Should You Even Be in Couples Therapy? Zach Answers on The Bomb Life w/Melissa Vogel

Hey everyone, welcome Zach Brittle to the show. Zach, I'm so excited to have you on here.

Thanks. Yeah, how you doing? You seem like you're, uh, you're living out of a suitcase right now.

Yeah, totally living out of the suitcase. That's the story of my life. And we're just like doing the best you can, adapting, shifting, um, making it all work. But the show must go on. So here we are, hotel room and all. Headphones, hotel room, everything. We have talked a lot about relationships on this podcast. We've had several conversations and it always fascinates me because every time we have a new guest and whether we're talking about sex, marriage, dating, divorce, how to make it work, um, how do you know when it's over? How do you please your partner? Anything. There are always emails and DMs that come in and people are like, It was that message. That one spoke to me and I'm like, that's crazy. 'Cause we've talked about this before. So we never know what's gonna come outta your mouth that's gonna hit someone. Yeah. Like just smack 'em in the head and they're gonna be like, light bulb, light bulb. So I, I'm always telling people like, you never know what episode's gonna be life-changing for you. Um, okay, so I gotta get all your titles right. So you've been counseling couples for almost 20 years. You're a licensed mental health counselor.

Yes.

A certified Gottman therapist and a relational life therapist. And you've been married for what was it? 28 years?

We have 29 this summer. And the line in my bio that's gotten me more business than any other line in my bio is that Rebecca and I have been happily married for 26 out of 29 years. So most of what I know about how relationships work, I've learned on the job. I've learned with, with and through my relationship with her. And then also my 2 daughters who are 19 and 23. They, I call them, they're adulting, um, or they're trying to anyway. And, uh, you know, I've got a lot of training and I've got a lot of tools and I've got a lot of experience, but most of what I have is practice.

Yeah, I, I can feel you on that. Like, I, I feel like on my, my journey of what I do with health and relationships and coaching and, and everything, I've learned to become the coach that I am because of my own experience.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And what I have been through. So I feel you on that. And I think that's what makes the best therapists. I think that's what makes the best coaches, those that have that life experience and they know what they're talking about.

Well, sure. I mean, I'm just a fellow traveler, right? Like I don't put on a costume and go to my therapy office. I, I, um, I wear, you know, literally I just wear like my regular clothes all the time. And that's, I mean, some people put on a business suit, some people put on a uniform and they transform into the thing that they do. And then they try and they clock out of that thing. And I, I do try to leave my work at work, but I'm never clocking out of the need to, you know, practice relationship skills in a meaningful way. So that's, that's the way I think about it.

Yeah. As I'm sitting here in my gym clothes. Recording my podcast.

Like, yeah, I'm going to the gym after this, so I'm, uh, I'm, I'm with you. I'm, I'm not quite as accomplished, I think, as you, or I don't really even know what I'm doing, but I, I do have—

You're going though.

You're doing it.

Yeah, you're doing it. I love it. Yeah. Okay, so I have to know, like, why is this what you do? Why, why do you counsel? Why do you help with relationships? I'm always curious at how people got on the started on their journey with what they're good at.

Um, I'm a really good teacher. I'm a really good friend. And I have this, uh, aptitude for connecting dots, um, that, that, I don't know, just kind of makes sense to me. And so I went to college, I went to undergrad to become a teacher. And I, and I, right outta college, I was a teacher right away. I went into one of these, um, Like I went into one of these environments where I was kind of the savior. I was gonna go be like the teacher who came in and rescued the entire system from being broken. And I, I, I knew a lot about how to like read and write. I was an English teacher, but I didn't, I did, I found out pretty quickly that I didn't know how to talk to people, um, or, or manage relationships. And so I went back to school to get a degree in counseling, which I thought I was gonna use to do, to go back into a classroom.

Hmm.

Turned out I had an aptitude for therapy. I was good at it. And I was asked by my program to stick around and do some graduate assistant work, which I did and I hated. I was doing work one-on-one with students. And, and then, and then one of my students brought his wife in. And as soon as he brought his wife in, I immediately was like, oh, I like this. Like, I, I can do this. This was interesting. And I wasn't sure exactly why, but something energetically woke up in me. 20 years later, I feel really, really grateful I'm in exactly the right job for me. I am good at what I do. And I also think that like, I probably would've been divorced a couple times over if I weren't in this space. Like I, I, I'm vulnerable to a lot of relational breakdowns because of my story and because of my just wiring that if I weren't attentive to it, I could easily have fallen prey to a lot of what I see my clients falling prey to.

So, Yeah.

