The Women Who Cheat And The Betrayed Men w/Adam & Judith Nisenson

Adam and Judith Nissenson, thank you for coming on to Marriage Therapy Radio. I'm excited to talk to you. You have at the core of your like sort of forward-facing identity this idea of being the betrayal shrink, and I know that you both have sort of expertise in that space, but I'd love just to hear a little bit about who are you? How do you make sense of you? Who are the Nissensons as you understand them right now?

Who are the Nissensons? I would be curious for you to go first.

Well, I am the new Nissensen of the family, if that makes sense. So you're the one that has more experience being a Nissensen.

True. That doesn't make me better at it though.

No, no, actually I'm the, I'm the best Nissensen from what I've heard. I'm the favorite.

You have the least Nissensen baggage.

Exactly.

But go ahead.

Yeah. Well, who are we? As especially in the betrayal work, we both work with Betrayal. Adam has a niche working with the betrayed men, and I work with the female betrayers.

Okay, so that's the work side. Personal side—

Do you do that? Uh, sorry, does that mean a couple comes in and their, their situation is exactly that? She betrayed him and the two of you split up and tag team this process? Is that how that goes?

It can happen that way, or I want to say more often.

More often. That's my hope. I, I like doing that because I feel like—

We do love the couples.

We love tag teaming that. aspect of it.

Yeah, but really, people find us usually with our independent individual work we do. So often a woman will reach out, find Judith, because the truth is there's really no real resources out there for women who are the cheaters. We don't talk about that, and we don't really talk about men getting cheated on. So those individuals find us, and then later we end up integrating them into doing couples stuff.

But You know, I have so many questions I want to ask you about all of that, but I do care about the two of you. I want to hear your story. Yeah, uh, let me park this question, which is, so you have a niche which is in the betrayal space, but you have a sub-niche which is that you work like with this particular dynamic as it shows up where she betrays him.

Correct.

Um, I would love to learn at some point the difference between that sub-niche and say the example of he betrays her, but So park that question, we'll come back to it. But tell me a little bit about the two of you.

You go first.

You want me to go? Okay, sure. So, well, this is our second marriage. And I think actually, maybe this sounds conceited, I don't know, but I love our creation story.

I do.

You do too? Okay, so we'll both be conceited on that. But we, Judith and I, we were friends. We started as friends, and we knew each other for 7 years until I finally got the bravery to ask her out. Um, I always kind of had a crush on her. I thought she was beautiful and cute. And, but we had this friend group, and also I was kind of, I was still in my marriage, but it was over because of my—

He was still legally married.

I was still legally married. My ex-wife, there's, that's a longer story I won't get into on a podcast, but Um, my ex-wife had cheated on me and the marriage basically was over. She didn't do the work or want to reconcile, and we had a young kid. So we, I chose to stay longer than a lot of people do. But, but during that time we were just friends and we were in this friends group. And it was like in the friends group, we would always, everyone was married but us. And, but we naturally always gravitated towards each other. We always hung out, sat, talked. And so we just had this sweet, nice, simple, Friendship. Friendship. And it would go on and off depending upon when we would see each other or the group would meet or go out of town somewhere together.

So maybe bi-yearly, twice a year on average?

Maybe a little bit more.

Yeah.

And then our mutual friend who was kind of like the ringleader of all the people, he always knew I had a crush on Judith and he would always, she's not ready, she's not ready. And I'd be like, well, Damn, when's this woman gonna be ready? I'm ready. But anyways, we were dating other people and stuff. And then finally one day the stars aligned and I asked her out. And I live in— I was living in Utah, still do. And Judith lives in Houston where I'm from. And so I flew down to Houston and we went out on a Friday night to dinner.

That was it?

And literally, yeah, literally, like we only had that Friday night planned and we made an agreement that we would just go to dinner we would see how this works with the intention of, like, maybe dating or more. But if it didn't work, we were like, all right, we're adults. We can totally, like— like, if it just doesn't work, that's fine. We can still be in our friend group. We can admire each other, love each other in a different way. And that was it. And so I was like, yeah, let's do it. And literally after that first date, we didn't leave each other the whole weekend. And in our second— second night, what did I say to you?

