Married, Divorced, Remarried: How One Couple Rebuilt a Marriage From Scratch w/Neal & Rachel

Neil, Rachel, thank you so much for joining me this morning. Neil, you and I have talked before, um, and I'm excited to talk to you again. Your story fascinated me and your project fascinates me. So we'll learn a little bit more about that. But, um, Rachel, hi.

Hi.

Um, thanks for coming on. Uh, who are you? What's your, what's your thing?

Um, I am a mom of 3 kids.

Right on.

Um, a marketing director for the Air Force.

Okay.

And a wife.

What does the marketing director for the Air Force do?

So, I work with the 11th Force Support Squadron, and we, so we promote different programs on base to our single airmen and to the families that live on base, boosting morale. So, we just do a lot of advertising and marketing our programs.

That's very cool. So you're a mom of 3 kids. You guys are together. One of the things that's really fascinating to me, that story, if you're willing to talk about it, is Neil, I think if I heard you correctly, you were married to each other.

Yep. In 2008.

Then you got divorced.

Yes.

Yep. And then you got married.

2017. Yeah.

And then you got married to each other again.

Yes.

2019.

Yeah.

I have, I have some of these kinds of clients in my office from time to time. And when I tell people, I was like, oh yeah, I mean, I actually currently have a couple And they are in their 3rd legal marriage to one another. So they were married, divorced, married, divorced, married. They're doing okay now. But, um, but I'm fascinated by this thing because a lot of people come in and they're thinking about whether or not their marriage needs help. And then, you know, if it doesn't get help, then they end up divorced and blah. And that's the end. That's all we know. And then there's stories like yours where that happened. I don't— that happened. I'm really interested in what happened after 2017. Like, what is the thing that took you from it was broken and then somehow we decided to fix it again? Do you have a, do you have a story about that that you can share with us?

I talk a lot, so I'm going to make sure that she talks first. So anything you want to say?

I don't. Um, what happened? Let's see. I noticed that, I guess that he was working on himself. And making the changes that I needed to see.

Yeah.

And I, I just wanted to go back into a different marriage. I didn't want the same marriage. So, you know, committed to rebuilding our marriage and myself. So I just saw a lot of change.

Yeah, it's amazing. And you guys already had kids at that point?

Yes, we did.

Yes.

So you're trying, you're, you, you, you are required to be in each other's lives because you're co-parenting and you're trying to do that whole scene. And not a lot of people get that right. Like, do you know, do you know how or what, what that was about that, uh, helped you get it right? Or Neil, do you, let, we can go back a little bit too because, uh, Rachel said she saw you doing the work and making the changes. What were you working on?

Man, everything. Um, it was ultimately the, uh, pretty much the darkest time of my life. Um, you know, I'd just come back from Afghanistan, I was working through some, some PTSD. You know, a lot of stuff that I pretty much, I would say, projected onto her. Put myself into therapy, did some divorce care stuff, you know, with the church, which was an interesting aspect of it. 12-week program there. And I was pretty much the only one that was there trying to save their marriage in a sense. But I was also the, if you would call it like the abuser versus the victim kind of thing, not necessarily domestic violence, but, you know, contempt, criticism, all the type stuff that you might see in a divorce. You know, kind of position yourself with superiority, right? The thing I think from our first marriage was the financial aspects of it, right? You know, I was the breadmaker, right? So I felt like I could do anything that I wanted. Ultimately, you know, disrespecting her, you know, things that I'm not proud of. And then, you know, during therapy was really big in my life. I did it for 2-plus years. And one of the biggest things that I still remember to this day was I was sitting on that couch and my therapist asking me, have you ever listened to yourself talk?

Mm-hmm.

And at that point in time, I did not. And that was the day that I learned what congruency meant, right? Where your thoughts, your words, your actions are in alignment. And mine were vastly different. And at that point, I would say it was life-changing for me.

Right.

