Building a Friendship That Lasts Beyond Parenting

Hi, Darren and liver. And how are you doing?

Hey, I second Zack.

We are good.

Yeah. I'm so glad that we're doing this. We got to hang out a couple weeks ago at your house, and we just, like, talked for, like, what, three days?

Two days? It was crazy. It was.

Awesome.

It was really fantastic. I actually realized that, we are better friends than we used to be, even, because, like, the conversation got so deep. Like it actually, really, it was a different context altogether. Staying with us for a bit. It was really neat.

Yeah, yeah. You mean you and me were better friends?

Just all of us? Yeah. Like. Well, we were friends, as you.

Are, but,

Yeah, I don't know. It was. It felt different to me.

Well, also, it's always been at a professional context, and they are usually done in a professional context. In the past and also tons of people around. And so we just got to be the four of us. And that was really great.

Yeah, I found it quite deep. It was quite.

Amazing.

That's cool. She is amazing. And, I'll share with the world what she said to me, which I already texted you guys, but we were we were hanging out one morning and just talking about whatever we were talking about. I don't even remember. I just remember that she sort of paused and she goes, Laverne is basically the perfect person. And I was like, what? She goes, yeah, she just she just like the best. It was like, oh, okay, babe. Like, sure. So I don't know what you did, but you work your magic, in that space. So.

And then I asked if she said anything about me, and then you just cryptically said yes, and that was it. And, And I just assume the worst.

Well, later, I said, what she said was that you have impeccable taste in women.

Yeah. So it's nothing. It's still nothing about me.

Well, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you guys is because, it's pretty cool. Like, I was thinking about, like, what would the title of this episode be? And I think it's sort of along the lines of, like, how to Empty Nest, because you guys have, had five daughters come to your life and then leave, and now you're just kind of in your house by yourself every day. And I just want to, like, I guess, hear a little bit more about how you make that work. How do you understand it? How do you what is it that you I don't know? That's kind of what I was thinking about, because that's.

A great idea.

We both left your house and said we. Now we know what to do. We'll do what they. We'll do it. Those guys are doing like they're they have adventures and they build Legos and they like, watch shows and they, you know, like, Anyway, I'd love to have a hot tub.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I am very attached to my family, my kids. I love them, and I would never undo any of them. And I love that they have their own life and no longer live under my roof. And our relationship, you know, as in mine with each of them, has gotten so much better. Like, it's always been good, but it's always gotten better as they've left and become more independent. And so, you know, Darren and I get to just be us again. Like when I put my phone down somewhere and then I go looking for it. It's exactly where I left it. You know, if I clean something up when I come back, it's exactly the way I left it. And so that's pretty great. And. You know, it's just our energy in the house, like, it's it's not, you know, I don't walk into the house in an immediately put out feelers like, oh, this kid's upset about something.

And this one, it's just he and I, and we've been with clients all day, and we had, you know, we we went to the gym because we can now, and, and then we drove home together, and I already know, you know, what space is in our mood or what is energy is and I know mine. It's just simpler. And it really does feel like an adventure. Like we're kind of figuring this out again.

I think you set us up, I think, well, you set us up for this, but we set ourselves up for this. When our kids were at home, because we established that we are more important than them, basically.

Well, you're.

Basically.

Well, how did you establish that? Because I don't think that's a normal I think I think people feel very, very loyal to, attached to as they should their children. And, you know, they organize their lives around their children. And I don't know about you guys, but I have plenty of couples coming in whose children have left. And they're like, well, now what? Now what do we do? Because they didn't do that. They didn't say we are more important than them, but how did you do that? How did you even know how to do that?

Well, I mean, we.

And what does it mean? Like, what do you mean is interesting?

There was a couple things that we established, which was bedtime, that gave us enough time to spend with each other and our kids as much as they wanted so badly to stay right up until we went to bed.

Because, you know, we're pretty awesome.

