The Other Side of Divorce with Susie and Paul Pettit

So it's 4:00 here. What time is it there?

It is. We're coming at you from the future. It's 11 on Friday. 11 a.m..

I have Thursday afternoon. You have 11 a.m.. And that's exciting. You said you both used to use live. Used to live on the East Coast of the United States. Where was that?

Outside of D.C.. Arlington, Virginia.

Right on. Okay. Is that where you both used to live, or were you from somewhere else?

This is part of our story. If you want us to get into it.

No. I was born in Australia. I went to the US.

Okay. Right on.

To live with my wife and our boys over there for a eight years. Yeah, before we came back. So we're a blended family. We're the Brady Bunch.

I always I loved asking this. I grew up in Roanoke, Virginia. Okay. And I went to William and Mary. So I am actually from Virginia. Arlington is Northern Virginia. It's not actual Virginia. It's just like it's Northern Virginia. And then, but I met I lived in Philadelphia for a couple of years, and then I lived in Connecticut for a couple of years. So I did the whole kind of not the whole East Coast, but I kind of went up there. And then we came out to Seattle in 1999. But I love talking to people who are from or who know that part of the country just because. Oh, yeah, they're on a lot of them out here so.

Well, and it's like in our. So where were you born? In Roanoke area.

Roanoke.

Okay. So I was born in Boston and then. Okay. Actually, I was born in Chicago, but then moved to Boston when I and then traveled down the East Coast, went to school in Pennsylvania and Bucknell. So William and Mary Bucknell, you know, so and then. Yeah, my first marriage was his we ended up in Washington, D.C. area. Arlington's. And I have a son that's living in Charlottesville and. Virginia right now. So yeah, it's fun. It is a it is. Yeah, it is a neck of the woods that if you haven't lived there, you might not really understand what it's like.

Yeah, yeah.

And we used a vacation in Williamsburg. Williamsburg all the time. That was where my first husband's. Oh my gosh. We would go there, so we'd walk around Colonial Williamsburg. So I'm well familiar with William and Mary. And Williamsburg.

Is my favorite place. It is my favorite place in the country to to go and just spend time like, if I can find if I can create a reason to go to Williamsburg, I will, because it is just such a special place. And I finally went. It is, it is. And it's it's odd. It's not, you know, it's not like I like to go to the beach or I like to go to the, you know, or the big city. I like to go to this old colonial little like Disneyland Town. And I went with my daughter this summer and we went all in like we did all the stuff. We went to the exhibits and we interviewed the, you know, colonial people and we, you know, it was it was the best. I really loved it. So, Yeah, but but now you're in Australia. What? Yeah. To go ahead, tell me your audience story. How did you get there? What is your what's what's that about?

Your turn.

Okay, well, we both had first we had we were married and we both were going through a divorce. And I guess I can tell my side of it, and that I, I went through the divorce. It was very tumultuous, as it was not one of those like, you know, uncoupling. So it was all peaceful. It was really quite a tornado. And in coming out of that, did a lot of inner work on myself and trying to reflect. And so at some point I forget what age I was turning. But my birthday is on October, and I decided that I was going to start meditating every day, that I thought that would be good for me. And so I started a meditation practice using an app called Insight Timer.

And, you know, I'm just doing it daily and they have like a street type thing. And several months later I noticed that someone had left a review. I left a review on a sleeping meditation, and then someone had commented on my review saying, Hey Susie, if you like this sleeping meditation, you'll like this one too. Signed Paul from Wollongong. Okay, so I'm as we were just talking about, I'm from the Washington, D.C. area, highly security conscious, and I'm just like, okay, dude, from a made up town, like, what are you even talking about? Paul I'll look at that. But somehow we started going back and forth commenting on this woman's like basically in the comments of her meditation.

I mean, I think we did wonders for her, you know, her algorithm, because it's basically like we were on, you know, Amazon, like on a on a review of a book. And we're just and so we just started talking and that is now Paul sitting next to me, my husband. So we he wrote a book called 9756 Miles to happiness, because we literally found out we were on the exact opposite sides of the world, like, like, you know, me in the northern hemisphere here on the him and the southern, it was the exact if you measure the globe, we were on the other side of the world.

It's like when you're. When I was a kid, I thought I could dig a hole to China. So, like, if you dug a hole from your house, you could actually end up in your front yard. Yeah, yeah. Your whole, like, initial conversation, your whole get to know you is available for people to review online if they want to. If they go on this app and they can see, hey, this is how this is where it all started.