You know, Part of why I stay in this job is because I feel like if I don't, I'm gonna, I don't know, maybe fall off the wagon is the right term. I'm not sure if that's exactly right, but I, I, I like what I do. I'm never bored. I feel like couples therapy is a different thing than, than individual therapy. I feel like they're just different disciplines and I don't really, I don't ever, I don't really like to say this, but I don't really trust people who are like, I do individuals and couples and adolescents and families and I do depression and I do eating disorders. Like, I think people need to do a thing.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I, this is the thing that I do. I do couples therapy and, um, I'm, I don't do individual therapy. I'm not very good at it. I, I don't, I barely can handle it as a client. I've been in the same, I've been in therapy for 7 years with my therapist who I love, but I can't do what she does. So I just, uh, you know, I just wake up every day and I, I try to put on, put on my clothes and go to work and then come home and, and stay in the practice basically.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that you admit that though, that you're like, this is my wheelhouse, this is my lane.

That is not my lane. There are things I can't do for sure, and I, and I always outsource them. Like, I don't— I can't do that, you know. And I think it, you know, to your, to your expertise, you know that there are all kinds of trainers. Like, there are trainers all over the place, and, and the person who might be a really great CrossFit trainer might be a terrible yoga teacher, and a terrible yoga teacher or a great yoga teacher might not have anything to know about how to do You know, whatever else.

Right.

This is not my language, but I, I think you can be good at, at caring about values and health, for example, and still be specialized in a, in a way that makes you excellent in a different area.

So. No, I tell people all the time, like, because you'll see people that teach classes and they might be really good at teaching classes and then they come out and they train on the floor and train one-on-one. And I'm like, just because you can teach a group full of people, it does not mean that you are good at personal training. And that doesn't mean that you know what you're doing. Or vice versa. Just cuz you're a trainer, it doesn't mean you can go into a group and you know how to watch 10 people form, technique, tempo. Yep.

You know, it, my gym has both.

That drives me crazy.

Classes and personal training. And you can definitely tell that there are trainers who are dialing in, like there's, there's folks that are really good on one side of the room and not so good on the other side of the room. And they, mm-hmm, I'm really grateful for the particular gym that I'm at because they're wise to that. They get it and they, yeah, people are playing to their strengths, which is really cool.

Mm-hmm. No, I love that you're admitting that and talking about that. And I hope people are listening and it wakes them up to like, ooh, this is what my therapist does. Maybe I should ask them a question about this. Or I felt something was off and I don't feel like, you know, my cup is getting full by what I need in therapy. Maybe this has something to do with it. Like, I just hope it brings awareness.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, to do to that. Do you think people should be in Couples therapy if they're married?

Um, I, I, you know, here's what I say all the time. I don't think therapy works. I think couples work or they don't. And sometimes therapy is the tool that they use to do that work. Sometimes it's a small group at their church. Sometimes it's a 12-step program. Sometimes it's a book that they found or a podcast that they listen to. Sometimes it's just their relationship with their neighbors. You know, I think therapy is a very specific kind of tool. Um, that is time-consuming and expensive, you know, so if you have the resources to do it, then it, you know, I mean, I was about to say it can't hurt. It can hurt. Um, you know, you want to be with a competent therapist.

Yeah.

The other thing about therapy, couples therapy, is that, you know, I say about my office all the time, it's different based on who's in the room. Sometimes my office is a courtroom. Sometimes it's a classroom. Sometimes it's a yoga studio. Sometimes it's a playground. Sometimes it's a You know, it's a, it just depends on what the couple needs. And I think the reason I'm good at my job is because I don't think about couples therapy in a, in a very narrow way. I think about it in an expansive way, and I'm really keen to understand what the client wants and then see if we can help them get it. And if they, if they can get it for free from a podcast, I'll say get it for free from a podcast. Don't, don't waste your time and money in here. But at the same time, if they come in people say, how long does it take? And I'm like, I don't know. I love using gym metaphors, so I'm going to beat it to death. But, you know, it's like walking into a gym and having somebody and saying to the trainer, how long until I can bench press my body weight? And you know that the answer is dependent on how close are you? How hard are you going to work outside the gym? What's your diet like?

Exactly.

Do you have congenital arthritis that's going to make that impossible? Like, we need to figure that out first before we can actually decide whether or not this is the right venue for support. But I think it's, I mean, the thing I say about my clients that I love and I respect is the only thing that my clients have in common is that they're asking for help. And that is, that's a valuable thing to do.

I think it's, I find it interesting that you hear the same things as like I hear of like, well, how, how long is this gonna take to, you know, to heal from, or like there was an affair or, you know, whatever they're dealing with. And it's true. It's like, how willing are you to put in the work?

Like, yeah.

And are you both going to do it? I have this question for you later, but I feel like it's important to bring up now just because we're on this.

Yeah.