I'm all in.

I just— yeah, we were at this restaurant with mutual friend and his wife, and I just said, I'm all in. And I think you almost choked on whatever she was chewing at that moment.

It took me a moment.

But like, I just, I don't know, Zach, do you know that like thing? Like when you know, you just know.

Yeah.

And I, and I was so not scared. It was like I felt like I had waited my whole life to kind of feel that.

Yeah. It didn't sound like you knew in 24 hours. It sounded like you knew in 7 years and 24 hours.

Yeah. Well, what did you, what I love your saying when you, Which one? No, the one about it always was me.

Oh, it's always been you, even when it wasn't.

Yeah, that's right.

That's part of my vows to him. It's like, it was always you, even when it wasn't.

Even when it wasn't, it was. And I kind of, I feel the same way. It's just kind of easy. But I knew, like, I just knew. And I, and, and the other part, I think, you know, being older, right, in my 50s, and also divorced and all that, and being in an unhealthy marriage, in a marriage that had betrayal in it and stuff like that. I just, I'm kind of at this place where I was like, screw it. I mean, I'm going for it. Like, life's short. Like, what's like, look, I love telling my clients, like, when we find love, it cracks us open. And when we lose love, it cracks us open. And I'd rather just be cracked open. I mean, then I know I'm alive, right? Yeah, part of the experience. So that's the Cliff Notes version of of how we ended up together.

How did you get there, Judith? Like, how did you get to through your first marriage? Like, did you have the— are you the character that's in your, in your professional? Are you the cheater in a previous relationship that came out, or—

Not in that particular relationship. Um, just, I was a cheater always. I didn't really— and if you follow my stuff, like, what I mean by cheater is a woman who did not know who she was, therefore serving other roles for other people. And in part of doing those roles, yeah, I sheeted or sheeted. See, I'm saying cheater.

It's a cheat.

Yeah. Yeah.

You're saying she calls them a cheater.

A she, 'cause she, she, she, a woman, a cheater. So I sheeted, I cheated. Yeah. But you cheated. Yeah. I cheated.

Well, say more about that. Like in certain terms of like, how do you define it? Like differentiate for me between a cheater and a sheeter as you have crafted that for yourself.

Um, a cheater is a woman who first of all betrays herself.

Okay.

By not knowing who she is or her roles because she hasn't defined them for herself. And therefore it's unintentional. It's part of the work. It's part of her discovering who she is. A cheater to me is someone who intentionally cheats.

Yeah.

And in my work, what I find is that I have a lot of cheaters. It's women who just simply don't realize how they ended up betraying their loved ones.

Yeah. So tell me how this lands for you. I, when an affair comes into here, and this is my office behind me, when an affair comes in here and we'd start doing the work, a lot of times the partner who's been harmed will say, I didn't know she was capable of that, or didn't know he was capable of that. I thought I married this guy, but I married this other person. Turns out I married somebody else. And then what I usually will do is I'll turn to the person who has been involved in the affair. And I'll say, hey, if I'd asked you a year ago, would you ever have an affair? What would you say? Like, absolutely not. No, there's no way I would have an affair. I go, oh, so in the last year, you have become someone that you didn't know you were. You have become somebody that you were unfamiliar with. This is the dynamic that you're describing. Is that what you're saying?

100%. Yeah, you nailed it.

Okay, so how do we— okay, let's just get to it. Like, um, What is the most, uh, let's say controversial thing you could say about betrayal on a podcast that people are gonna go, huh, I didn't, I didn't see that coming. I don't, I didn't, I know, cuz a lot of people think they know exactly what they think.

Always.

You know, so what, mm-hmm, what is the most surprising thing that people—

That's a really big loaded question and it could go many different directions.

Yeah.

Well, we got time.

Yeah. Awesome. I love that we have time. Well, in our world, the fact that it was she that cheated is usually one of the biggest things because women are incapable of, or we shouldn't, or there's all this morality and societal expectations around it.

Well, can I—

Go ahead. Yeah.

I mean, actually, I think I have multiple things I can throw out that I think could be— that might piss some people off. Right.

