that is interracial. Both my husband and I are Latino. However, what's interesting when people are, is now the, like, power dynamics in the relationship, at least on some level, mimic what goes on in our larger culture. And we always know that there's like power dynamics in a, in a relationship, right? When you sit down with any two people that come to you for help, that's part of, I think, why we also really love doing relational like light therapy, because it, puts that front and center. And then when you add on like another layer where the two people are of a different race.

Yeah. I mean, it kind of brings that into the room too. So, so whether they're of the same culture or not, there's always, I think, elements of that intersection and, you know, the, the, the steep hill that we're climbing when we're trying to do intimacy in a world that largely, can be really unsafe for us in a very real way. Yeah.

Like you're making sense. And again, it's like, I'm I feel honored to be having these conversations because I. Intimacy. It's been easy for me. I mean, except for the part that it's not. But that's not connected to what the world is imposing upon me, you know.

Right, right, right. Intimacy is hard for everyone. No doubt. Like no doubt. It's those intersections, right? Or the the additional layers of complexity.

So how does that show up for you? How does it show up for you in your well, in your life? But then like, how do you how do you find yourself navigating that with clients? But I'm actually more interested in you and Adam.

That's just because you're nosy. Yeah, I am, Well, look, I think the way it shows up for my husband and me is probably very similar to how it shows up for a lot of people. I would start with, self-esteem work. You know, one thing you need in order to do intimacy is self esteem. Based on the idea that I'm enough and I matter, that I am just as worthy in this world as everyone else on the planet. But they're the fact is that certain bodies are born into this world. That gives them a completely different message. So when you are trying to do intimacy from healthy self esteem and just even in the context of that relationship, trying to like, own your worth and like center yourself and yeah, like my needs matter in this relationship.

And then the complexity of the external culture, like saying that for some reason, because of the body you're in, you're actually less worthwhile. Like you don't belong here. You should be sent back or, no, we're not even going to acknowledge that you exist. In fact, we're going to pass laws to erase who you are, like what I'm supposed.

To do or make I'm.

Enough, and I matter in the face of all of that. Like, are you crazy? So that's one way that it can show up.

Okay, I want to ask this question on behalf, on like your behalf and on behalf of marginalized people, but also just people who don't get self-esteem. So, like, where does that come from? It doesn't come from somebody telling you. Well, yeah. Like, how do you like I have a client that I'm thinking of right now who's like, I don't get self-esteem. I don't understand it. I don't know where it comes from. I have no idea how to get it. I'm like, you're enough, and you matter. And she's like, I don't. I mean, okay, but like, that's not what I got from my mom. It's not what I got from my culture. It's not what I got from my husband. Like, so how am I supposed to believe you? Like when you're when we have this question of esteem and whether or not it's cultural or just just carried, period. How do you gain access to it or how do you get how do you how do you help people get access to it.

That that is a challenge. It's a tough one on a, on a personal level, like my belief system is that it's spiritual. It comes from source, whatever you want. A title or name, that source. I think it comes from source. Capital I love source, yeah. Like, I love when I hear, like, scientists and stuff. Talk about how we come from Stardust, you know? Oh, me from Stardust. I mean, that's kind of cool.

I grew up in that, like, evangelical kind of church, and I have all these, like, mantras that are ingrained in me about how every number, every hair on my head is carefully numbered and I'm fearfully and wonderfully made, and, you know, God doesn't make crap or something like that. And, so I literally I have this, like, ingrain and set of mantras, and I'm not even sure how effective they are, but when, when I'm grappling with this question and I want to go to like mantra, I'm like, oh yeah, I know it's just a you got to just memorize this notion, memorize this. But I but it is a fleeting question for me. And with this one client in particular, I'm like, I don't know how to help you get this sense of esteem, particularly when all these messages around you were saying, nope, not available to you.

Right? It's a challenge for sure. I don't know that I have great answers.

I do, you do? Oh, yeah. You just tell me.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I do a lot of curiosity with my clients, like, you know, it, but it does kind of lean into some spiritual sort of conversation. Right? Like, do you feel connected to something bigger than you, you know, like, moving out beyond your own ego, you know, and ego being like, you know, that the, like, voice in your head or the physical body or, you know, it's like, but where is the soul in that? You know, like, where is the thing that, you know, this external vessel is sort of carrying and can can you see that? Can you connect that to something bigger, more abundant, more benevolent? Something wise, wiser, you know that. And I do think that, like, being connected to something bigger can begin to be a source of self-esteem, like an inherent sort of thing. But it is challenging. And that's the thing, right? Like that's what we're up against when trying to do intimacy.

