Behind Closed Doors with Laura and Ryan Heck

How are you guys doing this morning?

How are you doing? We're fine. We're fine.

No, we're not saying.

Now, but Ryan did warn me that he was a little aggravated with my pace of mourning this morning.

No, no no, no, it wasn't it wasn't the pace. It was just like mornings or busy. Right? Yeah. We have to get the kid out the door. I have a standing 830 meeting every single morning, which.

We have to break for in order for him to get to his meeting.

Yeah.

It's hard.

Stop and and you're like, you guys have pretty flexible schedule. So I was like, why are we doing this?

It's totally.

Flexible.

I'm like, I'm just like, I got all kinds of time to burn. I'm just doing whatever. I woke up special early just for you guys today.

Yeah, I don't I'm not offended at all by that comment. Yeah. It was just a little bunker balls like I ran this morning. We had to get hold in out the door. Grandma's picking up in three minutes for a haircut.

Oh, yeah. We decided that the the day that we're podcasting back do an extra in the morning. We should also have an extra thing for our son in the morning.

Yeah, and he has to go too. Yeah. It's just a little bonkers that normally our mornings are very, like, slow and relaxing and we get to snuggle, but none of that happened, right? That's how we're doing.

Sorry about that, guys. Sorry I didn't get your snuggle time this morning.

You can see how aggravated I am.

No, he's not at all. He did ask me, though. He was like, what color do you want me in today like that is the golden question. I love it when he asks me what he should wear.

You rule.

I genuinely do.

Yeah.

And then. And then he wears it.

And then he wears it. Yeah.

That's that's I'm not. I'm not like her words. Do you like, hang up a couple of options and whatever option you point at she picks the other one.

Yeah. And now. Yeah.

And or like me or I'm like, Rebecca, what do you think about this? And she's like, I love it. I go, great, I'm going to change.

Yeah. No, he just wants to know, like, is this just pick out what I'm wearing. Like you. It matters to you. It doesn't matter to me. Today. So I'll give you the opportunity to tell me what to do. I love the invitation.

Right on.

Yeah.

I'm going to start today with a piece of marriage therapy. Radio trivia.

Oh.

Do you know Ryan?

No, I don't.

That.

Maybe.

We have this magic thing that we that we can do, Jason can do because he's. He knows the internet and and he knows that when people search for marriage therapy, radio, the number one search that is associated with Mary. Sarah, he knows is Laura, her ex-husband?

Yeah. I told him that the other day.

I told him why?

Why do you think that is?

Hey, everybody. Yeah, why? What is your.

Theory of theories about that? What do you think that's about?

So I, I always remember the, the one comment that I read on one of your Vanity Fair YouTubes, where you guys analyzed, Disney relationships.

It. Yeah.

And somebody said, well, she looks like a Disney princess, referring to Laura.

That's awesome.

And so I suspect that, people want to know if Laura Heck has a husband because they're probably kind of go on, like an eligible bachelor. Let's hit her up.

That's easy.

If he looks like Prince Charming.

Yeah. I wonder if he looks like Prince Charming. He does in case you're wondering, he is six foot tall.

And are you six foot tall?

Five, 11.75.

Yeah. You're taller than me. And I'm five 11.75, so.

He is 100% taller than you. Zach. He is?

I don't think so.

I agree, yes, we do here we'll.

Do the old. We'll stand.

Against the wall and mark a little pencil on top of the.

Thing. Yes.

You're going to be here in like two weeks, right?

Like three. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yes, we'll do it. He does look like a Disney prince. That is 100%, but more so, like the shining.

Armor till I take my shirt off.

Then dad bod, then you know that you've been busy at the computer and being a dad.

And Disney princesses don't make money. Yeah. Right on.

You have muscles where it counts.

Oh, hey. Oh! Spit in my.

Mouth. Do you remember? There was one other comment on some of that. We can we can take this one out. But, there was another comment on those Vanity Fair videos where you look like. And it was somebody whose name I forget, whose name it was, and you.

But if you Google the person.

Not.

Yeah, but you Google there and found out she was actually a porn star.

Oh hahahahaha.

You're like, she looks like you know, you know Sally Smith and you're like, who's Sally Smith? And you Google that. And you were like immediately your eyes burned out of your face because you're like, yeah. I didn't think that's to happen.

That's really funny.

Now I want to know.

I know me too, because if she's out there, we'll find her, all right? Anyway, do you even have trivia?