But cool. Let's do it.

But the first one that, you know, look, look, I'm a betrayed man, right? I work all day with men who've been cheated on. And one of the things that gets me, pisses me off, is when men degrade women who are cheaters. Like, they make them like they're just the lowest part of the earth and the dirt on the bottom of their shoes.

So you're talking about the double standard?

The double standard, right? But when a man cheats—

This is men get to have sex with whoever they want, but as soon as women do it, they're a whore. Exactly.

Yeah, every word I don't want to say on this podcast, right?

Yeah.

And so—

Can I say that? Am I allowed to?

You can say it. It's your podcast.

My podcast. Yes.

But yeah, I mean, for me, that double standard pisses me off because a woman who cheats is actually not any different than a man who cheats. It's the society norms that are put on people. And I think that adds— look, women are people too, and they have a right to heal, and they have a right to grieve, and they have a right to be in their shame. And do their work and understand.

Yeah.

society does for a woman who cheats, I think is degrading and it's wrong. Yeah, ostracize her. Yeah, and I tell men all the time, like, like, get your ass off of Reddit. Stop going in, stop going into those dark spots of Reddit and finding hate, because those other men in there, they haven't done their work. They're bitter, they're spiteful. And you know what? They're probably not any better, right, than, than the, the Trash.

You mean they didn't get better?

Well, I mean, they're just not any better as a person because they're not doing the work. They'd rather sit in spite and anger and judge and judge. So that's my first one. The second one is it pisses me off how society with men who've been cheated on— when I— my betrayal journey started 13 years ago, and I mean, there's still not much out there, right? I actually— my book came out almost 2 years ago. It's the first and only book written for men who've been cheated on. Right. Being in the psychology world, don't you think that's kind of ridiculous when you look at how many books— there's so many books on infidelity and cheating, but no one wrote that book.

Yeah.

And what's the message?

Right. So I'm waiting for everyone else to catch up because we need support. Men need support. I can't be the only one. Right. I like being the only one, but I don't want to be the only one because I can't handle it. And I want the conversation to happen. And so what pisses me off is how men believe that they're alone in this, that how much shame it puts to a man and his ego, and how I watch other men put men down who've been cheated on. And comments like, oh, you couldn't keep your woman happy, or you're not much of a man. That's your fault. Right? Like, these are the things that irk me. These are the things that kind of keep me up at night, right? Like, I want— like, what happened to love and compassion? And what happened to us all just being, you know, I don't know, we're all actually fragile at the end of the day.

And flawed.

And flawed, right? And so I don't know if I'm answering the question you have, but these are topics, these are things I think That we don't talk about when it comes to betrayal.

And I think, you know, the purpose of any content that I put out is I always want 2 things to happen. I want people to go, oh, I never thought about it like that before. So here's a brand new angle on that. And the other one is I want them to have something that they can actually apply or do or think about or like move the needle, like actually do to move the needle. And so I'm interested in this dynamic. I, it's occurring to me that there's a trope that I'll run by you and you tell me what you think is that men would rather their partners have an emotional affair than a sexual affair.

Yeah.

And women would rather their partners have a sexual affair than an emotional affair. Yeah. Have you— do you come across this? Like, what do you think about this? Yep.

Yep. Do you want to go?

Well, I think in my world, it depends. It's nuanced because I have had women who've only had emotional affairs and they're still working with me and their partners are extremely disturbed by it. So I would say it's 50/50 on my end, and those are just exclusively women that I've worked with. I don't know about the rest of the world.

Yeah, look, I, I think that trope, or whatever you want to call it, I think like stereotypes, there's always some truth in them. Of course, you know, I, I do see more often the guys I work with, they're, um, they're— the emotional affair doesn't bother them as much as the physical. And part of what I notice with men is men, we tend to be more territorial, right? Like, her body's mine, like those kind of things. So a lot of unhealthy things happen after that, like when physical intimacy starts back up again. But I see that a lot. But, you know, I tell my guys, I actually think the emotional affair is the one you should worry about the most.

That's scarier.