So ten years ago, whenever it was. Yeah.

Bethany sleep. It was like an 18 minute sleep meditation. Yeah. I'm inside timer.

I think we actually blew up the app. I love that.

Can I before we get into the the marriage story, can I? What is what is getting divorced to like? I mean I mean, you said it wasn't that great. And you know, I spent plenty of time with people who are there thinking about it. They're afraid of it. They don't know if like, if it's the end of their life. They got things like, but what did what did you learn? I don't know, man. What's that like? Do you have any any comfort perhaps to offer people who are thinking about that? The thing they signed up for at the beginning isn't the thing that they ended up getting, like, how do we crafted your message about that?

Yeah. For me, it's it's understanding exactly the modus operandi of the mind. The no one is what it likes. The brain likes to know what's happening. The unknown is what it doesn't like. So even if you're uncomfortable, even if you're in a relationship that's not working, the brain will continually give you reasons to Spain. It because it's known and you're alive. So keep staying there.

Oh, man.

So it takes quite a bit of self effort. Yeah. And and courage to be able to say okay, this isn't working. It's not working for me. It's not working for my children. It's obviously not working for my partner. If we continue to do the same thing, what's the result? And therefore the brain's sort of alarm bells are going off. But hang on where you're heading online. So moving toward the discomfort rather than away from the discomfort is what's necessary.

And scary. And that which is what feels so bad for divorce. And that I think the comfort that I can offer listeners after the fact is that both of us and our five children are living a much fuller, more wonderful life. Yet if you had, you know, rewound 12 years, we all would have thought like, oh no, no, no, don't do this. It's going to blow it up like it's very scary. It is all the same. Like something different feels scary. And so it's like, no, we're used to this. We're used to this emotional absence. We're used to mom and dad, you know, acting like children were used to, you know, all, all of the coldness. And then I, both of us also were the ones who made the decision to end those marriages.

And so when Paul just said, you know, it's not working for us, sometimes we're the only people that can see that. And that is an extra burden that to, you know, the wife or the husband. I mean, my husband in my case said like he'd stay married to me for the rest of his life, even though he hated me. And I remember thinking like, well, that's not exactly the vision I have of what I want to model.

No thank you.

And in terms of marriage, and yet the reality is, you know, I'm a life coach and I coach women every day. The reality is, is that often we can talk ourselves into the what feels comfortable to our brain in that moment and just sort of settle and get into a sort of stable misery. Like, this is good enough, this is fine. And years pass and both Paul and I now, yeah, when we look back, we're like, were we just like, asleep or, you know, ten or I mean, we both those marriages were 20 years long, you know, it's like, what were we doing? How were we soothing ourselves? And you just humans are really resilient. We got through it. And yet doing that courageous act, as he said and getting being like, okay, let me try to have the conversation.

Let me try to do something different. Let me try to visualize something different for me and my family than what we have is absolutely courageous and equally terrifying to the brain. The brain is like, oh no, no, no, no, you're fine. You know what it's like to go to bed crying or you know what it's like to yell and feel disconnected. Let's just keep doing that.

Just ultimately, that's for me. It was the recognition that I am the creator of the result, whether it's whether it's in a.

Say more about that.

Whether it's a dysfunctional marriage or a beautiful, blossoming, functional marriage. I'm the creator of this. Not not the creator of Suzy, not the creator of the circumstance, but the creator of my result or reality within that moment. So when I was able to reflect on the marriage and the dysfunction of the marriage, it wasn't about me versus the opposition to the other person. It was about me. I'm creating this. Why am I creating it? Am I continually creating this? And that's when we get into unpacking. You know, as soon as you said it's a survival mode, did you flight freeze or fix?

Did you feel like you were there taking the responsibility when you were in the figuring out at the end?

No, no, it's it's a complete heist. It's the same. It's to me anyway, it's no different to being in this relationship now, which is wonderful. It's a wonderful relationship. But ultimately, if I pause and I contemplate, why is it wonderful? It's because I am creating that through my own relative perception of what this is. It's not about controlling you or being a victim to you. It's about sharing a journey that says Susie creates every moment as it is through Susie's mind. Paul creates every moment as it is through Paul's mind and and the polarities of what we share is what makes the total sum.