I see this all the time and I work individual with people. Sometimes I work with the husband, sometimes I work with the wife, and they're on this journey, right? And my job with them is that person, their journey, their health, their wellness. And then I have to take the environment into consideration, right? Like, is someone still bringing home beer and pizza and are they supporting them. Like, I have to consider the environment and everything. And what I see happening all the time is this person is on their grind, they're going, they're changing, they're reading the books, they're doing the work, they're physically moving their body, which changes all the chemicals in their brain. They're feeling better, they're sleeping great, they have a great sex drive now, and their partner is not doing the same thing. And this person is like, hey, join me, or like, this is what I'm doing. And they're sharing, they want them to, but person is just like, it's not for me. Or they, what I keep hearing is they say they will, they, oh yeah. You know?

Yeah.

That's a great idea. Like maybe I will start or whatever. And it's starting to eat that person alive of like—

The first person.

Yes. The person doing the work, because the more they get into shape, the more they're bettering themselves. They're, they're watching their self-talk. They're watching their energy. They're aware of it, you know, and just, you know, alone, just the benefit of sleep and the chemicals and endorphins that you get is going to change a person. And they're becoming more and more aware of what the other person is not doing. What would you suggest or recommend to that person that's like, I love them, but I am so aware of their depression now and them saying that they will and then they don't. And they're like, that's not attractive. And like, But I don't want to halt my journey and shrink because they're not. And it's just this battle that I am seeing more and more show up. And I see it with men getting frustrated with the woman and I see it with the women and they're getting frustrated with the man in their life. I'm going to stop talking now.

I have, I mean, I have an answer that might be controversial. I'm not really sure.

Please give it to me. I love the controversial.

I think you leave them behind.

I know.

I know.

Oh, I know. Yeah.

I think you just, I think you say, okay, well, I'm going to keep, I'm going to continue to do the thing that's good and right for me. And I'm going to continue to live into my health and my wellness and my, and if you can come, I would love that. I would love for you to come. Please come. I want, I will make space for you. I will, you are welcome anytime to be here, but I'm not coming over there. I'm not doing your thing anymore. And that is hard for sometimes people to hear. And I think if you can do it in a loving and kind and invitational way, that's best.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, you can't, um, I think healthy relationships in general require 2 functional adults. You have to have 2 adults at the table and 2 people who are investing in their own health and wellness. And if one of them's doing it and the other one's not, you know, uh, one of my mentors, and it's the relational life therapy guy, his name is Terry Real, who, if you don't know his name, he, he'll talk about how like, If you show up at your best and your partner shows up at your best, that's a great day for you. It's a great day for them, and it's a great day for the relationship. If you show up at your worst and they show up at their worst, it's a bad day for you. It's a bad day for them. It's a bad day for the relationship. But if you show up with your best and they don't show up at their best, it's a good day for you. It's a bad day for them, and it's an okay day for the relationship. Mm-hmm. And sometimes, you know, okay is the best you're gonna get, which is unfortunate, but it is. You know, it is, it is the math. It is the reality. Right. You know, you have to kind of grapple with reality and if, and if okay is not enough for you, either you, you require or, you know, solicit the change that you need or you leave.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna be one of my clients. Okay.

Yeah, that's fine. I'll do it.

But Zach, I don't want to end my marriage though. I can, I can just hear like 10 people right now, but Zach, like, but I love them and I don't want to be divorced. And we have kids. I'm still getting mad or I have, you know, emotions or I'm still mad, but I'm afraid. What do I, what happens when I get to the point where I don't care anymore? Like, I don't want to be divorced and I love him and we've been together 15 years. Yeah.

I would say then lower your expectations.

I love you.

I mean, you can't have everything you want. I mean, that's just, this is just the reality of it. Like, what do you really want? If you want to stay married, that's easy. Just don't get divorced. You know? Like, um, but if you want to stay married in a way that, that helps you live your best life, then you need to figure out what living your best life is, and then you need to invite your partner to join you. And if they're not going to join you, then you have new decisions to make.

Decisions.

Which may include settling. It might include leaving. It might include, you know, it might include having an affair. It might include, you know, just committing to the gym. It might include joining a book club. It might include traveling by yourself. It might include, know, who knows, but like, this is the math and, you know, if you're getting, if there's enough in the relationship to make it work for you, then you have to just kind of accept that there are going to also be trade-offs. Yeah.

And that the physical part too is really hard because this person is, you know, they're, they're losing weight. They're physically looking good. I mean, I have these women that are like, developing this muscle that they haven't seen since they were 20, you know? And, and the big fupa's going and they're like, they just feel amazing and they can like bang out 10 pushups. And some of them are like getting to the level of pullups and they're just literally physically getting stronger than their husband. And then they're like, this is becoming a problem.

Well, and you know, I think this is, um, there's lots of cultural and like historical realities that are in play here. But the reality is that marriages and families are systems and systems orient around their patterns and they, those patterns become consistent, they become ingrained, they become predictable, they work.

Yeah.