And they always liked being around us so much. But we we had to be okay with disappointing them. And I think a lot of parents, our kids are often were disappointed, like, we want to be with you. And it's like, you have to be okay with them not being happy with some of your decisions and that your that your coming, your relationship is the cradle for them. Like, if our relationship's not good they're screwed.

And also I would say I remember, you know when our kids were young feeling really guilty of you know we'd go out on a date and I'd be like should I check, be checking in with the babysitter. Like maybe we should just go home and and not, you know, stick a stick around cause they were upset. And it's actually something that I tell my clients now. It is a regret that I have. I wish we had gone out more. I wish we had dated more. I wish we had more adventures that didn't involve the kids all the time, because it's pretty easy to wrap your life around their world. And and five of them, you know, there were more of them than us. So like, lots of times the strategy was let's just keep them happy. Because if they figure out that there are more of them than us, we could be in trouble.

You also said when we had them in a lot of activities and we eventually said we are going to too many activities like we'd wear them in hockey, dance, not hockey, but baseball, dance, art, all of the things that we eventually said again to them, as disappointed as they were one activity each. We cannot support you guys in all these activities. And they didn't like that. But it it didn't. They're still fine today. Like they, they didn't get everything they wanted.

Yeah. Did you have all five at the same time ever. Because I know that you fostered you fostered three.

Yeah. So we had a two and a half year old and then so the you.

Half the two and a half year old.

Yeah. So our own biology.

Was two and a half. What. You came out like. She was fully two and a half when she was like yes.

Haha. Yeah. The two youngest are our biological children, the two oldest are sisters. And then the one in the middle, is not biological with anybody. And so when our biological oldest was two and a half, she went from being an only child and the, you know, became the youngest of of two, the two sisters. And then our biological youngest was born, and then the, the middle one joined us. So, so that's. Yeah. Did that answer your question?

Yeah. I mean, I, I've known a little bit about that, but that just means that you sort of I mean, again, we came over to your house and you have Legos all over the place because you're building, like, I can't. I mean, imagine you just sit there and you just sort of craft it together, but it's almost like you legged your family, like you sort of like, here's these pieces and then here's these, these two pieces come in next, and then those pieces come in. And like, now we have this thing that looks like a unit that didn't get formed in the kind of this the way that a lot of, nuclear families get formed. And so I don't think I ever knew exactly how that played.

Well. And I was just talking to to. So Bria, who was the two and a half year old when everybody else joined, and, you know, we were we were actually musing about how she went from an only child, became the youngest, was also the oldest.

Yeah.

Right. Like, that's got to be a confusing position to be in. But, you know, somehow these five women just make it work. They figure out, you know, how do we do this? And they kind of figure out their relationship with each other as they go along. And and our relationship with, you know, them is also evolving, as time goes on as well. That kind of.

I think we're also open about what we were trying to do. Like we were affectionate in front of them. We had our we cleared up our, some of our regrettable incidences, our fights. We would do that in front of them. Our kids kind of grew up a Gottman. They call it like they they talk to all of their friends about bids for connection and stuff. Start ups.

Love maps.

Love maps and aftermaths, like right from day one. So we did that in front of them, but also we, we were not afraid to talk about our even not really our sex life, but at least that we were affectionate, that we, you know, when they weren't getting the hint to go to bed and then we'd say, just, could you guys just go to bed? And then we say, could you guys, mom and dad want some alone time? And they they said, no, we want wait. Okay, guys, we want to have sex. Is that what you want to hear? Like. And then they go, oh, gross. Well, then get out of here.

Take a hand.

Take a hint.

That's awesome. As far as you know, like, did you at the time or do you now have what you would call a philosophy of parenting, like if you were to say, hey, man, what's your philosophy like? How does it work? Like do what is it?

Yeah. You did, you had a.

I remember very early on reading, William Glaser's choice theory book. And in there he talks about this concept of the most influential people. Parents are the ones who make sure that they are the voice in their kids head. And so, you know, I, I kind of always tried to parent.

