When Your Nervous System Is the Third Person in the Room w/Deborah Rozman, Ph.D. & Howard Martin

Eager to talk to you because I have had this thing come across my consciousness over the last few months, and it's HeartMath. And I don't know, I had never heard of it before, but I'm eager to learn about what you guys are up to and what you've learned and how it works for you personally.

And okay, ladies first.

When you said you've been hearing about HeartMath and then you got this— yeah, what have you been hearing?

Well, I am, uh, I'm a part of the Relational Life Institute. So that's Terry's— Terry Real's institute. And he is, uh, does a lot of work around neuropsychology and, uh, trauma responses and trying to help people tap into kind of the wisest, sanest parts of themselves before they try to implement tools. And we were in a faculty meeting and somebody brought it up and There was this little side conversation between Terry and another faculty member about how they use it and then whether or not it's effective. And there were some questions about like, do you use it and is it effective? And Terry raved about it there for a second. And I was like, oh, well, I'm interested to learn more. I go, Terry, do you like HeartMath? He's like, yeah, I love it. I'm like, why? He goes, it's the best or something like, I don't get it and get any more information. So I'm very eager just to hear about how you describe it and, uh, and what it is, but also just. How does it work for you is the thing I think I'm most interested in.

All right, well, lots of questions. Um, let me begin in a way that I, I'm a psychologist by background, but in a way that I'm a couples therapist, then work back to HeartMath. Um, so do you know John Gottman?

I do know John. Yeah, I'm, I'm a certified Gottman therapist. I've been working with the Institute for, I don't know, almost 20, a little over 20 years. So, okay.

Well, John is a good friend, and he has used the HeartMath HRV coherence technology, which is a heart rhythm biofeedback monitor and trainer that helps you get your heart, brain, and nervous system— basically your mind, emotions, and body— in sync. And so he's used that especially with— he has court-appointed domestic violence couples that he treats, and he He treats them by having, and he's written papers on this, having them get into this heart rhythm coherence state individually first before they communicate. And the reason that's so great and people love it and so important is because if you're in a couple relationship with anybody, but let alone your spouse, you know, old habits, triggers, things can come up, and that creates the foundation of a lot of arguments, judgment, blame, the whole thing that can cascade into divorce or separation. And really, it's the separation within yourself that it's starting. And if you can get your own heart and mind back into coherence, back into balance, back in sync, then you can have— especially if both parties do that— a really genuine, authentic conversation where you're really hearing each other and you're really authentically communicating, which is the key. to relationship success. So HeartMath Institute began researching in 1991 how the heart and brain and body talk to each other, and then developing a system called HeartMath of tools, techniques, and this heart technology to be able to help people get in alignment, get coherent, become who they really are, their best self, and then apply that. in relationships, in work, in performance, in a lot of different areas. So that's my quick answer.

Why did you learn how to do that? Why did you care? Why did you decide that this was an important thing for you to study and to bring clarity to?

Well, for me, I, as a psychologist, I was helping people and I found that When they were in their heart, they were more authentic in that, the feeling heart and the energetic heart. And I would have them actually before HeartMath do a type of Gestalt therapy where they sit on a pillow and be their mind or their head talking to their heart on another pillow and then switch roles. And as they went back and forth, it finally settled in the heart where they connected with their wisdom or their intelligence. We call it heart intelligence. And they'd get more of an intuitive answer. So when Doc Childre, the founder of HeartMath, said he wanted— I met him and he wanted to start a research institute to study how the heart and brain and spirit, if you will, talk with each other and see how people could align because he and myself and Howard and others were longtime meditators, knew that it was about love and the heart, but how do we physiologically prove that out? How do we facilitate that? And so that's why I was very interested in helping Doc start the Institute of HeartMath Research. Right on.

And Howard, what do you think? How did you get attached to or interested in this same path or the same journey?