I don't have another trivia question, but I do want to ask the question that is, burning at the heart of everyone who is listening to this podcast, which is Ryan. What is it like to be married to a relationship expert?

It's fabulous. It's the best ever. I get this question a lot, actually. Do you and every day, like, what.

Do you say when I'm not around?

I guess that's my answer. It's easy. Life is much easier with you running our marriage and keeping me in check. Because. Because things, things just go smoothly. We don't fight. That's true.

Actually, that was a question I was going to ask you. Because, you know, and Laura had me and Rebecca on here. We were actually fighting in, like, real time.

Actually, like.

Actually really happening. But I was thinking about you guys, and I was like, I, I don't think that you fight. I don't, I don't I've never seen you fight. I've seen you bicker a little bit, but yeah. Talk to me about conflict. Like, what is it, how does it work. What do you what do you do? I mean, it's not there's not none.

That's true. It's. And I can't even tell you. Like, do you remember the last time we had a fight?

Like a like a real fight?

Yeah.

Not really. Like. Like our our conflict can get, passionate sometimes, but we usually find a, quick resolution.

I don't know, I. Yeah, we, I would say we bicker. I think we get kind of, like, frustrated with each other, but it's I, I honestly cannot tell you the last time that we were, like, angry and actually I do I told this story. I do remember that I went for a walk because there was at one point I was really frustrated with you, and this must have been probably about a year and a half, two years ago. And I went for a walk because I was frustrated, and by the time I got home, I was better. And I did a Zach ism, which is like, I, I tried to like, think about all your positive qualities while I was on my walk or on my drive. Can't remember, but we had a lot more conflict and I would say it was because I, we had a lot earlier on in the relationship, a lot of hurdles to overcome.

And I would call myself the like the crazy 21 year old like me. I had never been in a relationship before, so we had a lot to work out, so we had a lot more conflict early in the relationship. Some of the biggest conflicts I think we ever had was when we decided to leave Washington and I quit my job. That was a big one for me at least that was a big one. I don't necessarily think it was a conflict between us, but it was just a life conflict in general.

You know, post-college getting get in life started.

Yeah.

I mean, that was yeah, those were.

That was.

For the riskiest parts of our relationship, the very beginning.

I know we got it all out of the way, but yeah, we don't do we don't do conflict.

Attribute that to like, what do you have theories about that. Why do you why how do you successfully avoid conflict? Is it part of your personality. Is it did you get lucky? Is there something specific that you do do? Is there work that you, take on together? That protects the relationship from conflict to others?

Be quiet and let you answer that one, because I've got an answer, but I want to hear what you have to say.

I so I think it's a lot of it is due to our personalities. Just we're both very laid back, relatively, relatively thoughtful.

I was waiting for Zach to be, like, really laid back.

I mean, one of you is I. I can appreciate that for sure. Yeah.

Oh, Laura. Laura's. Laura's very understanding.

That is.

True. Very understanding. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. I actually have a a real time question here. I experience Laura as highly critical and kind of, And what's the word I'm looking for?

Snatch.

No. Kind of like. It's not flighty. That's not exactly the word. That's a little too, like little too, heady. That's not at all what I mean. It's a sort of like, scattered perhaps.

And.

And so that pushes up against my personalities in ways that are like, kind of grating. But do you, do you not have the same experience or do you have a different interpretation of those qualities that, that, that I've experienced? I, I don't I don't mean to say we're the same, but like, how do you make sense of some of that part of just her persona.

Yeah. There's definitely like some some scatterbrain ness that goes on. And that I, you know, I think when that's going on, I my understanding kicks in because I can be the same way sometimes. But, you know, when it comes to like the hypercritical piece, you just need to do better. Zach. It's true.

It's no doubt that is not a lie. No lies detect it.

So 100%. This is where, like we joke that we I tell Ryan, who's we?

You and me or you and him.

Know, like with Ryan, is that we are very much so. Like we are the perfect combination of, like, salty sarcasm hiding. Just like that's our love language. Was it not like, what brought us together?

Yeah. If you think she's critical, you know. Oh, yeah, I like I will make people cry and, like, totally unintentionally.

It's true. It's true. So, yes.

I've had that experience of you once.

Well.

You didn't make me cry, but I was like, wow, that was a little lies, a little lie that was bigger than I thought it was going to be.