And then somebody changes the pattern. Somebody goes, oh, I'm gonna change the system. And then the system freaks out a little bit. If you think about like a mobile that's floating over top of a baby's crib or something and all these pieces are moving. And if you grab one and you just hold it, you stop it. The other pieces freak out. They all gonna go berserk for a little while until they find their equilibrium.

Yeah.

And sometimes when a, when a woman or a man gets, decides I'm gonna change the system, I'm gonna change, I'm gonna get healthy, I'm gonna stop moving in this pattern. It does create some chaos and people need to adapt to that system. If, if the person stays true to their change, you know, if they stay true to not participating, if they, if they compromise or they back down, which is what a lot of times happens. You've had, you've seen many people start the process and then bail.

Yeah.

Because the system didn't accommodate and they went back to the old system, you know, but if you're really interested in changing the system, you got to stay on the path and then hope that the rest of your, the rest of the system conforms. And I think that that's not strictly hope, right? You can, you can encourage and solicit and hope, and I hope, uh, I don't want to use that word again, but you can, you can invite them to participate. But if they're not gonna accept it, you know, there's not too much you can do about it. 'Cause I mean, you can't force somebody to do pushups. No, nope.

I can look, I can relate to this 'cause I, um, I was married for 17 years. I, everyone on the show knows this, I bring it up and I could see the changes happening. I've been divorced now for, I don't know, 6 years, I think. And I was just growing and changing so much before that point. I started my own therapy. I was really diving into childhood issues that were showing up now and still creating problems. And, I had this growth expansion and that's when I really started to train hard and on purpose and lifting and just feeling better. I was done having babies and I'm like, I gotta get back to me. I gotta figure out who I am. And I, I disrupted the system and I would be like, let's, let's go to couples therapy. Let's start like a journal, which I want to know, you wrote like a marriage, what was it called? Uh, the Happy Marriage Therapy Journal. Yeah. I want to know about that. And I was like, let's start a journal and like, you know, share them and exchange and just things like that. And it was just like dragging.

Yeah.

this horse to the water and then I'm like, drink, just drink, damn it. And I'd got to a point where I realized like nothing is ever going to change. And I got to that point and it wasn't with like health and fitness. He was very in shape and stuff. It was like the mindset and other things. So I can relate to what you're saying. And I, I had to come to the realization that like I am going and I'm not stopping and I'm positive and I see things and will never, he will never get to the level I'm at or be willing to. And then I'm like, but it was the math. And I was like, but am I sure? Like, am I fucking this up? Like, am I making the biggest mistake of my life for me and my children? And now I can honestly say, looking back, like, that was the best choice of my life. He got married very quickly after. Um, I'm, I'm not remarried.

Yes.

And I see and I hear He is the same person and that's fine. That, that works for him. That works for their new marriage and stuff. But I was like, wow, I really have seen that I did make the right choice.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that happens. I mean, I think the other thing we need to be like really like transparent about is that, you know, we're talking perhaps about fitness and that's fine. That's good. People should be physically fit. It's not the, it's not the variable in a relationship, right? Like the partner may be on the other side of the equation going, All she ever does is go to the gym and she's neglected da da da and she's da da da da. And here I am trying to like have intellectual conversation. And here I am trying to be you know spiritually relevant or whatever it is. Like I don't want to sit here and say you know it's all about getting your shit together and moving. I mean people do have value different things for different reasons in different ways. Right. And that conversation needs to be available and stewarded by two functional adults. And if they come to the equation and go, yeah, it seems like we've, this particular version of our marriage has run its course. You know, Rebecca and I, we've done that 3 times and each time we've chosen to re-up, you know, kind of renegotiate terms and renew. We don't regret that, but we're different. You know, we've been married, we've been married. This is our 4th marriage that we're in right now. It just happens to be to each other. You know?

Interesting.

Yeah.

That's a really interesting way of like thinking about that. I, someone once told me like, they're like, you know what I think? I think everyone should have to renew their marriage certificate or license or whatever it's called every 5 years or 10 years.

And I was like, yeah, for me it's 3. Um, what if I give hyper-practical advice, particularly to people who are thinking about getting married?

Uh-huh.

Uh, like hyper-practical, literally this is the one thing I tell couples. I go, I think you should get a, find a marriage therapist or find a couples therapist. The same way you should have a financial advisor and a dentist and an auto mechanic. And you should commit to, you know, about 6 weeks of therapy every 3 years. And just as a way of staying the course, because people do change about every 3 years, about every 3 years, we kind of sit down and consciously— this is anthropology and psychology. It's not, I'm not making this up, but—

Right.