And I know maybe I'm not wired like every other guy out there. And just being a therapist, I'm aware of this. But I think as we do the work, guys start to realize, they're like, oh, crap. Because the relationship— no relationship's built solely— the depth of a relationship is the intimacy. And that's not sex, right?

It's emotional.

It's the connection. It's feeling safe. It's knowing what's going on in each other's lives. It's connection. And I mean, sex is— physical intimacy is important. But yeah, but I see that. I mean, I see it more on my side where guys are more disturbed at the physical than the emotional.

Oh, and I think I have one actually. I have one that would piss people off. Women don't cheat for the sex.

Okay.

The men will argue up and down that that's the only reason they cheat. And that ain't necessarily so. So that might piss somebody off. It's not true. It doesn't happen.

Why do they cheat?

Sex becomes a transactional byproduct for them to receive what they're seeking. And it's usually validation, them being seen, attention, emotional.

Yeah.

The women tend to do more of the emotional kind of affairs because they're not getting that from their husbands. Right. I think that's, that's the work, right? A healthy relationship, you have to be emotionally present.

Right.

And if you're not, I noticed just doing this for years, right, that, that's usually the woman's excuse, right? Or their reasoning or what brought them to that place was they weren't being seen or validated. They didn't feel loved. And the second that door's cracked and if someone starts giving them that attention, am I right?

Yeah, 100%.

Right. Then it's like intoxicating. I think, I think male or female, that's intoxicating.

They feel alive all of a sudden. They're like, oh my God, where has this feeling been? And they don't want to lose it. So it's like, okay, so if I have— yeah, I'll have sex with you.

It's part of it, but it's part of the transaction.

It's more transactional. It's the transaction to receive what I'm already receiving. I don't want to lose that feeling.

Interesting. I'm thinking of 2 things that I want to speak to. One is that, uh, what you're describing is kind of what clinically gets articulated through the Gottman Institute. And it's the idea that betrayal or the affair is the result of the betrayal. It's not the betrayal, it's the result of the betrayal. And the betrayal is of the attention system.

Yep.

It's the system of bids and turning, they call it. So it's the betrayal of that. It's that breaking down that then is the top of the slippery slope. The other thing that I love, or I've noted, is that I've been around his research for almost 20 years and, or over 20 years. But I've only seen him say one thing that was 100%. So there's— it's 96% or 33% that or 12% this. And it's that 100% of relationships that are failing are failing because of betrayal. And sometimes that betrayal is an affair, but often it's just a betrayal of the expectation that was legitimately established that then somehow didn't get honored or respected. And I wonder if that's if you're bumping up against that as part of your work with these couples.

Yeah. I wanna say this, betrayal's betrayal.

No matter what.

No matter what.

Yeah. What is it?

Well, betrayal's betrayal, right? So in other words, like what you were just posing, Zach, what, what, um, so I had, I had a gentleman I was working with last year that he did not know of his wife cheating on him or anything like that. But, but what happened is she basically, like, short version, if you will, like, one day she came home and said, I don't think I love you anymore, and I'm done with this marriage. And she moved out that week and then proceeded with divorce filings. He felt betrayed, right?

Yeah.

She never, and as far, and he's pretty sure he never cheated on her, didn't, right? Um, I have another guy, uh, actually I've had 2 guys like this that not any known cheating, but—

Affair.

Affairs, right? Emotional or physical, right? Affairs. But the stories or the bill of sales they thought they were getting, like they learned things about their partner's past that they are struggling with reconciling with. And then, well, who are you? And I felt lied to. So I have, I've had multiple cases where men like like that where there was not an actual in the course of their marriage, but—

It was before.

Things before their marriage, and they're having a hard time processing that or accepting them or seeing their partner, and they feel betrayed. And that's when I tell guys, well, betrayal's betrayal. I don't get to judge the impact of what it is on you. Like, you don't get to judge the impact of what my journey was like on me. It's not a competition.

Okay, so what do you do? What do what do two of you do? What do what do two of you do to protect your relationship in ways that you maybe didn't the first time around? Like what's the what's the practice that you're preaching?

Okay, I have a voice.