Well, Zach, that's a great question. I'm sitting here thinking about it. I had the opportunity to think about it while Deborah was talking and For me, it started with an interest in personal growth. You know, how can I improve? How can I expand my awareness and consciousness and things like that? And along the way, what happened was is it led me to understanding that heart, you know, this thing called heart that was written about and talked about everywhere, was one of the important cornerstones and keys to exploring myself. As I began to approach that self-discovery process through a heart-centric, you know, process, it expanded my care. And then I started caring more about people and the well-being of others. And so I guess what I can say about it is when I was young, only in my 20s, I had a couple of realizations. One was that life in fact was about growth. That's why we were here. And secondly, you had to pass on what you learned. And so a combination of interest in improving me, being a better Howard Martin, and then being of service to others was the impetus behind why I got involved in all this. To go back to an earlier question, if that answer is good for you, what is HeartMath? Well, we are organizations, a for-profit and a nonprofit. We started out in 1991, a long time ago. We started out very, very small, of course. And over these years, it's just grown and grown and grown into where we have a pretty, I think, significant footprint in the world. And we've helped lots of people in lots of different ways. Including in relationship.

Yeah.

Connection, community, relationship is an important byproduct of anything we share with the world. So we do it through training programs. We do it through interactive things like this, being on your show, and appreciate you having us. And Deborah was mentioning our technology. Technology is something that has been used successfully by marriage and family counselors to help people create that synchronization. that Deborah mentioned, to where they move beyond some of the limitations of their normal problematic psychological patterns and are able to connect more through their own hearts and through the love and care that's at the core of really what the relationship was at least about, and they can be rekindled.

It makes me think like, okay, 1991. So that's what?

36 years.

36 years. What, what do you know about the heart or about couples now that you didn't know in 1991? And I'm actually interested in this. Like, if you think about relationships in 1991, let me back up for a second. I had a mentor once who used to hang out with me, and we got together on my 40th birthday. And he asked me this really interesting question that I just— nobody had ever asked me before. But he goes, how would you define Each decade of your life. So 0 to 10, 11 to 20, 21 to 30, 31 to 40. Like, how would you label or how would you define those? And I, we had a really delightful lunch kind of thinking through different phases, but if you could think about HeartMath or you thought about relationships from say 1991 to 2000, and then 2001 to 2010, and then 2011 to 2020, do you think you have enough? experience and data of couples or of this technology to say, this is what we've seen happen over the last 30, 36 years?

Yeah, sure. I think Deborah can fill in, especially with some important stories about all this. But, uh, I love that, you know, in the very beginning, you know, there was a— people didn't truly understand heart in the way that we positioned it now. Uh, it was looked at as something philosophical, something spiritual, something people, you know, respected, but it wasn't really being applied with consistency in daily life. And what we did, Zach, through scientific research actually is we were able to tell a different story about heart, both the psychological aspects of heart as well as the physiological aspects of heart. So everything we've done has been underpinned with scientific research. We felt heart needed a grounded component to it, and research was an important bridge between what people feel about heart inside themselves and how that manifests in the way they walk in the world. So the applications of HeartMath have been so different, many along this way, this journey that you've, you know, you're asking us to help paint a picture of, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And in the context of that, one area of society that was an adopter of HeartMath was practitioners, therapists, counselors, psychologists, people like that. And of course, they work in many different arenas to help people solve a variety of challenging situations or problems. And then relationships slid into that and some of the relationship work with people like John Gottman that Deborah mentioned and others began to come into it. So today there, you know, in our database, we know there's about 90,000 health professionals that use HeartMath. And that covers a pretty wide spectrum. And we also know that a lot of those are mental health professionals. And then underneath that, the context in which you're an expert in would be people dealing with couples and marriage and family things.

Mm-hmm.

Now, there've been many stories. There's one in particular I know Deborah will tell, which I think is a very compelling one. of something that she was involved in personally and worked with a couple that was very publicly visible and was able to see extraordinary results. So let me let her have that opportunity to share her story or others, you know.

