What Generational Trauma Skips and What It Doesn't w/Kara & Stacy (Zach's cousins)

For the record, everybody, this is Kara and Stacy. Kara is my favorite cousin. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on the podcast.

No, but everyone else should be able to hear that.

Your mom and my wife's mom are sisters.

That is correct.

Yeah, but you lost your mom. What was that, about 2 years ago?

Yeah, we can't really keep track, but we think it's almost 4.

Geez.

I know it is.

So that makes you and my wife first cousins. That makes Stacy and I, what, cousins-in-law or something like that?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you guys have been in the family for so long that you might have been longer than people have been born in this family.

Well, I've been— I sure have. I mean, I've been here 30 years, 30-something years. We were hanging out with Charlie and Miles the other day, and I was telling Charlie how I used to carry his dad around on my shoulders. He was like, what? That 42-year-old man or whatever, uh, used to ride on your shoulders? And I was like, yep, totally. So he's not quite— Charlie's not quite as old as Jack was when I met Jack, but, um, getting close. It's kind of wild.

It is very scary. Stacy's 26 years in this family. Um, so she's done time, but Zach, I don't know that we've ever actually shared this with you, but when you came to Ocean City, yes, you do know this. When you came to Ocean City the year, like we would put Abby and Jake on the Lazy Susie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh, and you— we thought the backpack thing that you had for Abby was so cool. And I remember very specifically we had a whole conversation about parenting after watching you rationalize and like explain to Abby, even though she was like so young. And we banked it and we're like, we're gonna, we're gonna do that when we become parents.

What, you mean I was a good parent to Abby? I was a good dad to Abby?

You were actually a very good communicator, believe it or not. She not think so.

What do you know?

I don't know. We, we, we were, we noted it.

You can do a lot of damage in 23 years between when they're infants and they don't have anything to say back to you and they're just like sponges. And then when they become humans and have opinions and stuff. So, um, I don't know. That's kind of—

I think you're telling me in counseling when they're younger, I mean, I'm bound to throw it up.

So yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm excited about grandkids. I'm excited about grandkids for this reason. I'm like, wait, you can just like love them up and like give them all this attention and not, not do any, like not create their childhood trauma and then just send them away. And then they don't, they're not mad at you forever. Like, I'm excited about that part.

So both of my kids are. And not alone.

Yeah. Right. It's kind of like I did with Charlie and Miles. It's like, you guys want some candy? And Libby's like, what?

No.

Uh, you know, I'm like, I got you. I'm ready to ask you the— I'm ready to ask you the main question that I have for the podcast today. Are you ready?

I— we are ready. Are you ready?

What's the most controversial thing you're willing to say about your family on this podcast?

Hmm.

8 billion people are gonna listen to it. And I mean, when I say your family, I mean, I mean the Robinson clan.

Oh. I, I am actually very comfortable talking about all aspects of, uh, my, uh, the Robinson side of the family. And so much so that I think the most controversial topic I recently just discussed with Ryland.

All right, so let's talk. Let's, let's orient the characters real quick, real quick. So Ryland is Wyatt. And how old is Wyatt?

Wyatt?

Yeah, that's his nickname for her.

Okay. Wyatt is 11 going on 40 since, since she was 2.

Yeah. No, Rebecca sent me a picture from the hibachi restaurant. The first thing I said was, Wyatt!

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She, she, she's a lot of joy.

Was she in the play? She was— it was her play?

No, but her friends came to sit with her to watch the play.

Right on. Right on. All right. Right. Why, uh, Ryland is 11 going on 42.

Mm-hmm.

And then you have Avery and he's 13.

13. Gonna be 14 in November.

Going on.

Yeah, about 13. Oh, about 13.

13 going on 13.

Intellectually, he probably surpasses us all. Social-emotionally, he's right where he needs to be.

Yeah, right on.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

He's a—

so, uh, with your 11-year-old daughter, you were, you were about to tell me the most controversial thing that you were talking about with her.

Mm-hmm. So I, I'm gonna preface this by saying, before coming onto this, I thought about all of the different, uh, touchpoints that Stacy and I have as a couple and parent that are very unique and not so unique simultaneously. Mm-hmm. Um, but intersect with like our professional identities, right? So for Ryland, Ryland, this came as a result of Ryland seeing your wife. Um, and so we had a whole conversation about our family and our kids.

Is the controversial thing about to be about my wife? Because we have to leave that out.

No, it actually has nothing to do with your immediate side of the family.

All right, good, good, good.

But you ask, when I think about like all the controversial things, I'm gonna name some things because none of them are off the table, and then I'll get to the most controversial, right? So we have lots of things, right, from that a lot of families and couples face, right, from alcoholism, to narcissism, to using money as control. But this stemmed around every time that Ryland is around her aunts, my mom's sisters, she always has questions. And part of the questions is like, well, why do we see them and we go there and all of that?

Mm-hmm.

So I answered, our most controversial is that we have an, uh, not a formally, uh, charged pedophile in the family that caused a, a slew of lots of other aspects. And so I do think it's like the—

It's like a trickle-down.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I was thinking about my own answer to the same question and I don't, we don't need to get into it because it's kind of not fair to pick on people when they're not present, but this idea that, uh, generational trauma is real. Like it flows down the mountain and this particular family, which is, you know, you and I and Stacy, maybe too, we hear all these stories all the time about generational trauma and maybe on a scale of 1 to 10, it's like a 7 or an 8 or something. Maybe it's somebody's 10 or somebody else's 4, but it doesn't matter. Like the impact is real and people are constantly trying to figure out how to navigate stopping it or correcting it. And Sounds like one of the ways you, you do that, or the two of you do that, is by being transparent and honest with your kids.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I would also add that to Stacy's family too. Stacy has a lot of gener— no, no, but generational trauma.

