She Thought He Was Just a Jerk: The Hidden Addiction That Nearly Cost Them w/ Matt & Paige

So tell me a little about yourselves, like I. I have this guy, Sam, and he goes out and he finds people for me to talk to. And I sort of intentionally don't learn about who they are because I just want to talk to them. Like so I want to hear about who you are and what you're up to and what's important to you. But I also just want to, like, hear about your life and your story and how you're making it work and what is how's that going? So for your game, I'm game. I'd love to just kind of poke around in your brains for a little while. All right. He's the talker.

Are you thinking I was going to leave it to you, but. Oh, wow. That's true. I'll get us going. Okay, so we met at. We were 14 years old when we met.

I saw that.

That we were high school freshmen to one.

Okay.

Just a couple kids there in the DFB area. Okay? Yeah, we went to the same high school. We grew up in the same town and just.

Lights and all that.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The Texas high school football deal. Yeah. But, attached at the hip from the time we were 14 have been inseparable. Inseparable now for 25 years, but wasn't without its challenges. I'll say it that way.

How does that work? Like, how does it work when you're 14 and you meet somebody and of course, you don't know it, 14 that you're going to be together at 24 or 34 like, but but you knew something at 14. Like what did you what did you know or how did it. How did that play out early.

Okay. Well I was just like mesmerized by this guy. He was the bad boy. I was a good girl next door. So I just kind of like I was attracted to that. And I think that we came from two completely different upbringings. Okay. So I was just kind of, I don't know, looking into his life and looking at him, I was like, okay, this is interesting. I'm not sure how this is going to pan out, but I really like this guy. I really enjoyed spending time with him. I enjoyed the things that he brought to the table and just the discussions that we had. And I think that with you, it was looking at me as like my values and my stability and all the things that he lacked in his life.

He looked at it as like, okay, this is a girl, that she's a good girl and she's sweet and she's there for me and she's supportive. And I don't know, we just kind of, I don't know, we connected. We just had a really good time together.

Did you know, like, were you just sort of immediately like, I'm never leaving this person or did you, did you have you're looking around school and kind of going, well, I'm going to take that person at homecoming and that person to prom or this, like, did you have a community that where it was sort of normal to get together with somebody like this and stay forever? Do you have peers that are in the same situation, like how does that play for you?

Yeah, I think we just knew I think it's new. Yeah. We just knew there were no there wasn't anyone around us that was doing the same thing. Okay. Just kind of like we're like, okay, we're making this work.

All right. This is going to sound crazy, but even in a young age, like I, I imagine me spending the rest of my life with her. And that sounds crazy because we have kids this age now, and I can't imagine making that.

That's what I want to know about. Yeah, yeah.

Like I can't imagine making that kind of decision, like like our daughter meeting a boy at school, but.

She's about to be the age that we met and wild to think about that.

But of course, you didn't come home from a school saying, mom, I met the boy. I'm going to spend the next 35 years with. You just met a boy and you were like, into the boy. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think that we shared, I guess, a common value, that we're both extremely loyal people, and we wanted to have a family, and we wanted to have a place we called our own. Even living, you know, at mom and dad's house, like, we wanted to have our own thing, our relationship. And we took it very seriously from the start. And we never wavered from that. And it's been that way the entire tire relationship. Like after high school, we moved to I went to college not far from there, and there was never a question like she was coming with me. She was almost transferred to Houston for work. And it was like, well, I guess that's what we're doing. Then it was just it was always me and her, and we never looked at it any other way, like we were just inseparable. We were that couple.

Yeah, we were annoying.

I've been debating this for the last couple of days. And you, you be really good people. To help me understand this, I went and saw the movie The Bride. So it's about the bride of Frankenstein, and you know, this woman is in it. Her name is Jessie Buckley, and she was also in Hamnet, as you happen to see either one of these movies. Anyway, Jessie Buckley is a force of nature. She's just like this amazing actress. I was so undone by both those performances. But there's there's a Bonnie the The Bride is like a Bonnie and Bonnie and Clyde kind of movie. And, you know, it's just two monsters, Frankenstein. And they're literally were made for each other. But there's a scene about three quarters of the way through the movie where they're in this ballroom and all hell is about to break loose.