Thank you, Howard. Before I go into that very dynamic story, I just want to say that in the night, to answer your question, Zach, from 1990 to 2000, the breakthrough research that HeartMath Institute found, which was published in the American Journal of Cardiology, was the connection between the emotional heart and the physical heart.

Yeah.

And that everybody knows there's a connection like heartache, heartbreak, but to actually be able to see that when you're loving and caring and appreciative, that your heart rate variability would Our heart rhythm pattern goes into this smooth sine wave-like rhythm, which is communicated to the higher centers of the brain. So you have more ability to self-regulate, to have compassion, to have understanding in the executive functions. When you're stressed and frustrated and angry and you're out of sync, the autonomic nervous system and the heart rhythm is real jagged and irregular.

Mm-hmm.

And that is that emotional stress response. And the burning heart signals the brain and it goes into fight, flight, fright.

Mm-hmm.

So with that background, I was like, whoa, let's develop some techniques, which we call HeartMath techniques, to quickly shift and not suppress or vent, but be able to shift the physical heart rhythm, which sends a different signal to the brain, which gives you more ability to regulate your nervous system. And responses and your emotions.

Is this the same or consistent with the thing that John found around diffuse physiological arousal? I mean, is it just affirming that same sense of findings?

Yes. And I'm going to lead into that. So what happened was we developed these techniques, but we also developed technology. And John uses the Professional and the EM-Wave Pro, but this is what a lot of people are using now is the Inner Balance Coherence Sensor. So you can see on an app, the Inner Balance app or the HeartMath app, what your heart rhythms are doing in real time and train yourself. So that became the focus from 2000 and to about until now, actually. We developed that heart rhythm feedback technology. And people go, wow, I really can shift my heart rhythm, which shifts how I'm perceiving.

Mm-hmm.

Which shifts how I'm feeling. And that's super powerful. So John uses that. And now the story that Howard wanted me to tell.

Well, it's just so fascinating that I think we don't quite connect. Well, rather, people come in and they want help in therapy rooms and they want tools and tips and tricks, and you can give them to them all day long. But it sounds like if they're not also taking care of their literal physiology, That, that's going to be problematic.

Exactly. Because your physiology is sensing what you're really feeling underneath, and that's going to affect how you perceive and how you react. Okay.

One response to that point, Zach, if I may, is, you know, when we are in highly stressed states, which many people are today, you know, it creates nervous system chaos. The nervous system is actually overloaded. When that happens, perception definitely changes. So I think One of the underlying root causes of relational problems today is the fact that people are coming into those relationships highly stressed, with dysregulated nervous systems, which are impacting even brain function. Certainly they're impacting perceptions of one another and creating difficulty in ability to communicate and things like that. That nervous system chaos is shutting down— well, just shutting down their hearts in a way, you know.

This is the thing I'm wondering about. Are people more stressed and more nervous than they were in 1991? And were they—

Yes, they definitely are. When we used to do training programs in 1992, '93, after we, you know, we developed stress management programs based upon the heart-brain synchronization, and then of course it was published in 1995, but I would be doing training programs and ask, how many people in this room feel they have a lot of stress? Maybe 1 or 2 hands would go up. Some of it was just embarrassment because it wasn't fashionable then to be saying you're stressed. And every year after that, there'd be more hands until it was everybody in the room acknowledging.

Yeah.

And stress has increased, and it's crazy right now. It's leading to all sorts of problems with addictions and loneliness and, and disharmony within oneself, let alone in your relationships. So what we're trying to say and shout from the rooftops is you can regulate this. It's a nervous system response that can change how you see yourself and how you manage your reactions and become more who you really wanna be.

Yeah, that's true.

Zach, I think stress is at an all-time high. We never had this much stress. A question for you, which relates, is do you feel like everything continues to be getting faster?