We do about every 3 years, we hit this like, huh, I wonder if this is what I'm still doing, you know? And if you think about it, people nod their head when I say this, you know, you meet somebody and about 3 years later you get married and about 3 years later you have a baby and about 3 years later you have another baby and about 18 years later your babies leave and, you know, like there is this sort of relatively predictable cycle that if you steward it well, you're going to stay ahead of the curve. If you don't steward it well, you're going to wake up one day and go, who is this person that I'm sleeping next to? You know, are we just roommates? How did that happen? You know, well, it happened because you didn't, you know, put your flag in the ground every once in a while and say, are we doing— are we still on track? We're still doing the thing, right? We still good? Do we want to shift? We want to make physical fitness a priority over the next 3 years? You know, what are we going to do now that our baby is no longer on suicide watch trying to throw themselves down staircases? Like, are we gonna, you know, actually live our life? We're going to hire a babysitter now. You know, like people, when they don't do that, then things pile up and they atrophy. And that's, you know, you don't, again, fitness, right? You don't use your muscles. They die.

Why do you think people don't talk about this?

Like, they don't know how.

Where was the person? And nothing against religion or anything, but I was Catholic, brought up very Catholic. So I was to get married in the Catholic church by a priest, by a man. That was never married or in a relationship with a woman. And guess who gave us our counseling?

Yeah, that guy.

And then we did have to go to like these classes and we met with like an older couple.

Pre-Kana, right? It was called Pre-Kana.

Yes. And it, I, I'll never forget the couple. And my husband at the time was such a dick to them and that should have been a red flag. Yeah. Yeah.

And.

I was just like, what is happening here? But no one guided me. The best thing that happened, I think, was my mom, God bless her. And she was— my parents' relationship was no example at all, but she got me this book and it was like the top 25 questions to ask your partner before you become a bride or something.

Okay.

And I, I only got through maybe the first chapter and then he wouldn't participate anymore. Again, red flag.

Hello. Yeah.

Uh, but I'm just like hearing you talk and I'm like, no one tells us this. No one tells us about the, the 3 years. And no one certainly said, get a therapist, like get into that, like do the work, you know, like stay on course. Why, Zach? Like, that's so unfair.

I just think it, I mean, because patriarchy is real and because, you know, the The Catholic Church and every other system in the world is based on power and strength and winning and losing. And, you know, it's not based on being relationally relevant, you know, or relationally connected. And, you know, when we are invited into relationships, we accept a general, like, kind of pattern of rules that seem to make sense because they've made sense for hundreds of years or thousands of years. And we don't— nobody's challenging those. And I think that did— that changed. That started to change in the '70s when women's liberation happened and they started to kind of go, hey, I think I want more out of—

Yeah.

life, you know, and, but they were in relationship with men who were raised by these other guys who had never had a conversation, you know what I mean? So it's changing. I think it's changing, um, particularly because women are not interested in settling anymore for the, for the system. You know, I've got 2 daughters who are offended by me because I raised them to be emotionally intelligent and none of their 19 to 23-year-old men in their lives have any capacity for actual conversation.

I know.

And so they're mad at me. But I'm like, trust me, you're, you know, you're better off.

Yes.

You know, because you're not going to end up in this situation where they just settle for the red flags early on. I mean, my kids would both reject the stories that you just told me. They'd be like, nope. You know, so it's changing. I think there's hope, you know, but, um, but, you know, we've been, we've been, uh, we've been under the weight of these sort of systems forever. And I'm having to repent. Like, I'm repenting of that. Like, I have to acknowledge that I've participated in that for the longest time. It's probably why my marriage fell apart or nearly fell apart a few times, you know? So, um, so I don't know. I think, I think we just don't have any practice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I gotta say, like, I love that your marriage has fallen apart because—

Thanks.

You are the one that, that I would go to and be like, he knows, like he's been there. He understands what it's like and has gotten himself out. But I, I put out this video.

Yeah. My wife's more impressive. Like she's actually more, uh, like the fact that she's married to a relationship expert that she also has seen flail relationally. Um, you know, she's, she's very keen to appreciate the, what kind of the work that is involved. You know what I mean? Like I, yeah, I, I'm, I'm very fortunate in that way. Yeah.

I get it. I, to kind of go back just for a second of like your daughters and, you know, how, where they are and emotionally and emotional intelligence, how important that is. That is one thing, like when my life imploded, my girls had to watch me fall apart and then rebuild and, and learn. And then, you know, I've dated a couple of men since then and they have watched me fall apart from that and learn like that is acceptable. That is not acceptable.

Yeah.

This is not okay and grow and heal from that. But I do know now that they will never accept the shit that I have accepted and had to learn from. I put up a reel, um, the other day and I'm in a bathing suit just standing there cooking like in my bathing suit.

Yeah, I saw it. No, I saw it. If you make your own money and you can do your own thing, the only thing you need from a man is how the way he treats you. Yeah.

I'm so impressed right now that you saw that.

Yeah, it's true though.

