Dr. Shannon Curry on Trust, Triangulation, and Telling the Truth

I was gonna tell you I just blew up my bathroom. I have a bathroom now attached to my office in our new office.

Wait, yeah, this is definitely going on the podcast. By the way, can I share the last two texts you sent me? Here's number one. I'll be right there waiting for my meds to kick in and keep me on track. All right, cool, cool, cool, cool. Then like 15 minutes later, so sorry, I just had tummy rumbles and I couldn't let you know I was running late because you know.

Please do. all genuinely true!

Okay, you doing all right?

been a rough day, but that's like a break for me. I realized I needed the meds because I was doing the emails and then didn't realize that my friend, one of my colleagues, John, was sitting next to me, who I love and would normally be so excited to see, but he arrived, sat next to me, was doing stuff, was even talking to me, I think, but I was doing emails. And then I finished the email, realized...

Yeah. Yeah.

⁓ he had, I recalled vaguely that he might've been just there and then yelled, Hey, cause he was out in the hallway. Just no impulse control sessions are happening. None. And then he came in and I, we both, know, he knows me very well. Andy's a they're all therapists therapist. So he said like, when was the last time you, do you need a snack? And do you your meds?

You have no impulse control. Yeah. What's that about for you? Is it straight up ADHD?

And then. Well, you know, yeah, I mean, that's I meet full criteria for that diagnosis. I did ⁓ neuropsychological testing, but you certainly don't have to. ⁓ And for me, it was a traditional kind of ⁓ high IQ and also very masking girl who loves school, wants to be nice, wants to perform well presentation. And so as long as I was given structured time to work on school, I loved school enough that Nobody would have ever suspected. Schools are essentially the front line for any type of learning disorders, developmental disorders, any sort of neurodivergence. The teachers see it. I was doing great in school, and I loved my teachers, and I was very well behaved early on. And it really wasn't until I was dealing with more long-term projects, and I wasn't interested in them. ⁓ So I wasn't, you know. I actually remember being very interested in one long-term project about outer space with Sally Ride, and I would live it. I mean, I remember that was the summer I realized, age eight, I could make smoothies with a bunch of sustenance in it and then not have to take a lot of breaks for meals and keep doing that project and not even change my pajamas. And that still happens to me today when I work on forensic reports. It will get dark out and I haven't turned on lights. ⁓ But if I'm not interested, God help everyone, because it's just not going to get done.

Yeah. Well, thanks for hanging out with me on Marriage Therapy Radio. hope you find this interesting.

I do find this interesting. I really do. I love doing this with you.

⁓ Well, uh, okay. Let's talk about you for just a second. Cause people are like, what does this lady have to share? You and I, uh, let's see. I first, I think I first learned about you on YouTube because you were doing, you were in the middle of, um, the trial with Donnie Depp and Amber Heard. And like, I was like, this lady is like taking the other lady, the other lawyer lady to like town. Like just like you're, this is the thing I remember you most saying. Do you remember, do you have any idea what I'm about to say?

No, I don't remember a lot of what happens when I'm on the stand.

You would, this is, you must have said that in the video I watched, you must said this 15 times. That's not quite right. That's, that's not quite right. And I was like, okay, anyway, and then I found out that you were training inside the Gottman method, which was kind of then we got to know each other and became friends and, and hang for a set, but you're

And then you saw a video come up again and you were like, who even is this serious person on the stand?

⁓ like, no, no, definitely. Like talking to you is really different than watching you work for sure. You know, because you, you're pro like you do like in that context, you were like, no, I'm here to deliver the thing. But what I wanted to say was you're not, ⁓ you don't lead with couples. Like you lead with forensics. Like you just said, is that your, is that the front edge of your, your gig?

Yeah. Thanks. No, I mean, if I'm in my office, I'd say it's kind of like people would think I lead with couples. Yeah, it really is. I truly do have a 50-50 practice. Yeah. I love couples work. I mean, I think you, first of all, you have such a brilliant analytical mind. Does the public know about your English background?