Well, that's— yes, I do. I mean, and the only reason I know that is because I've been trying intentionally for the last, I don't know, I'm gonna say probably 4 months to slow down. I've been trying to, you know, limit my intake of media. I've been— I just bought a flip phone. I just bought a phone that would, you know, make it harder for me to feel connected. And, but yeah, I think absolutely things are like lightning fast and our attention spans are shorter. And I think the question that I'm hoping that we— that you'll shed some light on for people that I know will be interested to listen is, okay, fine. Stress is more than it was in 1991, more than in 2011, more than in 2021. Is there something I can do about that without changing my external environment? And I think you're— maybe you're going to tell me yes, but what is that?

Let me, let me tell you this story because I think— yes, right now, please. So Dr. Phil and the Dr. Phil Show, one of their chief medical advisors used HeartMath, was a strong HeartMath champion, and he invited me to work with people Dr. Phil would send and pay HeartMath to facilitate them individually or as couples. There was a couple on the show, and it's very public, like Howard said, named Tammy and Rayner. And they were at each other's throats on the show. So when he sent me the video, I went, oh no, I didn't. It was so extreme with their kids. I'd never seen anything that horrific on a couple's interview. And they were on the edge of divorce. The children were having a hard time, on and on. So they flew them out to HeartMath for a session with me. And I knew that there was no way that anything was going to work until I helped them get in sync themselves individually. So I gave them each our— at that time it was the M-Wave product that we now have, this Inner Balance Sensor that I just fell out because this was actually before iPhones. And they taught them how to get coherent, taught them the very simple technique, which we'll share with your listeners, of how to get in sync. And the display shows red when you're not, blue when you're partway, and green when you're in higher coherence.

Okay.

Which reflects your heart, brain, and nervous system are in sync. So I taught them how to do that individually. I wouldn't let them even talk with each other about their problems until they were both in the green.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Then something I would say, people would say is magical happened. When they were both in the green, we have a technique called coherent communication where one person shares what they're feeling about something and the other person, while in the green, reflects it back. Active listening, reflect, mirroring, whatever term you want to use, until the first person says, yeah, you got it. When you're in that heart coherent, heart-brain coherent state, you feel connected, you feel intuitive to yourself. And when the other person is reflecting back, you feel heard if they're hearing.

Mm-hmm.

So that was part one. And then the other person would get to respond to what was said about how they're feeling. And they both felt heard. So this was session 1, and they were like, wow, this is the first time we have felt heard in years. And that's because they were each in sync with themselves.

Mm-hmm.

And so they could listen without distortion, and they could communicate from their heart. And we had 4 or 5 sessions, each one progressing. And they had a practice in between, taking this technology home and not communicating when there was any issue until they were both in the green.

Okay.

And it was amazing. This is what John Gottman teaches. What happened was, in a relatively short period of time, they fell in love again. They heard each other again. The issues went away. And they both became certified as HeartMath coaches.

Okay. It sounds magical. It sounds too simple. Is it that simple? If you just take care of your heart, the beating organ inside your chest, that it can open up relational reality?

Well, it's getting in that heart rhythm synchronization where the heart, which has its own independent nervous system, which most people don't know about, Okay. Have an intense feel, learn and remember. It sends a different signal to the thalamus and the amygdala and the brain centers. So instead of the stress response of cortisol and shutdown, which happens especially when you're arguing and are upset, it's actually getting you back in alignment, back in sync with yourself so that you have more of your cortical facilitation. You have more— you're perceiving differently. Your intuition is activated. It takes practice. I am not going to say you do it once and it's done. You want to create a new baseline, a new habit, a new response pattern. So that's why it took some months coaching Tammy and Raynor, but they did it for the sake of themselves, the relationship, and the kids. And they got a new baseline of coherence. And that's what— we all need and want. So yes, the techniques are simple, but you have to do it.