Oh, he also said that the only way to be the voice in their head is if they like you.

Yeah. And so I always kind of tried to parent, you know, trying to visualize what do I want my, my adult relationship with each of them to look like. Yeah. And then how do I be that person that creates that so that when they get to that age, there is potential for a relationship there? And so my philosophy has always been pretty fluid, based on who the child was becoming. But, you know, trying to figure out, okay, how do I be, you know, the voice in their head so that when I am not there, when we're not around, you know, they.

Take us.

With they're faced with a decision that their decisions, you know, are kind of based on. Like, if I do this thing, what's going to happen to my relationship with mom or dad versus like, what will my friends think about me? And I am not naive enough to think that that was never a factor. But I always wanted to be on the list of, you know, they ran their decision making through. How is this going to impact my relationship with my family? And, you know, I have to say it it felt really good to hear one of my daughters, you know, say every first date I've ever been on, I would sit there and think, what would my mom think? What would my dad think? Would my parents? Would my siblings like this person? Nope nope.

Nope.

Nope. And then there were no second dates, right?

So yeah. And also we we had a Gordon Neufeld said rules without relationship create rebellion or some like that or something like that. Like you have to you can't have rules without relationship. And we always chose relationship over rules and also the way we like Laverne. I would offense, I'd get frustrated with our kids leaving for the thousandth time, and I always took it as somewhat disrespectful. Their socks, their shoes, their coats, their cups. And it's like, how many times do I have to tell you? And I would often tie in like this, like, like, what's wrong with you guys? How come here you can't get this right? Like. And I took it personally and she eventually said, Darren they're either going to they're going to leave this stuff here, whether you do it that way or not.

So you might as well do it in a friendly way. So instead of like, how can you keep on living your stuff here? It was more like, hey Bria, instead of like, this is the thousandth time your cup's here. It's like, hey Bria, your cup. And she'd go and get it. But I remember switching from, like, this is so, like, maddening to like, hey, this is she. She just said they're they're going to have messy rooms for the rest of their life. They're going to have leave stuff here for the rest of your life. Why get mad about it? It's going to be here for the rest of their life while they're here. So just say, hey, could you go and do this and then do or not?

You know, maybe one day they move out and they're like, oh, I don't like to live in a pigsty. I'm going to be tidy. And then they'll be clean. And it's a decision. They're going to make. You're not going to make them be something.

I asked one of them, how come their house is clean all the time and she's. And your room was a disaster. And she said, because it's my house and I, I like to keep it clean. Says, why don't you do that at our house? Because that was your house.

I, I always say that I don't know if this has been your experience in your actual life, but I've never learned a single thing. Never. One time in my life I've ever learned anything before. I was ready to learn it.

Yeah.

So clean your room, clean your room, clean your room. You got to have a clean room. Clean rooms are good. You should have a clean room. You're going to want to have a clean room. Your roommate roommates going to why? You have a clean room. You should have. You know that that doesn't matter until they figure out, oh, I'm ready to learn how to have a clean room. That's is a priority for me. You know.

Like, that is such a good point. I think that's what happened because. Yeah. And people think, oh, a messy room means they're going to be a disaster or they're going to be disorganized. We have not found that, that they're doing poor in elementary school or high school. They're going to do disastrous. No, they were doing poor because they didn't like it. Yeah. It wasn't their thing until it was their thing.

Do you think they could they could if I asked them articulate your philosophy of parenting. Do you think they would say what you just said?

Yeah.

We've asked them.

Yeah.

They said you they said you guys came first. Like we came first.

But also I've, I've asked, the kids, you know, what do you want our relationship to be like when you're an adult? You know, I asked them when they were ten, five, you know, at five, they all wanted to marry Darren, but,

And that's that was short lived.