All right, say more about that.

I before I would keep everything inside. What was the point? I was taught that silence was the way to go, and he should have read my mind.

And basically, and and Zach. I know what's on her mind.

Because I am, I am now sharing. Before, I would withhold. In my previous marriage, I wouldn't really share, or if I did, I felt like it never landed. Therefore, nothing changed. So I just stopped, right? Yeah. And, and then I, one day I just stopped using my voice. What's the point? I lost it.

And is that you being a cheater? Like you, when you stopped using your own voice, that's the beginning of your own internal betrayal?

No, I think that was way before. Uh, and then just to be clear, I never really cheated sexually, it was always emotionally. And then what that, what that means is that I always had attention everywhere. I wanted like, and some of the relationships I would have in the past, like I always had this story that, oh, they can't fulfill every part of it. So I need to have many friends.

Yeah.

And each friend would provide, each friend would provide something different. And, but I knew what I was doing. Like, that's what I realized after doing the work. Like, No, I want it to feel seen. I wanted the attention. I wanted to feel loved and cared about, right? But why was I wanting those things? And then that's where I realized is that I didn't really love myself.

Yeah, well, that's what I was asking about, the she part, not the, not the she part, but the she part. Like, you, you losing your voice was the part of you betraying yourself and then not being able to advocate in ways that protected the relationship.

Correct. Yeah, that's the true part.

So you have a voice, which is cool. How did you come to that? Like, how did you—

A lot of work.

Did you have an aha moment? Did you have an epiphany? Like, what, what happened? Like, what was the, what was the work?

Um, well, I became a yogi. I did. First, I, I'm a— I was a fitness instructor for many, many years. I loved the anatomy and the body and how it worked. And then I was like, okay, I'm pretty good at the body system, the muscular system. Like, I need to do something. I was bored. So I was like, okay, I went into yoga training because I felt like the triad of the mind, body, soul— there was something there for me. And then that's when I started discovering me. Then I found other programs like Landmark Worldwide. I don't know if you're familiar with them.

I've heard of Landmark. Yeah.

Yeah. And I just took it on. I took it on. I took it on and I tried it on. And it took about 4 years of being in those trainings that I realized not who I was, but who I wanted to be. I realized that I had a choice in the creation of that, that I got to author that. And that's where my voice came because I chose it.

Okay, cool. And then Adam, what's your, like, what would you attribute, like, what is the new thing in this relationship that didn't exist for you before?

Hmm, there's a couple things, but I mean, I would say the first part is I allow myself to be loved, and I know I'm lovable. My first marriage, I felt like it was— there was— it was like an accounting system, if you will.

Tit for tat?

Yeah, yeah. And I just— and I never really truly felt safe. And also, I know, just like I know all the work Judith did, I did my work too, right? you know, my idea of what being a man was, I learned through that journey, that's not what my partner wants or any partner I think would want. I think, I think it was important to really kind of learn to learn vulnerability, learn my voice. I mean, the other truth was my ex-wife, I was, I was scared of her.

Mm-hmm.

And I was scared if I spoke my truth and stuff, she would leave me or wouldn't like my truth. So, I speak— wow, we speak our truth a lot.

Yeah, we do. It's awesome. I think it's great.

It's good. Sometimes it scares me still, right? But— and sometimes I don't like the truths that she has or I have, but I rather hear those truths and sit with them and be uncomfortable than the uncomfortable of the not knowing.

And pretending instead.

Pretending, yeah.

'Cause that's the damaging. I think that's what Gottman's talking about.

That's where the cracks start. Yeah, I just did a shit ton of work. Actually, I did the New Warrior, the Mankind Project. I got into that and became a leader in that. And then that propelled me into, I was always interested in psychology, but then going back to school and becoming a therapist. So, yeah.

So you would both say the work is taking care of me, taking care of my side of the street, getting ready, making sure that I am, I have integrity. And when I would talk about integrity, I usually mean architectural integrity. I mean, like I have firm spine and it's got the right kind of scaffolding, but that's the beginning of, of healing is— sounds like is the— is the thing that you connected to.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'll just say, like, as a therapist, I don't know what you see in your practice, but often I notice couples, when there's ruptures, they want to go right into couples therapy. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know.

