What If Taking Responsibility Is the Most Romantic Thing You Can Do? w/ Arlina and Bob Allen

I read your little survey thing that I have people fill out and I'm dying to ask you. I want to talk about Game of Thrones. Can we talk about Game of Thrones?

She's crazy. We do more than that. There's more than watching Game of Thrones.

Well, thank you.

I'm sure.

The thing was like, what's your thing? And it was like, well, Game of Thrones.

Yeah, Game of Thrones.

Yeah.

It is true.

Okay. All right. So I got a question for you. Which Game of Thrones character are you?

That's a good one.

That is a good one.

Tyrion Lannister. I love that guy.

Tyrion. He knows things and drinks. I drink and I know things.

I drink and I know things.

Yep. Maybe that's your answer. He's a great character. I love him. But do you think that?

No, I love him.

Yeah.

No, that's not. I'd have to think.

That is a good one, though.

I love him. He's my favorite.

What about Jon Snow or Ned Stark or?

Nah, he's too rigid.

Which one?

Ned.

Ned Stevens.

And John Connor.

Yeah. Where are you in the series?

Well, I'll let her explain this to you. It's our bedtime story. So we've been we've been watching it on repeat.

I think it's a comfort thing.

Yeah, 100%, 100%.

For like years.

Yeah.

So we don't even know. We tried to end. We just start over. We just start over. And that's the show that we fall asleep to at night.

We're kind of crazy.

We're a little weird.

Well, why? That's all right. I'm into it. Like, I'm actually, I'm actually really into it. So why Game of Thrones? Like, what is it about that show? And do you do the spin-offs? Do you do House of Dragon? Oh, yeah.

He's listening to the audiobook.

Yeah. So, books are better than movies generally, whatnot. So I'm into the audio books right now. And it's just another layer of like, my gosh, they left out a lot, but they incorporated, it's just, I'm seeing the differences.

Well, except for book one and season one. Book one, season one is almost word for word faithful recreation of the book. Yeah. They're like, I mean, I remember reading it and I was like, I could skip chapters because I could just go straight ahead and know, and then, or I would come back and know, that's exactly what it was. Anyway, so.

You're a fan. Okay, we're not there.

Well, I'm not a repeat watching fan. Like I watched it faithfully and I did the whole thing and I was there every week, Sunday night, 10 o'clock or whatever it was. And yeah, no, I wouldn't miss it, but I haven't re-watched it. My daughter is currently watching it now for the first time. So she's right now in season, I want to say she's in five right now.

But she's seen Hold the Door.

Right. I think that is the that is the most impressive payoff on a television show. Like you and you're kind of like, it's like, what is going on? And it's like not even a thing. And then all of a sudden it's the thing.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

That was crazy.

My favorite episode is the second-half of Hard Home, where John first sees the White Walkers and the guy raises his hands and stuff.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know why, but that's a great, that's probably my favorite.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just, yeah, no, listen, I think there's a lot to learn from stuff like this. When people get caught up in stories, like what part of the story do they get caught up in? Like, what is the thing that appeals to them? And I do think, like, one of the reasons I asked you about which character you are is because I have this, I have this belief that Anything you do is only worth doing if it's a conversation piece. Like my go-to personality typing tool is the Enneagram. I don't know if you know the Enneagram at all, but like, so I've, you know, I talk about the Enneagram and somebody's an eight or a two or whatever, and I'm like, okay, that's fine. You can be an eight and a two. Cool. But you could actually talk about which Game of Thrones character you are. And I say this, I say that sentence all the time. And it will tell you, it will tell you about

how you view the world, how you think about things, how you show up in different places. And so if you're Tyrion or you're Arya or you're, you know, Cersei or whatever, that says something about you. And that's why I thought you guys would be the perfect people to ask this question to, because this is how we make meaning. We make meaning by stories. And you guys have gotten caught up in this story for a while. And so I'm intrigued.

Yeah. Years. Years. Years. I do keep coming back to Tyrion. I love that guy. Yeah. I guess I guess I would have to resonate a little bit with him.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, he is the voice of reason and of honesty. You know, he's not dubious. He's just really straightforward, you know?

For sure.

He's funny.

Notably, and this is just part of your thing, Tyrion is the character who drinks and knows things, but that's not you guys. You don't drink. That's not your, yeah. So, but there's something about the appeal of that vice, perhaps, that speaks to you. Like, what do you know about that?