There's this like, chaos, and, you know, it's coming. And they look at each other across the room, and I'm like, those two love each other. I didn't know if it was the characters or the actors. I didn't, but I was like, I was like, these two people are absolutely in love. And I was like, why did I give them that? Why did they? Why do they? And then it's because it was totally them against the world. I mean, literally it was like two of us against the world. But then I started to have this question about, is that what you need? Is that what you need for a healthy relationship? Is that what has to happen for it to thrive?

And then can you do that with kids? Can you look across the ballroom and go, no matter what happens in the next five minutes, which was going to be chaotic, it's you and me. And so I've been in this open debate about can you be you and me against the world, while you also have to raise children and mine is empty. I'm empty nesting in like a week. So I'm kind of like, maybe I've access. Anyway, this is what I want to poke your brains about a little bit is what do you think about that, given what you just said, like you knew it was us and it's two of us, and we're that. We're the thing. Do you resonate with that? You and me, against the world peace. And then how do your kids factor into that.

Man, that's a good question because I remember when we started having kids, it was one of the most complicated things that we ever went through because we had been together for ten years, and it was literally us against the world for a long period of time. So then the kids came into play and it's like, oh, now we've got to maneuver this. Like our relationship was always number one. Now I've got to like, get these kids involved and try to figure out how we can still be against the world with the kids. And it took some time, I think, that there was like a gray area that we had to figure out where. It's like, I can do both. I can do two things at once.

And that was just years of practice and figuring out like, we've got this and we're going to figure it out because, yeah, we put our relationship first, but our kids are very important to they come first as well. We kind of do. We do both. But I do think it's really complicated for a lot of people to get to that point.

Yeah. Like our like every couples got a song or I don't know if ever I shouldn't say every a lot of couples have songs. Ours is Jefferson Starship. Nothing's going to stop us now. Okay. And there's a line in that song that if this world runs out of lovers, we'll still have each other. Okay. That was that's like kind of our our battle cry. Like, we always looked at each other and said, it's me and you to the wheels fall off. That's what we named our podcast app was that song. And that just it's literally tattooed on my ribs, like it's it's always been us, you know? And then when the kids were born, man, the dynamic does change in a marriage. But I think we were always really firm on our marriage has to exist and thrive in order for our children to thrive as well.

Okay. I felt like just as a couple, we felt like one of the values we wanted to instill in the kids was like family. To have that, that really stable base. I didn't have that growing up. She came from a family of divorce, but whose parents did an amazing job at co-parenting and an incredible job. Better than most, I would say. But I came from a really fractured situation and so like, home just felt it was something we both believed in. And so when the kids were born, there is this strange period where you're figuring out, because we're both humans for the first time, like we're new parents, like we have to figure out what this is like and how, like, what is a relationship look like after kids?

And when you have no time really for each other. And we figured it out, I think we we have always made time for one another. And you don't. It changes though, like where it used to be, you know, you're out and doing stuff and going to bars and hanging out. Now it's these like really intimate conversations before bedtime for about how your day went or what's new with you and your life. And we've always done that. Like we've always stayed incredibly connected, regardless of what's happening around us.

Yeah, and I've always had the mentality that my kids, our kids are going to be gone one day and it will just be us. Like even before we had kids, I was like, we're going to we have to figure out a way that this is temporary with the kids when they're gone. We just have each other, so we need to make sure that we have our that our relationship is still thriving in between those stages because when they're gone. If we put everything into them, what's left? It's going to be really hard for us to ignite that fire again. I feel like we've tried to keep that balance.

Yeah, that's definitely where we're at right now, like trying to figure out how to. But you know, we I have couples in my client practice that come in and they're about to empty nest. And sort of the sound of that for them is like, well what are we going to do now? And I'm like, that's actually the right question. It's exactly the right question. But you should be like, well, what are we going to do now? Now what are we going to do? Like are we going to, you know, so we're we're actually just trying out a whole bunch of stuff, just figuring out like, what are we like, what are we. What are we going to work on? We've adopted a local softball team. So now we like just we don't we don't know anybody. I mean, we've gotten to know these girls, but we just go to we got their schedule and we go to the softball games all the time.