Okay. Simply because I'm now in, as I said, the darkest place that I've ever been in my life. And I've realized that not only, you know, my actions have affected me, but they impacted many more people. And I say my stepdaughter, who we ended up, you know, losing custody to collectively, and then also my son and my daughter. as well, right? My actions have now shifted and impacted them negatively for the rest of their life. So it was a really hard thing to swallow. And I'm not saying she was perfect. She was much better in the relationship. I can only own my part of that. But it was more about, you know, I can look back and say that she definitely You know, was the glue holding us together for quite some time.

Right on. Rachel, what do you know about that? What do you know about you being glue? Is that something that comes naturally to you? Did you have to summon that up, or was that a part of your own work? What's the— what is your sense of that?

Oh, I think it definitely came natural, but I didn't know that's how I was viewed until we got back together.

How do you mean?

That was never shared with me, his feelings.

And so what, what is it like to learn about him as, as he becomes better at sharing his feelings? What's that like for you?

Oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. Like, he was never a feeling sharer and now he shares all the time. Maybe too many times. I'm just kidding. Yeah.

But you were saying that like part of what happened for you was Neil's over there doing all this work. He's having these aha moments. What are you? Observing, observably, what can you see or what are, what's going on for you as you say, I recognize the work or recognize the change? What, what's actually happening to you in real time in your, in your relationships with yourself, your kids, and your family?

He made me believe that there was something that was still worth rebuilding. And, you know, our kids, having our kids and still having him in our lives and the hurt that, like he said, that we put the kids through, that was heartbreaking. For me. So I, you know, I noticed how sad he was, how angry he was, upset. Um, and then I saw him doing the work and he showed me that we can— people do change.

What are you— how are your kids doing? What do they think? Do they know the difference between marriage number 1, marriage number 2? Are they old enough?

I think, uh, obviously Alexa. Alexa's— oh, my mother. Um, she's 24. Zach is our first son. He'll turn 21 on Halloween. They know. Gracie, she is 16 now, so she'll be 17 next February, which is right around the corner. Getting her driver's license, kind of scary.

Yeah.

It is pressing us right now for that. But I think they all have different accounts from it, right? Alexa had another family as well, right? Her father and stepmother. And then Zach had, you know, it was back and forth. And the housing situation when we were separated wasn't the best. I was staying with my best friend, then I moved back into the house. She moved in with her mom and finally got a place by herself and things like that. So there's a lot of moving pieces from a disruption standpoint. But, you know, looking back— Got it. I think about the kids, but it needed to happen for me, uh, for work, right? The, the self-awareness, the, the pattern type stuff that I was kind of repeating, and then the lack of accountability, right? It was more like, if she didn't do that, then I wouldn't have done that kind of thing. Um, so.

Do you have any sense, Neil, of why you didn't come to that sooner? Like, uh, I'm not— it's not a, um, it's not a critique. It's more like, why? Or maybe then why then? Like, why then but not the other times? Like, did you finally come to some realization that you had to pull it together?

Arrogance, immaturity. You know, I was young too, right? Um, as I said, I was making all the money, so I was like, she's not leaving, she, she can't do it on her own kind of thing.

Um, and then, uh, you felt hurt like I felt.

Yeah, I felt the pain, right? You know, and, and then that's where I said, you know, that realization of how my actions have impacted and hurt people who are, you know, innocent in all this, our kids.

Yeah.

Her, uh, more importantly, right?

Um, so, so the thing that led to change for you was your own pain, uh, vis-à-vis your partners.

Yeah. I mean, we, we know better, right? I think, I think we all know better, right? Like, I think that's the reality of it. And I think this is why, you know, the— I believe in humanity and I say the pattern is the problem, not the person, right? Across the board, just simply because When we were younger, like, I watched my parents go through the same kind of cycle, right? Like, and, you know, yell and do whatever from an accountability standpoint. And there was no repair in any of those relationships. So it was just like tit for tat. The things that you let go turn into resentment. They get— they start building up and they contribute or they follow you into the next interaction or conversation that you have with that person. And ultimately, that was Rachel for me. And You know, it's just tough, man. It's tough.