But, you know, they were able to articulate. I want us to go for lunch. I want us to go for the movies. I want us to text. I want us to, you know, hang out on the phone. I want us to watch TV together, play games together. Okay, well, so if that's what we end up as, how do we get there? I think that I think that's what. Yeah.

And our 27 year old daughter was having, she called us this morning to come over for coffee and she comes in and then she's just saying, oh, I love hanging out with you guys. There's nothing better I would want to do than to hang out with you guys. And on the weekend they call up, we want to play games, we want to do stuff. And so in our life now, they are our friends and we did not make enemies of them when they were children. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very, very cool. You don't hear about that a lot like, in my office anyway. And your kids? Me too. But it's sort of like everybody has complaints about their parents. Like, every every single 100% of my clients are complaining about their parents at some level, whether they were too good or not good enough. And so I think it's very cool that you can.

Well, they what they complain about us somewhat, right.

Oh well, what's that joke? You know, my kids love me so much. I'm all they talk about with their therapist.

Yeah.

If they had a complaint.

Well, they would talk to us. They do talk. Yeah, I do think, you know, I guess we don't really know if there are things they're holding on to or not talking, but.

Yeah. Yeah.

You're not you're not, in distress, like with all five of them. You have like a relationship that you can kind of go. Yeah. So it.

Yeah. And then the other thing we decided to do for our life as far as, like, thriving with our kids is, we realize the need for fun and adventure in our life, was something that you can't neglect. And so we had we actually planned midlife crisis.

Yeah, we had a few.

We just said, hey, we need them. We need to reinvent ourselves. So we would try scuba diving. That didn't work out. Then we tried off road, Jeep and then we tried motorcycling and got took lessons. But we always realized that it wasn't enough to just run a home. We had to have fun for us to be good. We had to have fun with each other.

And and very much that concept of, you know, oxytocin is released when we have shared novel experiences. And so we make sure we have lots of shared novel experiences. We don't always walk in the same places, we don't hike the same hikes. We we go to different restaurants. We, we, have different friend experiences. Every time we went out. Jeep was a shared novel experience. Every time we get on our motorcycles, it's a shared novel experience, in that we don't know what's going to happen. It's an adventure. And and even when stuff goes super sideways, like some of our favorite stories to tell would be like, remember that one where we're driving to Saskatchewan, we have this kid with a broken leg that just moved in with us and has these huge anxieties and behavioral issues, and then the van breaks down and and then.

A VW van, this.

Weird, this guy shows up and he's got a rope so he can. And then we ended up and then and then, you know, they just wandering through these, you know, hard things that don't happen. And we.

Had to hook the rope up to our, accelerator at the back of the van to pull the accelerator to.

Work over top of all the luggage over the top of the car to.

Drive. And then we went back to McDonald's. Someone brought us a part. We put the part on onto the Jeep and then.

Up in.

The van, and then a tour bus came through and.

Gave us money. If they felt sad for us.

We got about $80 an American because they felt so pathetically.

Sad for us. And then we go to push start the van and we can't get it started. We're pushing it through the streets of Hope and and we finally get to the end of this road and there's nowhere to go, and we can't turn this thing around. And then I look over across the street and there's this house and this huge, jacked up Jimmy, you know, truck in the yard. And and I'm like, oh, I bet you that guy's got booster cables. And I bet he could start the van and so I go knock on the door in this huge. And I do mean huge, intimidating biker dude opens up. He's got like a bare chest and a leather vest and literally he's got an eyepatch.

I love.

It. And and I'm like, we're so broken down over there on the other side of the street. Can you help us? He totally got us on the road. But like, that was a really difficult experience. Yeah, but it was fun because we were in it together and. Yeah. And I think I.

Your life.

In all of this, I would say the theme has been our friendship. Like we have always nurtured our friendship and made sure that we are. Yes, if we're good, we are very aware the rest of it we will figure out. But if we're not good, that's not okay.

Yeah. So we've played well together and we've broken down well together.

So and often and often.