I think it's awesome. That's awesome. Like, we've got plans of getting an RV and looking at national parks and like, we'll work from it. And yeah, we've always wanted to do that.

Gain new hobbies, do stuff together.

We'll figure something out. Like we've already been through. We've lived like three lives together, so we're looking forward to the next chapter to.

Tell me about that. That's an interesting theory, this idea that we've lived three lives together. What is that mean to you? Actually, let me pause for a second and say this page. If I had asked you blind cold asked you what your family's song was, would you have gotten the right answer.

Like our song together? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. You would have just nailed it. Like we know this. We have a song. What else do you have? Like a do you have like a TV show? Do you have a color? Do you have a favorite letter? Like what's the what else is on the list of This Is Our Thing?

Well, his favorite number is three. My favorite number is four. So whenever we do things or see things, we'll see 34 and like, oh that's great. Or 43, that's great. That's just something that we connect with.

Our favorite numbers have combined, that's for sure.

Yes okay.

Man there's probably some. But on the spot I can't think of them. That's okay. Yeah. No doubt like it's 25 years in the making and like where we were always like that cheesy couple. It's like, yeah, we're together. Like, we annoyed the hell of our friends in high school. Probably even after that. It's like there was never any question, like, if I was around, she was going to be around and vice versa.

Okay, okay. You've lived three different lives together, I love that. That sounds like a like a clear story. What is what are your three lives or how do you label them?

So whenever we met we were just kids. Like truly just kids. You're really naive and you're figuring out how relationships work and how to coexist with another person in your life. And, you know, teenagers, I think I think people, children in general, by nature, just selfish. We don't know better. We don't know what it's like to serve and give and to be selfless. And so we went through that time period. It's just adolescence. And then something occurred in my mid 20s. So I had an injury when I was a kid, and I was introduced to prescription opioids, and I became addicted to opioids, sent me out on ten years of addiction, like a bad addiction. And so the second chapter of our life is kind of marked by that time period where we're having young children and we're trying to figure things out.

And like, I always just thought there'd be some event that occurred in our lives that would, like, make me grow out of it, like I was. How the character arc worked is that you? You you discover you have an issue and then you beat it and then you live happily ever after. And so I always thought that, like when I graduated from college, I would just snap out of it. When we got married, I would snap out of it when the kids were born, I would snap out of it. But all these events came and went and nothing was changing.

And got worse.

Yeah, it got worse. Like addiction tends to be progressive in nature. And so it was getting worse over time, not better. And I would come home like stumbling drunk or messed up on stuff. And I would just look at her and I could see the disappointment in her eyes. And I would tell her, like, I promise you, one day I'll be a good man. Stay with me. I promise you I'll figure this out. And so there was this chapter of our lives that was really, really lonely, where we had always been incredibly close. And then we started to kind of we started to kind of fall apart from one another. And it wasn't because she had moved. I was moving. And her response to me moving away was to do the right thing and protect ourselves and protect our daughter.

So she kind of had to detach lovingly from the chaos of me in that time period. I got it together when I, the day before my 27th birthday, checked into treatment, celebrate 13 years of sobriety next month. But the last 13 years of our lives have really been marked by what it's like to really know each other and truly know each other. Like there are couples who have been through all kinds of incredibly difficult things. You loss of a child addiction, you know, maybe it's a second relationship or something like that. And it's always in those moments that you really get to know one another. And so through this, I think that we're stronger than like I would put us if there was a competition for greatest marriage on the planet, I would put us in that competition and expect to win that hands down.

Like, not even close. Okay. In order to get to this point, you you really, really have to know one another. And there are no secrets. Like, there's not a single secret on the table. And that's what our relationships been this last, you know, decade or so is really, really getting to know one another. And me truly understanding her experience, what that was like with me, obviously, she's she's learned what I, what I dealt with is as well. But then once you have this smoldering pile of ashes, it's like what's build something on top of it. And so that's what we've done here for the last decade, is build that, and now we share it with other people. We talk about, you know, our experience on our own podcast. Not not a shameless plug here, but we've got a show and that's what we do called tilt Fall Off and we recount those experiences.