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fun. ⁓ shucks. I don't know. I mean, these days, ⁓ it's really hard to be a therapist, ⁓ as you know, because people will immediately Google you and find out like, where you went to college and what your family looks like and whether or not you're on YouTube and who you know, and I've been, I I graduated from college in what 1995. So it's a lot of just stuff that's out there. So people generally find out that I

Yeah.

right or that I, you know, of course am married or, you know, whatever, but it's weird when people come into my practice and they're like talking to me and they'll be like, yeah, I heard that Abby graduated from college last week. And I'm like, what are you talking? I was like, right. Yeah. My whole, my whole, my whole jam is on public display. That's it. Well, I don't mind telling them, but like, again, they sort of, they do their, people do their research, you know, like, and they should.

How interesting. yeah, I probably would have just told him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also I would definitely be curious about you if I were a client because you are very professional and focused on the other when you're talking, even when you're consulting with me. So I would, you have kind of that stoicism. I would definitely be looking you up.

geez. Yeah. Yeah, I have, ⁓ as you know, and as everybody knows, I've been leaning more into Terry Real's work, ⁓ Relational Life Therapy, and one of the key principles of his work is what's called separation from outcome.

Mm-hmm. You're gonna have to teach me all about this, because I know you're getting really into it and I haven't been very exposed to it. It sounds so interesting.

Yeah, mean, I'm happy to do that. If that comes up today organically, awesome. If not, that's fine. ⁓ But this idea of separation from outcome is I'm in here with my clients and I really don't care if their marriage survives. I also don't care if they fire me or not. Like I'm just like, okay, ⁓ well, let's see how they go.

Great. Radical acceptance. That is so important in couples work. I would say more than anything because you, excellent question, great segue. Because anybody who works with couples, I think can relate to this based on my own experiences and consultations is that, I mean, in a lot of ways it's two against one. I like couples work because you're really in the trenches. It's incredibly engaging. It feels like the stakes are very high.

Why do you hold that theory?

moving at a very quick pace, it can be intense and ⁓ you have to keep your wits about you. I relate it a lot to what I feel like on the stand where I am having to be incredibly precise. I'm having to watch. You cannot space out even for a second. God help you if you do. You are highly attuned to what's happening because you also have to keep things on the rails. ⁓ But there's something about that two and against one dynamic. ⁓

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I probably haven't explored this enough before trying to put it into words right now, but I definitely feel like I need to be on my toes and I guess the disappointment would be doubled if I fail them or I will tell you one real thing. I have felt many times like there's triangulation against me where I'll kind of be doing something that takes a lot of courage, right? You're addressing somebody something with somebody who may be ⁓ an intimidating person or somebody you really like, somebody you really respect and you're having to be pretty genuine and clear and create some boundaries and redirect them. That can feel scary. And there have been times where I've done that thinking the other partner should maybe like, I'm helping the other partner in a way. I'm articulating something that the other partner would normally be afraid to articulate, standing up for them in a sense.

See, this is what I wanted to ask you about because...

And then that other partner rather than ⁓ allow that, now they have this opportunity to just sort of ⁓ shine for the partner that's getting reprimanded. It's not a reprimand as you know, but the partner that's getting some feedback. So the partner that normally would have never raised this issue with their partner ⁓ or who has been just taking all the beatings and I am kind of standing up for them.

Sometimes it is.

That partner then rushes in to save the partner who's getting the feedback and getting their good graces. And then they start to almost like work it out amongst each other like they've always been able to work it out as if they've always just been in agreement about this issue. And they'll actually be sweeping it under the rug, so to speak, to make the peace. And then I become immediately the bad guy who, and it is this very felt dynamic where I'm like, well, fuck me. You're just sort of sitting on the sidelines, ⁓ feeling like they both are agreeing. It's giving them something to connect on. We don't need this therapist who's making us do this, you know, tedious program. I get what you're trying to say. And yeah. ⁓

Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you, cause when you said two to get two against one, I didn't know who the two was and who the one was. Like sometimes it's me and one partner against this second partner, right? There's sort of this two against one sort of dynamic that can emerge, but you, you have the feeling sometimes that like, you are there as the third relative to this other thing that's happening.