Well, Zach, let me answer the question a little differently, if I may. Um, sure. Not to dispute what Deborah said at all, but I think that each situation is different and it isn't necessarily that's all you have to do. You know, it does sound magical, uh, in a way. I think what it is is an important starting point. You know, I think it's a necessary starting point in many cases to find, you know, the you know, the common ground to begin to work on the relationship. But, you know, as a professional, which I'm not in this field, it can sometimes be very nuanced and very complex. But I think the way in which we do it and the way in which Deborah has done it is to bring— when things do get too complex and it starts to derail again, is to bring people back to that coherent state, to refocus that way. And then it begins to bring things back into a context that allows for some of these understandings to emerge. But it does take work. And I applaud you and the other people that do this, you know, as a profession, because there's a lot of skill involved, I'm sure, in healing a relationship like that.

And let me add that, you know, I was just on another podcast where I didn't know the person at all, but he was sharing how he overcame his addictions and cravings and impulses using this Inner Balance Coherence Technology. And that he was about to fall off the wagon after having been sober for 10 years because of a divorce, because of strong issues with the relationship. And he still uses it to this day. He said 5 minutes, 3 times a day.

Wow.

To keep coming back and seeing, keeping getting back and seeing, because you feel different and you see different and you act different. When you are regulating your nervous system instead of being in overwhelm, overload, and anxiety. Yeah.

So it takes a lot of practice. The two of you are practiced at this, these techniques. Do you still argue with one another? Do you get into your own little fits still, or do you— have you found— has it protected you from that?

Well, life is life, you know. We're gonna have some disagreements, a little conflicts at times, of course. But, you know, I think that We've been married for 36 years now, happily married, and we've never had any major issues, major conflicts. And so I think that's a testament to approaching our relationship from a heart-centric place. And there are a few things and guidelines that I'll share that I've used along the way in my relationship with Deborah. But one of those would be this: when I feel like something's wrong, when something's out of balance there, when something's not right, the first place I want to look to is not to her, but to me. I'm not trying to fix her at that point. I look at myself and say, what am I contributing to this situation that's creating this? Let me make my own inner adjustments in that. That's one thing that I try to do. Sometimes I'm better at that than others.

Sure.

Secondly, I think it's always important to pause. It's always important to try to replace the immediate judgment that might be going on with at least a feeling of neutral. In other words, if I'm judging Deborah for something and it's causing this little spat between us or whatever, because of something I think she shouldn't be doing or did or whatever, it's important to pause right there and say, wait a minute, I don't necessarily know the whole picture here. You know, I'm observing the what that's happening, but what I don't know is the why.

Mm-hmm.

And so it's better for me to be more neutral and then ask questions rather than simply slinging judgment or blame in that situation.

Yeah, that's really interesting because I think a lot of people think it has to be positive or negative. And like, if it's, if it's not negative, maybe they don't have the bandwidth or the even the imagination to go, well, I wonder what the positive thing is, but just to invite some measure of neutrality seems— that's going to stick with me. There's real wisdom there. It doesn't have to be All good or all bad.

Yeah. Well, I'll give you one quick definition of that, and I appreciate your appreciation of what I said. Uh, I see neutral as a highly aware state that's not yet deciding. It's not just the, you know, kind of neutral. It's, it's very aware. It's very observant, but it isn't like assigning good, bad, right, or wrong. You know, it's not allowing those polarities to come into play as quickly, you know. So a highly aware state that's not yet deciding is, is a neutrality that I try to practice.

Okay. Uh, you were telling us about some things that you did. One is that you try to look within. Second one is you look to be neutral. Was there additional things on your list about how you manage some of the, the road bumps or speed bumps that you come up against?

Well, there's one I'll just share and we can move on, but there's a, um, a term that shows up here in HeartMath trainings and that sort of thing. It's called compassionate latitude.

Okay. I'm all about it. Let's hear.