A lot of people have been through this and the show is really about her experience, not mine. Yeah, so it's about what spouses go through on the other side of this where it's incredibly lonely, like there are tons and tons and tons of resources for people that have dealt with what I dealt with. For families, not as much. There's not nearly as much, and there's not a lot of voices out there that are giving them the support from a place that someone truly understands it. And so, yeah, Paige, without really wanting to, is become of become their voice, you know?

Yeah. Well I'm glad I mean, it's a good transition. I that was going to be my next question is Paige. Like what? How did you make sense of all that? How do you make sense of those three areas. Not not strictly as the the foil or the reflection of match experience, but like if what was your experience of the three chapters?

Yeah. So the first chapter would be, like you said, we were young, naive, having fun, all the things. But there were a lot of red flags in there with his situation and his family dynamics. Yes, he had an injury, but he also comes from a line of addiction and alcoholics and very, very dysfunctional situations dynamics. So I picked up on that in the first chapter of our lives. But I was like, oh, is it really that bad? You know, I thought, oh, okay, this is not that bad. Let's just go through this.

Well, and did you say a little bit earlier that it was actually kind of novel or refreshing? It wasn't just not that bad. It actually was kind of intriguing and interesting because it was juxtaposed to your own lived experience.

Absolutely. Yes. It was like, oh, this is like exciting. This is dangerous. This is fun. This is something I want to, you know, look into. But I didn't know anything about addiction or alcoholism or anything like that. I was just like, okay, this is dysfunctional. And I knew it in my gut it was. But it was still like, okay, this is still exciting. So I'm going to go, we're going to go with this and see what happens. But then it just started getting worse and worse and worse. And he would I found out that he was lying a lot and he was spending all of our money. Like there was a lot of financial abuse that went along with that. And I was.

We're into chapter two now.

Yes. This is chapter two.

Yeah.

So this is where it started to get a little rough.

For you. And like, how did you do? How did you do that? How do you make sense of being inside your skin in that time.

While I was in it, I, it's really hard to even kind of go back in time sometimes because I don't. I try to forget about it sometimes, you know, it was pretty. It was there was some there was it was traumatic. It was traumatic. It was not a really fun experience. I just kind of was in survival mode most of the time and in robot mode and just kind of going with the, the, the flow of what was going on. And honestly, he was a secret addict, so I didn't know that it was the drugs. I didn't know that he was actually an addict. I thought he was an asshole. I mean, just being real. I thought he was a jerk. Yeah. And I thought I was into deep at that point to where, you know, I couldn't I didn't have any options, really. So I just continued going.

Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, it's, you know, I spent a lot of time in conversations like this with people and, you know, and people sort of face the reality, say, of the addiction. You know, you have these questions that pop up and a lot of people do. And I want to hear about how you manage it. But one of you know, you have questions like, well, how often and where and how much money and what and were you? But the question you really have is, have I been crazy? You mean I'm not the crazy one? Like, I bet you felt crazy about knowing why you felt crazy. And then what was it like to kind of go, oh. Maybe I maybe my intuition was real. Like, how did you make peace with that?

That took years. Okay. So that that basically happened in our third chapter, even way after the sobriety and recovery. It was a few years after that. I actually let's see, he got sober and then four years afterwards I started having really bad panic attacks, anxiety, depression. I was just spiraling and my anger was just so intense, and I realized that I was holding in a whole bunch of emotions and things like that. And when I finally felt safe in his recovery, it finally came out. And then we started to realize, okay, well, you lied to me for a long period of time. So that affected my mental health. You would gaslight me. You would tell me I'm crazy all the time. You would say that you're too sensitive or you're this and you're that.

And I was like, I felt crazy for years. While he was an active addiction, I felt like I was the one who was causing problems because that's what he would do. He would manipulate. He would say, no, you know, you're crazy. Everything will be okay. It's fine. I'm just having a rough time or, you know, and it makes your mind just going in circles and it makes it spin. So when I finally realized that I wasn't crazy, it took a long time to actually accept it and be like, okay, I he it took him to have accountability for me to be okay with it. He had to hold himself accountable and say, I'm sorry I did this to you. I know that I did this to you. I know this impacted you. I'm going to do better. And he shows up with his actions every day by showing me that he is going to be the man that he promised to be.