Yeah, and I do find that often when I'm working with people in the relationship still like they're not at that elevated plate where they're like, where's my. They almost have to make the other person the problem so that they get up enough courage to make the change, to then come out on the other side and see, like me and being like, oh, maybe my ex wasn't the devil incarnate that I made him out to be. Maybe I had some responsibility, you know, to use Paul's words. But often in the moment, to your question of, you know, the person out there that's like, do I stay? Is this okay that they it's okay. They don't need to look yet at their responsibility. I find a lot of a lot of people might look at their responsibility in that moment and stay stuck in it even longer, like, oh, it's my fault.

Or maybe if I just do this differently or I do not recognizing like, actually we have these two humans here, these two models like that are different people. And is this the person? If I was going to decide again today, is this the person I would choose again? Like, is this, you know, not getting and getting out of that that shame blame cycle, but more of the like just sort of clearing the haze of who's right, who's wrong. And it's like, oh, actually, now that I look at 20, 26, me oh, this isn't, you know, the the person for me or the relationship for me or how it's showing up isn't what's best for me. That's scary.

For me. For me, it's just a path. It's just a part of developing wisdom to be able to stop and say, am I entering the victim mode? You know, why is this happening to me? Or am I entering a soldier mode, trying to control everything on every front? If I can just make her happy, if I can just appease him? Yeah, well, neither of those work, but we have to go through that cycle in order to discover that neither of those work.

Yeah, I imagine there's something to kind of empowering about that, where you whether you're whether you're in distress or whether you're doing well, to know that that comes from choices that you have made in ways that you've chosen to show up. I you know, I tell people sometimes that, like when speaking of meditation, when you can meditate and pause and create the space to choose, choosing, you know, options create agency, and agency creates power. And I guess if you feel like you're empowered to stay or go, then you maybe you maybe you just have a more peace if it is in spite of the brain not knowing quite what to do.

Yeah, not feeling so victime. It's like, no, no, this is your choice. Like you can.

Yeah.

I'm sure you see that a lot with your relationship coach. Like our old patterns.

How old were you when you got divorced?

I think it was 54 or 55.

I was probably 42. 43.

We didn't make it feel like.

It's interesting to think about, like, when's too late? You know, like, how much sunk cost is, too much sunk cost or how much?

Oh, it's never too late. It is.

That's. No. When is it? When is it used by date on yogurt. Too late.

Yeah. I think it's very interesting that both of us are like, it's not too late. Like, when is it too late to say, like you deserve a life of love and feeling lit up and connected emotionally? And how like it's not too late. That's just us not allowing ourselves to be who? Like, when is it too late? Never.

When is it to like to model for your children that the dysfunction stops here? Yeah. Is that too late?

Well, it's interesting too, because neither one of you is answering through a lens of practicality. Like, oh, there's the dating pool is too small when you're in your 60s or, oh, the financial considerations are too severe when you're in your 50s or you're not answering on a practical level, you're answering on an emotional level.

Because both of us. So that gets to our background. We're both mindfulness. Cognitive cognitive coaches. So those are all thoughts. So if I think that the dating pool is slim, what I look for is a slim dating pool. And I make it that the. But if I think and I coach people all the time, if you think it is, it is. And if you think it is and it isn't. And so let's look at me like I'm in Arlington, Virginia. If I was thinking like and I had I had been on the dating apps, Paul had not. But if I suddenly was like, okay, that's a small, you know, then I get closed off. Well, look at where like, boom, this spouse lands from some random meditation app from a, you know, around the world, like, yeah.

So these thoughts that were having or that was a thought that my first husband had that financially this doesn't make sense. And and it was like, okay, maybe like in our limited way of thinking. So again, getting back to the mindfulness or the way we're thinking about it, if we're thinking about it that way, is that moving us towards light and openness and love and who we want to be at our highest, or is it moving away from that and keeping us stuck in that protective pattern? So again, that's our brain trying to keep us safe, like, oh, but consider the finances. Oh, but consider old age. Oh, but who's going to take care of you when you're older? All of those are really some, some limited thinking that, you know, we definitely would point out to.

I like to say that most people don't suppose as they are, they see things as they are.

Yeah. So okay, so you're here. You are. You're together. You are or not. You're not together yet. You're just both interested in meditation. You're doing your thing. You're you're flooding this lady's app with algorithmic blessings. And then what happens next? How do you decide to what's the how do you get through the tunnel from from your house to your house?

Yeah, I let go.

Yeah. He said, you want to come over to Australia. And I was like, what? And I, I have talk about finances. I really.

Have you moved off the app by now?

Yes.

Have you gone to you know.

We did.