We're just sticking with Robinson.

No, but you have honest conversations with Ryland about—

Yes.

About the generational trauma from your, your part of the family too. Yeah.

Yeah, man. It's a, it's a wild scene. Um, well, I'm delighted to learn from you guys. Tell me what, tell me, tell me what you want us to know. What should we know? What do Kara and Stacy, what have you guys figured out that we, that the world should hear about? Again, 8 billion people are going to listen to this. Maybe that's the main thing.

We don't know a lot. And I think, uh, as, uh, an LGBT couple with neurodiverse children whose entire profession is centered around education and mental health, I think what we have not learned is, or not have had an opportunity, is to separate our personal and professional lives. Because we need the knowledge from our professional lives.

You don't get to clock out.

We don't.

You don't get to go make widgets and come home and then be parents.

Yeah. No.

I joke when I do introductions and talks and stuff that our love language is accommodations.

Is our love language is what?

Accommodations.

Accommodations.

What type of support?

Yeah. What type of support?

Yeah. Provide mostly Avery.

Yeah. But whether we're traveling or it's for school or we're prepping for something else, uh, I feel like the off switch was one that we have, I would say, not figured out, but understand that we have to seek out other things to to not be on all the time in those moments.

Yeah. So what do you do? What do you seek out?

Yeah. So the fun fact is there was a time period where I would leave the house all the time and find that outside of the house because I needed to remove myself from the scenario in order to not be on. And now we're in a scenario where everything I wanna do is here and Stacy is leave, which is good for her, is now leaving to do things for herself. So we have a great shift in this moment right now. And then for us together—

Stacy, what's your face? What is your face saying?

Yeah. She didn't know where I was going.

Well, and it's because I play pickleball. That's what it's where I go. I don't know.

Yeah, it is.

It's not an escape. It's where I go. To play pickleball.

And so exercise and socialize.

Okay. Mostly exercise.

Yeah.

Not talk too much.

Mm-hmm.

But giggle and—

And then I get the stories. She comes home and tells me her stories.

No, I'm not allowed. Pickleball stays at pickleball.

What happens at pickleball stays at pickleball? I interviewed a couple.

I don't know. I don't think Carol wants to know about pickleball.

I do want to know about pickleball. Stacy, so you don't necessarily know this, Zach, but you do know how good of a player Stacy is in general. I do.

I do know. Yes.

And so as she's evolved in pickleball, you know, she's been kicked out of leagues for being too good and has had to find alternate play. And so she does drive some ways to fill that need. And so much so that they are, I mean, she's working towards entering the professional circuit on the 50-year-old circuit.

Oh yeah. That's pretty exciting. Do you know, do, do you know, do the two of you know that, uh, yes, I got sent the book. No, that— yes, the book. I sent you the book or whatever. Um, no, but that when last time we were in Ocean City, I think it was the last time we were in Ocean City and there was a tennis match. Do you remember this tennis match?

I do. I have pictures of it. Libby was there. I have a picture.

Do you know it was the cause of a very significant months-long rift between some people in our family? Well, I am one of them.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and, uh, yeah, it took a minute, uh, like about, about 2 months to come back from the damage that was done from that tennis match. But I'll tell you that another time.

Yeah, we— so we— so Stacy called.

So Libby— so Libby was there.

Yeah.

And Stacy was there, and Mary was there.

Mary.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

There was a person. Mm-hmm. There was.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

I don't even remember.

Yeah. See, that's the thing. Stacy's really, Stacy's amazing that she could leave it all on the court.

I don't know.

Yeah. But I haven't played tennis in like one week.

Well, maybe since then.

Yeah. Since then, actually.

Yeah. But before that I didn't even play.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You played a lot of tennis that day. You played a, you played a lot of tennis that day. Vis-à-vis your partner who, uh, did not play very much tennis that day.

Was it Kaylee?

I don't know who I played.

It was Mary. It was Mary.

Mary played with Libby.

Yeah, so who did I play? I played with Rebecca. Did I play with Emily?

I have no idea.

Yes. Uh, oh yeah, totally. See, I forgot that too. Yeah, I was watching the whole time.

Yeah, no, um, No, it's wild, man.

I—

what's cool about being in a family for 30 years is you ebb and flow and you come and go and you learn and you don't and whatever. So, um, and then you collect all these stories that become like legends in the family. And so it's, it's pretty fun. I didn't even know that I had a— that was part of a legend with Abby and the backpack, but whatever. But we were in the middle of telling— you were telling me maybe what your face was saying. What was your face saying? You didn't know where she was headed?

Yeah, no, I just, it was about pickleball.

Right.

She thinks I don't like it. She thinks it's a, it's a, a, a point of contention in our family. Mm-hmm. Well, okay. Or our relationship, not our family.

Is it?

Um, no, the, the, the drastic shift, this is what I was explaining about the professional thing, is Stacy studies tape.

Okay.

Oh.

So, If we are sitting and watching TV, she is on the phone watching pickleball and getting strategy.

Watching real people play pickleball. You're not like studying opponents coming up or something. You're like watching for— there's a whole channel. There's like a whole pickleball channel. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I watch tips and then I watch myself.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And then I get myself, uh, analyzed by AI.

Mm-hmm.

And then I read About it. Mm-hmm. So I think Kara was trying to say I'm not present.

Yes.

Do we need to have that conversation?

No, we've had this conver— I mean, we could have this conversation with everyone else, but we've also had this conversation. The positive aspect is, is like Stacy also didn't have a hobby for a long time. There was no outlet from our kids. So this is amazing, both physically and emotionally. And Stacy is one who likes to react with no thought. Like she doesn't wanna think.

Mm-hmm.

And pickleball actually allows her not to think. So I think these are all good things.

Mm-hmm.