I have so many questions. Back to when you said we, we planned or rescheduled midlife crisis. Yeah. Like, were they crises or were they just.

We were kind of like.

Heading them.

Off. You know, you know, often as therapists, we know that people get to this magical age or whatever it is for them, and they're like, yeah, this isn't really working for me anymore. And I'm not super happy. And so I'm going to like, you know, get divorced and leave the kids and shave my head and buy a Porsche and, you know, join some hippie commune or something. And we're like, okay, so if that's going to happen, let's be in charge of this. How about we like have a total meltdown, but we do it while we're buying jeeps and like hanging out together. And, you know, sometimes I've joked like, Darren, if you ever get super mad at me and you're like, going to leave me, I'm totally going to let that happen. But also I'm coming with you. So I am also leaving this life that you're not happy with.

Well, I think also there was a moment where we were too caught up a little bit in school and kids and getting our businesses started. That I did. I did reproach you one time and say that we were I was not having as much fun. And we said, we we just it was a bit of a crisis as far as like, we can't we got to play more and we just intentionally play. And we called them crisis.

Yeah, they weren't really crises, but it was planned like, okay, we need excitement in our life.

When are you. Well, like you said, when we're good, things are good. And when we're good, we're going to make it. When do you have stories about when you're not good or when do you have periods that you can kind of go, oh yeah, this was uniquely dark or uniquely challenging or uniquely we didn't do we didn't do us very well here.

Yeah. I would say the first seven years of our marriage were tough. I mean dare you for me. Yeah. You were, I was married, I.

Was very happily married. Yeah.

But you know, just the way that, that I was raised, very, I in survival mode, I learned to make myself very small and figure out how to read everybody around me and make everybody else happy, and I did that very, very successfully. And apparently I even had you fooled. But but, you know, just got so unhappy part partnered with, you know, postpartum depression, undiagnosed. So I didn't know, you know, I, I believed my reality as I was perceiving it and it not knowing that it was potentially skewed. And so, you know, we were in couples counseling for a year. And that was really hard, bringing in foster kids that had behavioral challenges and attached that was.

A.

Sign was really hard and brutal. And, you know, we've we've lost some friends, although those have been hard times. I wouldn't say they've been at our ours. You know, our son in law just passed away. That's been hard but not dark. As in we've still, you know, kept our foundation solid throughout.

Yeah. I think when we, the days of the early days of fostering and having a family of five, the early days I was.

Alone, you.

Felt like trapped in your own home at times. You felt like I was the fun, good guy and you were the, the.

Yeah. But also I was being asked or required to parent in a way that wasn't natural for me. Yeah. You know, like, the kids needed structure. So I learned how to do that. But I am not a super structured person. I'm really spontaneous, intuitive, and I kind of go with my feeling and the vibe and I think this kid needs this. So that's what I'm going to do. A bit of a hippie that way. But like, you know, we were taught it had to be, you know, the bedtime routine starts at 630, and by 8:00 it's in bed. And they can be reading a book or playing with their toys, but the door is shut. And like, there just were so many rules. And that was super hard.

Yeah. And I also remember you saying, because like we talked a bit about, you were tired of being the bad cop kind of thing. And I remember you saying, I'm just going to stop doing it. I'm just going to be the fun person. And you literally did. And then that shift, it's like I jumped in and had to be more of the hard person and you start to it like it was. And I really remember like, oh, I have to tell them to what to do or to be the one that's going to disappoint them. And I it actually helped a lot, because I think I did jump in more because you resisted doing all that. And I think it was very purposeful.

Well, and I remember once we had this conversation, oh, you're on my hair, where, you know, I said, why don't you why don't you? And this is critical, I now know, but you know, how come you don't, you know, jump in and tell them to stop fighting? Or how come you're not the one who's and he and you were like, you know, seriously, I'm probably 30s behind you. Like, if you if you just didn't s probably in about 30s I'd be on it. And I'm like touching. That's interesting. That was that.