And I was like, are you over 20? And like we moved to WhatsApp.

Actually, that's an important point because we were talking on a personal level. We were talking on a level that was beyond what you look like. You know, what your status it was more of. It was more of a, an interest in it.

Like we literally had the mindset like he's on the other side of the world. My mindset was like, okay, like all the all the normal protective things I might have put up as a woman, you know, going to meet someone, there was none of that. I'm like, what do you have to lose? Like, just be you, be silly, be whatever is in there and you know, and then we we it's like the TV show Love is Blind. Like we, we literally didn't see each other for maybe two months. I remember when he first sent me his video, he was like, okay, well, it's been nice knowing you.

Yeah. No no, no. See you later.

Like, it was just that, like, okay. You know, and it is a, So we fell in love before even seeing each other because we had we had that we didn't have all our protective shields up. It was just much more connecting on a, you know, vulnerable, intimate level.

It was the essence of who you were.

And so then when we did, you know, he's like, why don't you come over and visit? I was like, okay. I had no, I never thought to visit Australia. That's interesting. Like, why not? You know. And my friends had many reasons why not. They're like, he's going to cut you into tiny pieces and mail you home. And I was like, I really don't think so. You they out?

She's his best friend.

Said to take you into the outback and.

You take me out, right? Exactly.

Best friend at the time said, well, where does he live? And and she said, well, I've got his post office box.

I know, like, I was my kid. You're like, come on. But sometimes, like looking back hindsight's 2020. I'm like, see, it was safe. But it's just continuing to take that next step when you're dating. But for for us to answer your question, you know, we just it really was like one step after another. And I think since it was built on that foundation of trust and vulnerability, then it moved forward very quickly. So, you know, we had a couple years where we're going back and forth visiting. And then as Paul mentioned earlier, we both have kids from our other marriages. And so when his two young boys aged out when they got 18, he was like, okay, well and mine were still in the house. He was like, well, why don't I come to America and help you finish raising him? And they're like, okay, let's try it. And so he did and.

Not mine had launched. They launch earlier here in Australia.

Oh 18.

Same thing.

Yeah. So for me, it wasn't a matter of concern about whether or not it works out. It was just what's the next best step? There was nothing. There was nothing to lose and there was nothing to win. It was just this, an experience. So there was no attachment to an outcome, I guess, for me.

Okay, so now you're in DC, you're raising your Susie's two kids. Is that what you said? Three and two.

Yeah, we.

Have three, I have three, he has two.

Okay, so you're raising your three, and at some point you get to Australia. So do they. Do they, you successfully launch them. And then how what's the rest of the story.

Yeah. Three. And they my we got married in that period of time and Covid happened in that period of time and so so and when my youngest graduated from high school and went off to his university, you know, I have nothing tying me to the area I'm in because of my divorce and biological family. We had some I had some estrangement there. And I just was like, okay, why not? You know, really living in that, like eating with happiness and joy and like, what makes sense. And so I, you know, we were like, well, where should we live? And like, why not head to Australia? Paul had some wonderful family here and family ties and, and we could move in here.

And so my oldest and youngest are still in the States. And my middle son, the reason why I mentioned Covid is because he was in the middle of his college search during Covid, and we had brought all the boys over here. I had brought the boys two different times, and at one point we drove by, ironically, Wollongong University, this place that I didn't even think existed and we just point. Paul just pointed. He's like, there's the University of Wollongong University or whatever. And then when we're in Covid and I'm asking my middle son where he wants to go to school and we're, you know, and he's like, well and gum. And I was like, what? Like you, you know, like even if you bet on campus, like, do you even know what they offer? And he was like, no, I think so. That's so he actually got to Australia before we did. Yeah. Because that was my middle son.

Yeah. Yeah. He arrived.

Before he arrived here.

Restrictions.

Yeah. So he's still he's now graduated and he's we're getting together for lunch with him on Sunday.

What was that about for him. Like what. What's unique about him that he like what what is what part of his personality was that that said, I want to go to this place. I've only driven by one time.

Oh, I think you know, you you are. You're in this field with me. He's my middle son. He has, you know, I will not speak for him, but he has his own unique relationship with his birth father, my ex.

Biological.

Husband and and that side of the family. And he was just spreading his wings. And he has not looked back. He has stepped into his amazing manhood. You know, I guess one of the things that might be helpful to talk to the listener out there that might be considering divorce, something that comes up often is like, but what about the kids? And I had to think at the moment, like, first, like, is this a marriage? I want to have modeled for my kids with a question that hit me hard. And second, like, what about the kids? We're putting forth this facade of this like happy, healthy family. But the kids know that's not accurate. That's not right. And so what about the kids is afterwards all five of the boys are.