But Stacy is also goal-driven. Whereas like for me, me and my ADHD, it doesn't matter if I have a checklist, if I feel like it, uh, if I may have the energy to do it, I can do it. But Stacy's like clockwork. She could just keep moving and pickleball, uh, does that for her. And so she's goal-oriented right now.

Mm-hmm.

And so if she has a goal, she's gonna meet it and she's gonna get there. And so right now it, it takes a lot of her attention, but at the same time, like we just, Stacy mentioned this, her, uh, favorite thing to do in a perfect day is to have a drink and go to comedy. And so we did just do that. So a lot of our dates, like we know how to mend that particular piece and we do have these conversations. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

You have, uh, you have your own independent lives and then you have the one that you bring together. Uh, maybe through comedy. Who do you like? Who, who, who are your comedians? Who are your go-tos? Or what kind of comedy do you like?

You go first. You have your own.

Oh, I like clean comedy. I don't like any crude people. I don't wanna hear too much intimate things about them. I, I like just good, happy. Uh, we just saw Marcello.

So you like Nate Bargatze more than you like Nikki Glaser, for example?

I'm okay with her.

She's— yeah, she's okay with her. She— to me, when she's in the, like, in the Kevin Hart and the roasting and that kind of stuff, then she crosses that line. But she could also—

Yeah, I could roast. I just, um, I guess I just don't want to hear sexually about anybody.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's the thing that she does. She kind of made her bread and butter on that for a while where she was talking about how loose she was, but then I think she's kind of come more mainstream and has had to, like, dial it in a little bit and be more crowd-friendly. But, um, anyway, we can just—

We did just see Marcelo Hernandez.

I mean, I like—

I don't know who that is.

Um, he's Saturday Night Live. Um, he's kind of like the new relevant comedian, and he's only like 20 years old.

He's 20.

He's on SNL, and he just had a— him and Kevin Hart just came out with a movie on Netflix too. Um, and that was actually really fun to watch as— because they're all comedians, because he's the old guard and they're the new guard. Uh, so there's a lot of like generational play on it. Um, who else did you say you like?

I like Wanda Sykes.

Yeah.

Like old school.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's pretty cool.

Yeah.

Um, well, I would love, I mean, listen, I would love for you to tell us about things that people maybe don't know about. Tell us about what, uh, I don't wanna pigeonhole you guys, but it's clear that you're lesbians. Like, what should we know about an LGBTQ relationship that maybe isn't obvious. Is it, should we know that it's kind of the same or is there something specific or different that is important? And then you mentioned that you have neurodiverse kids, which of course I know, but like, what's that like? Uh, you know, um, so we're just shooting the breeze here, but what, what do you want us to know that you, that maybe we don't know about or that the, that is interesting or unique about the two of you? Um, also here's an obvious one, right? Carrie, you're kind of a lot, right? Like you, you can come out and you have a lot to say and you're run the show, and Stacy, you're much more willing to sort of wallflower it a bit. How does that work? Does that— is that— is that okay?

I love it.

Tell them.

Tell them what?

So everyone believes this because I am a lot— I'm comfortable in my own skin, I talk, and they think Stacy plays this like meek person who doesn't talk all the time or whatever the case. She used to do this to my mother too.

I only have enough energy to Talk a little. Yeah.

We just have to pick the, pick the right fight.

No, not even a fight. Um, we don't fight like that.

Yeah.

Just have enough energy just to, I don't even know, but I mean, we're 50/50.

So we'll give you the plus aspect to the, to women.

If she wants to talk, go ahead.

The one thing that, so here's a prime example. So Ryland has really good friends. We're friends with their parents. And so I had the moms over for like a night out on Friday night and—

Ryland's friends have 2 moms also?

No, Ryland's 3 friends' moms were here.

Okay, all right, gotcha.

Yes, we are the only lesbian couple of that group. And, you know, and the same thing when you talk to people at work, like they get to these places and spaces and talk about their mental load, right, or issues they have with their husbands that they wish they carried more of this, that, and the other. And my motto is always like, well, that's why everyone should have a wife. Period. You know, it's like the joke, but in a lot of ways, Stacey and I do share a lot of things that we watch other women, and particularly moms, have to navigate. So that's the plus. On the downside, we've never really had anything traumatic or negative as a result of our relationship. But, you know, just like there's ableism and any other -ism, you know, we've had to navigate so much.

Mm-hmm.

school with our children and no, you're not going to donuts with dad. Like it's just not happening kind of deal. And those things still tend to like come up, but I would say our, our, even our kids were like glorified when they were younger because all the younger kids wanted to have another mom. Mom was their safe person. So we've been very fortunate, I would say.

Well, we had, we picked a town where we could be correct, happy. And not ostracized or that we could be included. So, I mean, deciding where you live, deciding what schools your kids go to, that's something you have to think about more.

Actually, the state we live in was, was huge for us too. Before, it really needed to be even bigger than what it was right now, you know?

Well, because you, you weren't— were you in Florida together?

Yeah.

Yes. And we got out of there.

And we got out. Stacy chose New Jersey. Of all the places we had options at the time, Stacy chose here because also at the time they had common law. This is before it was legalized marriage.

Common law. Then, uh, what was that called?

Yeah, I can't think of what it actually is called.

Civil union.

Civil union. That's it.

Then it became marriage.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you did that. You're married.

Yes.

Twice.

Well, we did civil union.

Yeah, we did the civil union, but that wasn't good enough. So when they legalized it, they needed— they wanted your money.

Yeah.

So then we had to pay all over again.

It was a year later.

Did I come to that? Was I invited to that?

Or did we do that?

You went to the Hawaiian luau, the original one.

I did? I was probably drunk because that was a long time ago.

I'm pretty confident you probably had a coconut bra on. I mean, I'm sure, but I don't know.