Yeah. It's interesting because I you'll you'll you guys have both have perspective on this, which is people whether it's an affair or an addiction or something like this. Sometimes I'll say, when does the alcoholic get credit for not drinking? Like, is it one day at a time? Is it when they get their 30 day chip? Is it a year? Do you, do you either of you have in your own kind of mind or heart an answer to that question? Like when does the addict get a get credit for for being clean? How how have you come to that over the last 13 years?

That's an interesting question. When do they get credit? You know, I kind of split this into two different worlds. So let's first world, we'll talk about the recovery world. And then you have the spouses experience. And I think in the recovery world anyone that's putting forth effort deserves some kind of credit. And so if I'm sitting there with someone who's struggling on day one, I will let them know that one day sober is a huge deal. Yeah, but it's okay if your wife doesn't feel that way, right? I think for a family it's completely different. And so this is this is kind of like the differences in support, being someone in recovery and being a recovery advocate and always being there for people who are still struggling. It's a different conversation I have with them than I would a spouse.

Right. So I think for for me and even spouse can be proud of you, that you're that you're doing well, that you're doing better. But it's really hard to hold space for that when you're completely broken on the inside. And so I think for us, like, correct me if I'm wrong here, page, but I feel like credit probably like true credit felt, I don't know what was that a decade in probably yes. Like probably a decade to like it was really like now the dust has settled and we've processed every last piece of this thing and I feel safe again. I feel like we're back on, on even ground. But from an addiction standpoint, anyone who's putting forth effort is doing something that's really beneficial. But from a family standpoint, that could take time.

I don't think it's one for one, right? Is it for for every year that you screwed up? It takes a year? I don't know, it just kind of seemed to work that way with us. Correct? Yeah. Could just be a complete coincidence, but it takes quite some time, I think.

Interesting. Yeah, I because I'm a word nerd and I play around this stuff. I think the answer that I usually provide people is it depends on the credit giver, which is exactly what you just said. Like if it's your sobriety buddy and you got one day, you're like, hey, more power to you. But when it's the partner, when it's the spouse, you get credit. When in this case, her body starts to relax or communicate and say, okay, now I feel here. So that's a it's a it's just part of the gig sometimes where you have to go, well it's been a year. Why aren't you over this. And sometimes answer is like because I'm not exactly because I, because my body's not ready or because of my I don't have this other thing.

So you you were able to say page you went. Yep a decade. Do you, do you have a story or a moment where you were like, today is the day or this is the era? Like, how do you how do you look at the decade mark and go, yep, it's shifted about here for about this reason.

Yeah, I think it just came out in layers. It's not really a one thing that happened. It's when we started do I guess when we started doing the podcast is when things really started to open up, because we were both being very vulnerable and talking. We used it as a space of, of, of just therapy for ourselves in a way, you know, like we would have really open, vulnerable conversations. So it got to where he was actually taking legit accountability of, yeah, I screwed up. Yeah. I was, you know, emotionally abusive. You know, I lied to you. I really did all these things. I actually have a video of when we were talking with a couple and I was like, he was saying these things to me, and it really it hit me.

It did. It hit me. I was like, wow, okay, so I'm not crazy. Wow. Okay, this this really did happen. I was minimizing things. This really he really did harm me. But the fact that he continued to take the accountability and show up every day and became the dad that my kids deserve and the partner that I deserve, like it just started to get better and better over time, and I actually felt safe with having conversations with him about how I'm feeling and what's going on, because there was a time period where I didn't feel like I could say anything to him without him saying, you know, you're too sensitive or whatnot, and he just

wasn't hearing me. So it was really just the accountability piece and the action that was backing up those words. So this was probably three years ago, which was ten years into his sobriety to where it just opened up that extra layer that was needed to really push our relationship forward further.