Yeah. And then Rachel, what are you, when you, when you think about the part that you played, I mean, there's Neil's, it sounds like he had a lot of work to do, um, particularly recognizing the patterns and his participation in those. What, what did, what was apparent for you? Like what were you, what did you end up working on alongside of that? How would you name it? That's what I guess I'm curious about.

What did I end up working on?

Well, yeah, I mean, if he's over there doing all this work, I don't imagine you're just sitting on the porch waiting for him to finish doing all the work to come, like, show it to you. You know, it's more like, it feels like these people who recover in these ways, and this is what I believe about the two of you, I'm just wondering how you would name it, is they're both doing the work. They're both doing the work and they both have to kind of meet in the middle. I just am wondering how you would think about your own work alongside all these aha moments he's having over here, you know?

Well, at first I wasn't. looking to fix anything.

Okay.

I didn't want to do counseling. I wanted to learn how to tolerate what was happening.

As co-parents, you mean, or just as, as your marriage was falling apart?

Both.

Okay.

Both.

Okay.

Um, I'd reached a point where I had to decide whether the marriage could or wouldn't change, so I refused to go. Like, I was just years of hurt. Um, but—

Can I ask you about that a little bit? Because I think— so did you just say my marriage was in trouble, I was hurting, but I refused to go to therapy? Is that what you just told me?

Yes. Okay.

A lot of times I'll hear that. And it'll be something like the guy in Neil's position saying, well, I wanted to come in, but she wouldn't come. Right. And so that's its own flavor, its own taste. Um, but when you, can you tell me again, like, this is, this is why I was, uh, ambivalent or, uh, opposed to therapy because fill it in.

Because of my hurt. I was so hurt so many years. It had just accumulated to a point that I was done and I wasn't sure if I wanted change, but I needed to make sure for myself that this marriage could actually change and be different.

Okay. So you're— part of why you're not going to therapy is at that point, it almost feels like too little, too late vis-à-vis the way you were thinking. And then you actually need to decide whether or not you were interested in saving it at all.

Yes.

Yeah. Sometimes people come into therapy and I have to expose right away, maybe in a situation like the one that you could have brought in, that sometimes therapy isn't working on the marriage. It's working on whether or not to stay married.

Yes.

And you were far enough down that road that you were like, I'm not, I'm not pulling the trigger until something else happens.

Oh, yes.

And the, and the something else that happened was you, you guys ended your marriage.

Yes. And I needed to, I needed to close that chapter.

Yeah. And then do you move on? Are you moving on? Or like, is Neil, are you like, I'm gonna win this woman back? And he, and you're like, uh, good luck. I'm gonna focus. Like, what was your posture in that space?

Yes.

Me, me or her? I'm sorry.

I mean, Rachel. Yeah. Like, what, what were you, were you like, oh, he was trying.

He was trying to, you know, make everything better and, you know, keep our relationship together. And like I said, in the beginning, I wasn't willing to do that. I needed, I needed space.

And then what was the, what was the turning point for you? Was there a day? Was there like a regular Tuesday and you were like, all right, maybe?

Um, it was actually Right after court when our divorce was final.

Okay.

I realized that I probably made a mistake. Maybe. I don't know. I thought I had made a mistake. Looking back, I definitely did not.

Yeah.

Um, by divorcing him the first time. Yeah. But it was that day that I'm, I saw how hurt he was and then the days afterwards where It was hard to communicate and he didn't want anything to do with me anymore. So that's when I knew.

I, yeah, this is the thing. I think this is absolutely fascinating. Like that, that you have kind of done, done the, uh, kind of the startup marriage, the practice marriage, and then you, you, you sort of got outta that one and then back into this new one. I'm really, that transition, it blows my mind because so many people don't have the resilience or the, the, uh, the patience even. To wait for the relationship to turn around. So I'm really curious about and respectful of the work you're doing. I'm just trying to nail down, like, how does somebody decide to lean back in? I just, I'm curious about that, particularly for you, Rachel, like the pivot between no to maybe, that's gotta be massive. It's gotta feel massive.