I believe you. I believe you.

Um, I have visions of Jack personally. So.

That's amazing. That feels like a, I mean, a lot of the, a lot of these stories, right, feel like a lifetime ago for, for me and for us. And it's wild too. I forget how young your kids are because I've been in this transition with like trying to graduate kids into adulthood and turn them into people, right? Like the, like the thought of my, I mean, I have fond memories of us at the beach or whatever with them as babies and whatnot, but I can't, I can almost not even remember what it's like to try and parent. infants, much less toddlers, much less, you know, regular kids like Charlie and Miles. And then, you know, these teenagers, I'm still like, oh, how do I actually just debate, you know, current events with people who have strong feelings about them? You know?

Um, yeah, I can't really— time is lost on me, number one, in a post-COVID world. I think prior to COVID—

Well, that's the other— yes, of course.

Right.

With this giant 2-year gap in our developmental process. Okay. Sorry, I forgot about COVID too.

So we also, in addition to having neurodiverse kids, had kids in the wrong time period developmentally for COVID, I think was also it. So we were already navigating a lot of challenges pre-COVID. The fallout from COVID is probably what I would consider my kids' generational trauma in some ways. And it's grief and loss, really.

Yeah, yeah. You each carried one of your children.

Hmm.

I had to wait to see if Avery was cute, and he wasn't cute until 3 months old.

Yeah.

And then you're like, okay, we have another one. And, um, and they have the same, uh, donor, the same paternal donor. Right on. Okay. And how'd you make that decision?

That was weird.

It, it did not come to the decision that we had originally made. So I think we talked— I've always wanted kids. I always wanted 2 kids. And so early on in our relationship, I was gonna have both kids.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and then she—

She said, go ahead.

And then she said, yeah, sure, great. I'll bleed along for the ride.

No problem.

And then 2 things happened simultaneously. One, uh, you know, I was in the hospital for a month after, uh, Avery. So Avery went home and I stayed in the hospital.

That didn't affect me.

That did not. My decision didn't affect you. But At the exact same time, Stacy's sister had their first child. And just to backtrack, Stacy, remember, was like— isn't a science inclusion teacher. So she also was like, oh, genetic experiment in a way, kind of too. And so then she decided after her sister had a kid, I think I can do that. And then that's how that went down. And I was like, I will gladly let you have this second kid.

Yeah, I'm good.

I stepped right into it.

What did you just tell us? They're 3 years apart? You just— is that what you just said?

They're 2 and a half to the day.

Yeah, the day?

To the day. Same, same as my sister and I, believe it or not.

To the day.

Right on. Do you want to give, uh, do you want to give Kendra a shout out? What, what, what should we know about Kendra, you and your sister? Anything? She's gonna listen. She's gonna want to know.

So here's the thing, my sister and I's had the exact same relationship since she was probably 18, I think. Prior to that was a little rocky, you know. Yeah, that's what happens when you grow up and she's older and pull each other's hair and all that. But I mean, I have literally talked to my sister probably at least once a day for my entire life.

Kendra's very giving.

She is. I, I would say Kendra's the most understood person in our family.

Misunderstood? Yeah, misunderstood.

Misunderstood. And particularly her immediate family. But, um, Yeah. Uh, Kendra—

Why do you say that?

Um, well, don't think that this isn't gonna be our lives either, but Kendra is one of the 4 kids. Come on.

Yeah.

All within like a year apart of each other. Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like she was just pregnant for like 10 years straight.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And she has literally supported, uh, those kids, her husband, then went back to, to work and still as young adults provides a lot for them. That I think is taken for granted, um, and assumed in a lot of ways. And so they're not, they're not that nice to her.

Hmm.

Yeah.

But also our child's not that nice to us for different reasons too.

So, you know, when you say misunderstood, you mean misunderstood by her own kids?

Yes.

By her own family, huh?

Yeah. I also think this is generational and, you know, as each generation it changes too, but they have the story that they have in their mind.

Yeah.

And breaking a story.

Yeah. Do you know who loves Kendra and Jay? Jansen.

Really?

Yeah, he's crazy about them. He thinks they're like the best.

Oh, because they did get— oh, because they've been— well, yeah, I think they've been the best. Yeah, you know, that's family right there. That's how I look at it.

Yeah, right on.

Cool.

Who else should we touch? Uh, should we talk about— we, um, we've covered, maybe everybody's gotten name-dropped so far. But now I want to go back to this other thing you said. Why don't you two fight?

Yeah.

Do you know that this is a very contention with some of my friends who cannot understand that we do not fight? And I wouldn't say that we're—

We disagree.

We totally disagree. And I think that we have diff— like, we are— I think we have communication skills. So communication skills are going to be transparent, and you're going to talk about it. And even if it's one of those things where, like, uh, we won't talk about it right now in this moment because for whatever reason, it doesn't mean that it ever goes past the day either. But we're not— we're a team. And so I, I've said this to someone recently, like, I I've always seen Stacy, and I believe this about whoever your partner is, is your best friend.

Okay.

And so there is no reason why I don't wanna communicate all of my thoughts and feelings to my best friend or share in the joy with my best friend. And I don't wanna avoid my best friend, right?

Yeah.

In a lot of ways. And so I don't know that we've, I mean, I, the, the one, we had 2 larger discussions that I can think of in these last 26 years. But one of 'em, I did hang up on her.

Mm-hmm.

And it wasn't a true fight, but we were going away with the friends and, um, she wanted to drive in a car behind us with the dog cuz she didn't wanna board the dog.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, nah, I'm— when you hear the tone, this is her line that she taught me. I was like, when you hear the tone, you're on your own. This is very unreasonable. And that I consider like one of our fights.

When you hear the tone, you're on your own. What does that mean?