Yeah, it it comes out of my mouth like it's just like it's just so easy. It comes so easily to me. And I,

So we just, very, we that was like, the foundation of our relationship was very teasing, critical, sarcastic. And it is it's built on a just like a massive bed of goodwill and friendship and humor. And in fact, like when we say mean things to each other, like extra mean it, it cracks us up. Like when we call each other names at the dinner table. There's one name in particular that we'll call each other, like if he looks at me and he's like, you smell like a dirty pirate hooker. I freaking love it. I think it is hilarious, but I know that other people would not think that that would.

Probably wouldn't. Yeah.

In fact, Pirate hooker is what an ex-boyfriend used to call me. And I loved it too. So maybe there's like an element of a little bit of, like, abuse that I enjoy. I don't know, but anyway, that is. Yes, this is.

The sex therapy podcast. It's a no, no, no.

I mean, it's all other related.

Talk to me about your pirate hooker persona. Laura, I'd like to know your specific. No, I'm just just kidding.

I was in this porn, and it was called. Oh, yeah. Pirates. Yeah, it was Jenna Jameson, and it was very popular.

And, you know a little too much about this scene.

This was the first. No.

So you can't remember the lady that you look exactly like.

That's right. But do you remember that story time? Story time? It was the first I mean, I'm just going to share this. When we were early on in our relationship and we were dating, we weren't even engaged. I don't think, we went down to like the sexy shop and we rented an actual VHS tape or DVD. Must have been a DVD.

I think it was VHS.

Was a VHS.

You guys know it.

Was.

Pirates?

Yeah, it was pirates. The the porn. Okay. And I remember, like, we watched it and like, tried to like, oh, this is hot. But most of the time we were like.

It just felt dirty. Yeah. Like the whole experience going to the store, like, those stores were gross. Yeah, yeah. The whole what.

Happened? We were there one time and somebody was with us like a friend, and they were like flipping through the magazines. At some point they're like, I dated him. Do you remember that? I can't remember what the story was or who we were with, but someone, like, I've.

Never been to one of those stores. I don't know, you're talking about. It was a I've.

Only been there one time with you, and it was like standing next to you the entire time.

Yeah, 100%. I never disappeared into the back curtained area anyway,

He, wait, I did.

I will go on, go on. Yeah.

How do you know that? That curtained area.

Totally. Yeah.

You do?

I I'm sort of fascinated by this because, you know, we know that couples are all over the map when it comes to conflict and that there are high conflict couples or low conflict couples. And I'm glad that you sort of brought it up, because I was kind of like, I'm going to poke an image, see if I can figure it out, like what's really going on with the conflict. But you base it in your friendship.

Yeah.

And like, you have this.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Well, I also think that we overcame a lot, like we solved the solvable stuff early on. And here's the part that I think is a little different. Like when you said we're really easygoing. What he means is like, we're very gracious in giving to each other. And so and that part is true is like we are constantly trying to say yes to each other. And that took probably the first ten years of our relationship to sort out on my behalf.

You on your end? Yeah.

What do you mean? I well, I had a hard time saying yes. Oh that's right. Yeah. He would say things like, hey, I really want to go. This was like, it would scare me. He would have these big dreams, these big things he wanted to accomplish. And I would have a really hard time saying yes. My knee jerk reaction was, we don't have the resources, time, money, love, whatever it took, you know, to make that happen. And I just made, like a hard shift in our relationship. And it's changed everything. Like if I can just say yes. And now I love to hear the stories when Ryan comes back and he's like, dude, I hear the stories about the guys on the golf course as wives and, you're the best one. You're so giving la la. I'm like, yeah, for winning, right?

Yeah.

Either that or you're just telling me lies just to keep your your butt out on the golf course. But it's working.

Good, good.

Thank you. Rebecca. He is very, very quick to say things like, the cobbler's kids have no shoes. Like being married to a relationship expert is, it's all it's all well and good on the surface, but there's a that's actually really hard at home. And so it's a little bit of refreshing to hear you kind of, I don't know, not say that, not go, it's just. Yeah, it's only you knows what it's like, but, but do you have theories like, do you like. If so, Laura, for example, has like a fully fleshed out theory of how relationships work, and she's probably been, you know, you've been adjacent to that for 15 years or whatever it's been. Do you, do you when you think about how relationships work, do you have you formed your own? Is it same as hers or she just let her. Give it to you. Or do you have like yet another thing that you're kind of working through or working out on, on the side.

Yeah.