Everyone, it always— did you read any of the comments? Did you get in there and read some of the comments?

Oh, I don't have time for that. I mean, like, I literally do not have time for social media. I don't even do my own. But I was like trying to figure out like who you were and who I was talking to. Yeah.

Who is this chick? I was into it. I put up in a bathing suit because one, it will grab more attention. It's just the way social media works and stuff. And I'm like, I want this message to be heard. And 2, it triggered so many people, not women, but just men. And they took it as like, we don't need men. Um, you're on a social media platform that was designed by men and you're paid by men. And I'm like, no one said we don't need men. I actually love men. I'm not a man hater at all. I'm not like, you know, jaded, even though I could have, could be. I love men. I, I want to date men.

The guy you want to date is the guy who goes, that's, you know what? You're exactly right.

Yeah.

That's a good guy. Yeah. Thanks for raising the bar for me. Like, that's the guy you want to date.

Exactly. And they were just so triggered by that. And I'm like, you're missing the point is that like, if we are emotionally aware and we make our own money and we can do all that, like, I don't need you, honey. Now it's just based on how you treat me, which means how you communicate with me. If you're there for me, can you hold space for me? Whoo, does that piss people off?

We're like, we're so good at missing the point. Like it's, uh, but it's because we've been trained to believe that power and strength are the thing, that that's the thing that, and you know, it's hard to argue with that right now because we, we live in a world right now that is, uh, has chosen to elevate power and strength over integrity and dignity and truth and respect. Like we just, so it's hard to look around and make the argument, but You know it in your body. You do.

Yeah. Your body will always, always tell you. Yeah. Okay. Can I ask you about the Gottman theory and what that exactly is? Because I know there's a lot of people that are like, I've heard of that, but I have no clue what that is. What makes it different?

Well, I, you know, what I always say about the Gottman method is that it's—

method. That was the right—

yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, um, it's basically Relationship 101. So John Gottman. Is, he's kind of the world's most famous and respected couples researcher. He was not a guy with an opinion. He didn't seek out to like write a book on his theory. He wanted to figure out like what made relationships work and what made them break down. So he did all this research. He did longitudinal research of about 40 years worth where he tracked couples over time. And he was able to observe like, what did the couples who stay together have in common? And what did the couples who were breaking up have in common? And basically kind of revealed that the couples who were divorcing and who were miserable, they did these things and couples who stayed together, they did these other things. And I think you ought to take that in college. I think it ought to be like a psychology kind of required psychology course because it speaks to the value of emotional intelligence. It speaks to the value of personal responsibility. He wrote a book called 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work, which is a fine book. It's not a very good read. Like he's not an author, he's a scientist.

Yeah.

Um, but he, but the, the content's valuable. I think you ought to have it as a resource, but it basically says, you know, couples that stay together, there are 7 principles. They're in 3 buckets. Um, just to make it really simple. The first one is the quality of the friendship. Like how, how strong is your day-to-day fundamental regard and respect for one another? And you can learn to build that up. You could, that, that's a thing that you can build. And I think if you're checking in every 3 years, how's our friendship? How are we doing? How are we doing in this space? You know, that's the value of that kind of tracking, because early on it's really easy to be friends. You're interesting and you're new and we have all this energy to stay up late and sex is amazing and blah, blah, blah. Like, like early, it's— it comes really easy. Um, but, you know, you get into the grind of having jobs and kids and mortgages and your friendship can atrophy, you know. So the first one is really about the quality of friendship. The second bucket is around how you manage difference or how you manage conflict. Um, and there are some principles, specific principles about that, that, um, help reframe kind of your relationship to conflict. Um, one of the biggest pieces of the research is this idea that about 2/3 of any issues that a couple has are perpetual. They're never going to go away. Like it's, it's, you're an introvert, you're an extrovert, you're messy, you're neat, you're a spender, you're a saver. That's never going to change. And people, um, People get into a lot of trouble because they try to solve unsolvable problems. And so there's just a different approach, um, which is to create empathy and compassion and temporary compromise, which you need to be an adult to learn how to do, right? Like that's a, that's the, that's why I go back to it takes 2 functional adults.

Yeah.

And then the 3rd bucket is really around, do we have a sense of alignment around mission, vision, and values? Are we, do we, are we, do we want, are we targeted at the same thing? Do we, are we chasing goals and dreams together? So, you know, the, the, the idea of how does a relationship work at its base level is, do we have a strong friendship? Can we manage conflict? And are we aligned to the same thing? You know, and those are all skills that you can build. Um, I'm also certified in what's called Relational Life Therapy. I've already mentioned that and Terry Real's name. I think Relational Life Therapy is more like 501. If Gottman is Relationship 101, RLT is more like Relationship 501. Okay. And, and what Terry likes to say is that, you know, other methodologies will give you tools and then we want to work with the part of you that doesn't use tools. So, you know, there's a thing that the Gottman Method said, which is do this, do this stuff.