When you hang up, you're on your own. The tone, the dial tone basically is giving you the warning. I know. Not like we don't love the tone anymore.

Okay. All right. Kendra and Jay fight, or do they bicker?

Um, I would say they've gotten better through the years, but I think that that's the undoing part of that story.

Yeah. But they like to just express themselves outwardly.

Yeah. I think they bicker.

I think they're like, they're different communicators. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna say anything I regret because, you know, words can, words hurt. So it's best not to say anything when you're in the moment cuz those, you know, angry feelings will subside. And then what you say, that's, so that's, that could be remembered forever.

You wanted to tell, um, Zach your first Thanksgiving with our family?

Oh no.

Yes.

Absolutely. Yes. You do want to tell Zach about your first Thanksgiving with the family.

No.

All right. So, you know, Kendra and Jay, they have 4 kids and, you know, they're—

They did not have 4 kids at that time, Sharon.

They had, it felt like 12.

They had one.

Uh-huh. You sure?

Yeah. I think Jay—

There was a lot of kids and a lot of needs from those kids. I'm hungry. I'm tired. You know, whatever kids say. And, uh, yeah, Jay, he, I think he was mad at somebody. Name a kid, he's probably mad at them, but only—

None of the kids were talking and Jake was the only one bored, so she's giving a lot of grace right now.

He was mad at some kid wanting something. You know, they never stop. And he was just mad at the kid and then he threw, um, a remote control, but like it did ricochet off a few things and kind of got in my vicinity, but He like, he code switched and he was like right out of the anger and was like, oh no, are you okay? So I thought it was amusing. I was like, well, yeah, it's, I'm fine. How are you? But it, I understand being mad at your kid, trust. But also they can get you furious.

Stacy also grew up with people who were a yeller, I guess I would say, or, or a hot temper.

Hot temper.

So she didn't flinch, but I was cringing watching the remote go right here. And you know, Jay, when he's pissed, he could fling something.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it didn't bother me. Yeah.

That was her first, uh, meeting of everyone.

Oh God.

Good grief.

Uh-huh.

My first meeting— do you, do you, do you know what my first meeting of Stacy was?

Where? At Ocean City?

No.

This is the, this is the story I have, and I don't know if this is the truest story or not, but You, Kara, were at my house with your sister and your mom in the tiny, tiny, tiny house.

In Norwalk?

Nope, in Seattle. You were visiting, and I don't think you were out yet, but I think you were on the phone with Stacy, and you were so happy and so filled with just like joy and glee. I was like, Kara loves that. Whoever that is, Kara loves that lady. Like, that is a Is that, is that, was that Stacy that you were on the phone with?

Probably somebody else.

It was. I, I actually, I'm gonna let you continue on, but that, that actually is, you know, like we have a story based on that story.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

No, I was like, and I told Rebecca, I was like, Kara's, Kara's, Kara's gay. And she was like, no. And I was like, yeah. I was like, you, you, if you watch that phone call just now, like you—

Yeah.

You guys didn't meet Steph at like Judy's?

We met her, but you weren't like owning that. No, we didn't tell anybody. Like in a really explicit way.

No, it wasn't.

And I don't think it was a secret. I don't think anybody was like, what? Kara's gay? That wasn't like that. It was just more like it was not yet a thing. It wasn't yet your identity. And then— Yeah, you're right. Anyway, so I was excited to meet this lady that turned you into a, like, a puddle. That was pretty fun.

That trip was actually very significant for us. So here's what you don't know. Stacy and I were together for 6 months. She was graduating and leaving college. So we broke up, essentially.

We didn't.

So I wrote—

Kara thinks we did break up.

So that day I got on a plane to go to Seattle and she got on the auto train to go to Florida. That's not breaking up. And then Kendra, my mom, and I came out to Seattle. And on my way there, I wrote a 13-page letter that I then ended up sending her. And then we ended up, when I came back from Seattle, getting back together.

That's the beginning.

There was no breaking up. You were going on vacation. I was happening to go to Florida. And then—

See the stories we tell ourselves.

Yeah, totally.

I swear.

The story I tell myself is that I am responsible for the two of you having the green light because I, I endorsed it emotionally before anyone else was any— none the wiser. During that trip, we went and saw— this is a fun piece of trivia from that trip that you probably don't know. We went to a movie. Do you remember what movie we saw?

No, I still remember being seasick from the whales.

Yeah, we went and saw Pearl Harbor in the theater. Oh yeah, the theater was packed and I was against the wall inside of like 15 or 20 people. And after that movie, I had to go to the bathroom so bad and I peed longer than I have ever peed in my entire life at that time. So that's a, that's a That's a story for— that's a story for me from that trip. I have a few others.

Tom Hanks. Nice.

No, he's not in that movie. Uh, that's like—

No, but he has that scene in, um, A League of Their Own, uh, where he pees and it just keeps going and going.

Of course you guys know A League of Their Own.

Yeah. Did you see your mother-in-law? She had a whole library of taped movies on VHS.

I'm hoping that we can I accidentally mentioned her once already, so, um, I—

He's referring to the other part.

Yeah, I know. I know.

Yeah.

I mean, I did play softball.

Yeah, I know. Do you know I'm obsessed with— with— did you— you've learned that I'm obsessed with softball now?

Yeah.

Yeah. I just, uh, Emily gave me a Husky softball t-shirt. Emily and John and the whole family gave me a Husky softball. It's my favorite t-shirt. I love it. I'm so— I, I— we're like totally into it. Um, I want to go back to something real though. Uh, talk to us about how, or like, how does raising neurodivergent kids, like what philosophy or theory have you formed? Or what is the, what's the thing that we would want to know or should know about that? Like, what have you learned that, uh, maybe I have never learned?

Genetics does not play a part of Uh, your— how your child turns out.

Okay.