Yeah. right. Right, I get very resistant about being drawn into triangles as one of the twos. I think because of my own background and my own family of origin, I can smell that a mile away and I will almost do opposite action to make the boundary very clear. I'm so fearful of being seen as aligning with one partner versus the other and to some of those sensitivities that the other partner may be feeling. I really want both people, it's always... And this also goes to how, what a relief it would be to have this radical acceptance, this sense of like, whatever happens, happens. If they want to believe that I'm aligned with their partners, you know, and I'm not, that's not necessarily something I'm gonna be worried about. I, you know, it's just such a fast moving, delicate process. And there are so many moving pieces and so many dynamics that play two people instead of one person that you're watching for. transference and you know that person just got quiet and you're thinking about two people's family of origins and their sensitivities and vulnerabilities and every interaction you have could create some new permutation of a new dynamic and it's just a lot and to feel free of ⁓ that pressure to make it all work out especially when you kind of hand the torch to somebody you're getting to a nice moment and you're like so

Ahem.

How are you feeling right now? You you're thinking they're going to say, I feel really good. I've never heard that before from him. That meant so much to me. And they're just sort of like, well, I mean, I could have heard it before. Just, I hate when it ends on a bad note. ⁓ It's tough.

Mm-hmm. You just said something, I wanna make sure I heard you correctly. This idea that when they align together and maybe even turn on you, you suggest that sometimes that's sweeping it under the rug or is that a way that you actually, do you call that a win or do you even know or is it case dependent or what do you think?

Mm-hmm. No, when that's happened, when it's been cleared kind of triangulation, it wouldn't bother me if it were a win. If it's a win, F me. Like, I don't mind. You guys take it, get out of here. That's great. Genuinely, I would genuinely feel that way. What I'm speaking to more is when I'm not feeling really like there's buy-in, which is probably something I would address, but usually it's kind of a tense, high conflict moment. And it's...

Mm-hmm.

usually a problematic dynamic, right? So everything's great with us. We're fine. We don't really need this. ⁓ But then it does get tense. And then it's actually more the conflict avoidant type couples where I find it feel like this happens. And they're usually the ones that are actually trickier because they don't want to go there. And then obviously the nature of therapy and being the couples therapist is that you're bringing in exercises.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

One thing I love about the Gottman method is it is very structured, that you're aiming to stay away from flooding and criticism and all of that. But nonetheless, even structured exercises where people are just being asked to open up at all or acknowledge long routes or family of origin type issues or vulnerabilities, it doesn't feel great to a lot of private conflict avoidant people. They don't wanna go there. And so... ⁓

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

If an issue does arise and somebody is getting kind of heated, but then they're even denying that they're upset. But you can see the other partner is getting uncomfortable and you realize this is the dynamic they're living with all the time, right? This unspoken tension and somebody being upset and pretending they're not. ⁓ But then maybe the self-righteousness kind of bleeds into their everyday interactions. And the other partner is feeling like they're crazy because they're feeling it. But they're conflict avoidant too, so they don't want to bring it up. And then you do. The therapist does. And it's not pleasant for us either, guys. Like this still is an interpersonal interaction with people we care about. It's like having to confront a friend. It sucks. Really sucks. And so we do the heavy lifting and we bring up the thing that we're uncomfortable to bring up that nobody wants to. And then the other partner, you know, they're all uncomfortable with the conflict, but that one partner finally like... has a way to save the partner that they usually feel like is shutting them out, it's their in, they can be the hero. So yeah, I do feel like they're sweeping it under the rug, right? So that's, in a way it was the one chance that partner had to have their grievances kind of heard and understood, but they chose being the hero and being in their other, their partner's good graces over, you know.

Yeah, they have their yeah, I love that moment Mm-hmm.

There was a saying at my boarding school, the truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable. And ⁓ I love that. just, we have to accept some discomfort in our lives.

Hmm. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always love that moment when they have like their, they turn on me ⁓ because it's sort of like, well, I'm like, I'm like, you guys, what does that feel like? What does it feel like right now to be like bonded against some other thing in your relationship? Cause I don't, again, I don't take it personally. I don't get upset and I have enough maybe.

That's most succinct way to put it. Yeah, they turn on you. Will they acknowledge that that's what's happening?

Well, you show it to him, you hold up the mirror and you go, because this, mean, that's okay that you're mad at me. That's that you're mad at me together. I want to know what it feels like.