Okay.

And then there's a reality, which is sometimes you can't do that stuff because you've got childhood trauma or you've got, you've got a trust breach or you've got, um, you've got ADHD or you've got untreated alcoholism or like there's a, there's lots of reasons why you can't do the thing. And, um, so it's not good enough to say, go do the thing. Um, if you do the thing, you'll be fine. You have to also address the part of the person that doesn't know how to do the thing. Their parents never taught them how to do the thing. They don't have any models for the thing. They don't have any, they're not medicated properly for their ADHD. They're, they haven't done the work of grappling with their relationship with alcohol, you know, like, mm-hmm. So it's a little bit of a, like a, graduate-level approach to couples work. But, um, but I think everybody should be exposed to and familiar with basic principles of being in a, you know, sound relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. And that can be started early on. Like, I feel like, again, like it should be taught in college. It really should, you know, if not in high school and opening people up to this.

Or it should be taught to your children. You know, like you should, me and Rebecca, because of what we've weathered and what we've had to learn, we have been pushing down this idea of, you know, exactly, exactly what you said in your bathing suit. Like it, what matters is how you are treated by this guy, you know, and these people, even in your, even in your platonic friendships, same-sex platonic friendships, like what matters is whether or not you have the ability to navigate, you know, difference in a responsible and respectful way. And that's always easier if your friendship's stronger, you know?

Right.

And then don't join your life with somebody who doesn't share your values, you know, which is why about every 3 years you gotta be checking in and saying, hey, are we still interested in adventure or wealth building or health or, you know, whatever? Like if we're not, then we gotta pay attention to that and course correct.

Right. Yeah. And, and kind of like, because what if you get to that point, that 3-year check-in and you're like, no, I, we don't like, and, and he's going, no, I don't agree with what you're saying and this is not my value.

Well, then you're not, then you haven't been married for 3 35 years or 25 years or 15 years and trying to figure out whether or not there's too much sunk cost in this equation.

Yeah.

You know, like people don't get divorced cuz they're like, oh, now we're just gonna wait till our kids leave. I'm like, okay, well have fun, you know?

Right.

Or, you know, be checking in regularly enough, consistently enough to know whether or not this thing is veering off course. Yeah.

God, I wish someone would've told me. I, I'm always curious like how my story would've played out if someone was like, make sure you're checking in and do this. Yeah. But all we can do now is just stop the cycle.

Well, and live your best life. I mean, this is the life you have. It could have played out in a different way, but who knows? Who cares? Like, this is life.

Exactly. Exactly. Who cares?

I think people always ask me all the time, like, what would you do differently? I'm like, I'm not sure I would do anything differently. Number one is because I'm really, I'm really happy with where I'm at right now in my family life. And number two, even if I had a time machine, I could go back and say, Zach, you should do this differently. I'm not sure I would have listened, you know? If somebody just dropped into your time, dropped into your life as you're about to get married and said, "Hey, listen, the Catholic Church doesn't doesn't really. It's not probably the right thing for you. You should probably not do that." You wouldn't have listened. You would have been like, "Well, but my family. Well, but the da da da. Well, but the so and so." So you know, it takes what it takes. Yeah. You know, time takes time. And so again, all we can do right now is just do the best we can with what we have available right now for me. As much as I love working with my clients, it means making sure that my relationship with Rebecca and my kids is solid enough that I can hold my head up and, you know, move through my days.

Right. I know you have experience with alcohol and you're sober now. And it is, it is constantly like, if I could say like, what's someone asked me like, what's a, what's one of the number one problems that you see that impact people's health and fitness journey, but then also Relationships and other things going on, one of the top 3 would be alcohol.

Yeah. Well, and I didn't get sober till I was ready. Um, that's just the reality of that disease for me. But I can, I, looking back, I can tell you that anytime I went on like a personal, like wellness retreat or I did something like a, like, I don't know, like a 3-day centering something, whatever it might've been. And they were like, what's the, what's something that's in the way of you being your best self? I, I can't tell you how many times I wrote down alcohol. Uh, if I, if I would just quit drinking, I would be fine. I, I, I mean, for years, decades probably, I was like, if this was outta my life, I would be fine. But I didn't listen to myself. I mean, I didn't listen to myself.

Why?