The drink and know, I think knowing things. Wow. Without coming across like a know-it-all. I've been through some things and I've seen a lot of life. I mean, I'm still relatively young. I just turned 56, so.

Yeah.

But yeah.

We're old. We qualify for senior discounts now.

Yeah, that was wild.

No. But yeah, when do you get that?

Apparently it happens at 55. I'm 2 years late to the game. I'm 57.

Yeah, I was just at the grocery store and I don't know if it's the gray hair, but the cashier is like, are you 55? I'm all, I'm where she goes, are you a senior citizen?

Oh my God.

I'm 56. And she marks the thing. I go, yeah, cool. And then it was like the happiest, saddest day of my life. I'm like, she told you you're a citizen. She gave money, but I'm a senior citizen. Oh man. Anyway. Yeah.

But you know what? You being Tyrion makes sense because you like people and everybody likes you and he has a real way with people. So I could, not the drinking part, but he's funny and he...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I tend to get along with people real well.

Yeah.

It just comes easy kind of to me. I'm actually in, that's part of what I do is for a career. I kind of in the... quarterback and I operate with engineers, executives, to the, front desk and I'm kind of the guy that orchestrates all the communications, so.

Yeah, pulling, you're like the, you're not quite the quarterback, you're more like the guy in the chair. Yeah.

In the throne.

Yeah. Well, that's a trope in comic books and superhero movies is that there's the hero, he's out there, but then there's the guy in the chair and he's the one who actually is directing all the traffic. He knows what's going on. He sees the stuff. So in the Spider-Man movies with Tom Holland, Ned, celebrates. He's the guy in the chair. I'm the guy in the chair. I'm the guy in the chair because he's got all this stuff. But Arlena, do you know? Do you know who you are in Game of Thrones?

I think I'd probably either be Sansa or Arya. I really like the idea of Arya because obviously she kills the ** guy.

Yeah. Spoiler alert. If you haven't watched game, I mean, it's an 8 year old chair, so who cares? Yeah, too bad.

Yeah. But I like that she kind of goes on her, she blazes her own trail. She's like a rule breaker. She doesn't like to follow the rules. And she's true to herself. And I like that about her.

That's definitely you. Rule breaker.

How is that like you?

I am a rule breaker. He's always called me a rule breaker. I like to learn the rules so that I know where I can break them. Do you know what I mean?

Sure.

Yeah. I'm like an entrepreneur by trade. I'm always starting things and doing things. And I definitely try to blaze my own trail. So.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm more in I paint within the borders, you know, I'm very controlled, very like, you know.

We're very pretty kind of opposite that way.

A little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. Do you know, are you team, team green or team black? This is from, House of the Dragon.

That's what I was just thinking.

Yeah.

I'm black. Black. Yeah. 100%. I'm not green. No.

High towers. No, thank you.

I love it. I love it.

Yeah.

Thank you for going on that side quest with me. Tell me about tell me about Arlena and Bob. Like, what's the story? Who are you guys? Why are you? Why are you interesting? Besides being fantastic bedtime story people.

Yeah.

Well, so we actually met in a recovery community. I was 25 and he was 24. So it's been a minute. And yeah, we still like each other a lot. He's actually my favorite person after all this time. Listen, we've been through some ups and downs for sure. But we sort of had like this because of our recovery foundation. We really have had a process for resolving resentment. My feeling is that resentment is sort of like a wedge that drives people apart. And we've had this practical, you know, in the 12 steps, the four step is about a personal inventory. So it's really been a way to mitigate a lot of the stress and resentment that naturally arises. in a relationship and it's really all about taking personal responsibility and owning your part and just staying focused on your side.