Do you feel like, marginalized communities, Latinos or others? You know, I don't want to I don't know how to even use the right language, but I almost feel like you guys like Chet. I'm doing it like you guys. But is there like a, Of course I know where it comes from. It comes from this rich, deep, connected history of culture that I have, like, I think even about right now, like something you said to me a while back, but then also right now in this political climate about how, like, why aren't black people freaking out? Or because we've been doing this forever as part of our own, like we've found our sense of identity and community in each other for centuries, and it's like it's almost like there's an I don't want to say it's an advantage. Like, do you feel like you can kind of go back to the, the, the clarity of your of your culture to bring esteem to that table, to the table?

Or is that is that a story I'm making up in my head?

Well, so the in the example that you mentioned, I think you were telling me about something, you know, that had happened and you were like, I'm so surprised. Like I'm so shocked. Right? And I just said, like, well, black and brown people probably aren't shocked. Like, we've been getting screwed over since. That's exactly how like, you think we're surprised that this happened, like. But, I think beyond that, I, I think what, what people might be finding and I'm speculating a bit when they're reconnecting with their more indigenous roots and ancestry is a return to belonging. Because, you know, through colonization and, you know, imperialism was stripped of a lot of that. And other ideologies are imposed on you, other languages, other foods, other, other ways of being in community, other ways of being in relationship are imposed and forced, often violently.

And we know that trauma is handed down generation to generation to generation in the, in the DNA. And so I think for a lot of people who are reclaiming their indigenous history, it's a return to belonging. And that feels grounding. And can be a source of coping and, and even beyond coping, it can be a way to thrive in the face of other stuff that's going on in the world.

Let me I'm going to tell you my Ancestry.com story right now because.

Tell me I'm dying to know. I really want to know the.

The, the climax of this story is pathetic. But here's here's what it is my mother in law gave me, gave us, gave all the kids, this Ancestry.com packet for Christmas. So we all spit in the tube and we sent it in and we got our results back, and I have, I just got mine back. I have my entire life believed that I, that my olive skin and my ability to tan and my connection to the earth comes from my mother, my grandmother's Native American story. Her her, her, like, indigenous peoples thing. So I get my results back and I'm 100% boring white guy. I'm England, Scotland, Ireland, Germany, no, Sweden, Wales like 100%. And I had this really sad, oh, experience of losing a part of my identity that I've had for 51 years, like 50 years of my life. I believe that I was like, I was not like, anyway, so here I am, and I was like, wait a second.

I'm like, I don't even have like, woe is me. Like literally, this is my story. Woe is me. I'm a white guy. Like, that's literally what.

I'm a straight white man in America. I know God, and that's what.

But that's what I'm. So that's what's so pathetic about it. But I did have a very real experience of having a part of my identity removed and take it and like, take it away. And I'm kind of like, oh, now what? Like, I don't know, what am I supposed to do with this reality? So anyway, can you make me feel.

Better about, well, in America, what you can do with that reality is any damn thing you please.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you can do anything you want.

It's why I'm so grateful that I have daughters. Because at least I can go. Hey, we we can. There's something we can do to, like, shift the balance, I can empower. I don't have to worry about empowering little boys. Like, I can literally spend all my energy empowering these. These two in particular, to make them trying to give away my power on their behalf to help them move up and through the world. But man, it's challenging. And anyway, I still I still tan really easy.

Well that's good.

Yeah.

There's something at least.

Anyway. Yeah I don't, I don't, I don't know. It's been a very, it's been an intriguing time to kind of come into awareness about who I am, how I fit in the world, what I can and can't do, what my responsibility is. And yeah, I'm trying to just be a good student right now because I just feel like, you know, I, I've always you you noted a little bit earlier that you try to bring curiosity. And I think that that the, the opposite of curiosity is certainty. And when we bring certainty, I know exactly what it is. I know exactly how it works. I know exactly who you are. I know exactly what your experience is. It just ruins our Mars, the actual relational experience. So I'll preach that from the mountaintops. But it's been, you know, trying to stay curious has been, it's been really hard because I'm like, okay, I'm sorry that I don't know some of this stuff, but I'm what you want me do.