It's not even on the same scale. There are so much better like I mean, we know like I know from my background in therapy and coaching, that psychological depth adds to the the ability of feeling life satisfaction and purpose and our kids. I can't imagine what would have happened to this middle son if I had stayed in the marriage. It actually gives me goosebumps and I right now feel like crying, but like like looking back and seeing our boys and where they have just spread their wings and taken off to it was amazing. So I did have the thought often that that sustained me in the difficult times, that this is the exact experience my kids need to become the amazing humans they're going to become.

And that has manifested in a way, you know, from even the most negative. Like this. Because when I got divorced, they were still going back and forth with custody, and it was really hard for me to put them in a situation that I might have termed as emotionally abusive and neglect. And I had to believe this is exactly what these amazing people need.

Like, even though my heart is breaking, this is I can't do anything. I tried the court system, you know, this is what they need to become these emotionally intelligent, resilient men. And that that sort of thinking and believing and taking the action and my parenting out of love, not fear, has made it so. These these boys are these men who have, just like all five of ours, are our boys and have just spread their wings and they're just saw, you know, it's just it's like divorce has been a wonderful thing for all of them, which is like, oh my gosh. Are you kidding?

That's one most paradoxical in itself that it's setting the example that that by not self abandoning, you're giving them the opportunity to be who they are.

I'm chuckling to myself because here we are in radio, talking about how great it is to get divorced and how you should get divorced for your kids, and how you should get divorced for your well-being and your happiness. And I know that's not what you're advocating 100%. That's not what we're advocating. But here you are on the other side. You have made this decision that you feel was the right decision for you at the right time, in the right way, and maybe it's actually delayed, but, you know, you can't look back because then you wouldn't be on the app at the right day, at the right time, and you wouldn't have started that conversation. Whatever. Not interested in revisionist history, but here you are now.

You are two people who have gotten divorce and then chosen to remarry. What? What have you? What do you know? What have you learned that you are applying now as a result of what you learned? Let's just call it through failure or through the dissolution anyway of a first relationship. What are the what are the things that you're that you've brought into this new space that, like, you kind of maybe couldn't do it without?

I have completely viewed how I define and view relationships and the point of relationships. When I was a young woman, I thought relationships, you know, sort of completed me or were here to meet my needs or were like I was getting something from them. And then I had to also give something to the relationship. And now my view of relationship is that, you know, what is the point of being in a marriage? What is the point in having a relationship? It's twofold. It's it's one to learn about yourself. Like a relationship is a container of self-growth. The things that trigger me about Paul are things for me to learn about myself. And the second part of the why we're in a relationship is that it gives me someone to love, to practice loving another person in their imperfections.

It's easy to love him when he's picking up his socks, and he's making me delicious salmon for dinner. But how about when he's like, could you just close the cabinet and, you know, like, it gives you it gives us practice to love someone, which is great because that brings us back to the whole thing of like, oh, get divorced. No, that's not at all what we're saying. We have, you know, all relationships have bumps and things in the road because we're in these relationships to heal parts of ourselves that need to be healed and that this is this is our, you know, journey here on Earth school, that is, I run a monthly membership called The Love of Your Life School, where we're teaching these things that like this is part of like, you know, my triggers are about me.

And these things that are coming up are about like, what can we learn together? How do we join together? Whereas before I was much more adversarial, like, who's right, who's wrong? You know? And I had to prove that maybe my ex-husband was wrong so I could be right or I was wrong so he could write instead of this. Like, that's just throw that model out and let's see what this is teaching us. That has been a foundational shift for me. And having a partner then that is also coming at it from that lent that he's also not putting on me like Susie. I'm upset. You need to go fix yourself. It's your fault. You're wrong. Although, you know, it's much more. It's a more mature model of relating and relationship.

Yeah, yeah. That's cool. You have thoughts on that, Paul?

Yeah, I'm just going to touch on what you shared initially. Zach. Something along the lines of you couldn't do it without the experience. Now to sit here to say whether we're an advocate for divorce or not, Isabella, it's the experience, the experience, knowledge that you gain that creates the wisdom to be able to sit there and say, well, it's not whether you're married or not married. That's a moot point. And who am I? How am I approaching this relationship? What am I creating from it?