What if they just say like, see, this is my concern is those kind of conflict avoiding couples will be like, we're not mad at you. But it gives them something else to kind of be resentful about. It feels like it's now all my issues.

Yeah. Well, mean, look, to me, it's all a big puzzle and I let them know that at the beginning. I'm like, look, I'm just telling you, I'm just puzzling it out. Like you tell me you're not mad at me, but I'm sitting here and you're both on the same side with the same, you know, and I want to know what that feels like and whether it feels healthy and what's good about it. And I'll tell you what I think if you want to know, but, ⁓ it's a, it's, I think it's so much fun and I can't even.

That's beautiful.

I can't do individual therapy. do a fair bit of individual therapy too. Yeah. No, I can't stand it. It's so, I think, ⁓ primarily as an introvert, it's a real drain on my just energy. just get, I get anxious and I, kind of, I don't have a lot of confidence. Also, I have a, I have a, no, I know, I know. And, ⁓ I, I am the exact opposite. I was doing individual work as a, like a newbie right out of graduate school and

I do, yeah. How come? Mm-hmm. That's fascinating, because most people dread couples' words.

I didn't know I was, I didn't know I hated it until this guy brought his wife in. And when he brought his wife in, I was like, I like this. My body told me here's the other thing though. And I don't mind saying this. have a, I have an individual therapist who my love and she's, mean, I could never do what she does. Like her work with me is so good. And sometimes I try to channel her with my individual clients. Cause I'm like,

Now it's getting interesting. Yeah. You're a thrill seeker.

But I'm just pretending. I'm just a pretender to the throne because I, but I'm very clear that whatever she is doing that I benefit so much from, I can't replicate. But when I have a couple, I'm just like right in my little groove, which is really nice. That's part of it. Yeah. Yeah.

You're a natural teacher, right? And you did teach. So that, I almost feel like you get your classroom and your natural, you you're so genuine. Like that's one of those things. Like I could see you being one of those English professors that's like, come on, you're daring every, yeah, daring everybody to go deeper. And that's what I imagine your couple sessions like.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Captain, my captain, Yeah.

I don't know if you're giving yourself enough credit though for individual because you've even challenged me in a text before. ⁓

Yeah, well that's easy, because I get to write it.

Fascinating! That's really interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. I have a question that maybe listeners have, which is you, you copped to your awareness of what it's like for you to be in the therapy room because of your own story, your own family of origin story. what connected dots in a way that feels safe and appropriate for you.

I mean, I have a big family. I have three younger sisters, one older half sister. I think my therapist once said to me from back in my 20s, she was like, I have never met such a dysfunctional family that manages to have such like to pull it together for such special sort of connections. Like there are times that dysfunction is weirdly off limits with my family. Like, we're gonna do our holiday and nobody better fuck this up. Like, nobody gets to be drama, nobody gets to be mean to anybody. It's sort of like this really weird dysfunctional value system. And there are a couple things that we've all just luckily been in agreement on. That, you know, holidays are kind of off limits, birthdays are very special in my family, nobody gets to rag on anybody on their birthdays, and we show up.

Hmm.

we actually show up all in our best behavior and really like show love. ⁓ My family is Irish Italian. My mother's side is all from Sicily. And so there's a lot of, know, I mean, look, I feel like I can say this because I am Sicilian. Like Sicilians are crazy. There is, my mother refused to date other Sicilians. She felt like the bloodline was too thick and too mentally unstable, genuinely. ⁓ But I also, there was just, So in a big family, and I challenge any really big family to prove this wrong. In a big family, I feel like there are so many people in need of love and enrichment and attention and nurturance, and they're just not gonna get it. They're not gonna get it because you've got two adults, and if it's not an insanely wealthy family, you've got two working adults, and then, you know. We know the research just through the government method of like the first year with a new baby is gonna be the most miserable year of a marriage in general. And now you've got two people having babies all the time and the stress just gets more and more exponential. And so you've got two stressed out parents, four young children needing attention. And in my experience, how this relates to the triangulation and my sensitivity to that in couples dynamics is that There was triangulation and whatever you would call like a quadruple-ation and even like six, seven in every way possible because everybody's backbiting each other to try to get their needs met, get attention. And I have seen every manipulative way a person can try to get their needs met occur. so I've got a radar for it.