I'm trying to learn.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, uncertainty is vulnerable. Being a knower feels good for the ego. So to be curious, you have to be willing to sit in uncertainty. You have to be willing to be a learner, which can feel, I think to some people, like a forfeiture of power. But I think it's the only way to really take the armor down and connect with the human being in front of you, because I don't know anything about you and your lived experience and what goes on inside your skin. And to the degree that you're willing to share that with me, I'll be curious to listen and center that and not what I think about it.

So if I'm trying to make something simple, something very complex, simple, and we're talking about self esteem and those who are down or who don't have enough of it or don't have easy access to it, your advice or counsel or leading is to try to connect to something bigger. It's to connect to something bigger, like, even if it's something called truth or source that I interpret you correctly.

Yeah. And, if that doesn't work with some folks, I said, you know, well, who do you want to give the power to write that message for you? Is it people that want to condemn you based big, you know, solely on your body or.

Who do you want to give that power? Yeah. Sort of. To tell you whether or not you matter.

Yeah, certainly not the larger culture. And if you are someone that just can't connect to that idea of, like, a higher power, well, how about you just take back ownership of that story yourself? Why don't you give yourself the power to say, you know what I am enough, and I do matter in this world, and I am worthy of taking up space. And I give that to myself.

Yeah. How do you feel about, This is like, right next to Stuart Smiley, Al Franken character on Saturday Night Live. I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. Doggone it, people like me. I've used that, in this space. But actually, another reality therapist, Sarah Frankfurt, told me that that's actually still outsourcing. It's still outsourcing to my work comes from what I'm good at, or that I'm smart, or that people like me. It doesn't come from inside. But I do think that there's something about kind of evaluating where that word comes from in a pretty deliberate way.

Yeah.

Did I tell you this? I don't know if I told you this. This is kind of right next to my little mattress, right? Abby, my 22 year old, I we have a we have a relationship that's. I don't want to call it real, real hard, but it's challenging. It's testy. And I had to prepare for her coming home from for Christmas, and I, I, I did it really intentionally by saying to myself over and over again, I'm a good dad. I'm good to her, and I'm good for her, and I don't need her to agree to make that true. And I just told myself that over and over and over again, because I knew that if I was waiting for her to validate me, or waiting for her to affirm for me that I was good, then I was going to lose my seat. I was going to not I wasn't, she was going to I was going to outsource my esteem to her.

Yeah, yeah.

And, so that's an example of where I've kind of tried to when I tend to go down and doubt my doubt my credibility or ability as a dad, I've just sort of gone back to that. And the thing about that is it's true. Like, I am a good dad and I am good to her and I am good for I wasn't just making something up. I don't tend to be down to too often, but that's an area that challenges me for sure.

Sure.

On the other side, those of us who do get to sit on the upside and the place of privilege or the place of power, and maybe our esteem is a little too inflated or bloated. I think what I heard you say is the way out of that is through curiosity. It's through really opening up into, an actual inquiry into what it's like to be in somebody else's skin or in somebody else's experience.

Did I hear that correctly? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we we've sort of been talking off and on about the winning strategies as defined by. Right. And one of them is, listen, to understand. And so I think that involves curiosity, and it also involves centering the other person's point of view. Like this doesn't necessarily have to make sense to me or be the way I would see it or react to it or would feel about it. But I can listen deeply enough to understand that this is very much, in fact, what it's like for you, as opposed to trying to, like, filter through my own understanding. Well, does that make sense to me? It's like, no, it need to. It makes sense to them. And I will do my best to try to understand and be curious and ask questions to understand you better, not to make it make sense for me.

So let's say I do that. Let's say I do that whether I'm a husband or whether I'm just a, you know, a therapist or whether I'm just a regular guy on the street and you don't feel equipped or confident or free to be understood because you because you're coming from that down position, you're coming from this, you know, diminished place. How do you invite those folks to give themselves permission to, to be on a level playing field or unequal ground with these, with the with the effort to understand like I'm just thinking about, again, about specific clients who he's like, I'm trying to understand. And she's like, I don't trust it. I don't believe it. I don't know if it's real. You know, that is is it still an esteem issue or is that something that is is it something she can learn how to do in this case?