Yeah.

And in that old model of relationship, I think we sort of went to it in a younger state as almost like two broken pieces, you know, like, oh my gosh, okay, how does this husband help me? And he's sort of broken. So I'm like, how does I help him? Whereas we now are coming and taking responsibility like we are to humans responsible for our own self-regulation, our own emotional growth, our own, and then together we can come together and see where that's met. Its the interdependence. Whereas before we were both very much in codependence, you know, then swinging all the way to the extreme like, you know, other inter independent, you know, like I don't need anyone anywhere anyhow. So here it is, is it's like we are very aware of our responsibility of like one plus one equals three in this case.

Whereas before it was like half and a half equals -400. When it shows up in relationship, we're looking for that person to almost do our inner growth.

Yeah. What do you mean when you say one plus one equals three?

Yeah. Like one me my job is to learn about Susie, love, Susie, accept all the parts of Susie so that Susie can be a solid whole one person. Paul's job is to learn about Paul, figure out about Paul, and so that Paul can be a solid whole one person, like a strong man, a strong woman or whatever, you know, and then together we're way stronger. Like we aren't. We aren't not. It makes it so much just overall more responsible. I explaining.

That, yeah, I think you know why there's a simplified version is there's a safe container where your job is to be you.

And to learn about yourself, like a commitment to.

Oh yeah, if you're in a partnership with that person is allowing you to be you with all your positives, negatives.

And the same is marriage.

Safe container is a relationship. It to me doesn't have to be marriage. It's any relationship that you're comfortable enough to be you and that person that you're sharing time with has compassion and wisdom to say, oh, I see you. It's no different to me. You're going through exactly the same highs and lows. Human is hard. You're going through that.

Human and. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, Susie, you you said you have a you have a coaching practice or you have a community. What's it called?

The love Your life school is my membership for. It's a monthly membership where it is like a school, like I teach classes in there. My background is in education before I became a coach and helping people. So I have classes in there on emotional regulation, on how to have difficult conversations, on how, you know. And then I also am a parenting coach, so I have lots of classes in there. And then I also have a component with live coaching, because that's how we do the healing in the in the getting the support from a, you know, professional that can help in that way. And then I have a podcast. It started with my podcast, which is the Love Your Life show, because I wanted to get on there every week and teach tips and tricks to people for free to help them. And then if they want to take it to the next level, they come to the school.

What I want to know is, what have you learned about what makes it hard for people to love their lives? Like who, who, who is struggling with this? And why are they struggling with the concept of loving their life?

I think I think ultimately, Zach, it's that people think they should feel happy all the time or feel like content all the time. Like if they don't feel like zinging and that something's gone wrong, like an ability to, you know, feel maybe disappointment or like in a relationship, like discomfort, you know, like feel the trigger and not think like, okay, now I need to get divorced. It's like, oh, no, no, this is a sign of a healthy relationship. This is what we do. You're just coming up against your next level. We sort of have a, a a just a view of our life that like, if I do this, then like, if I, you know, if the husband starts, you know, hugging me when I come home from work, then I'll feel happy.

Or if the kids do this then and like, we're just then what? Then we'll be happy and living in la la land with rainbows and daisies. Where the reality is, the way I see it is that we are just constantly on this, on this self-learning experience. And how do we learn about ourselves through trial and trepidation? You know, like, I literally am living my dream life. I am in my dream location with my dream man am I and I still cry and I still get upset for dumb reasons, and I still. And it's like this part of us that when we're thinking that shouldn't be the case, we're really like, we're bringing a lot of just suffering to our life and like, what's wrong with me? And it's like, nothing's frigging wrong with you, sweetheart. You're a human. Human is are. Let me help you make it easier.

Yeah. I think what Susie is. How how how do I process and share emotions in a regulated manner that allows me to to let the bubbles rise. You know, most people say I don't want this. Whatever this is, I don't want it to continue its suffering. It's uncomfortable. I don't want it. Yeah, but equal in value is I don't want this to stop. It's the most amazing thing I've ever had. I don't want it to stop. Well, the natural reality says it's. Everything's impermanent.

And I think there's a lot in our society that emphasizes intellectual learning, you know, as we're chronologically aging. So we're getting to be like ten and 15 and, and then we're like going to our intellectual schools and we're building that, but not so much about our EQ, our emotional learning. And that that is the more maturity that, you know, many of us were not taught how to feel feelings, how to be okay, just feeling disappointed. And that part brings a lot of suffering that then we aren't loving our life. Like, you know that it is this emotional maturity, as Paul's saying, learning how to feel a feeling and act in a way that isn't so, you know, that is in alignment with the person you want to be. And learning how to maybe when you don't act in a way that is the person you want to be coming back and repairing.