So you just waited longer and then I did it up and and then sometimes I would get super frustrated but. And then they all like you better now.

It's true.

It's true.

She's I'm irresistible.

You're back to resist or something? Yeah. They like me too. But they definitely like her better.

What about. Okay, so what about in the empty nest period? Did you do you have you weathered harder or darker periods in the empty nesting time? Oh. Or did you protect yourself? Did you put enough buffer in place.

That you did nesting time?

Well, the only thing that comes to mind, actually, is like when we have spent a lot of time together and I've always said that, connection for us has a shelf life. I don't know if that's true for everyone, but, like, we, we work hard during the week, and we're good with that because we know that, you know, the weekends coming and we're going to hang out and we're going to reconnect again. So all good. But you know, I think a couple years ago when you started writing, going on motorcycle trips. Yeah. And I would be at home, I noticed that when he came back, even if we had communicated or texted or talked while he was away from time to time, when he came back, it was like he was this strange person, and I was like, oh, and we weren't sync, at all.

And so we kind of informally figured this ritual, like, okay, we need to do this, like, Spock mind meld thing, you know, like, okay, we are unconnected, and now we're going to reconnect. Like, we made a bit of a joke in a ritual about it. But, if if before we figured that out, it would be like we were disconnect. We would come home and we would be, like, bickering and like, get clean up here. Stuff like, what are you doing?

And there's irritability. Irritability. Yeah.

So those would have been some, some things we had to navigate. And then we became empty nesters. And then it it just was like okay, this is what we do.

We yeah, I think we purposely noticed, our lack of reuniting was the way we did. It was not good. And also when we did a holidays, at first there'd be a lot of expectations that we didn't talk about, and so then there'd be high expectations. And informally, we had ideas of how the holiday was supposed to go, and then it wouldn't go that way. And we get frustrated. And now we just say, what do we want out of this holiday or this weekend before we even get to.

It, or this day? Like, what's your intention for the travel day to, you know, wherever we're going? Oh, God. Well, I just want to kind of, like survive the plane trip.

So I got to we now kind of overcommunicate because we are very poor communicators in a way. Like we miss communicate all the time. So we have to overcommunicate because we think we can read each other's minds or we can't. So we've gone into a lot of trouble by assuming what you, we, each of us wants out of our days and our weeks. And so now we just check in more often.

Yeah.

I think I know the answer to this question. My most adaptive grandkids. Yep.

We do. We have three, a ten year olds. Well oh my gosh, she turned 11. And then we have, five minutes. Well, he's about to be five and an about a three year old. Yeah.

And they live in Saskatchewan, which is a long ways away.

So we don't see them much.

No, it's so we can't really speak to the grandparents that babies sit and do all that stuff.

Well, there's just this, I think that part of the, part of the reality of getting married is this shift, the identity shift. Right? I'm a person, and now I'm a wife. I'm a person. Now I'm a husband, you know? And then I'm a wife and a husband, and then we have children, and now I'm a parent. And that is an identity shift that people have. If they don't do it on purpose, they it's a challenge. Like if they don't like, navigate and understand the kind of the consequences and the impact of that identity change, it's a big deal. But you sounds like you guys haven't quite had to wrap your heads around that. The shift to grandparent like, you haven't had that, identity as part of your, way to.

Be. I would agree, I would agree that has been tricky. We always keep saying we got to be better grandparents. We need to phone the kids more. We need to respect them, and then we don't because we get, you know, we forget because.

Because we like each other so much. Yeah yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We yeah, we.

Know the last people to do much better job than us, that's for sure. So we feel kind of crappy. But I mean, we're not the doting grandparents. So yeah, one of our kids wants to have a child that lives near us. Or by near us, I mean on our property, but not in her house. She lives in a tiny house on our property. Yeah, and she wants to have a child in the tiny house. And, we, she wants us to be involved in helping out and stuff like that, and we're very excited about that, so we'll get a chance.