Gotta work on the me before you can work on the we.

Yeah, because your couples sessions will end up being individual therapy. If you do you, and then you guys come together and you meet at this new place of who you are. That's, I think, how you start to create your new relationship. And that's— and I think the more you understand yourself, I think it's easier to understand your partner. And I think it's easier, like Judith was saying, is like to express yourself and to be in your truth.

Vulnerable. Yeah.

Yeah.

No matter how scary it is. I think a lot of us are just afraid of the discomfort. Being uncomfortable, we run away.

But yet we don't realize running away, you're still uncomfortable.

Yeah, you lose, and there's a lot at stake when you do that.

Yeah.

It just stays there. Yeah.

So what do you, what do you actually do? Do you have a practice for speaking your truth or is this part of how you're wired or how do the two of you, how do the two of you actually execute this?

You just tell me.

I, I, I, I learned that that's, if I don't share my truth, My other default's to hold it in. So I have a choice. And my— to be in integrity with myself, it's— I gotta share.

She just tells me, and sometimes it's shocking to my system. Like, there's, um, sometimes there's no filters. I mean, but that's just who she is. And, and actually, I've learned, you know, we haven't been married to that— what are we, like, 4 years? Yeah, we're gonna have 4 years soon. So I've just kind of been learning through these years that it's also— that's the other part is like my wound, right? Being a betrayed person, right? That's the other thing. I didn't know or really think I'd ever get married again, right? After you go through betrayal and then not reconciling and just not being, you know, I felt discarded, right?

Yeah.

Like the person that I loved then just didn't seem to care. Right? And so, I kind of thought I would never get married again. But one of the things Judith did was, I think, her brutal honesty. And also, like, I know that she loves me, but, like, she doesn't have to tell me. It's just through those actions.

Yeah.

Like, I always know where I stand. And when I sit and think about that, I'm like, you know, I'd rather know that she's pissed. I'd rather know that she's unhappy. I don't like it, but I'd rather know that. Right. And then I know where I stand or I know what I have to do. So I think sharing your truth is super important. And that's the part too that I think helps me actually—

To know where I'm at.

Feel safe. Right. And then the other part too is how do we keep it fresh? That wasn't really a question, but one of the things, we're adventurous.

Oh, yeah. We do a lot of stuff. We have a lot of fun. We work hard, but we play hard is what we do.

Yeah. And we make time just the two of us. Right? Really important. Um, and just, I think another cute thing we do, I guess it's cute, but every month we were married on October 1st. So the 1st of every month, we give ourselves a monthly anniversary card to each other. And we write, we write love letter, we write a monthly love letter to each other.

Yeah. And that started organically. It's not like I said, hey, I'm going to give you a card every month. Or he told me, it's like the first month and we both gave each other cards. And that was interesting. The second month we both did it. And then eventually we It's our thing now.

Yeah, 2-year streak.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it's, I think it's, I love, I think that's one thing also I would tell couples is it's easy to get stuck and stagnant and we get stuck and stagnant too. So you have to do things to make it fresh. You have to create new experiences and adventures together.

Get new rituals too.

Yeah, so those things I think keep things going.

All right, so there's a couple listening to the podcast. They they they connect immediately because she cheated on him, and they're like, "Oh, these are my people. I wanna I wanna work with them." And they they but they're little resistant. They don't have money, or they don't have time, or they don't have the courage right now. What's the one thing like he what's the one thing you have for him? What's the one thing you have for her that that begins to pivot their? Uh, their journey toward healing, from betrayal to healing? Like, where do, where do you start with these people?

I mean, I'm—

I would say psychoeducation. They need to understand what's happening to them.

What do you offer?

Oh no, no, he's asking. Yeah, psychoeducation. Yeah, I mean, I would, I would have them like go Google everything about betrayal trauma, the effects that it has.

But not, not on Reddit.

No, not on Reddit.

Okay, got it.

So yeah, I mean, so where's the right information? Is it you to come?