That is one thing we've taught all our boys that really the most important thing we want for them in future partners. Two things is one, the ability to self-regulate and two, the ability to repair.

And how do you do that? Well, you do that.

But it's but it's not the other partners job to teach. It's like coming to one plus one, like two adults coming together. And they're responsibility is to learn how to self-regulate and how to repair. And then together, the use of the relationship is a more healthy container.

Zach, if you're in a relationship where perhaps you're not getting that from your partner, well, you're not getting that safe space to be able to make a mistake and repair if you're in that type of relationship. For me, one of the most important things is to recognize. And where am I doing that?

Do you, Paul, have language around? I'm guessing that you do around what qualifies as repair when you say, hey, we're going to try and learn how to repair. What is that in terms of your your philosophy.

Taking ownership for your part, taking ownership for your half of the road.

I mean, you're really good at this.

Well, give me an example.

Well, I'm trying to think of.

When I come back and say, hey, I could have handled it more skillfully.

Yeah, yeah. Or like the other day. And this is so minor, like I'm in here in my office working. And I heard him, like, having an episode with himself in there with, like, the grocery bags or whatever, you know, and it's just like LA. And then later he's. Yeah. And just coming in and and not blaming me because I left something in the floor like just sort of like, yeah, I was a little unregulated earlier there. I don't know if you heard it, but I was having a tough time. To me, that's the sexiest thing ever in a man like for him to own. He's like, yeah, I was just having a hard time. Like, whereas before maybe it would have seemed like dumb or childlike to be like, yeah, I literally lost my bleep over the grocery bags.

You know, for me as like to have that safety and maturity in the relationship of a man who can be like, I'm human. Sometimes I lose my Bleep over silly things, I own it and I speak of it like I'm not a little child. It's like, oh, so yes.

Yeah, I guess in my word got it. See my words. It's awareness of nothing outside of me creates my emotions. I have emotions here to teach me something. They here to serve me. I'm not here to serve him. If I lose my shit over falling over the things that you might have left in the. In an inappropriate area where I sort of carry luggage up the stairs. Well, if I have an emotional reaction to that, it's not the circumstance. It's, it's, it's it's my thoughts about that. What am I thinking that means did Susie intentionally leave that there? No.

Yeah. Think you own it?

I don't. Okay, so Susie's got the school and the podcast. Paul, what are you. What are you up to? What do you do with your time?

So for the past decade, I've been studying, practicing and teaching Buddhism, mindfulness and meditation.

I bet that helps you pause when you're walking up the stairs with the laundry or the grocery. Or what did you call the luggage to you? You know, you always tell people that people will hear that I'm a marriage therapist. They must have great marriage. I go, no, I don't have a great marriage. But I also don't have any excuses. Man, I got a pretty good marriage. But it's not.

A.

Yeah, I.

Do like because I've been practicing, I practice like 40 hours a week. You know, I'm sitting there with people and I'm giving them all these skills and stuff, and I come home and if I just let that practice go, I'm in trouble, you know? So yeah, I just try to maintain like, I've got no excuses for not being able to figure this out. Why? So, Paul, tell me, why did you decide that you wanted to come talk to me and Susie on this podcast?

Oh, predominantly. I know how to reduce anxiety, depression and overwhelm, so why wouldn't I want to share that?

And what's the secret?

Reducing either any of the anxiety, depression or overwhelm is recognizing that through the experience of them, we can learn what to do with them. So combining mindfulness techniques, yes, by all means combining mindfulness techniques. But but actually understanding that the process is through experiencing discomfort that we get to the level of comfort. So it's not like we get to a position where I think, oh good. And then we'll discomfort. It's the opposite. And a marriage, a true marriage is full of discomfort.

I think it's back to what you were saying. And it's not. Judging those feelings is what Paul sort of lightens everything up around that. Like the anxiety, the overwhelm, depressions. Like you're not some broken human model that something's wrong with you and we need to fix. It's like, oh, okay. Yeah, it makes sense. You're feeling overwhelm or like he can really lighten things up so as to ease people's suffering. It's really a wonderful thing that I've witnessed.

Zach, in your role. Yeah. Would stand to reason that you're learning a lot about Zach.