Well so I mean I think the right definitely to get the right answer is the friendship has to be strong period. Like and I appreciate that about the two of you in that you can own that real quick. But but I also wonder like if you have actual, I don't know, actual thoughts. I don't want to say thoughts of your own. Like you're some kind of, you know, like Lego character or something, but like, do you have do you have your own theories here? Like, what do you tell your guys on the golf course?

Oh good question.

Let's say when they're complaining about their wives and you're like, well, let me tell you about what's going on for.

Battleaxe at home that I.

Have. They don't complain about their wives on the golf course. We don't we don't talk about women on the golf course. Or at least not our women. Yeah.

Scoot over to.

Talk about other women.

Yeah, sure. Like the car, the colored cart girl.

It's like that classic, that classic story about the two couples that go out and play tennis and the the wives are playing, and then the husbands are playing, and they're like the wives come off, they're driving home afterwards, and the wife says, can you believe about that wedding? And so and so and this happened, and they're going to have a baby and that it in that I can't believe that she wore a dress. And then the husband goes, they're getting married.

Yeah. Who's you know.

Then I'll talk about it. Yeah.

But he's okay. But my original question is like when you think about how you make sense of your, your marriage or a marriage or relationships, like what's your what's your pocket theory that you have that, that maybe somebody asks you on an airplane, that's why.

So, you know, people on the airplane frequently ask, you know, what do you do? Yeah. Oh, cool. Are you married? Kids, blah blah blah was a wife. Does your wife work? And and it comes up the lawyer is a therapist. And then they try to get free therapy for me. This is, and and so, yeah, I, I, I share some of Laura's opinions. My favorite one is the emotional bank account. Okay. So, you know, this notion that you you have to make deposits, you're going to make withdrawals. Everybody makes withdrawals. You have to consciously make deposits. And I've used that in, in business, actually. And, you know, in my process of, of leadership, in business. But yeah, to to answer your question about, do you, do you have your own opinion, Ryan?

Yeah, I have I have my own opinions on, how to make relationships work. And, and again, like, it comes from business, because I've, I've spent so much of my life focused on, leadership. My dad was a really big leadership guy. He was a management consultant for years, studied leadership, you know, really high performing, executive in the, in the Bell System back in the day. And so you, he taught me about, you know, like how how to drive incentives, how to use, for awards, remuneration and recognition. Okay. And so, like, the.

Three R's, I can't you, like, you know.

Did you know that was that I could would, could you have repeated those learning like.

No, not at all. Because I think the first time I'm hearing about this, okay.

I can't use remuneration in my marriage. Right.

What does that even mean? I don't even.

Pay. It means pay.

You can pay me any day and I will accept it.

I do pay you.

In sweet, sweet kisses. Yes.

But recognition, is really, really important. To Laura. It's true. And I know when I'm not giving it to her because she asks for it.

But I did this last night. Did I not?

You did. Laura did an amazing job. Of doing the laundry.

He knows how many loads. Because I told him specifically.

I don't I for I forgot five loads. I blocked it out.

I'll tell you more. Five loads of laundry folded, put them away and then color coded and organized the closet.

Like, legit organized. Like, I walked in the closet and it was sparkling like that cartoon sparkle. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, like, back to the the the hours. The three hours, recognition is is the most important one. It's it's free and it and it can be used frequently. But not too frequently. Okay. If you use it, if you use it too frequently, then they get used to it. Oh, come on.

I gotta keep them guessing. Like the gambling system. Will I be rewarded and recognize it? Oh, no.

And then? And then reward. It's like. It's kind of like, it's kind of an icky feeling to say, like, I reward my wife for good behavior. Like, no, it's not like that. But you can liken it to, to to gift giving or to, like, acts of service. Right. Like, what is your partner's love language, right. Like, these are real concepts. They're they're scientifically proven, like the, the idea that, that one of these things, either an act of service or a gift, would, would still your partner up. What.

Is my love language? Do you.

Know, you are definitely acts of service. You're not really a gift taker. Like, know you like getting gifts, but it's not now. It's not in your top two.

That's true, that's true. I think you're right. Such. I think it's physical touch. You can tell because he backs himself into me every night. Yeah, he does the flop and lays across me with his shirt off and pulls his pants down and he's like, scratch all of the skin, please. Want all of my skin touched and yeah.

Yeah, some like weird like childhood psychosis thing that I was.

He's a soother.

My mom.

Was on the road with for me.

Nothing wrong with it.