I mean, I don't know that that I think is a little more complicated. Like maybe it's an esteem issue. Maybe it's also because historically, there have been real times where that person, you know, couldn't be trusted, you know, it wasn't a healthy container for whatever needed to be said. And so you're overcoming you need time to work through that history. I think the best way to show people, you know, that you're you're someone that wants to be relational with them, is to accept whatever it is they're telling you. So, I don't know. I can't trust it. I'm not sure I'm not ready. Okay, then take all the time you need. I'm not going anywhere. Okay. Because the moment we start demanding more then it becomes about what we want and not what they need is that. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think you're, I think you've slipped a little bit into the sort of the one up space. I'm still trying to figure out how to help. Maybe this is my learning edge or one of my learning edges. Is this how to bring the the the person with the lower self-esteem up? I'm trying to figure that out a little bit better. How to equip them and them in better ways. Because I think I'm in my own personal journey. I'm doing a good job of coming down off my high horse. At least relative to who I was five, ten years ago. I'm not sure how good I am still of bringing up others.

If that makes you talking about clients or are you talking outside.

Of my wife? I'm talking about my kids. I'm talking about some clients. I'm talking about, you know, so.

Just so clients, I would put in a different category just because there's a contract there, right? Like they are explicitly coming to us to, to impart some skill and some, I don't know, wisdom, expertise, knowledge. When it's in your personal life, how do I pick people up? I don't know that you can I think the best thing you could do is make sure that you are operating out of your healthy self esteem, because the moment I think, let me pick you up, I think I've slipped into some grandiosity there, I say, and I'm better, I am smarter, I am wiser. I have something a great point. I'm just going to make sure I'm operating in my healthy self esteem and, conveying warmth, care, positive regard. Yeah. And it's your journey. You take your time with it, you'll get there. Like that kind of stuff. Yeah. Here's what has helped me. If you would like to know, I'll share what's helped me.

Maybe it would help you, but I don't know that it would.

Yeah, okay, I think I think I got that in my house. Anyway, and I certainly appreciate that there's differentiation between, like, your kind of day to day real life and then the work that you're doing in your office. So.

Yeah.

All right. Well, that's pretty cool. I learned a lot. I feel, I feel better about being a white guy. Thanks so much for helping me.

Oh, I'm so glad I could help you out with that. Ooh, Desiree. Hearing white men one at a time.

44.

A from from their low self-esteem. Yes. That's a win of the week for me.

No, seriously, I appreciate you. I'm so grateful to be in these kinds of conversations with you. I think you you make me think about things that I wouldn't think about otherwise, and I and I have not had that in my life, as often as I would like. So I'm glad that we are getting to talk and, that I get to share you with the world. There's, like, a million people listening to you right now, so.

Oh, wow, a whole million.

Yeah, it's a million.

Fascinating. Last I checked. Well, good. I'm. I'm glad that, I, I hope that the question didn't come across as, like, I'm trying to call you out or, you know, you feel bad or. But even it really isn't from that energy.

It definitely didn't. And, and even if it did, I'm like, that could be okay. Maybe that's maybe that's what needs to happen from time to time.

This true? Maybe. Okay.

All right, well, we get to visit one more time and, we'll see what we come up with. I'm excited about it. And, but, yeah. You got any? You got any? You want to do some small talk? I mean, do some. You told me an email. You're like, I fry your brain if I ask you a the cocktail party question.

I know I'm so bad at that. What's going on this week, like, in terms of just, like, regular life? I'm, you know, I'm really excited. I have all next week off. It's spring break for my daughter and I, like, cleared my calendar of just about everything guy. There's still a couple of teaching commitments that I couldn't clear off, but I'm just like, really excited to do that. And one of the things that I'm actually going to go do, which is not with my child, even though I promise I made plans to spend time with her next week. I'm, I'm I'm going to meet up with Lisa Sullivan. She is here in Texas. Oh, cool. And, so I'm going to go meet up with Lisa and hang out. Lisa, of course, like Terry's right hand at the institute and just a phenomenal human being all around. So I'm excited to spend time with her.

Right. Well, I got some behind the scenes stuff I'm going to ask you about off off the show, but then, we'll we'll talk. Okay? We'll talk soon.

All right. Sounds good.