I mean, I would Yeah, I would tell the man, the man who's been cheated on, I would say, go get my book. Like, if you want— you know, one of the things I think about my book is I didn't write it necessarily from a clinical lens. I wrote it more from my actual being a therapist. Yeah, but also just being a betrayed man. And I break it down in every chapter. I talk about what I experienced.

Yeah, but go get my book because you'll find out that you're not alone.

not alone and giving you some ideas. And so you can start to process it and know you don't have to be in the shame and that, that, that you're not actually alone.

Listen to my podcast, Women Cheat Too. 100%. That's where I would lead them. It's free. There's over 50 episodes now. I'm really proud of it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Your podcast.

But she needs to learn something like recover your sense of self or you find your voice or or face the reality that this isn't about sex, or this isn't just a— this isn't about the thing. It's like a cigar is not just a cigar, right? It's, uh, right, there's a whole other thing going on here.

Yep. Well, my podcast is based on the cheaters concept that I created, and that is where I tell them, hey, yeah, you messed up, you did something wrong, and now let's try to figure out why. Yeah.

But I think there's, there's, look, today there's more. Not Reddit, right? There's our stuff, there's you, there's other podcasts.

Yeah, Absatz Podcast.

Yeah, Absatz has great stuff. You know, there's tons of great books written on betrayal by accredited licensed experts, right?

Yeah.

And I think those are your resources, people that actually know and that work in this and that people that You know, like, for me, and I know you're the same when I say this, is we don't urge people to get divorced, and we also don't— we also don't urge them to stay together, right? This work is, is we meet you where you're at and you lead us, right? And I think any good therapist coach is gonna do this process.

I'm sort of the same way. I'm not here to encourage you to get divorced or to stay together. I mean, I'm here to encourage you to show up.

Yeah.

And then from that space, from the place of being an adult, you can then make that decision. I think that Dr. Gottman's book, it's called What Makes Love Last, is actually his best book. It's not even his— it's not even a great— it is a good betrayal book, but a lot of people think it's his affairs book, but it's, it's not. It's his, it's his betrayal book. And it's, it's where that thing about 100% of all relationships are. And he does start with the attention system. And then of course I love, um, And I will point people toward Shirley Glass's book, Not Just Friends. Not Just Friends. Shirley Glass is Ira Glass's mom, if you're like a podcast person. She's dead now, but that's a great sort of psychoeducational summary of kind of the global view of what happened. And it's dispassionate, right? She's not there as a betrayed person. She's there as a clinician and a researcher. Um, so I like that one, What Makes Love Last and Not Just Friends. Uh, there's yours, which is called what?

A Man's Guide to Partner Betrayal.

A Man's Guide to Partner Betrayal. And do you have other, uh, texts that are low on your list here?

Yeah, on my website I have other books I've, I've written in small little workbooks.

I love Carol Sheets too. I don't know if you've heard of Help Him Heal, Help Them Heal, Help Her Heal. Carol the coach, she's big in the betrayal world.

Yeah, and Helping Couples Heal. She's got some great books. She's probably one— she's one of our favorite 'Cause her books are really workbooks. Yeah, they're workbooks. Book workbooks. So, yeah.

Well, and that's where it's, it's right there in the word, right?

Work.

You gotta do the work.

Gotta do it.

Um, all right. So, uh, uh, there's a couple, they're listening right now. They, they're, they're, they're hearing you tell me what I gotta do. And then they're like, I wanna work with you. How, where do they go? What do they, how do they find you?

womenswork.com.

womenswork.com.

Okay.

Yeah.

But, but tell me, Yeah.

Women's and then wrk.com. So the work is, there's no O in my work. It's just work. That's a little thing I like to coin. What work? Actually, he coined it. And, uh, and then I stole it. I stole it because he was men's work. So I took women's work and then I did bodies work and then couples work. And then, yeah. And then mine's, I'm, so we kind of evolved with the WRK because it's all work regardless. We're all growing.

That's not my betrayal. My betrayal stuff's betrayalshrink.com.

Yeah, right on.

Very cool.

And then cheaters.com too. So I have a domain under the—

If you Google us, we're easy to find.