Yeah. I think what's really cool about hearing you guys talk is that you're aware of and inside of this pattern, that is actually pretty common. People, people, you know, struggle in these in healthy systems for a while. Somebody gets healthy. And the person who was healthy before finally has permission to kind of let, let their guard down. And, you know, unfortunately, it sometimes it results in panic attacks or, you know, their own, their own crises that they create or that they fall into.

And it's a shame that you don't just I don't want to say it's a shame, but it's it's it's too bad that the system doesn't allow itself to heal faster. We can't. I guess we can't rush. Healing, I suppose, is the is the is the thing that we're all learning. How did you how have you leveraged now kind of this new space that you live in where you're you've got three years of, let's say, like true sobriety, meaning the marriage is on its is in its recovery phase. Like how do you how are you leveraging tonight. What is that about for you? What are you what are you doing? What are you looking forward to? How does how do you take advantage now of this sort of newfound freedom?

I was thinking about this the other day. I, I think I read some study. I don't remember who did it, but to to be truly happy in a relationship is, is to feel known by somebody, right? Not knowing someone, but to feel known. And for the longest time in our relationship, I felt known. But I think if you had to pull her and ask her, did you feel known? The answer would be no. No, she did right. It was. Everything was kind of about me. Now, I, I could safely say that we both feel known by the other. And so we're operating on what I think is even ground for the first time, like maybe ever, but the last several years and it almost feels like a totally new relationship.

I feel like it's it's novel again and it's fun again, and I feel like I've only touched the edges of, like, really getting to know her. And there's more to discover every time I turn around, even 25 years later, it's like there's more there that I haven't uncovered. I haven't really known because when someone feels safe, you get a different version of them than you do. This person who's been protected and guarded and holding things back. And so it's almost like a different personality. And it's really, really fun to, to to learn and get to know her. That's that's my take on it. Yeah.

I agree with that. It was always about you. And now it's more of. Like even ground. And sometimes it's weird because I'm like, okay, don't, don't I don't want to be this inner of attention of anything, like, why are you doing that? But we really do. We, we come together really well when it comes to this. I just don't I don't know, I just think that it's. Yeah. What you said, right?

Yeah. Like solving problems and things like that. Now it's completely different than it was before. There is a mutual respect there. I guess you could say simplest way to put there's just a mutual respect there that there wasn't before. I think in a lot of relationships you'll have a struggle of power in some way, right, where you've got two different egos kind of fighting over ground at times. You know, I would like to see things happen this way or that way. I'd like this way or that way. And I think that now we are truly two people carrying a chain in the same direction, like pulling this thing.

You've really learned how to validate. And that's been extremely important in our relationship, because I've always been very validating and very supportive and like, I have a lot of patience for for him. Like we don't tear each other down very much at all. But him validating my experiences took a long time because I think, you know, it was the ego talking where he didn't want me to like poke the bear or whatnot, but you would validate the way that I feel because it's like, if you validate me, I'm able to get through that feeling a little bit easier than if you fight me on that feeling.

If you're telling me that I'm, I'm anxious or something or whatnot, or you need to get over it, it's like you're not helping me there. The past few years, it's been more of like, I'm going to hold space for you, and I really care about what you're feeling and what you're going through, and I'm just I'm going to be there for you. And that's been the most beneficial thing that we've dealt with the past few years.

Paige, what have you had to learn how to do?

Nothing. No. I'm just kidding. Tolerate, tolerate.

Matt. Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, I've just I've really had to learn how to since since all of my things came out, you know, all of my emotions came out in my panic and all that stuff. I've had to learn how to manage that stuff. I've had to learn how to let go of some things and learn how to go with the flow on a lot of things and not. Like, hold myself too much, you know, like hold too tightly on things. So I've really learned how to do that within our relationship. Do you agree with that?

Yeah. No, no, I do like an interesting dynamic and I don't know what came first. Chicken or the Ikea. I don't know if it's a personality trait or if this is a result of all of those years of being, you know, burdened with me. But it's interesting, like coming out of addiction. I talked to a lot of guys in recovery who kind of go through this as well. It's like, at what point is the spouse responsible for showing up differently or being able to take criticism or being challenged in a relationship because for so long, like part of my recovery was like, I need to squash my ego as small as I can get it, where I'm just a functioning person, I need to be able to accept feedback and criticism and move forward.