I wasn't ready. Why do you think? I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready to hear it. Like I, or I, I was too, I was too sure that it would cost too much to, to quit drinking. Like I was, I was like, no, it would cost too much. You know? And I mean, I was, I don't regret how long it took me. It took me what it took, you know, but I'm so grateful right now. I live in a ton of gratitude for not having alcohol in my life. Like, people congratulate me on being— I think I'm 5 and a half years, and they're like, congratulations. That doesn't mean anything to me. I have no, I have no pride about it. I have only gratitude. And, uh, so when people ask me about it, I just, you know, and they say, how did you do it? I go, I don't know. I mean, I do know, I could tell you, but, um, But what I know is that I, that I'm so glad that I'm not waking up hungover, that I'm not embarrassed. I'm not worried about what I'm gonna say when I go out at night. I'm not, my kids aren't, you know, constantly fretting about whether or not they can trust me to drive or talk, you know? So, yeah, like I just live in a different skin and I love it, you know? And to be honest, you know, one of our 3 periods was when I was sober and Rebecca was not yet. And I said, hey, listen, I'm— this is me now. This is the path I'm on. You can come if you want, but I'm not coming back over there. And you, you know, if you don't come, I'm going to leave you behind. Um, I'm not going to leave you. I'll stay married to you, but it'll— it's going to suck and you're going to— it's, you know.

Yeah.

But, um, and she figured it out, you know, not— I don't want to say she figured it out. She was ready when she was ready. She, she got on the wagon and that's where we live now.

So it's, it, do you think it's possible for someone, you know, based off your experience with alcohol to have had a problem, it was a major problem and then they got sober and now every now and then they fall off the wagon and like they have a drink here and then a couple months pass and then they drink, you know, here. Like, is it possible to keep it in your life a little bit?

I don't, I don't think it's possible for me. I think it might be for some people. Um, but I don't know. Um, my wife, I, I haven't relapsed one time since I, since I put my last drink down. Rebecca's probably relapsed maybe half a dozen times, 6 or 7. Um, always for one night, always, uh, you know, so she doesn't fall off and then like go binge-y crazy for months at a time or disappear at Las Vegas or something. But I can tell you that she, every single time she's like, nope.

Nope.

Can't do it. Nope. Not for me. So not for me, not for her, but maybe somebody, maybe somebody can. And, you know, alcoholism, alcohol dependency, alcohol abuse, they're all different and they all manifest differently for different people. And, you know, who knows, who knows what your diagnosis is? I don't think it really matters, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Um, for me, it was, it was preventing me from living my best life and I don't have any interest in Entered sometimes. Sometimes I'm like, hmm, a cocktail would sound really nice right now, but I don't have any confidence that I could, I wouldn't just open my own floodgates because I have enough kind of OCD that I would be like, I don't know. I just, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be a good, good idea for me.

Yep. Zach, it's been amazing having you on. Can, if there was one thing that you could leave our listeners knowing, kind of like the demographic and struggles that we've talked about on here, is there anything that comes to mind that you would like to leave 'em with?

I mean, I, I have a kind of a hip pocket answer to this question, um, 'cause people will ask me like, what's the secret? And I, yeah, I've basically boiled it down to 2 things. And then one I've said a couple times already, which is you gotta be a grownup. You gotta be a, you gotta be a functional adult. You gotta be emotionally intelligent and aware and attentive to your own shit so that you can show up in the relationship. That, that's important. And then from that position, the secret of a healthy relationship is pretty simple. You do more things that your partner likes and fewer things that they don't like. That's it. That's the whole thing. As an adult, you do more things that they like and fewer things that they don't like, and then you have a chance. Uh, the rest of it is just, you know, whatever. You gotta grapple with stress and you gotta grapple with strain. But I think the number one thing is to be a grownup. And the number two thing is to learn enough about what your partner likes and doesn't like that you can show up for them in the ways that are important.

Yeah. And imagine if they're doing that for you and you're doing that for them.

You're both doing it. You're, you're cooking with gas. It's amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Ugh, Zach, this has been great. Where can people follow you, find you? Give us it all and we'll put it in the show notes too.

Yeah, no, uh, the internet's easy. My name is Zach Brittle, so you can find me there. Um, I've got a weekly podcast that comes out every week. It's called Marriage Therapy Radio. Um, love that. The format of that show is that I interview couples. So if you're just like, how do other couples do it? That's what I'm learning about every time. Like I just learn something new every week. Um, and I'm on Substack. Substack is, uh, it's called stuffiwrite.com and, uh, that's the place that I do most of my thinking. Uh, out loud.

Awesome.

Yeah. Awesome.

Okay, everyone check out the show notes. Zach, this has been great. I hope we can have you on again and keep this conversation going.

Anytime.

I think this was fantastic. Everyone check out the show notes, read the books, grab 'em. We'll put the links to everything down there. Thank you again for coming on.

Right on.

Everyone stay safe, stay healthy until next time. The Bottom Line Podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content shared here is not intended as medical, legal, or professional advice. Always consult with a qualified professional before making any health, fitness, financial, or legal decisions. The opinions shared on this podcast are personal experiences and insights. So if you need expert guidance, go find the right professional for you. Thanks for listening.