Oh, yes. Yes. I just, I knew that he was the man that I wanted to be with for the rest of my life. And he had shown me that he was, he had changed. He had put in the work. And, um, so now it was my turn to help rebuild this new marriage.

Okay. And, and how's that one going?

Great.

Yeah.

What is, uh, what do you attribute that to? What's the difference between the, the, the new one and the old one?

We both did work on ourselves. We went to therapy.

Did you go together or did you go individually?

We did go together.

Okay.

And we also did individual.

Right on. So, and that was, was that a condition of the, of your getting back together? Like, we have to, we, we're gonna make this commitment?

Oh yeah. It was a condition for him.

Yeah.

That I joined him with in therapy.

And, but, and you, you had come around at that point. You were like, okay, this thing that I, that I refused to do before, now I'm ready to do.

Yes.

Interesting. Where did that conviction come from for you that you weren't going to do this unless there was therapy?

From where I sat, so I think you're asking from my perspective, and I think we got to back it up in order to kind of see where I'm coming from. You know, when I sat and, you know, before we even got divorced, you know, I tried saving the marriage probably for over a year. Right. I mean, this was like, it wasn't just like an immediate thing. It was like kind of drawn out. We split, we got back together for 6 months, and then we split again. You know, and at that point she was already emotionally checked out, right? Like there's really no saving anything. And any type of action, you know, I pursued with became artificial or fake, right? It just wasn't received well because it's like, hey, you know, why now? Right? You've been dragging me through the dirt for the last 8 years. Well, I should say longer than that because we were married in 2008, but we've been together since I was 19. So, and she was 21. So it's been quite some time. So by the time we got to that point, you know, she has already gone mentally and things got really bad at the end. Right. You know, I remember, you know, just like on her birthday, right. I always felt like it was You know, kind of materialistic in a sense. And this is on me. I mean, I like I I even you know she's she loves her birthday, right? You know, and the end of May, right? And I came from a different space growing up. My birthdays were trumped by my brother's graduations. I couldn't you know I think my last birthday party I had was seven, maybe maybe nine. So it's like you know I just my birthday is another day for me, right? Everything took priority in my family. because we were low income, things like that. So on her birthday, I think the year before we actually really split, you know, I was like, I'm just not going to get you anything and kind of see how it works, right? Like, and kind of see—

Hmm.

Petty. I know. Like, looking back, I am not proud of it, man. But, you know, for me, it was like, it was all about like what I could buy. And it was just a wrong mentality and me projecting probably some of my insecurities from, from my youth and childhood onto her, in a sense. So, you know, we got there. Obviously, that didn't go over well. But, you know, we got her nothing for her birthday. Pretty crazy, crappy husband, right? So that kind of transpired into what you call, like, the ultimate, like, pain, right? And when we kind of were split, like, hurt people hurt people. Right? And she got it. You know, she heard me, right? There's a lot of stuff going on there, and rightfully so. I mean, she's not in a good state of mind. She wants nothing to do with me across the board. You know, so that was probably one of the biggest— how do I want to phrase this? If I say at that time, you know, I said, you know, whatever, I didn't care simply because, you know, I can do this on my own. And then realizing the fact that she's gone, and the big hole that it replaced in my, my life, not only with me, but also, you know, my kids and knowing that my actions have caused them maybe generational damage as well and how they might handle their relationships in the future. It just put me in this, this weird space. So I did a lot of work up front and she was not receptive to it for, you know, over a couple of years, I would say, you know, and it wasn't until like towards the end where I'm like, you know, I can't I can't do this anymore in this space where I ultimately was okay with us not being a couple anymore. You know, after I tried to save our marriage and then obviously we divorced and I agree with her. I think, I think it had to happen to kill—

Yeah.