It's really difficult, I think, for a spouse who's had to watch this person, like sometimes like slobbering on the floor, give you feedback about how you're showing up. And that's been that's been kind of a fun behind the scenes thing for us where like, like now that I do have a seat at the table, like I can bring up like a, like a real issue. It's like, hey, the way that you talk to me like that hurt. Like when when you say things like this and she'll look at me like, how dare you? At the same time, she's like, well, damn it, like we're on evil. Like, okay, yeah. You're right. No, you're right. And that's it's been a tough thing, I think.

Yeah. And we'll complain about it or I'll like, say something that's I'll complain about it in the beginning. But then we always eventually get down to the root of it and we'll actually have a conversation. But that's definitely something that I've had to work on.

Yeah, I think that's probably about it. But like, page is always like she's she's been the better of us. Like there's no way to like, say that any way. Like she's always been in the lead, emotionally developed like everything. Like I've always been kind of chasing her. And then like once you catch up, it's like you can you're running the race together and you can you can correct one another at times. And I think that we've both done a pretty good job at staying curious with one another. If someone's feeling a certain way, like be curious about that emotion, be curious about what they're saying, and we show up with, I think both of us show up with an intention to be the best versions of ourselves, for each other and for our family.

That's been, I think, something that's really transitioned here in the last few years where it was always me trying to catch up, and now it's both of us kind of together, and it's awesome. I feel like you have a real partner in crime, you know?

Yeah, that's really cool. Tell me briefly, how are your kids? Like, what do they know about your story? Are they connected to the to the whole thing? Do they kind of know only the age appropriate parts? Like what is their role in this, like recovery, family recovery process?

They know it all pretty much. It's always it's been age appropriate as they've gotten older. But now that they're, you know, 11 and 13, they know what we do. They know what we've done. They know that it's part of their makeup that it could possibly, you know, happen to them. We're very open about that. But we're also big on teaching them boundaries and letting them know that addiction isn't an excuse for how somebody treats you. Look at behaviors. It's not because we don't use the disease factor in our home. We like it to be more surface level of like, if somebody is treating you poorly, it doesn't matter what they've gone through. They need to hold accountability and you don't have to tolerate that. So we use it as a lot of a lot of lot of lessons surrounding it in our family.

Yeah that's cool.

So they know. They know.

Yeah. It's been a good teaching tool. I think you we look at things through the lens of addiction. But a lot of those lessons are universal, you know. Sure.

Well, and you know, the other reason I think it's so important is that those a lot of us who have these stories, as you said, about Matt's family, like there's a history, there's like a history of addiction and history of whatever, like passed down, passed down, passed down. And, you know, a lot of the work of recovery is literally stopping the passing down, you know, like just it kind of ends here. Like, this is going to be the place that it stops. And you can't do anything about hereditary. But you certainly could do something about responsiveness and responsibility, which I think is sounds like you're putting words and language into the mouth of your kids. And that's that's the beginning for sure.

Yeah.

Like the environment matters.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, nature loves the gun, but the environment pulls the trigger, right? And even if they find themselves in a situation where they get stuck. One thing that I would love for them to know is that there is a way out, and my own dad knows what that looks like, and so they have a place to go to find out what a solution could look like for them.

Yeah, I love that. Cool. So tell me a little bit more about Tell the Wheels Fall Off or how people can find you, how they can learn more about your story if they want to connect with you, or if they're particularly if they're grappling with addiction and recovery in their own world.

Yeah. So the show started as a thinly veiled, I think, kind of autobiography of just our lives. Like we started a podcast because I've always been a podcast nerd and I've always wanted to start a podcast, and I couldn't think of someone better to start it with them. But my best friend, who's also incredibly introverted and so we said.

That, did not want to start a podcast. I still struggle with it. Yeah. We really.

We sat there for like this first several episodes, I probably talked for 90% of them, and it was just.

We wanted to teach life skills. That was.