Yeah, I know. I always tell people, I think the internet is hard— is undefeated when it comes to helping you find people. So if you— if they wanted to, uh, get to you, it wouldn't be terribly hard. But no, um, easy.

The other thing that I think you— because you said, what, what's the main thing that I would send that couple to? Also, they need to understand their communication styles. It's very important to understand the relational dynamic. Because what I find also is usually there was already a preexisting relational dynamic that caused the breakdown. So we kind of need to work on that too. And it's kind of hard on this side because usually what happens is everything gets tagged to her betrayal. No matter what, that's the reason we're here.

Yeah.

So open-mindedness for the male to Yeah, there's more here. It's not just a betrayal.

Adam, do you help your guys get upstream and, and realize that, like, uh, I don't know, I never want to say, and I would never say that it's like his fault, but like, what about those guys that are like, uh, having a hard time finding their own role or their own responsibility? Like, what is it that they— is that part of the jam for them?

Yeah, I mean, that's part of what I do with them. Yeah, not, not at the beginning, of course.

Yeah, right.

I think once We gotta stabilize them first.

Yeah. Get them stabilized, get them to a place where, you know, they can start to really sit with this. Um, but then down the road also, after they've figured out, are they staying or going, right? I think then, um, but I tell every guy, like, like, I, I like to use the phrase, I call it the gift of betrayal.

Right.

And people are like, what?

There's no—

and I'm like, yeah, there's a gift if you want it to be. Right. Otherwise, Why are you going through this? Like, like if it's gonna suck, at least let's have a goal at the end. And so I call it the gift of betrayal. And I think, you know, actually I just had my, one of my men's groups, uh, on Wednesday night and, and actually some of the guys were talking about like, I already can tell I'm becoming a better man, or I, Mm-hmm. I'm listening better. And so, yeah. And I, and later on with men, I will talk to them about, what your part is. Like, I know I had a part. Now, I didn't give her permission to cheat, right? I didn't encourage her, right? But I did— did I make some of the environment possible? Was I unconscious?

Avoidant?

Yeah.

The avoidance. Yeah.

And do I ever want to be like that again? Hell no. So if I don't do the work, there's no gift in this.

Yeah, I'm with you, man. I feel the same way. I feel like The betrayal is, it's just the, uh, it's like the evidence, not the, or what is it? It's the symptom, not the cause.

Not the cause.

Yeah.

Sort of thing. And, uh, and what, and the faster couples can realize that, the faster they have a chance to, to get better. But as soon as they, as long as they're objectifying the, the betrayal itself, it's, it's this giant roadblock. So.

Yeah. Well, I don't think healthy relationships have betrayal in them. Now, that doesn't mean someone doesn't have some mental illness or something like that, right? And then that does happen, but that's not necessarily a symptom of the relationship being unhealthy.

Yeah, it would be more of a capacity issue.

Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for flexing with me today. I'm going to head out of town and have a little bit of a long weekend. And, uh, but I'm glad to know you. We'll point people in your direction. If I can be of help to you in any way, I hope that you let me know. Yeah, and yeah, thanks again, Adam and Judith Nissensen. Nissensen.

Nissensen. It's all right.

Adam and Judith Nissensen. Love it.

Yeah, thanks for having us here.

It's all your fault, Judith, because you're the one who mispronounced it for me in the first place.

You pulled it out.

I told you not to do that.

I went to a wedding once. I went to a second wedding with some friends, and the woman was wearing a man. She was our friend. His name. Started with the same letter as her first husband's name, and so the entire time everybody was walking around saying the the original couple's name like oh da da da da. I don't want to out them here, but yeah no no don't have to. But her poor father was conducting the ceremony, and his muscle memory just yeah you know read the first husband, and I was like oh no. We all laughed about it though. So I guess the longer you think about a mistake ooh. Here's the meta lesson, right? If you're thinking about the mistake, you're more inclined to make it.

That's right. I tell my clients all the time, what you focus on expands.

Yeah, right on.

So choose differently.

Yeah. Well, thanks for having us.

Thanks, Zach.

I appreciate it. Of course.

Enjoy your weekend.