Okay. Similar question. You guys, it's. So I was going to say Laura has this necklace that she wears, that, and the kind of the inscription, I think it says three best friends. Right? Oh, yeah. Seems like a it seems like a thing that that the two of you have embraced in terms of your family with in there. And I wonder, just because I it's been a really long time since I've had young children, if, you know, if you have a specific philosophy of parenting. Lauren, I don't talk a ton about parenting. It kind of creeps in from time to time. But you're you're a good parent. You're a really good dad. I like I, I actually really admire that about you with Holden.

And I wonder if that comes from a specific place or theory or philosophy that you've formed, that you can articulate out loud like that you know about or just like you get lucky because you had a good dad or something. I don't know, like.

I love my dad. Yeah. I don't know if he was a good dad or not. So. Sure, there's still that. Yeah. Thank you. First of all, that, yeah, that is the, like, meaning of success for me. I could fail everywhere else, but if I'm a good dad, I feel very successful.

Well, that kid loves you. It's true. Loves the two of you so much. Yeah, it's. I try to like, sometimes I'll just, like, rib him a little bit and try to wedge in between and try to form a bond and, like, make, make myself like the cool uncle and, you know, and he's like, no, no, I don't need that. Like I need I got exactly what I need, you know?

So he's like, get off of me. Yeah.

I do think, one thing that we talked about really early on is the idea of like quality time. And I think that that probably stemmed from a lot more of, like, your childhood. I grew up in a single family household where it was, a working mom. So I didn't have a ton of, a ton of her time. But it was always like, we always had quality time. Like we would sit down for dinner every single night. And I think we've talked a lot about how to create that quality time. Your dad traveled a ton when you were small. And doing the business stuff. So that's definitely a philosophy that I think we have stood by.

And even last night we have a ritual that we just keep talk. Every time we do it, we're like, man, we really need to make sure that we like this is the priority of going for family walks every single night. And I think that that's because that's at the core of what we believe in is just having really being very present and having quality time and making time for family. So I think we do that is a philosophy and a value that we protect, and we continue to like, live out every single day. Yeah. Like in general, I would say family hours are from 4 to 8 p.m. every single night.

Agreed, give or take depending on activities and stuff. But yeah, we we usually try and shut down the laptop and, and put the phones face down and leave them, leave them alone so we can be together. And, and pay attention to one another. And and create a, a safe, comfortable space for everybody to, to, to share what's on their mind. I, Laura mentioned my dad traveling a lot, and that that was really core, to my, you know, my my initial inkling of what I wanted to be as a father was like, you know, I don't want to be gone all the time. I want to be, and present. I want to be able to go to those, you know, soccer games, baseball games, whatever.

I want ocean. I want to teach my son how to do the things that I love to do. You know, if he's interested in, Yeah. So, so, yeah. Place of safety, of open communication. For, I, I didn't have that either. Growing up. I had kind of this, like, very, authoritarian view of my parents, and and.

I was kept lied.

To from them. And. Yeah, so we're, we're trying to make sure that there are open lines of communication, no matter what. That's true. And I think just the behavior that comes out of that, that idea in the back of your mind fosters a, you know, a more loving relationship.

Well done. Yeah, I think we're definitely getting parenting right. We are crushing the parenting world. That part dialed Holden is an easy kiddo, but he's turning out great, too.

I don't think I know the answer to this question. I feel like it's tucked into my brain somewhere. I can't pull it out, but, how did you decide and or did you decide to have only one? Like is that did does come from both of you? Is that one of you? Is that is that something that I don't know? Well, how did that happen?

It's funny, because somebody asked me that the other day, when I was running. So I just got done with her to coast and see her in a van with, like, five people for 24 hours. And somebody asked me that question, and I paused because I was like, that is such a can of worms for so many women where I'm like, ooh, I don't know if I would ever ask somebody unless I it was like a very private conversation. And I knew them really, really well. But we it's not.

This, like, I know you really well and this is a super private conversation. Except for the million people that are listening.

Yeah, yeah, really bold question. There is. I like how later rip off the duct tape.

Yeah. So we had Holden and we are severely disappointed. And we were like, now let's just stop because I don't want to have another.

This is a drag that egg.

Yeah, I want to drag.

Is the exact opposite of that.

Totally. Yeah. I think we wanted to or at least I wanted to. I was I wanted to recreate the experience that I had growing up, which was a built in best friend at all times when my brother and I are 15 months apart. And so I think I went into motherhood thinking, let's just crap out a couple kids really close together and knock it out and, and then who do you is born and I don't I mean, I know my experience. What was your experience?