Compassion is definitely a connector. I mean, we need more compassion in the world. I think most people would agree with that. And compassion is like really, you know, seeing into someone else's situation and offering that feeling of compassion rather than a judgment kind of thing. Uh, we have the ability often at times to be compassionate to situations or to people that aren't necessarily as close to us. We're watching the news, we see the plight of somebody like, you know, let's say in Gaza or something, and we can feel our heart go out to these people. because we see their suffering. But then right at home, you know, we can get through watching the news and something can happen and we get a little triggered by it and whatever, and that compassion is just not there in the same way. Compassionate latitude means to be able to expand our compassion beyond the normal places and thresholds where we stop. There's a certain place where we go, well, they don't deserve my compassion. Well, maybe they do, and we shut it off there. So to me, compassionate latitude is how do we expand that compassion a little further? So that it doesn't cut off as quickly. So in any relationship, whether it's with Deborah, whether it's with a coworker or other types of relationships, I try to expand that compassion as much as I can. It just offers a context where more understanding and connection can occur.

Yeah.

But I think in today's world, with the mind running so fast and change happening all the time and all that, we get shut off from the heart. We start living from the neck up, you know, and then we get a little edgy and then the You know, whether, whatever compassion we have, it can just snap right off and go away so quickly because of that high-speed mental processing going on and that edge and that stress we're experiencing. And we lose the connection to the compassion that we have. And so not assigning blame, looking to myself first would be one tip. Seeing, try to see things through at least a more neutral perspective to begin to look into the why rather than the what, and then try to expand your compassion. for the other person. Those things I think help to build relationship.

Right on. That's all very fascinating. Is there— I think maybe what I'm eager to understand, and my listeners probably are too, is, okay, great, I believe you, I trust you. What am I supposed to do? What do I actually do if I'm, if I'm interested in getting better at this sort of HeartMath or this nervous system regulation Let me start with that.

There's something else that people should know about the research that we found that's really important. And that is that our heart rhythm, whatever that pattern is, is actually broadcast through the heart's electromagnetic field with every beat. So that's how we pick up on each other's vibes. And especially in a relationship that's close, you are always feeling that. And keeping that in mind, if you can shift into a feeling of heart rhythm coherence of care, what puts you in the green is genuine feelings of appreciation or kindness or care or compassion. And those are radiating through the heart's electromagnetic field. That's the vibe you're sending out, whether the other person's aware of it or not.

Right.

of it or not. The research shows is that whatever my heart rhythm pattern signal is, is showing up in the brainwaves of people who are not even touching, within 3 feet apart. So mamas and babies, they have that immediate response. But couples and relationships have that. Either we get in sync with each other when we're loving and caring and there's not an issue, or we have these discordant vibes. So knowing the research on that, which is fascinating, we developed certain techniques and tools. There's a series of HeartMath techniques that are available on the HeartMath app, which are like coherent communication, but one is called the Heart Lock-In. And what I do when I'm irritated at Howard for whatever reason or judging him, I get myself in the green, I'm in sync, and then I radiate Compassion, forgiveness, kindness, love. I find those feelings, those qualities, and I radiate that into the field, into him. I do it for 4 or 5 minutes.

And you do that just emotionally, like mentally? Like, do you open your mouth or do you just—

I do breathing. I'll teach you the technique. People, what do you do? Here's what you do. And I'll teach you all the technique. But it's focusing in the heart, breathing through the heart, and it's like imagining radiating that feeling. So if you can actually shift to a feeling of gratitude, something that you're grateful for, whether it's him or something else, you're sending that signal out. And that works over and over like magic.

Wow.

It creates a different energy and feeling in myself. And between us. He often changes when I do that. Now you may say, whoa, whoa, whoa, but I find it works a lot for not only him but in work relationships. It just creates a different energy between me and the other person that helps calm things down and brings more clarity or allows for deeper communication.

When you say he changes—

And these are techniques we can teach.

Yeah. When you say he changes, do you think that means he changes because you changed? Or do you think he, he literally is responding to what you're doing in a way that is, uh, synchronous?

You know, I think both. I think it's some combination of both, but certainly in the research lab, we see the other person shifting their heart rhythm when they receive love. We see that also with animals research. You send love to your dog and the dog's heart rhythm has changed.

Interesting.