I think also along with that is we had a community, right? So, any time in life, looking back then is, if I had issues, I had this group of men that really taught me how to be a man, in terms of owning my feelings and what's truth, what's not truth, what's my part, what's, you know, her part, whatnot. But having to have, you know, having those men is like soundboard. I would, you know, instead of, I learned that, you know, I need to hold my tongue a little bit and bring my whatever it was to the people that I found, the men that I've felt comfortable with and close with and say, this is what's going on. And, they would pull out the pieces and be like, okay, that's not your business that, this is your part, right? So learning my part and things, what I did, what I said, whatever it was, right? And then I was able to go back to Arlena and own my part and be like, and

if we're having an issue, it would be like, okay, this is what, this is how I feel. This is what I did. If I need to make amends there, I would clean it up right there. You know, how do I become a better man? Or how do I, you know, what can I do better? Or how can I make that right? Something like along those lines, right? I mean, we had our people and then we'd come when we were kind of, okay with it or we figured it out, then we would come back and have discussions. I mean, that started, like she said, she was, we're in our early 20s, right? And to this day, I'm, I mentioned 56, I still do the same things. If I get wound up tight, I go to, I kind of retreat, look at myself, look what's going on, get another opinion or whatnot. And then?

Yeah, but truth be told, after all this time, we've worked a lot of stuff out. So it's pretty smooth. Like it's been a long time since.

It's rare that we fight. I mean, she's my best friend, you know, the most important person in my life that it kills me when I do something that, you know, hurts her or what. If I say something, I'm pretty much immediately, I'm like, oh my God, that was horrible.

Yeah, I can't even remember the last time. It was probably your fault. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Yeah.

No, but being able to communicate has been sort of the thing that I really give credit to our longevity and the fact that we're happy and we're super close.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, maybe you can't think of one, but do you have a story? Like, do you have a go-to story that you tell about your resentment process? Like you can kind of go, this, for example, is how I'd love to hear it. I mean, it's in real time. Like, how did you actually, how do you actually put this theory into practice in real life?

I have an example. I do have a go-to story because I feel like this sort of embodies it perfectly. So when we were first, actually, I think we were already engaged and we were planning a wedding and we were broke back in the day, right? We didn't have a lot of money, so we were saving money. We both had money issues, but like in the opposite, like I was super controlling and and Gene, he was more carefree, shall we say, with money. And anyway, so we had gone out to dinner with another couple. Oh, yeah, Ed and Leslie. Ed, he was a baller. He was doing really well. He had a lot of money, and he and Bob kind of team up, and Bob's very amiable. He'll kind of go along, go with the flow type of guy. And he and Ed, we had this waitress who was really great, and they thought it would be a great idea to give her a big tip. And I was not okay with that.

I worked in a service industry for a long time, so I'm a good tipper, but these guys were talking. they were just feeling really generous. And I was like, I was so uncomfortable. And I didn't know how to express my discomfort in a peaceful, loving way. At the end of the day, I made everybody uncomfortable. Because I wasn't okay with it. And I don't remember what happened, but Leslie and I went to the bathroom. She's like, I think I need to go to the bathroom. Do you want to come? And I was like, okay. So to break the tension, I think, poor thing, she couldn't stand it. And anyway, I was really upset and I didn't know how to express myself. And he thought I was, I'm sure he didn't appreciate how I was behaving. Yeah. Anyway, it was a big mess. And we were, I was upset and I, we tried to talk it out, but we were like, for whatever reason, it was a really hot topic.

Like money is one of those things that I would just get hot about.

Yeah, you've been a long way with that, by the way.

Yes, thank you. But so anyway, we couldn't talk about it at first. And so we did what we usually do, what we had been doing, because I was probably three years sober by this point. Yeah. So we did what we typically do, which is I reach out to my sponsor and he reaches out to his sponsor, right? And I reach out to Julie and I was like, Bobby do this and Bobby do that, blah, blah, blah. She listens and she goes, okay, well, I don't sponsor him. Oh, wow. Okay. I was like, *. I was so mad. She's like, did you just want to vent? Do you want feedback? How can I help you? And so she and I talked about what was really going on for me. I was afraid that I wasn't going to get what I wanted. I was afraid that And I was resentful because I was like practicing deprivation and denying myself things.

And so I was feeling like the lack of just not having enough money and really like depriving myself to save for this thing. And I felt like he didn't care. I felt like it wasn't important to him. I felt like he didn't think that my feelings were more important than some random stranger. And I wasn't able to articulate that at the moment, but I was like, okay, I'm resentful of him. He was giving this, you know, they go, there's four columns in this four-step process. So it's who are you resentful at, the specific cause of why, how were you affected, and what was your part? And it was clear to me that it was his fault. I was just trying to be nice.

Do you know what I mean? Make somebody's day a little bit better, but.