Just, like, the easiest baby I've ever seen. I have many nieces and nephews. The obvious.

Easy as a baby.

Who's easy as far as babies go.

Yeah, but there is a sense of completion.

Well, yeah, that's the.

I'm not. I'm not recognizing the amount of breastfeeding you did in the middle of the night.

That's true, that's true.

There you go back into your recognition strategy.

The high the rigor.

I think that, like, this is something I say to couples all the time in my practice, particularly when they're trying to figure out whether or not to have children. Is this idea of, is your family whole? Like, are you complete? Like, did you say. Yeah, but sounds like you guys had Holden and you knew instinctively or maybe even explicitly. This feels complete for us. This feels whole. Yeah. Which I think is a this data to pay attention to, you know.

Yeah. I have a memory. I don't know if it's even real, but, we kind of, like, both turn to each other and let. Are we done?

I think so, we're good. Yeah, I think that was a memory. Yeah. And I think we we did do it some honor where we're like, okay, let's actually think about this rather than just deciding rather. But we yeah, we neither of us were like aching to have another kid. We felt really happy. We didn't think at all about like, cool. What's the impact it'll have on Holden? We were really just like, well, we feel fine about it. So I think we're done.

I think the final answer was, hey, we can sit in one row in an airplane. Yeah, and one one hotel room comfortably.

Do you? Ryan? Do you know what Laura says is your family's primary value?

Our family.

Yeah. She says our family is about feeling that, you know, this is the word that she most often uses. Do you know what it is?

I don't actually,

Do you know what it is?

It is it adventure?

Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense, right? Yeah.

Well, that gets back to the. We can sit in one row. We can. We can hop on a plane. We can go do this thing.

Yeah.

Here's another question. I don't think I know the answer. I actually, I do think I know the answer to. But have you guys ever done couples therapy? Ever? Have you ever been in therapy together?

Nope. Not once.

Not a single time. I know, but I will say I asked him last year. I said, hey, I'm really intrigued and interested in, learning about sensate focused, like sex therapy and learning how to breathe and just like, tapping into sensuality. And I think the best way to go about learning this is if we do it together and we immerse ourselves in it, and that would be the greatest way for me to take that education to my clients and see. I mean, I don't know if he heard sex and was like, I'm in whatever it is, the cost, we'll find a babysitter. I'm in 100%. But he has always been super willing to do that. And we've had definitely times like, especially in we've wow. I mean, we've kind of been through a little bit of, the last five years.

We're kind of like a little bit of a rocky moment. But, where we've talked about different strategies of, like, what? How do we need to outsource and just get some support? However we need it. So. But no, never. Couples therapy.

Yeah.

How do you feel about that? Like, it sounds like you feel fine about it, but do you feel like you could or should or.

How do you feel about it?

Yeah. Zach.

Well, I feel about it that I feel like being having been in therapy with Rebecca and being in therapy myself makes me a better therapist. It makes me before, But we are really different than you guys, right? We we we have a we're very comfortable with disharmony. We have gone through phases that have I mean, we don't have a lot of like, built in synergy at our personality level. So it was actually a resource that we needed. And I, I've never like, well, you guys are missing out or something. I don't know. I guess I wonder, like, how do you sounds like you feel fine and that's, that's allowed and just sort of made me go, I wonder what that's when or what that's like.

As never for a minute thought that we need therapy. I like I individual therapy.

Yes.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I need tons of therapy. As an individual, I am a mess now.

I mean, I am in it.

Appreciate it. It's. Yeah.

Well and and. Okay, so let's say I'm listening to this podcast and I'm thinking about whether or not I need therapy as a couple. And Zach's like, well, he and Rebecca need it, but Ryan and Laura don't need it. Like, what? What do you think is the clue or the data that that couple ought to be paying attention to, to discern whether or not marriage therapy or couples therapy is is something for that many area.

And, I mean, I think a lot of the clients that have been coming to see me recently have had a hard time communicating what they want, and they're not getting what they want, like they're just unhappy in their relationship. A lot of times it's because their partner's not meeting their needs, but they're also not comfortable expressing their needs. And we we've got that pretty dialed in. Okay. There's a lot of asking in our household, but there's a lot of granting a lot of like, yes, a lot of support. And I think overall, just like general happiness, like we're really happy. And the times when we have looked at each other, we're like, do we need to like, outsource some things right now?