Yeah, I am learning a lot about Zach. I was I just had therapy today, and I was telling my therapist all this stuff that I've had to, like, quickly metabolize because of some dynamics in my own house. But yeah, I agree with almost everything you're saying. Like, it is my job to take care of Zach and make sure that can show up as a healthy, you know, functional teammate in order to make the game but go better. You know, that's that's the way I think about it.

To do that. Zach. Can you say that the polarities must exist? The good Zach and the bad sack, the dark.

Zach 100%. Yeah, absolutely.

Right. Well, most clients that I.

Have 100.

Percent, most clients I have believed that there's only one side. I just want to be this one.

They just want to be that. Yeah.

Just. Can I just have the can I.

Just.

Not the down and and it's them that you need the down in order to see the up.

There's just loving on all of that. Loving on. Yeah I do have that dark. Yeah I am and that's I guess back to my relationship model. Is that learning to like learning to love ourselves and our light and dark and our ridiculousness and our like, our awesomeness and our awfulness is wonderful. And then learning to love another human, getting out of the fallacy that there's some perfect human out there that's never going to, you know, leave this shopping bags in the middle of the stairs. It's like learning to love that person in my favorite definition for love is just simply acceptance. It's just that, you know, not hoping. It's just accepted. Yeah. This is this is the husband model I have. Let me see how I love it and let me see how I accept that you have light and dark and the polarities that Paul is talking about.

And learning to come from a common center position while you're doing it. Yeah.

I love it. Well, listen, I'm really glad to talk to you both. I think that you're on to something. I think it's a little bit of irony that we're spent as much time as we did talking about divorce, but it's just back to this idea that you have to have the downside in order to have the upside. And perhaps, maybe the upside is higher because of the downside. And that's a, you know, that's not something that everybody gets to wrap their head around. So I hope that you're hope that people will hear that and take some comfort. And if they want to find you in particular, Susie, what should they do? And it's women. You work primarily with women. Like if you're a man, you're like to to bad you can't join the school.

Like for men. I primarily I work with women, although I do hear a lot of men listen to my podcast. So I have the Love of Your life show on all the platforms. And I do offer an initial roadmap for people because I'm at 400 episodes now, and I. So I have a podcast roadmap, which is at my website, SMB Welcome Roadmap, which just has the foundations for emotional intelligence. A lot of the stuff we weren't taught in school that helps people, whether the relationship is their spouse, the relationship with themselves, the relationship with their kids. I work a lot with parents who are, you know, really because as the kids get older, we think like, oh no, they're raised. But no, the older they get, the the more they need us in our emotional adulthood, the teenage, the young adult. But yes, exactly. So that is I helped a lot with that.

Minor 19 and 23. And I've been saying for years that I think parenting young adults is way harder than parenting young kids, and it's because of what you have to let go of, you know, like, oh, well. And because.

We're like, oh, it's just my job to do this. When they're for it, it's like, no.

No, no, you got to let go of those two, right?

Like yeah, yeah. It's our expectations are off. So I help a lot of parents with that and bring a lot of that's probably one of the most fun things I do is relieve a lot of the drama in households, whether the kids are in their pre-teens, teens or they've already launched and helped those relationships get closer just through the parent. It's beautiful, I love it. Yeah. So find me on the Love Your Life show.

Very cool. And Paul, do you have a find you part or is there.

Yeah, sure. It's my name, Palpita. It's a website. If you go there. Okay, cool. I'll put a link onto the website that your listeners can get a 15 minute free consultation to see how you can bring more ease into your life. How's that sound?

Yeah. So send it to me and I will make sure that we put it in the show notes, and we'll make sure that people who are interested know exactly how to find you. I'm grateful that you came on today. Thank you so much. And. Yeah, just happy summer. I guess you're turning the corner here pretty soon. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the thing about Australia, it's not like Virginia where we both used to live, is that it's pretty nice and beautiful all year.

It looks like that behind.

You all year round. Yeah. Seattle has summer and then gray. So we have summer and then we have gray. And but I always talk about Virginia, Virginia where I grew up. We had four seasons. We had summer, which was hot, and it started on June 21st and it ended on September 21st, and then we had football season, which was beautiful. And then we had winter, which was cold and icy, and then we had spring, which was rainy and lovely, and they all started. They were exactly 90 days long and you know exactly where you were the entire time. And so we don't get to do that out here, but, okay. Thanks again for coming on. And I look forward to making sure people find out about you. Thank you.

So wonderful.