All of that negativity that we've gone through. Right. But it did put me in this place. And, you know, she talks about her inflection point and for mine, it's The point I just was at peace, right? You know, I put in the work. I don't, I don't want to be anyone else, and I don't want anyone else to reap the benefit of who I am today for all of the pain that I caused her in a sense, right? So it was one of those things where I'm like, man, I've given her the world. I've shown her this. If she's still not there, I have to be okay with that because I know who I am now, who I'm going to be, and who I want to be as a man moving forward. And I think that's the biggest You know, as guys, we don't often talk about like marriage issues and, and things like that. It's more of a, oh yeah, we're good, you know, kind of like, yeah, real high level. Like it's not deep. I don't know. I think I rambled a little bit, but—

A little bit.

You didn't come for therapy.

Yeah. Yeah. So essentially it came back to, yeah, for like the condition for therapy was like, you know, if you're serious, right, we have to kind of do this, right? Because I've been trying for the last 2 and a half years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You can't do it by yourself anymore.

Right. Like, yeah, I'm just—

You need her to be accountable to something else, like a process or her own narrative. Got it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then you're like—

I would tell you that it was not perfect, right? Like, I talked about the pain that we both caused each other, right? And the little triggers, right, that bring things up from both sides. And it took patience, right? And ultimately, she's the one who taught me that across the board. First 8 years, right? The specific. So, yeah.

Okay. So Rachel, he says therapy and now you're like, yes, you, you have a, you have a yes answer. So what do you know about your, your capacity to say yes? Like, where did that come from? I know you, I know you've seen him do the work, but like something probably inside of you had to shift too, from somebody who was gonna say no to somebody who was gonna say yes. What, what was that for you?

The shift is like when I noticed that he wasn't going to hang around anymore. He was done. He was put in the work, you know, he's been waiting on me for 2 years. So that's when I was like—

So it had flipped over a little bit. Like, yes, at first he's like, go to therapy or we're gonna lose the relationship. You're like, no. And then in fact, you lost the relationship. And then later he's like, gonna go to therapy, go to therapy or gonna lose the relationship. And you're like, whoa, but now I don't want to lose this relationship. So I'm going to say yes. I guess I'm thinking about leverage, right? Like people need— people don't change unless they have a reason to change. If you're driving down the freeway and you're just doing 65 miles an hour on the right-hand lane and there's no traffic, you don't change lanes. You don't, you don't, you don't change until somebody's in front of you is going too slow or you got to go to the bathroom. So people don't change unless there's enough resistance, enough pain. there. And you two have come up against that so many times. And sometimes you didn't change, and sometimes you did change. But in both cases, the change that I think you're telling me about is when you were faced with losing a relationship that you wanted, you finally got ready to do the work.

Yes.

Yes. And I—

okay, so here's what I want to know. How do we bring that forward so that it's not that? It's not the threat of the loss of the relationship. Like, what is the way— maybe you're doing it now, Because I would imagine you're changing for each other now, and it's not because you're afraid of losing the relationship.

I have an answer.

I don't.

So yeah, for me, it's awareness, right? It starts with awareness, right? And at the end of the day, like, the one thing that we're really good at right now is the repair side of it, right? Like, even if we have that dysregulation or slight disrespect that comes across, like, we have a moment and then we pause and then we always circle back and pretty much apologize for how we handled that in that situation. So I think some of the biggest issues with relationships is that you don't often see that build, right, until the actual blowup, right? Like, you know, it's that little, that little bit of degradation that keeps happening, a little bit of contempt, the criticism, you know, she's so lazy. Well, she's not really lazy. She just didn't do the dishes like she said she was going to do kind of thing, right? So You know, and separating that person from that action. So we're not attacking the character. But also, I think the repair side is really what keeps us most grounded, right? It's the self-awareness, the self-reflection, and then the ownership of our actions and how we've contributed to that. And I think that is something that I don't think we were capable of doing at a younger age.

Yeah.