Yeah. Yeah. Proximity is a thing, though, for sure.

Yeah. I want to come back to this phrase and just see if it does anything to you or the people who are listening, because when you said it, I was like, I know exactly what you're talking about, but I bet a bunch of people did it, which is we were pushing this van through the streets of Hope. Like Hope is a town near you. You and I were up there and we were coming back to your house from Vancouver, and we kept seeing these signs for hope. And in this moment, as Americans, we were like, yeah, we want to go there, whatever that is, we're going to that town. But, like, how do you, how do you think about the idea of, like, pushing your van through the streets of Hope? Literally, metaphorically. Like, is that a thing for you?

Yeah, there is a metaphor there, isn't there?

You know, I was like.

I, I would have to I would have to say I am a big believer on the reality that you choose to believe is the one that's real for you.

Okay.

And so if I believe that we have all the things we need to to be a strong couple and have a great friendship and a great relationship, then that's our target, right? You know, if you're okay, you use this example recently, like if you're riding your motorcycle down the road and you're like coming around a corner and there's a bit of, you know, a drop off on the side over here, like if you're like, oh, I don't want to drop off. I don't want to go over the edge, you know, guess where you're going to go, because that's what you're looking at. Right? But if you are constantly thinking, we're good, we're going to figure this out. We have what it takes. We have all of the building blocks. And we've always joked, like, you know, one day we might lose everything and we'll have to live in a van down by the river.

And, you know, that has always stayed in my head, and I know that I would be fine. We would be okay. Right. And so there's this, being able to tap into the positivity of, we will create whatever our reality is going to be, and we'll figure out how to do it. We are both resilient, strong human beings, and I like the life that he would help to create. And I know he likes the life that I helped to create. So between the two of us, we have good ingredients for good stuff. And we will, we we feel.

Hope. I think also, we grew up with storytellers and we always want what is the story we're going to tell about this. So we always whenever we're in anything, we're always thinking there's a story here that we want to tell. What story do we want to tell? And it can be a story of us having a fight, but then fixing it, or it can be a story of us not having a fight, and it could win. Amazing. But either way, there's a story and we'll turn it into something that was that was going to be hopeful. Yeah. And positive.

Yeah. One thing I identify with you guys with is, not that you don't fight, but that you've, that when you fight, you're really good at repair, like, you, you tend to like, really prioritize, like, okay, what's the way back here? And do you have a is there a secret? I mean, you might have already mentioned it, but like, what's the secret to repair as far as you know?

You know, I would say the secret is that we do it, so much that it's not even a question in my mind that we will get to it. And so if we had like, you know, suppose Darren says something that pissed me off right now and I'd be like, I don't feel this urgency to have to fix it because you know, a we're busy having a really fun time with you, but also like the weekends coming and like at some point on the weekend, I'd be like, so, you know, this thing you said, that kind of hurt my feelings and, and, and Darren will be like, oh, do we need to do an aftermath?

Yeah, we totally need to do a repair conversation here. And then we will. And sometimes, you know, maybe the repair conversation is harder than we thought it was going to be. Here goes a little sideways. And then we say, this isn't going so well. How about we pick this up later? Or how about we pick this up again tomorrow, and then we go away and we're thinking about, okay, I wish I could have said this better. Oh, yeah. And that's not even what I think. What I think is this. And what I feel is this. And so how can I say that in a way that he is going to hear me? And oh, and because we've done these conversations so many times, I know what his triggers are. And so I can I can kind of step in with compassion.

Well, you did that in motivation when you told me, but my trigger was in the midst of our fight.

Yeah. Just being able to say like, this sounds a little bit like when you talked about you as a kid and your coach throwing an ice cream cone at your head and feeling so humiliated, you know.

Make the wrong. Did you see something? Yeah. I didn't see it coming.