It was really just life lessons. It was about marriage and like what it's like growing up together. And we thought, like, our friends and family would listen. Maybe, you know, it was really just for us. And we did an episode or two about.

There was one about you in your story, and.

Then.

The next one was me and my story.

And then it went nuts.

Yeah.

A clip went like kind of viral and, well, we kind of looked at each other and I was like, I think people need help here, you know, like you have a ton of knowledge about this. And so we started to talk about it more and more and more, and the show just took off. And there's this incredibly underserved community of people out there, spouses and partners of people who struggle with the substance or behavioral addictions, and they don't have a lot of resources. And so our show became for I think a lot of them are lifeline. And so we we continue recording that. And in doing that, it's it's a beautifully selfish thing because we get so much out of it. But they do too. So it's like we're both winning because of it. And yeah, it's been amazing. We, we, we built a program alongside a licensed therapist to kind of give people the rundown on pages, experience what that was like getting through it.

And so we we have that, we have the show and we try to offer as many free resources for people as possible. We've got a free Facebook community for listeners of the show, and so we're doing three episodes a week. But that's hectic, as you.

Know, three episodes a week. That's insane.

Yeah. So as a podcast, you get that. And so we're in this season of life where we've got our daughters in competitive dance. She's really talented and like they're all over the place with that. And then my son's in competitive baseball and coaching the team. So there's that. And then they got school and band and choir, and then we've got a marriage and we've got this show. And so every so often we'll have to release like an old one. But we're over 300 episodes in now and it's, it's, it's helping a ton of people.

Yeah. We we try to help spouses and partners find their voice again, because when you've been in these situations, you feel like you've completely lost yourself, you feel crazy, you feel like you can't go on like it, really. It's a it's a huge struggle. And we just offer that space for people to feel validated. And then we educate them, we empower them and then help them on their own recovery through our program and our podcast. But it's just been it's been incredible to have this space for these people because like Matt said earlier, there's so much for the addict. There's so many resources out there. There's so many, so many places to go. And we just realized, wow, we need a space for spouses. And it's challenging sometimes because it's hard to go back in time and have to discuss these types of things.

However, it's been very enriching for me to see others be able to find their voice again and actually figure out what they want out of life and love themselves again. And and it even if they don't stay in their relationship, it's okay. Like we're still going to love them through that as well. Yeah, yeah.

It's difficult, I think, like I've been privileged to be part of the community of this show. And I say that because I would say that probably 80% of our, our listeners are female. And so I'm privy to conversations that I think a lot of guys aren't privy to being trusted by them to be part of the community and everything else. And most of them come in with questions that there are no answers to. You know, it's like I'm in this really tough situation. What can I do? And there's no simple answer for that. And they're usually given one of two answers. It's, what, are you dumb? Just leave or it's endlessly tolerate. And those are the only two extremes of answers that they're given.

And there's more nuanced than that. Like, people generally aren't going to make decisions that are life changing until they feel safe enough to do so and they feel like they've turned over every stone. And so we don't we're not licensed therapists, like, we don't claim to know all the answers, but we will love people through that process, point them in the right direction to get those, those, those questions answered.

But a lot of it is just having support along the way while they learn for themselves. And so we get different outcomes. Some people, they get our outcome and, you know, they get your outcome. And it's like they figured this thing out together. Many others, though, get a different outcome that no one's ever really offered them, which is that, you know, sometimes the safest thing is knowing when to quit, the safest thing for your children, the safest thing for you, and lovingly step away from that relationship. And that's there's a way to say that, and there's a way not to say that. And I think we've done a pretty good job at saying that the right way, in a loving way. It's tough. It's like, how do you tell someone that day one you don't, you just love them for a while.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Well tell the wheels fall off. Thank you so much. You guys are so fun to talk to you and hear more about your story. And just to recognize, I think, again, like, for me, people and, you know, this people sometimes feel like they're the only ones that nobody knows this but me. We're the only ones dealing with this, and it's just not real. You know, I think the first thing you can, you learn. You're not alone. You have opportunities, you know, and that's that's a I'm glad that you're providing that resource for folks out in the world.

So yeah. And likewise, thanks for having us on. This has been on you.