It's when that happiness dips, when when the, yeah. Whether it be like work stresses going on or just relational grace like outside of our relationship. But there hasn't been much between the two of us. Yeah. It's been a lot of other things. And I think even going to couples therapy as a team to be able to figure out a dynamic, like maybe there's a relational dynamic with a family member and you want to go to couples therapy to sort of like figure out how to mitigate that. That would be fine. But yeah. We just haven't we haven't hit that road yet.

So I, I was I have to like go back to what I know, which is, is the world of business. And, you know, I see I see some people stay with the same company for 25 years, and I see a lot of people bouncing around.

Where are you going with this?

I want to find out. And, and when you ask the people who bounce around a lot, like, what's, you know, what didn't work here, what didn't work there, what didn't work there, you can actually distill it down to a pretty common theme, in terms of what they were unhappy with or with or what what their business was unhappy with them for. Pretty common theme. And so if if people start recognizing like you have to, you have to be self analytical to pick up on this, if you start recognizing the haters, a common theme that's making me unhappy. You you need to address that with your partner, with your business. You know, your business, with your colleagues, your coworkers.

Right? There's there's this underlying thing that is creating disharmony. Like you, you said, Zach, which I love. If you let it go and fester for too long, it's too late. If there's one thing I've learned from Laura, there's that a lot of couples come to couples therapy to late pop quiz.

How late would you say? Is there a number of, like, how long people wait before they seek support?

What is it like eight years?

Six years?

Six years?

Yes.

Like six. Right?

Sounding seriously sounding length of time he does. And now can you imagine being.

Unhappy.

Unhappy about the same thing for six years straight? Can you.

Actually can imagine.

That?

Yes. In fact, I can.

No, that's a really good point. And I you know, I think, there are couples in my life and you remind them that that do a really good job of maintaining kind of the daily, the daily balance of staying friendly and staying ahead of conflict and doing exactly what you're supposed to do to, in theory, stay out of the therapist's office and you know, what I tell couples all the time is that I don't think therapy is the answer. I think therapy can be an answer, you know? But if you're needing something, therapy is just one of the options. Listening to a podcast every week is an option. Buying a book is an option. Having friends in your community that you rely on and that you outsource your, you know, attention to is an option. I mean, there's all kinds of, I mean, there's unhealthy options, right?

I can drink too much, I can have an affair. There's all kinds, but seems like you guys have really found your niche in terms of dialing in to, both the kind of the inertia of your own personality, but also this, the the confidence you have in your friendship. That is, that, you know, keeps you out of the therapist office, which is fantastic. I love that.

Yeah. We agreed. Agreed.

Apple a day.

Is there anything else that you want to make sure that the world knows about you, you or you guys before we, before we sign off into the ether?

I was thinking about this in the shower. Ryan, what is your biggest pet peeve about me right now?

I mean, me get up and do this podcast. While I kid was getting a haircut and going to the this.

That's not a big deal, Laura is having a hard time hearing.

Oh, this is true. Did I tell you about this act that we all think that I am losing my hearing?

No.

Becky, is that a pet peeve or is it just funny?

It that's not that's different than she's not a very good listener, right?

Yeah.

The I think we have different experiences of that.

Yeah. Yeah. She's a.

Great listener. Nice to.

Him.

Most off mostly. Yeah.

Can't but she can't hear like Holden yesterday said hey mom, will you paint with me? And she said, yeah, I was thinking about making some banana bread. Yeah. Oh, I think.

I thought you said, Will you bake with me? Yeah, but this is.

This happens every.

Day. Yeah.

It does multiple times a day. And it's been going on for a couple of months. It's like to the point where it's been going on for more than a couple months. But a couple months ago, Holden and I were like.

You can't hear.

To get your hearing chip. Yeah, yeah. And it's been two months and she still hasn't even, like, thought about making an appointment. It's triggering chatter, y'all.

Here's the thing. We're going to laugh about it. Now I'm going to go in and get my hearing checked. We're going to find out that I'm the carrier of noise, which is like that's the reason why I hope not either. But we can all have a good laugh that I'm losing my hearing and that hopefully it's not related to NF and it's not genetic and all that, but it is true. And you you said flighty earlier and I was scared.

Maybe, that it was the word I backed off of.

Yeah, yeah. This all you guys could be 100% tied to undiagnosed ADHD. Let's just say that that there are some things that I may be having. Yeah. Anyway, I was curious about that because we don't we don't really pick on each other too much. Like, we have a good get a good laugh about our pet peeves with each other. But, I was wondering, he doesn't complain about me at all. So.