There's all sorts of really neat research going on at HeartMath Institute between our heart rhythm patterns and nature and people.

So that day that we first tried to interview and my internet was, was freaking out, I, that was like, like I said, it was maybe the 4th thing that afternoon that had sort of cascaded on top of me that made me frustrated and angry. And I was sort of spinning out and it probably took me 4 days to kind of come down off of that discomfort and that dysregulation. I had kind of high hopes for— doesn't matter. But inside of those 4 days, is HeartMath a tool for me? Do I just go, okay, I'm gonna check? Talk to me about that for a second.

Yeah, I mean, it's— we're gonna get triggered, Zach. Everybody is. You, me, everybody. And I think that the game of life is how quickly we get back to balance. And so we can intercede in that. We can interrupt that pattern of mental processing and replay play that goes on all the time about what happened and all this other stuff, right?

Yeah.

And that's where heart comes in. You know, when you begin to reconnect with the qualities of the heart and change the physiology from heart-brain-body communication, those sort of things, it can shorten the cycle so that we get back balanced more quickly, you know. And that's an important, I think, benchmark of our personal growth, is how quickly we get back to a place of balance. So yeah, HeartMath Or our techniques and their technology are tools for that. But really the insert that people need to, to, to, to, to go for is inserting heart back into the process, right? Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

A few minutes ago you asked, what can people do? And I'll give you a couple tips to that that may be helpful in the context of what you shared, but also in relationship stuff.

Yeah.

First, first of all, compassion for yourself. You know, people need to recognize that we're living in a challenging world right now, a challenging time. And that if people could see that within themselves, for starters, that they're doing the best they can, Mm-hmm. that they don't have to be perfect, that life's gonna have its ups and downs. And especially, let's say, in a relationship. I think in a relationship, when, when people are struggling with that relationship, there can be a lot of underlying self-judgment in that. You know, wish they could do better, wish they hadn't said that, wish they'd done this, wish they'd done that or not done that. In those moments, try to have a talk with your own best friend.

Mm-hmm.

Go back and have that talk with your heart and recognize— people need to recognize, I'm a good person. I'm doing the best I can. And have that compassion for yourself. That's a starting point. A second, more proactive approach to that rather than reactive would be to make a conscious effort to activate more regenerative, uplifting emotions just in the way you live. And they can be things like, try to find things in your life to be grateful for, to appreciate. Look for them. Just wait for life to align to where, oh, I appreciate that because life did something that makes me happy. Look for the things in life where you can be grateful and appreciative. They're always there if you look. So you begin to activate more of those type of emotions in the system. The third thing would be do whatever you can to reduce the stress in your life.

Mm-hmm.

There are plenty of resources available for that, including HeartMath.

But, and a flip phone, a phone, a phone.

Yeah, that's good. Get a flip phone. But reduce the stress.

Not feeding you in for stressful information all the time. Yeah.

The third would be really to, um, to practice any techniques that you can that begin to open the heart and expand awareness a bit more. Uh, it's through that understanding that connection can be, can be enhanced. There's a phrase, a simple phrase that our founder, Deborah mentioned, Doc Shulry, founder of HeartMath, something he's saying a lot these days is that the key to people solving their problems and for us to solve the societal and global problems is simply this: people need to learn to get along better.

Mm-hmm.

And that starts getting along with their self, which Deborah referred to right in the research part of what she spoke about, but also then making that effort to suspend the judgment, learn to get along better. It's a habit we can build and it will contribute to the quality of our relationships, all relationships really.

And I would just want to say to your situation, if you had practiced nervous system regulation, a HeartMath technique, right at the start or any point, you would have interrupted that looping, that cycle, and that energy drain.

Mm-hmm.

And that is what we specialize in at HeartMath, is like there's 2 techniques. One is called Quick Coherence, which is Getting that heart-brain in sync very quickly once you get triggered. But if it's a deeper issue, a relationship issue, stop, pause, and do about a 4 or 5 minute heart lock-in and use the technology. Get your heart rhythms in sync. It's very simple. It's heart-focused breathing and finding something to be grateful for in your life, not the person you're having a problem with.