Yeah, a stranger's day. I was in her fiance's day. I thought he just didn't want to look bad in front of Ed, but whatever.

Yeah.

I was affected because like, you know, it was all selfish and self-centered motives. And Julie helped me to see that. And she's like, he is a grown-ass man. He gets to spend his money however he sees fit. Like, so she really helped me to see clearly. And she and I talked it through to where I was able to kind of find some empathy for him and how I made him feel. And it was kind of like that awkward moment where you realize you're the jerk. And I was like, oh, shoot. So, you know, controlling behaviors and all that stuff. And so I was.

Like, say it again, the four parts you got.

So who are you resident for that?

Why specifically?

A specific cause. What was affected in me?

Yep. And then what was your part?

And what was my part and what was affected in me? Like I had all these fears. It was just basically fears. Fears that he didn't love me. He didn't think my thing was important enough. I was depriving myself. I was expecting. Yeah. So it was, but I couldn't see it until it was sort of all laid out. And then she helped me to see what my part was in it. And then when I was able to sort of realize that how uncomfortable I made everybody feel and how controlling I was being. That was my part. And so once I got clarity about that, then I could come back to him and be like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. But an amends isn't just, I'm sorry. It's, I can see how my behavior made you feel uncomfortable and I am sorry. And is there anything I can do to make it right?

Yeah. Was there anything you could do to make it right?

I don't know, it was a long time ago.

Well, yeah, but you, that's one thing that I think as you're talking there, we've always like, didn't just say I'm sorry, but we really tried to improve, like how to become, you know, how to not do that again, right? Like I'm sure there was times, I don't remember, but it's so far and few in between. I mean, I don't remember.

I feel it, and I feel like you went and did the whole process. 100%. When we did come back together, he was clear about what his part was. Yeah. And so we just had to come to an understanding about.

Learning how to be a couple.

I mean, learning how we're going to spend money and make decisions.

Yeah. I mean, even we literally just had this conversation, you know, now I'm buying, or we would buy big ticket items and it's like, hey, there's some, it's kind of unstable in the work. I'm okay, but like, excuse me, there's some stuff going on. It's like, whoa, we better watch our spending a little bit, right? And, we did some big ticket items and we, just the other day, I remember it's like, hey, if it's, X amount of dollars, we need to have a discussion first. And I'm like, absolutely, right? Not just, you know, I just can't go on Amazon or, wherever. and spend, a couple 100 bucks, right? I need to check in and be like, this is what I'm thinking, right? And, we've been, what is it now, 31 years together? It's 31, right?

Yeah, I think.

About, three decades with somebody. I question myself now. It's like, hey, this is my thoughts. This is what I'm thinking or feeling. What do you think? Right? Like.

It's just about considering the other person's feelings.

Well, and I think too, that's kind of one of the things that's baked in here is, we talk about couples, you've seen this before, couples with chicken and egg something, they'll be like, but you did this, but I only did that because you did this, but you did this first, you know, and I'm high on saying, what if you chicken and egg in the opposite direction? Where you're like, hey, this is my fault because I put you in an uncomfortable situation. No, I shouldn't have done that because I didn't even ask you first before I decided to tip this lady. Yeah, but actually you're a grown man. You can do whatever you want with your money. Yeah, but still I should, you know, and you almost like see if you can out responsible the other, not in a competitive way, but in a way that leads exactly to what you're just doing, where you laugh and you go, oh, aren't we silly?

Like, aren't we ridiculous that we let ourselves get so spun up about something like this? When you crack that code, it's pretty fantastic. Like, because you can actually go, oh, this isn't really about which one of us is the worst. Which one of the other one of us is the worst? It's about which one of us is the, can take the most responsibility, which I think is a privilege sometimes in conflict. So.

Yeah.

I noticed like if there's just like a little flare up or whatever, we are very quick to be like.

Super quick.

Yeah. To be like, I probably shouldn't have said that or I probably shouldn't have done that. And it, listen, we've had a lot of practice over the years.

Yeah.

So yeah, things, it's pretty smooth sailing at this point.

Yeah.

I would, I would say now our challenges a lot of times are around, you know, what do we want to do? for fun, like when we're talking about retirement and stuff.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Yeah, we're emptying, we're on the verge of being empty nesters. And so probably sometimes, I'm always like, I like my kids. I want my kids to stay. You don't have to go. And he's sort of at the school of like, yeah, you need to.