You know.

Either I'm perfect or he just doesn't have much to.

Say. It's just not worth it to.

Well, let's let's end here, which is maybe a little bit of a hard curveball kind of thing, but, you just both kind of, introduced this idea of NPH into the dialog, which there are plenty of people who are listening to this for the first time, maybe haven't heard about it. Talk to me, Ryan, about, what that is. And what you want people to know and, and how we can support that effort in your family's life.

Yeah. Thank you. And f is is a it's a pretty broad spectrum. So, Holden specifically has what's called Nrf2. It's it's neurofibromatosis type two. And so neurofibromatosis refers to this, idea of a sheath tumor on a nerve cell. And, and it's, it, it forms because you are lacking a genetic marker that, causes your, your nervous system to re uptake something called Schwann cells. And so, people with NF2 lack this genetic marker that allows them to re uptake Schwann cells. So what happens is Schwann cells start to accumulate, throughout your nervous system. So, our baby boy has, has Schwann omas. That's the the name of the tumor. He has these accumulations of, of nervous cells, in his brain, and on his spinal cord. And.

Can I interject for a second? Yeah. And so when we talk about hearing the diagnosis. So the way that they diagnose Nrf2 is when you have bilateral, accumulation of these cells, the tumors on both sides, both hearing canals. And so people with Nrf2, I think like 100% of them end up going deaf in at some point in their lifetime.

Oh, well.

They basically starve out, and cut off the blood flow to your, your,

Not the blood flow. It's at the tumor, literally pinches the nerve.

Oh, pinches the nerve. Yeah.

To the point where it it is no longer functional. Yeah. And and it can, it can start putting pressure on other parts of your brain. And so the, you know, the eventual required treatment is a resection. And so far, the only surgical methods that are available to resect these tumors cause deafness. There is no way, and I shouldn't say no way. They're they're like a few experimental things that people are maybe finding might work 1 in 100 times. But, you know, when you when you end up with these tumors on your auditory nerve, it's a 99.9% chance that you're going to go deaf. When when you eventually have to have the tumor removed. So, you know, holding has this and, and there's treatment that we're doing for him.

It's, it's an immunotherapy that, you know, we go to the hospital once a month to get this therapy. And, and it it can be effective at delaying the growth, slowing the growth of these tumors. And so we're hopeful that that that will buy him enough time, until more advanced, gene editing therapies are available. So there's a lot of cool Crispr research going on right now. Right now, that, you know, in the next five, ten, 15 years could yield, you know, a cure, you know, maybe a cure. And it it's it's such a it's such a, like, crazy rabbit hole to go down because NF two is actually more prevalent. It's a rare disease, is considered a rare disease, but it's actually more prevalent than Lou Gehrig's disease.

ALS ALS is devastating. It it is it like the what it does to people is, is just horrific and tragic. And it it deserves every ounce of attention that it gets. Yeah. And what we want to do is, is get the same level of attention on NF both NF one and Nrf2. I won't talk about NF one. It's it's actually like a really different disorder, how it manifests. But we, you know, we think Nrf2 should have more research being done on it because it is, you know, more prevalent than, than other diseases. And it's just as devastating. Can you imagine your nine year old facing going death someday and facing a limited life span because this, you know, this genetic marker is going to cause him to grow tumors?

I mean, it's it's it was devastating for us to get that news last year, and it's been a big adjustment. So we're we're still trying to figure out exactly how we're going to support the research going forward. Laura's doing the New York Marathon with the the Children's Tumor Foundation,

Which you can support at Marriage Therapy Radio if you go over there and Laura's fundraiser is there and available, if you're interested in continuing to bolster research for an that's please.

Yeah.

Please do.

Oh, that was like a got like, like a little emotional at the end there as you were talking about that. So.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I, I think you're a dirty pirate. Hooker. We can have we end there.

That's great.

You smell like a dirty pirate. Hooker there. We got the one there.

There? Yes.

I didn't actually said a real word that we like to call each other.

Yeah, I'll tell you later, Zach. The word I like to call each other. Okay.

Well, thank you so much for coming on to Mercer Radio and making everyone who listens. So have.

The curiosity that.

They finally now know what Prince Charming looks like and sounds like.

Thanks for the, Prince Charming.

Rose pink, apparently.

Yeah, because his wife told him to.

Your pack looks good right there. And just like it's poppin. All right, audio snack. We'll see you later. Yeah. All right.