We got married, I mean, 20— I was 23, she was 25. So, I mean, everybody wants that love story, but I mean, from a maturation standpoint, her parents were divorced. My parents, my mom divorced twice, right? So like—

You didn't have a lot of pictures of what, how relationships work. This is back to the top of why I do these interviews because like maybe you don't have to just, you know, look at those 2 examples right there and call that normal. There's all kind of everything. There's lots of different kinds of normal. Your relationship is normal. It just has a twist and turn that some relationships don't have. Um, when Neil says that one thing that we're really good at is repair, how do you understand that? How do you understand repair in your marriage?

Oh yes, it, I mean, it did, like he said, it took us a long time to be able to actually communicate with each other, um, without arguing or talking over each other. And we have definitely learned how to do that. You know, we're older. And it just, it helps.

Yeah.

The relationship be able to communicate clearly.

Right on. I know, Neil, you have a, you have a project you've been working on. It's called Reframe. I've looked at it a couple times. Some of my clients have messed around with it. It's pretty cool. Is that flowed out of your desire to, um, learn how to better communicate and to set the table? Like, I, I, I've heard you talk about it a little bit, but, um, how do you understand this project that you're on? What can you tell us about this project you're on?

Yeah. So Reframe is something I started building back in January, and I call it the— I used to call it the X-ray of communication, but I call it the X-ray of relationships now because it's more of a clarity thing, right? The introspection, the insight-driven information that you can't get from your peers or even your partner. You know, sometimes you can't figure out how to say that stuff and then also see clearly. So I kind of equate it to not being able to read a label inside of a jar, right? Help you see— Reframe essentially helps make the invisible visible, right?

Right.

So as I said, I call it the X-ray relationships because I detect, you know, patterns across not only communication patterns, but behavior patterns and cycles of dysfunction within the relationships and then give you kind of clarity into that and also what your part in it, right? That's the big thing.

Yeah.

Most cannot see that, right? The accountability side of it. So.

So, and to be clear, it's a piece of software, self-contained piece of software that you've built. And the way I would use it is I, I think if I remember correctly, I come up, I got a situation, I'm not really sure what to do with this situation. Maybe I plug it in and hit enter and Reframe comes back and goes, okay, here's the upside or the positive or the reframed version of this that can serve the relationship. Is that, did I get it right in a nutshell?

There's a couple different features, but yeah, so like there's reframe the message, reframe the situation, reframe the conversation.

Yeah.

And then we call it the rehearsal. So the rehearsal, you think about a conversation you may have been avoiding, right? Scripting is hard, right? So I've created this framework I call the R3 framework, which is, I call it the standard of human interaction or essentially how we treat each other. And that's regulated, respectful, repairable. So what that means is that the first part of that is about yourself, your self-state check, right? Do I have control right now? Or are my emotions making this decision kind of thing? Am I reacting from that? And then it flows into respectful, right? That's the other side of it, the other person, the dignity check. And that is, am I preserving the other person's dignity, right? And respectful is not, you know, not about being polite. It's about being curious, right? Really, really understanding their position and being curious from where they're coming from. That develops empathy in a sense, right? And then the repairability is, you know, can I come back from this? It's, it's before and after. So before essentially is, you know, get you forward thinking, building that muscle about the consequences you may be sitting with from the words or actions that you're going to be taking.

Yeah.

And then obviously, if we're, if we're human, we're dysfunctional, right? And dysregulated. You know, this kind of maps to neuroscience as well. And then when we are disrespectful, we come back and we own our part in it, right? Like, that's the repair side of it. So, but Reframe the Message, it provides you the communication side of it. It detects the patterns within your immediate message that you may have received to tell you kind of if you've been gaslit, manipulated, etc. And then also in your own patterns, things you can't see. Reframe the Situation is for a point in time. You can go in there and describe a situation. It does the pattern analysis, your part in it, the cycle of dysfunction, and then your next move. And then Reframe the Conversation is, you know, you can go in there and put anywhere from 3 to 15 screenshots. You know, in that conversation. And it's pretty much like a 20-page analysis. It gives you the inflection point, your patterns, what healthy looks like, etc. And it's all backed by, you know, research in relationship science.