Get your butts off the nest and start living life. Yeah. With all love and respect with that. But you know what I mean.

Who are they? Oh, yeah, I know what you mean.

My parents.

They're 25 and 22. One's going to Japan in like 50 days.

Yeah, I'm excited for him.

Yeah. And the other one, he's going to be out of here pretty soon. He's moved out once before, then needed to come home for a minute. that he's going to leave again. And then so we're going to be alone.

Yeah, it's going to be like going back when we were dating and, first married and no children. It's like, oh, what do we do now?

What do you want to do? What do you want to do? I don't know. What do you want to do?

Well, yeah, and that's really different than a lot of couples, because a lot of couples come up against empty nests and they're like, well, now what are we going to do?

Yeah.

Versus, well, now what are we going to do? You know, and so there's something about that you guys have tapped into, which is, intriguing to think about.

Yeah.

I keep asking him, what kind of experiences do you want to have?

Yeah. But we're homebodies, so we're so fine. Yeah, that's the thing.

I want to sit down and watch Game of Thrones for seven straight hours.

Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. I want to act out the parts of Game of Thrones. Role play. Role play, get our costumes know.

With a Ren Faire.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's an interesting question. It's like, what experiences do you want? I definitely, traveling for sure. And, being with you, going different places and.

And we have a little side hustle project. It's a little creative project. I make soap and he makes candles.

It's actually a lot of fun.

So I'm thinking, I'm thinking that's something that we can do in retirement.

Yeah. Something.

Yeah.

Yeah. But we need a project for retirement.

I have a, I have a curiosity that, um, that, you know, this thing's called Marriage Therapy Radio. And I wonder if you've done a lot of work in recovery and it seems like you've been, you've got sponsors and you've got communities. Have you done marriage therapy? Have you done couples therapy? And then what was, what was that? And did you, how did it work? How did it work for you?

We've been a couple of times. The first time we went into therapy was when we moved in together.

Okay.

Yeah. We went to this guy.

Oh yeah.

Remember Len?

Was it Len? Yeah. He used to be there.

We went to this guy, Len, and I don't even remember.

I don't know what our issue was. I forgot.

Yeah, but you know, yeah, I think it was a lot around communication. There was a lot of issues around money. I had a lot of money issues. I was really controlling. And so we went to Len and he was kind of like a referee and he would help me see his part and he would help see my part.

They would kind of do that. It was like in real time. Instead of going to, you know, our sponsors our separate ways, I could see how her wheels were turning or what she was thinking or feeling at that moment, you know, and then having that third party there that was kind of It was, it was, it was actually really cool.

It was real time. And you're right.

All for there, if it, couples therapy, if I would go again in a heartbeat if there was something we couldn't get past. Absolutely.

Yeah. But it was that real time, real time sort of working it out that was really important for us. And I would go by myself and then he would go by himself. So that felt, we felt like he had sort of both sides. And then we'd come together, then he gave us some ideas about like how we could be more patient with each other. Or actually, it was interesting. one thing I do remember is the advice we got was that I needed to sort of relax and let go a little bit.

That's right.

And to give him space to move forward. Because if I was so controlling, like I didn't even give him room. to kind of come in and take responsibility because I was all over it. So that was really interesting.

The reason I ask is, you know, I'm a guy in recovery. I also have a therapist that I love. And, you know, sometimes people will come into my office and they'll say, like, let's just, this is the dynamic that most happens, is a woman, a heterosexual couple will be in there and she will say, I really want him to go to therapy. And I don't think that's what she wants. What she wants is for him to, let's say, get sober or become more emotionally available or work on his anger or, um, stop being depressed. You know, like she wants an outcome. And, you know, I will say the same thing I always say, which is like, maybe therapy, but maybe it's a 12 step program, or maybe it's a small group at your church, or maybe it's a YouTube guru, or maybe it's a whatever.

But I wonder, having been people who are in therapy and having been people who are in, uh, who, who understand how recovery programs work, What is the thing that they have in common? Like, what is the thing that is consistent in that environment that feels like, oh, this is actually the healing thing? It's not the label. It's not the label, the recovery community or the therapist. It's the...