And so is this kind of what's happening for you. And so because we've done this conversation so many times, I know that about him. And he knows for me, I mean, almost every single time. It's like my trigger is I don't matter. And so he can be like, you're kind of feeling like the way I said that made it seem like you didn't matter, right? Yeah, totally. You're nailing it. So, you know, having this strong knowledge of who we are, even in conflict, it's like, well, if it's not going well today, let's just talk about it tomorrow, it'll be fine.

I think it's we've stretched that muscle so much. I think what you're asking is what helps is the repair muscle has been used so much. We do it autopilot now. But which I worked on in the gym. On repair.

Yeah, but you do it without urgency.

Go ahead. We have. We have always said, even if, like, stuff's not going well, we've still always wanted to connect while playing. And so if we're having an argument about something that's not going well, you know, like, I can't talk about this. No, I don't want to talk about this either. Okay. But do you want to go classical? Yeah, I totally do.

Let's. Yeah.

And then we're done.

Yeah. I always say like the best conversations and something like. So do I get some ice cream?

Yeah, right.

Even if it's a fight like or you know sorry. Oh. Oh my goodness. Look at the time. We got to get some ice cream so we can get out of here like. Yeah. And then you have enough. Yeah. Equity built up that you don't have to finish the fight right now.

And I think the big thing is knowing each other's triggers through having a lot of conflicts. Yeah. And and then the repairs go better because you kind of have a theme. There's nothing new. The fights are always exactly the.

Yeah that's good. So learning yours is I don't matter. And I might have missus Darren do you.

Have on mine is like missing the message like I grew up ADHD and so was always missing some essential, cue that I wasn't paying attention to that all of a sudden. Now I'm in a very, either embarrassing situation or I'm messing up or something. And so even with Laverne and I, it's not picking up on a cue. And then I'm disappointed. I've missed it, and it triggers me. And now I want to fix it. And she's not ready to fix it, because. And so it's just a really vicious circle at times. So yeah.

And one thing I heard you say that I my like, my ears flared up a little bit because I was like, oh, I can see how that could not go. Well is the part where you say something like, oh, well, this is you just thinking that you don't matter, or this is you thinking that you missed, like where you kind of weaponize the other's, like, vulnerability versus it sounds like Laverne, when you.

Said it.

Earlier, earlier you were aware that sometimes Darren and I.

Might have said it in a different way.

Is this something is this the thing that you're is this it like the the not mattering piece? Like it sounds like there's a, like a, like a consent built in to, to talk. Okay.

That's a good point, you know.

Well, yeah. I mean, if it was ever weaponized, boy, that would be tough to come back from.

Yeah.

And we just never crossed that line. We never. Yeah.

You know, we never weaponize it.

Yeah. And so there does have to be you have to be able to come from a place of compassion and softness. You know, this this feels like that is are we kind of tapping into that right now versus like, oh, there you go again. You know, just.

In the room that's where I could get in trouble. Yeah.

Yeah. No that would not be cool.

Yeah. Now another cool thing that like, whenever I've messed up or something like that and she said, and I always say she has a line that she uses, I say, well, it wasn't my intention to do this and I'm really sorry I did this. And she says, Darren, I know it's never, ever your intention to harm me or hurt me. Like I get the benefit of the doubt from her conscious. And I know it's not your intention and it still hurt me.

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. But I know who I'm talking to I'm talking to my friend. Yeah, yeah. Well, I really value your friendship. I value. And I admire your friendship with each other. And, I want I hope that we can continue to share and adventures together. And I guess we get to do that at least in November. I'm not going to attend that thing, but I'm going to swing by and, like, make an appearance. So we make sure I get to, you know, hang out for just a second. So thanks. Thanks for making time. And thanks for being part of this, this little adventure called marriage therapy Radio. I really appreciate you doing given given us a minute.

You're a good interviewer. You're a good interviewer. I can see why you do these podcasts. A lot.

Shucks.

You let you let people talk. You ask the right questions. You're curious. It's good. Yeah. It's fun. All right, man. Okay, thanks.