I don't know who—

Because the two of you are— you two are both like hyper mainstream or like hyper, hyper—

Like, Rylan is the opposite of me. I don't know where I thought I was like, yeah, I'm gonna have someone cool like me, right? No, complete opposite. But she's still cool.

Rylan is— no, okay, I was about to say, did you just say Rylan is not cool? But Rylan is—

No, Rylan is pure joy.

Yeah, she's cool.

She's cool.

But, but genetically she didn't get it from me. But, um, everything you think of your kid, it's gonna turn out the opposite of whatever you think. But you, um, but you have— but which is beautiful in a way. Um, I don't know, you just never— you, you know, when you imagine your kid, you're like, oh, this kid's gonna be this, that, that.

Mm-hmm.

But the kid is nothing like that. And then you, um, have to embrace it.

Yeah.

So I would say that's the hardest part for me.

Oh, I thought that was the beauty of it.

No. So I, so, okay. So here's the difference, right? I always grew up knowing I wanted 2 kids and I had a vision or a philosophy of what I wanted that to be like for me as a parent.

Yeah.

And that— so one, no one has time for your own generational trauma because you have to keep moving from what's happening in front of you. And then the second part of it is, is that there is a lot of grief and loss that is self-imposed, right? And so part of it was like the expectations that I thought I would be as a parent, I can't be because that is not who my child is, right?

Right on.

So we're going to adjust to that. And there was a moment a couple of years ago, like, where I was like driving to work and I was crying and I was like, It was outta nowhere, but it, it was still this like continuation of grief and loss in the sense of like, you know, we've worked really hard at providing the right supports for our kids, for who they are.

Accommodations, your love language.

Yeah.

And also our child will never know or appreciate or ever think about it ever. Right. And so as a thoughtful emotional person, Right? That is kind of like, it's one example of many. But, um, and then there are also things that we've been able to do, uh, that we wouldn't be able to do, right?

Mm-hmm.

And, but I would say I feel like I have been in a process of grief and loss once I got rid of my own ex— self-imposed expectations.

Mm-hmm.

And then the second part of it is, is COVID really Hurt him, hurt our oldest, uh, and really set us back a lot. And I'm still grieving that in a lot of ways while celebrating who he is.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That's such an intriguing perspective. Like, I think it's so easy to say something like, yeah, I had these kids and I had this vision for what these kids were gonna be. And they just, those kids aren't the thing that I thought they were gonna be. Like, I get that. I can actually kind of like, I have some twisted expectations of my own, but I don't think I've ever grappled with I didn't get to be the parent that I pre-predicted myself to be because I was dealt this hand of cards that is playable and maybe even delightful, but just not, not consistent with what I thought I was going to be doing. Like, I don't think I've ever thought about it in that way before. And that, that comes with a certain amount of loss, even of a thing you never had. Like, you'd— all you had was an imagination, you know? That's pretty wild.

Yeah. So I do say that it is self-imposed, probably societal imposed also in a lot of ways. But at the same time, it's what I thought. And then I think the hardest part is, is that as you engage, as we engage with other people or kids or the same age or this, that, and the other, and I know enough to like not compare, but we also know how in certain aspects are easier for parents than it is for us. Like we— Oh my God.

Anything.

My cortisol levels have never gone down. It's been stuck in survival mode for—

Simple things like kids eating, kids sleeping, kids— what else did they do?

Actually, you raised—

Wait, wait, you, uh, to your, to your point about love languages and accommodations, I mean, you had a trampoline in your living room.

Still do.

Still do.

And now, now it has 4,000— well, it did, it had 4,000, uh, balls in it. I don't know, what do you call them?

Um, like a ball pit. It's like a—

Yes.

Yeah.

We still have the swing though.

We have an A-frame.

So if there are any engineers who are listening, I really need the big round swing, uh, to be like how the baby swings used to be.

Tethered to the ceiling.

Tethered or to the ceiling. I need someone to invent something so that he will probably continue to do this for his life because this is how he regulates.

Yeah. We have an A—

And he's so good at it.

We have an A-frame swing in front of the fireplace. Who knew we even had one?

Mm-hmm.

And it's So loud and squeaky. So we need something from the ceiling that like you press a button and it pops down and then you press a button and it goes back up.

I am confident that some engineer is listening to this and I'm going to get an email about how to solve your ceiling problem.

But I don't want the bill to go with it too.

No, we'll be the prototype people.

They're going to volunteer. I know it. They love, they love the podcast so much and they empathize so much with your story that they're going to volunteer their services.

I mean, the kid's like 150 pounds right now.

Yeah, I think the— that's what we're gonna run out of ways to keep the weight down if we don't do something, because he just loves listening to music and just whack back and forth. Also communication, Zach.

That's a word that you just said.

It is a word that is also a grief and loss too, of figuring out how you have to communicate differently and that Uh, connection.

Well, you just go back to, you just go back to remembering what I said to Abby about whatever I said. I don't remember what it was, but apparently that was the, uh, pictures.

Yeah, we still do pictures.

Yeah, everything's visual.

We have to do pictures. I mean, he can read and write, but he processes quicker and nicer with pictures and humor. I mean, I remember we, where'd we go? Uh, Busch Gardens. And it took 45 minutes for him to get out of the car. So 45 minutes of trying to show him funny, silly pictures to get him calm enough. He was just so anxious.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and worried about every ride, even though he doesn't even go on rides. Mm-hmm. But, uh, that was a long time. And then even, uh, him, like he's been potty trained, but him forgetting he has to go to the bathroom. Like his body doesn't tell him. So I got pictures on my phone. It's like a picture of a toilet just to show him.

Huh. Do you need to go?

Like, and you can't ask him, do you need to go to the bathroom? Because he tells you, stop treating me like I'm 5. So I have to show him the toilet and then he'll be like, hmm.