I would say the commonality was that I would think it was like honesty and vulnerability, like being willing to be honest, because there were times when it was really hard to share things. I would say when you were struggling with depression, that was really hard. There was a time when I was like 7 months pregnant and we had a little one already and he had gotten laid off and he was under so much stress. And one night he came into the room, it was like 11 o'clock at night, like during the week. I don't even know why I was still awake. And he came in and he's like, it's not that I want to kill myself. And I don't remember what he said after that because my brain kind of shorted it out. But there were times when we were both so much stress that we really needed. Like, I was so afraid, like I couldn't be the one to help him as the wife, like he needed somebody else.

And that's when we would often seek out, seek out professional help. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like you get, when you get married, you get like a mirror, you get a mirror in your house and you're like, here's the mirror and they hold it up. And then maybe sometimes the value of getting outside of, you know, outside help is you get a different lens, you get a different mirror, or you get a different, you know, maybe a window or something, uh, to help you see what's up. Um, I think in both cases, what you're describing is this pattern of learning how to look at yourself and take care of, you know, your side of the street or your part. And, um, I remember like being in, I remember being in my home as a teenager and my dad saying, you know, You got to look out for number one. You got to take care of yourself. You got to make sure that you're doing your thing. And I heard it exactly like that, kind of selfish and protective. And I rejected it.

I thought, no, you got to take care of other people and you got to be on their business. And now that I'm nearly a senior citizen, I'm reflecting on some of those conversations. And I realize, I think he's right. I think he's right. But the sound is wrong. The sound is, You got to look out for yourself. You got to make sure that you're taking care of yourself and get yourself ready so that you can go do the thing called relationship. And I don't think that's what he meant because I'm not fond of that guy. But I do think that self-care and self-readiness It is a really critical part of being in a healthy relationship. And it seems like you've cracked the code on that a little bit.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think Arlena would agree with me that it's so important to have your own house clean, so to speak. I have to face the things that made-up Bob Allen, made me behave the way that I did back, whether it be bad, good, whatever. I have to own up to it and clean up and look at the things that frighten me, look at the secrets that I was holding onto. And, you know, I'm a big firm believer in the 12 steps. I really am. And that going through that whole process and cleaning house, so to speak, then I could get some good messages in there. Then I could learn how to communicate. Then I, you know, feelings were something not to be, not to run from, but to investigate, right? To be with, to be comfortable with or be uncomfortable with, but then identify what that's all about. And I'm a,

big believer in, you gotta, I gotta clean up what I have because I can transmit something that I don't have, right? Or, does that make sense? Like, I need to be whole, not, I mean, not perfect. And that's not at all what I'm trying to say, but I need to at least be investigating in myself, looking at myself, uncovering the things that are blocking me and then discarding the ones that aren't good. And you know what I mean? And then being able to come into a situation, having an open and honest dialogue with her, right? This is how I'm feeling. This is what's going on. Or what do you think about that? You know, does that make sense? Yeah.

Yeah. The really all this self reflection that is required to have clarity so that you can communicate. And, and really the self-care, we we're both pretty heavy into the self-care practices. It's like second nature now, but like, I definitely have like a morning routine of, you I struggle with meditation, but I really want to be good at that. But it's a gratitude practice for sure. And setting an intention for the day, stuff like that. We do exercise in the morning. And, you know, he always talks about like when he's stretching and stuff, he's praying to God, which kind of reminds me to do that too in my own way. But really just like having a good self-care practice.

Absolutely. Yeah, and it's actually sort of selfish not to do that. I think about as an athlete, like I grew up playing soccer and I can remember being a guy who hid my injuries from my coaches and my parents and my team because I wanted to play. And I would go out and I wouldn't be as effective or I would let my team down or I would get burned on certain things. And so I can actually remember psychologically thinking, no, this is the right thing to do, but the right thing to have done was to sit out, rehab my ankle, get ready, strengthen up, be ready for that. So to be a good teammate, like this idea of self-care, I'm actually having a little bit of a mind-blowing era in my life where like, no, actually self-care, to not do self-care is actually selfish.

Exactly. Because when I, when I'm, I'm not, I'm two very different people. Me with self-care and me without self-care. You're two very different people. And you're right. It is selfish not to do the self-care because if I don't do it, then he's the one that suffers. Yeah.

I agree.

You agree? You suffer. You suffer. I suffer the most.