Mm. Yeah. So when that starts to happen in your, front of you in your practice, you're like, okay, I can see not that this is like a genuine effort perhaps, but it is a manipulation.

Mm-hmm. It's a coping mechanism. It's a way, I always think of it like this. I think one of the things that helps me have compassion for it, and maybe sometimes the reason I don't call it out right away, is because a lot of times I feel like when somebody is doing, is trying to get their needs met in a way that is indirect, maybe a little passive aggressive, or maybe a little bit manipulative, or taking advantage of somebody else's vulnerability, right? ⁓ I think that person,

Hmm. Hmm.

grew up in some sort an environment where it was not safe enough for them to just ask for what they needed, to just be sad. They couldn't trust that if they cried, they would be comforted. They couldn't trust that if, ⁓ you know, they were bummed out, anybody would notice. And then they probably ended up in some sort of marriage dynamic where it's pretty similar. So the second there's an opportunity to get connection,

Hmm.

or to get praise or some sort of reinforcement that you're a good enough partner, get your partner to notice you, might have to be at even your own expense where it doesn't, you you don't even take advantage of the moment your therapist finally provided for you where you're being vindicated or validated. Instead, it's more for you, what you see as an opportunity to save your partner who's been bullying you the whole time, but now you can be like their savior for a minute. and they're gonna be really nice to you all day. And you're gonna feel connected to them, at least in the short term. You're aligned and hating your therapist.

Hey, this is another area that I'm not that good at, but it seems like you're like pretty keen to is I don't, I think I spent a lot more time in the present and even maybe even in the future than I do in the past. Like this sort of family of origin thing is a learning edge or a growth edge for me because I, I have spent plenty of time in my life going, no, no, no, no, no, it's fine. Like my story is my story. doesn't affect my, and it like, I get that that's baloney, but let's say you, let's say you are working.

But there's a grit component to that that I love, that I think you and I are both really aligned on. Like, let's cut the bullshit. Grit, sort of like let's have a backbone. We don't get to rely, we don't get to indulge in the past, but sometimes understanding it can help us to identify problems in the ways we act. Can help me empathize with others. But I'm sorry, I interrupted, keep going.

A grit? Grit? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, so my question is, let's say you're working with this couple and you see what you see and you see that, hey, I have a suspicion because of this passive aggression that you didn't get what you needed as a kid. like that's, okay, named. So what, now where do you go when you have labeled that and you've made it apparent? Because obviously I can't go back or, okay.

So I probably wouldn't do, here's what I would probably do. It's interesting how I would do it because it is the antithesis of how I normally operate as someone with ADD and just wanting to get right to the, you know, I interrupted you just a second ago. like, I think I know where you're going with this. Let's say it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

But in therapy, although there's plenty of that, if I see that something might be really sensitive for somebody or vulnerable, or more likely they're not ready to necessarily even see this yet, they might not get this if I throw it at them. Also, I'm thinking I kind of want them to come to this on their own. How can I lead them there? I just, think that would be more meaningful. So. What I would probably have said is, would actually, I love the Gottman method intervention, after math of a regrettable incident, because of that one part where after you've identified all the hurt feelings that you've felt in some argument or disagreement with your partner, you're asked to rewind that video in your mind and land on a time in your background where you felt a very similar set of emotions.

Sure. Mm-hmm.

I feel like that is such a powerful exercise and then you share that with your partner. And in sharing that with your partner, they can never now unknow this. They'll never now see you kind of behaving in this way, feeling, you know, very activated, maybe in their eyes, unreasonable about something without knowing where that's coming from, without seeing that little kid who was ignored or criticized or felt invisible or cried and nobody even noticed for days. ⁓