Yeah.

Could be your puppy. You could be—

Yeah.

Time in nature.

Yeah.

And shift that heart rhythm pattern and then radiate, send that pattern to the person, to the situation, to yourself, that compassion for yourself. So you're harnessing the power of your nervous system regulation to work for you. And that changes everything. A change of heart changes everything. You can begin to see new things you can do, but you're stopping the energy drain. You're stopping the depletion. You're going from what we call depletion to renewal. And that's what we teach in the HeartMath programs and system. But, you know, again, before we leave here, I want to share a technique that your listening audience can use right away for quick coherence.

Okay, let's hear it.

Okay. You can do this with eyes closed or eyes open. You can do this in a meeting when you've been triggered or at any time in communication. with your child, your spouse, or just to get coherent. First, shift your attention to the area around the heart. You can put your hand there if that helps, but your focus is getting from here to here. And then pretend your breath is flowing in and out of the heart or chest area, breathing a little slower, a little deeper than normal. Just find an easy rhythm that's comfortable.

Okay.

Times you can count like 5 seconds in, 5 seconds out, breathing through the heart, which is the coherence rhythm, coherence breathing used in the research. But you don't want to stay focused on the mind counting. You want to find that nice easy rhythm. A little deeper, a little breathing. Easier. And now, as you continue that heart-focused breathing, activate a feeling of gratitude or appreciation for someone or something in your life that's easy to appreciate. Time in nature, an accomplishment, a connection with somebody, your pet. Your child, and just breathe that feeling in through the area of the heart and out through the area. And it's that simple to stay in that state now and address the issue that you're wanting to address. You can get in a prompting intuitive. You will approach guarantee differently. than before when you were in that trigger reaction. Because if I had you, Zach, hooked up to our technology, you would have seen your heart rate variability shift into a smoother pattern.

Mm-hmm.

That means signal would've gone to your brain centers so that you would have more clarity, more synchronization, more bigger picture perception.

Okay.

I can feel it right now inside my, just my regular old Thursday afternoon body. But let's say I'm bought in. Let's say I'm interested in learning more. I want to participate. I want to get skills at this. Where do I go next? Do I download the app? What's the thing for me?

Yeah, go to heartmath.com and you'll see the technology there. You'll see the personal programs. You'll see the HeartMath Experience, which you can download as a video-based training program. with 5 techniques. And just go to heartmath.com and, and, or download the HeartMath app at the App Store or the Google Play Store.

Right on.

You wanna be able to, the wow through that simple technique, people can say, oh, that's just so simple, but you have to really do it to get the physiological shift. But if you get the technology, you get to watch it in real time and it trains you. It doesn't just track your HRV, it trains you to improve it.

I'm bought in. I'm gonna do it. Listen, you guys are a delight. Thank you so much for taking some time out of your afternoon to speak to me. I look forward to learning more about HeartMath, telling other people about it. Is there anything else that we need to know before we sign off?

I just want to appreciate you for having us on your program, having an opportunity to do this. Deborah and I have not been on an interview like this, you know, in quite a while where we're together on the same interview and talking about things like our relationship. It's different for us, and I appreciate the opportunity to do that. I hope that what What we have shared will be of help to you, the listener.

Well, it's of help to me, and it's going to be of help to my clients. So that's a start. And yeah, if you as a listener are interested, for sure, download the app. And I want to hear about it. If it works for you, then let me know, and we'll go from there.

And for you, Zach, go to harmouth.com and look up for the coaching. We have a coach certification program called Building Personal Resilience. That's what you would love. You'd be get heart math certified. You'd have all the tools, techniques, and science to teach your clients.

Okay, I'll check it out. Deborah and Howard, thank you so much for joining us on Marriage Therapy Radio, and I wish you a good afternoon.

Take care, Zach. Be well.

Bye bye.

I got a.