That's crazy. Well, so what do you, what do you have planned? What are you going to do? Like when you, I guess, as your kids, move on and move out. Like, do you have actual dreams and goals that you're that you're ready to pursue? Or is that TBD?

I have many ideas.

Yeah, she I know she does 100%.

I have all kinds of shenanigans planned. So I just got to get him to come along for the ride.

I have I'm pretty easy going that way, too, to be honest.

It's like, okay, let's go. Let's do this.

We've only been in the state for like 6 years and we haven't really explored that much.

So I'd like to get out and see.

He was talking about, that was actually his idea that he'd like take it out more and explore. There's like hot springs and canyons and rivers.

Well, yeah, it's beautiful.

Will you go to Japan?

I would love to go to Japan one day. Probably not this trip, but that's definitely on a bucket list. We just did our, we went to Italy, Rome, Paris. That was amazing. But I mean, that's pricey. So yeah.

That's a long flight too. Listen, we also like The Hobbit. Yes. The Lord of the Rings. Yeah. So Adventures are terribly uncomfortable things, as they would say.

Yeah. The reason I ask is my kid, by the time this episode comes out, she'll already be there. But she leaves for Japan next week. She'll be there for 12 weeks. And we're actually going to go visit her for like about 14 days. I guess that's two weeks. And so now I'm sort of obsessed. Whenever I hear the word, I'm like, oh, what do you do? What are you going to go? What are you going to see? How's that going to work? Will she be in Tokyo? She's going to be in Tokyo studying Japanese. Yeah, so she'll be there learning the Japanese language and culture. So she just graduated from high school last year, and we enrolled her in a gap year program. So she did, in the fall, she did 12 weeks in nine cities on 3 continents. So she took six weeks in Europe, three weeks in Australia, and three weeks in Thailand. That's awesome. And saw the whole world.

And then she's here now, and then she goes to Japan. She'll be there for 12 full weeks. as part of this gap year program, staying in like a little hostel, she'll have her own apartment, she'll have to do her own laundry. So, you know, I'm hoping to instill in her self-care as a way to like, make sure that you set yourself up for success. And, you know, she's got, she'll have a lot of freedom, you know, and so I'm hoping that she will, she'll, you know, I don't know, I don't want to say quite take after me, but because I never, you might resonate this, I never learned one thing before I was ready to learn it. I never. Absolutely. So here I am going, don't drink too much. And I know you're a legal age and you got to be careful and make sure you get your budget and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I guess I just have to let her figure it out, you know, because that's the deal. But.

They'll be there at the same time. We should exchange information.

We'll hook them up. Yeah, we'll hook them up. And I will, I'd love that. If people are interested in learning more about Arlena and Bob and what's going on, what should they, how should they find you? Or what is the best way to be in touch with your story?

I actually have a website, soberlifeschool.com, and that is sort of like the hub where people can get access. I do have a sobriety podcast, and I wrote a book, The 12 Step Guide for Skeptics. That's cool. That's all available there. And I do support people who are either thinking about quitting drinking or now that they've gotten sober, it's sort of like, now what? There's a lot of that. Yeah, right on. A lot of self-discovery after people get sober.

And the website is.

SoberLifeSchool.com.

Right on. Okay. We'll make sure to put that in the show notes. And then Bob, if people want to stalk you or figure out how to get some advice.

Good luck. He's not on social media.

You know, I am not. I'm not. And it's a choice I made. Like, I just, I don't, I'm not into any of that. I, you know, I'll support her. She's amazing, by the way. I hear her. I'm like, wow. You're pretty, uh, I'm pretty good.

Pretty good.

That's a smart lady over there. I should, uh, hear from her. Yeah. Well, I am grateful that you chose to come on Marriage Therapy Radio. I'm delighted to hear your story. I think it's a, a, a crack up is the wrong word, but it's, I think it's, uh, very cool that you're invested in this saga. I think we need to get caught up in big, expansive stories, like, because it's so easy to get, get sort of, um, overwhelmed by the moment and forget that this thing is. This thing is eight seasons, at least. There's a lot of story here. And I'm not talking strictly about Game of Thrones, so I love that example that you're setting by just getting caught up and checking it out. So thanks again for joining me. And if you want to learn more about Arlena, go to Cerber Life School and I look forward to being in Friends.

Thanks so much.

Thank you.