You

It's that branch you grow with your partner. So I think I really love those opportunities if I'm working with a couple. And what I probably would have said was, if I'd had more time, all those crap usually happens like right out the door, right? But usually I'll probably say something like, what are you feeling right now? And this is tough. It gets tedious, right? They'll go back to the default, like angry, frustrated, or something that's not what you know a genuine feeling is. They're not going there. Give them the handout again. What do you feel right now? Scratch out frustrated. Let's go deeper. They might say like relief, you know, if they've just jumped in to, I'm feeling really connected. I'm feeling like we don't need you anymore. What do you think? And I might actually ask them to go back. Like think of a time when you felt this kind of relief in a similar type dynamic. What were you feeling right before? You were feeling stressed. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Hopeless it maybe felt like this conversation wasn't going anywhere Afraid that you were in trouble that he was mad at you. Okay, so let's when did that happen before? ⁓ I mean that was every night at dinner with my dad He was always in a bad mood and I always felt like there was nothing I could do to really make it right It kind of seemed like he was pissed off at everyone. Okay, and you just said you felt relief when you did that Do you ever have a dynamic like that? At the table, you ever do anything to try to get relief with your dad? yeah, like sometimes I would literally make him the cornbread he likes, because I knew he was going to be in a bad mood. And if I offered that when he was in a bad mood at the table, sometimes it would break it. Okay, so you would offer him that cornbread. Was this cornbread? Something like that. In an ideal scenario. But there are so many caveats and so many things that can delay getting there.

Yeah. I'm so glad that you mentioned Aftermath because I think maybe I actually do have a theory about this and I want to try it out with you. I've been messing around with it for a couple months maybe, but I've been bragging to my clients and even maybe on the podcast that I think I figured out what love is. I know what it is now. I've got it. And it's generosity. I think love is generosity. a little bit of a theology about that, but what I think about aftermath, particularly that step that you're describing, that's step three. Is it an act of generosity to say to your partner, hey, by the way, I need to give you some information that this, some of this has nothing to do with you. Some of this predates you by 25 years. like even I thought of it because of the way you were talking, like it's literally you use the verb share.

That's beautiful. Absolutely. Absolutely.

which is a, as generous act, like sharing is a generous act. So, ⁓ it's, it's sort of like, if I have this, again, I don't know if it's fully formed, but like family of origin pieces, it's like, Hey, I need to give you more data or more context because in order to do that, I can love you better. You can love me better. It's not necessarily that I'm even going to heal it as much as I'm just going to access this thing.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For you to keep in mind that, you know, so you don't, I don't trick you into thinking you're responsible for this when I'm flooded. Yeah. This is a disclaimer that I want you to remember even when I can't share it later on.

Yeah, yeah, cause it's. Yeah. Okay. So, all right. Maybe I do actually think that family of origin work is valuable. ⁓ I just, I want so badly to like in my own story to have put it to bed. I'm gonna be like, I got it. Figured that out. Like, I'm all.

I bet, I bet. Dreams within conflict too, that's one of my favorite interventions because that one can get right to it. Like, is there a story behind this for you? And I have seen couples that just, I mean, have truly given up on trying to understand why their partner has a particular position on something usually, especially if it's around money or something, And it gets so ugly and the assumptions we make about this person blocking our

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

goals in life, why they are so stuck on this one thing and just won't give an inch on something that is so important to us, right? It can get so ugly. And I have seen on my couch, you know, like a woman suddenly, it's like it lifts the veil and you see your partner clearly like, no, this is a reasonable person who I really love. Now I remember why, like, of course they wouldn't just have this position for no reason. And this is a really good reason now that I understand

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

It may not be totally logical or reasonable, but I can absolutely understand now how they got here. You know, a husband talks about watching his parents fight about money again and again and swearing that as a good, decent man one day and seeing his father be berated and feel like a loser and wanting to save his father from that indignity and also save his mother from the strain and stress that she always felt. so He was going to make a bunch of money and he was going to save a bunch of money. And ⁓ just seeing a wife who can be pretty tough suddenly get on her knees, up on the couch, get up from her seat and wrap her arms around her husband who is starting to cry as he remembers this and how he developed his position around spending and saving. ⁓ Those are, like, I just live for those moments. They'll never not have that in their mind now when these discussions come up.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, kind of this idea that there's always more to see and that what you see isn't all there is to see. ⁓ So we have to kind of, maybe it's our job to help people take their blinders off. Yeah.

Absolutely. Right. Yeah, that's a really lovely way to say it.