I'll think about it. Yeah.

Yeah, maybe. That sounds fun.

Well, the other thing is too, is you know how much money we have had to spend to like attempt to do something and then like it can't on the day of, can't happen also. So I do think about that. And we were very— this was our parenting philosophy even before we had kids, we were gonna like expose them to different things, blah, blah, blah. We had like this— I am laughing about this one conversation we had about like how performative it is looking back of what it was. But, um, I think we were very early on, we're like, we're gonna go even once a month, even if it's for like a night in a hotel somewhere as a family. Um, because that is when everything shuts down and it's just us. So we still do this.

It's like camping for us.

But for him, it was strategic that we never wanted— we wanted him to be able to be flexible.

Mm-hmm.

In the sense of like, not just in one space. And so it was a very intentional and, uh, financial decision. But—

Well, even, I mean, also financial. Like if we go to say Universal, we have to buy VIP tickets because we can't wait in lines. It's impo— it's, it's impossible. And even if they fast pass you, we need it even faster than that.

Mm-hmm.

Like His patience and his tolerance for standing, his tolerance for heat, uh, his tolerance for some type of smell.

So you're not actually, I mean, you're, uh, it's a little bit of a joke, but it's actually pretty, pretty amazing that your love language is in fact accommodation. Like you have to be creative and thoughtful and have to think of and diligent. Yeah.

Even getting him to the theater, you have to think of so many things. Like, to his play today. And then you have to think of the escape plan. Whose car is quicker? Whose car is closer to the actual theater or to the ice cream shop that we're going after? Or it's too hot, who has an umbrella? I don't know. It's, uh—

And also, whilst making it go as smoothly as possible so Ryland doesn't miss out.

Yes, we make that a point to—

A priority.

We make sure that she's never in charge of him. She's a sibling. She's gonna have a fun little kid life.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and she is not gonna miss out. Um, if he has to, if he goes home, I go home with him. Oh well.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm happy with that. And my dog is there.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, but, and then sometimes Kara will stay, you know, with Ryland and if it's an amusement park or whatever. Or somebody's house. So yeah, sometimes 2 cars or an escape plan.

It's a lot of work.

Yeah.

And I don't, I think everyone has a lot of work. I, I will say that, right? Everyone has different degrees.

Yeah.

I think that there, the, there is no off because the off is how are we prepping for tomorrow?

Right.

Or like the next thing, which does, I think that's the other part. We always were communicators before we ever had kids. I don't think we survive any of this without continuing that level of communication.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's like you, it's like we said a little bit earlier, like somebody's 8 might be somebody else's 6, might be somebody else's 2 or 4. Like everybody's challenged and trying to figure it out. But it reminds me too, like, do you, have the two of you formed a theory or philosophy around generational trauma? Like, as you think about like, uh, we know it's real. It's come up 3 or 4 times in that, in our talk today, but like, What do you think? Like, what's your, what's the, what's the, uh, yeah, I don't want to put too many words in your mouth, but like, what do you, what do you think? So it's, how are you tackling it? Addressing it?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think about this in a lot of ways, like my growing up, right. My parents got divorced when I was 3 and that was like a very big deal for the time period in the '70s. It just was. Right. So I feel like that level of adversity in school was like, we were the only, and I think my whole life I've been like the only.

Mm-hmm.

In our family, I was the only heavier set person, right? I'm not blonde hair, blue eyes, right? I'm the only lesbian that we know of right now in that immediate cousin group. And so I feel like I had, I took on that persona, but I don't know if that was necessarily me. And the reason I say this is when I look back at generational trauma, I think to be fair, while I was adjacent to everyone else, my mom served as a buffer.

Hmm.

And so when my mom passed and I was writing like her eulogy, I wasn't sad like everyone else was. I was like celebrating who she was and what she did for us and recognizing that my mom, even though, you know, we were also the poorest of the group, you know, whatever, single family. And so I, for me, I feel like in retrospect, looking back at the ways in which my mom buffered us and like was something that I was doing already for my own children and for myself without recognizing it until that moment. And that I was really fortunate.

Your mom was a, she's, she's an outlier in that group too. Like, uh, just so full of just kind of love and Resilience. Like it was just everybody you had, you can sort of complain about everybody, but like, what do you complain about, Jeannie? You're sort of like, no, she loves you and she accommodates you and she takes care of like, um, you know, she, she, she just had boundary issues too. But I mean, it wasn't ever an imposition, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. I think they got worse through the years, but the boundary issues were to get us what we needed. Like if I really think about it, like that's Yeah. Really what it was. She was a survivor. And so I would say the one thing that generational trauma has affected me in that sense was I was really doing okay until the, I'll call it 2009, 2010, like really downfall of everyone in our, the, that spiraled in our family. And it's one of those things now where you have to go back, right? And now you have to go back and look at your entire life through a different lens.

Yeah.

Because if you had asked me, I'd have been like, I had the greatest childhood, even though all these things, right? Um, but then you're forced to be like, oh yeah, it wasn't necessarily the same for everyone involved. And also like the story you tell yourself.

Yeah.

That's what I'm gonna name this, the story you tell yourself.

Mm-hmm.

That's the, that's the title of this episode.

Yeah.

Right on. Stacy, do you have theories about generational trauma?

Um, well, I was raised by wolves, so I have generational trauma, but I try not to, um, like, uh, exert that onto the children.

Yeah.

And then, um, I, I think I explained like my parents to, to Ryland. uh, developmentally like appropriate.

Like, I don't, I don't know your parents. Are they around? Do your, your parents, just, uh, parents here? Yeah, yeah.

They're alive and kicking.

Okay.

They're normal now. Growing up, normal.

Really? I wouldn't call them normal right now.