So I love it, man. I, you— I got to talk to you and you gave me a tour and it was very cool. A couple of my clients have used it. I think they're still trying to figure out how they were going to use it boots on the ground. Like, how do I use this? Like, just in real time? Do the two of you use it? You ever, you ever go in there, Rachel, and type in the thing and go, yeah, yeah, yeah. How does it work?

It's pretty awesome.

It's, it's hard, right? Like, I mean, sometimes like, you, you know what you wanna say, but you wanna make sure it lands right. So like, you can go to ChatGPT and write something nicer, right? It'll polish your contempt essentially, right? But like, if I wanna actually get something across, you know, I can go in there and type in my message, give it context. And it helps me educate itself in real time, like what I was going to say, how that is degrading to the relationship, and then also provides me a response that is regulated and respectful while still getting my, my same original words and points across so that I'm not contributing to those little, you know, little nuggets that basically cause the blowup of the relationship. So it's, it's more of a preventative, it's upstream. You know?

Yeah. Rachel, how do you use it?

Um, I've used it a couple times if we have been in like a little tiff or argument. Um, I put in what I really wanna say and then ask it to, you know, help me send this to him so it's not making him upset. Um, you know, even more.

Yeah.

But that's what I really like about it. It helps me with my thoughts.

Yeah. Okay. If I had, uh, okay. If I'm listening and I want to participate or I want to try it out, what do I do? Where do I go?

Uh, it is, uh, so do not go to reframe.com. It is wereframe.com. All right. So I think reframe.com is some alcoholic app or some, you know, like 12-step.

It is actually. Yeah, no, it is a, it is one of those, uh, a friend of mine uses it. So it's not a, it's not a, you won't, it won't lead you astray. It won't be going to like some like black hole of internet, you know, dark web or something, but it is, uh, there's a difference. So you We, we are Reframe, or no, We Reframe.

We Reframe. Yep. W-E-R-E-F-R-A-M-E, uh, .com. And I put we in there, uh, because most people like to be part of a community, right?

Yeah.

Like, so it's like, I can't change this world alone, but we can change it together, right?

Yeah.

If you show up differently, it impacts people, uh, differently as well. So.

All right. Let me ask you just one more question before we leave. If I'm, uh, if I've resonated with your story and I go, oh yeah, man, sometimes the, I realize like, or, You know, maybe I did break up, or maybe I'm considering get back together, or maybe I'm, you know, not quite sure if I'm ready to make the change, if it's too fast. Like, what's the one thing that the two of you guys would have us learn or know or take away based on your experience, what you've learned?

Uh, how about you go? I don't know.

Oh, mine's easy. It's the repair part of it, right? That's the part that you care about, the relationship side of things, right? So making sure that you own your part in this. And you showing you have that self-awareness to continue down that path and improve, right? Because it's the same thing that I call the observability effect. Once you see it, you can't unsee it kind of thing.

Yeah.

So once you have that awareness, you end up showing up different in that next interaction, right? If you're really trying to get, trying to get better there. So yeah, I say the repair part of a relationship would, would be the ultimate nugget to take away from this conversation, if you want to call it that. Continue to own your part and then have that awareness, um, you know, and, uh, for your partner as well.

Does that stir anything up for you, Rachel? What do you think?

I was gonna say, if you're undecided, if you wanna stay in your marriage, I mean, just do it. Put in the work.

Why?

It's worth it in the end.

Like, like I said, I'm fascinated by your story. I think it is, uh, you know, always encouraging to me when people do have, uh, something that they would call harmony. Then disharmony for you two in such specific and dramatic ways, and then finding harmony again. That's, uh, that's awesome. And, uh, and I personally am interested in, and I endorse the idea of repair. I think it is absolutely a skill that couples ought to have, like the ability to repair, or rather the, the, uh, the failure of the ability to repair is a big factor in why couples split up. So if you're out there and you're looking for ways to get better at that, Try Reframe, wereframe.com. Um, Neil and Rachel, thank you so much for joining me on Marriage Therapy Radio. I'm really grateful to hear about, uh, what you guys have, uh, gone through and learned in the process. So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.