No, they're more normal now than they were growing up. Um, so I think with Ryland, I just try to explain events that has happened. to talk like and explain it to like how an 11-year-old would understand. I don't know, honesty, but yet, you know, keeping it child-friendly.

Mm-hmm.

And still saying, you know, they're, they're good people. They tried their best.

Mm-hmm.

Shit happened.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah.

And the, these are the values I believe in. And just go from there.

Do you think tennis was your escape from that?

Um, yeah.

It was your way out.

I mean, it was, yeah. Yeah. Athletics. Yeah. Mm-hmm. My, my sister had academics and athletics. I had athletics and then academics. Um, but yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you just, you grow up and then you just You gotta deal— I don't know, you deal with it and then you gotta do better.

I would say we both like, uh, what's it, detoxified? Does that make sense?

Sure.

Yeah. Um, and earlier on in our— when we were first dating, I think we had these conversations also about our families and who we are as a like results of them in, in a lot of ways. Um, yeah.

Yeah, I don't know, man. I think, uh, particularly with regard to my alcoholism and Rebecca's, like, we've been clear about our desire to sort of stop that piece of the generational trauma rolling down, like, to kind of give our kids a real clear vision of recovery. But the thing that we're finding is that, like, Trauma makes its own rules. Like it gets to decide what gets passed down and what doesn't get passed down. Like we might think, oh, we plugged that dam, but then there's like another hole over there that we didn't even think about, you know? And so you just, you do, I guess you do your best and hope that, uh, hope that somehow your kids end up better off than you do. So that's our, uh, that's our, uh, current strategy or plan.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. I wanna ask you one more question because nobody on the podcast can answer this question. You, you two are that I've had on before. Um, What can you tell me about my marriage?

I need a little more.

She would like a sub-question.

What? She would like a follow-up question? Um, I don't know. I was just thinking about how, like, in, in here I do all this outbound inquiry into other people's stories and other people's lives and other people's marriages. And, um, nobody knows Rebecca. I mean, they've met her and she's the hero of all my stories on the podcast, but like, when you think about The, the 25 or so years that you've observed me or us, what would you say? Do you have any, do you have any insights apart from the fact that I'm a really emotionally intelligent parent, uh, as to an infant? It's okay if you don't. I just wondered if you might have a—

No, I'm going to give it thought, but Cece's normally one who has a, who can like, um, if she had a thought, it would come out first. So I'm trying to give it to her.

I'm off on this one.

I, I also am like, Stacey's one of those people that also doesn't take information and leave it there. It's like if there's no reason for her to know anything about it, it's just not there. So I'm also saying that. And my example is Stacey could fall asleep within 3 seconds any day, anytime, because she doesn't need to let her brain shut down. She's not retaining all of that and keep thinking and stewing in thoughts. So that's, that's, I'm also saying that's probably why she can't answer this question.

That's okay. That's okay. Maybe that's good. Maybe that, maybe we haven't left a, uh, an impression, at least not a traumatic one. So that's, that's, uh, I'll take that to the bank.

So I would say similarly, um, and maybe not necessarily at the exact moment in times, but I would say that you've all been very transparent about what is happening in the ebbs and flows of your relationships. And I would say I've watched, uh, both of you, uh, be unhealthy at different times, right? So like, yeah, one is healthier and then the other is not, and then it's like a roller coaster plus the external stuff.

We used to joke that we had 100% between us, so if I was like 80, 80% healthy, she would be 20% healthy, you know.

Yes.

And so I think for most couples, right, that either makes or breaks you on a— on the journey. Because at some point, uh, if there tends to be like a resentment or whatever the case may be, I think you don't survive it, right?

Yeah.

Um, so I do think the strength of you both— and you know, we're in very similar professions, so it's also hard to admit at times too— is like You can't feel or rationalize your way out of anything in your relationship, right? Like, it's, it's as naked as it could be, literally and figuratively.

Yeah. I always tell people that I don't have a perfect marriage, but I don't have any excuses either. Like, uh, if I'm gonna screw it up, at least I know that, you know, whatever it is, it's like the plumber who comes home is like, yeah, I'm just going to leave those pipes leaky. Who cares? You know, like there's no excuse for that, even if your pipes are leaking. You guys are the coolest. I love talking to you. I'm glad that we, I'm glad that I heard a rumor that you were interested in coming on the podcast. Stacy, I'm glad that you finally heard the rumor today that that was a thing that was happening.

You heard yesterday.

I heard, yeah. And I got a text reminder too.

Right on. And, uh, cool. Is there anything else you want us to know before we log off? So there again, there's 8 billion people who are, who are, uh, sitting here waiting for your wisdom. What is it? What's the, what's the parting?

Thank you to the engineer.

Yes, we'll give you our contact info.

No, right on.

Um, wait, I did have one. Ask that question one more time so it spawns it for me.

Is there anything else? Is there anything else you want the world to know about, uh, Kara and Stacy, or about marriage, or about parenting, or about just life in general, that before we log off? You got 7 billion people who are listening, and this is your moment. You go.

You asked us for our philosophy, and one of the things that Stacy also teaches teachers too. So one of the things that I think that we share most often in whether, regardless of what we're talking about, so I think it goes to your philosophy also for generational trauma, trauma is like, um, our rule is space and grace and time.

Okay.

Um, so like not all communication has to happen right in that, like let people have space and grace. And I think in today's worlds, uh, I think there's a lot that can amp people up. And I just really hope that people would give us, um, the space, grace, and time, uh, as well. And so I kind of want people to give each other that.

Right on.

Cool.

Okay, Karen, Stacy, thank you so much for coming on Marriage Therapy Radio. I love you both. And, uh, I will look forward to seeing you at Ocean City sometime in the future if we can ever find our way.

Or like Philly or wherever.

Yeah.