The Hard Work of Staying Together: Tarah & EJ’s Story

Thanks for coming on, E.J.. Terry. You guys are in Arizona? Yeah. How's Arizona? Is it hot?

It's already.

I already, like, almost 100 degrees yesterday. It's not okay.

Is that normal, or is it been that way for, like, ten years? 20 years, 30 years? 100.

Years? We've been in drought since, like, the late 80s.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's. Yeah. So it's it's hotter. It rains less.

But normally 90s don't happen until May. So just it's just been a brutal.

It rained once. Usually we have we have two rainy seasons. We have like the monsoon during the summer. And then we have a rainy season in December January. And it rained once during that second rainy season.

So I think I'm learning how to ask questions of folks our age. I'm assuming that we're all about the same age. I'm 51.

But 52.

Yeah, I'm learning how.

The baby here. Okay.

Well, but, you know, even at 48, you're old enough. And this is the thing that I've been realizing, like I'm old enough to remember things that were a lifetime ago and I was an adult during that time.

Yeah.

You know, it's like. It's not like. Oh, that was a lifetime ago when I was in high school. It was like, that was a lifetime ago when I was 30. Yeah.

Then the 90s are a trippy time right now because it's that's, like, nostalgic and like, you know, like Dazed and Confused. Ask for younger, younger people.

I saw a meme or something about how if, Marty McFly went back in time in the equivalent situation from now, it would be 1995, like he would go back to 1995.

That's. That's screwed up. I don't how did it happen?

So who are you guys? You're E.J. and Tara and, your therapists. You're. Yeah. Yeah. And what's that like? What's it like to be married to a therapist? That's always. I bet you get that question.

It's so funny. Yeah. I've been a marriage and family therapist for 22 years. I became a therapist later in his life, but I just remember thinking, because I've been doing marriage counseling since I was 24, I was like, I am not going to get married. Maybe ever. Or if I do, I'm just going to make sure, like it's for someone who's so emotionally available because I had just seen such suffering and I was scared of, like, making the wrong choice. So I feel like when I met E.J., because we were both colleagues together, we were specializing in eating disorders at the time, so we were working at a residential center. I was like, oh my God, he's like the coolest guy ever. He's like doing this amazing process work with teenagers. I'm like a zip line who are struggling with anorexia.

And he just was like, I mean, I've known a lot of therapists, but he made me an offer because he was just amazing. And then, you know, I got lucky enough to start dating him after he had gone through a divorce. But yeah, I was just like, yeah, it was my first time really dating someone who was understood the emotional piece. Like, I, I always kind of dated guys that were more engineer type and not necessarily, like, emotionally available. Maybe, but not bad guys. Just so. Yeah, I really liked edges. I don't know, a feminine side, emotional side. Now, how about for you?

I mean, just, I mean, being married to a therapist is, I don't know, just being a therapist and being married, I think is what I connected with originally. It was just like that. It feels like the whole authenticity thing seems like amped up on steroids, you know? And especially because we're marriage, you know? You know, in the marriage, family field of, like, everything feels like we have to be practicing everything we're preaching. And so it's sometimes it feels like I don't know a lot of pressure I mean some and sometimes I feel like honestly like in more difficult times in our life where like we were doing couples therapy together at that point like co facilitating and Tara would literally say stuff like how you go, how are you like saying this to people and then you can't do it yourself.

It trips us up.

And it was like, and it was real, you know, so, you know, it's like, I feel like I have like a high standard to live up to both. Yeah. In being an authentic person. But then also like to Tara, like of, like, you know, be like like like knowing how to be healthy and well and communicate and evolve myself is sometimes it feels like a lot of pressure for me. It feels like a lot of pressure. But yeah, I think I feel that way in a lot of aspects of my life.

Yeah, there's always that trust that we're going to grow together, because that's what we help our clients do and grow and become more insightful and aware through, you know, whatever approach. And so I feel like that trust that, like no matter what we go through, at least we're going to grow together because it's important for us to grow ourselves. So that trust feels really good even when we have the hard times, for sure.

Yeah, yeah. So, I want to I do want to hear about the work that you do and what you've got going on. I also want to pick your brains kind of behind the curtains a little bit. But let me just ask this question. When you when you're on an airplane and maybe you're sitting together, maybe you're not. And somebody says, what do you guys do? And you're like, oh, we're roommates, therapists, and we work together and blah, blah, blah. And then they say, what's the secret? How does it how do you make it work? What are you telling?

You have to, I mean, I never tell people that I'm a marriage therapist because that that is, like, on the phone, like in the plane or whatever, because that's like, my time to be off. I have really good boundaries now. Yeah. Otherwise I will, like, have my ear is full for four hours, and I just.

Do you have a do you have an alternate career that you say when they're like, what do you do for work? You're like, what.

Do I say? I'm like, the best mom ever. Okay. All right. And then sometimes I like, allude to our podcast or something, but but I would say this because we do have a lot of people, like in our with friends circle or kids athletic groups, whatever. And we just say you have to be really, comfortable with being uncomfortable. Like, that's my biggest thing. Like the bravery that comes with getting through things and not withdrawing from them is so significant. I had to learn how to do it, because what I wanted to do was just leave. And so it's just getting really comfortable with being uncomfortable. And in our counseling center here in Tucson, we have this big whiteboard that says our patient or our partner is our greatest teacher.

Be patient for the lessons because it's so true. Like I've grown so much because of each. But I had to be okay with very uncomfortable times in my body and my nervous system in our life.

I think it's funny, like when I get when people ask me what I do and I tell them they never ask what the secret is, they just start talking, you know, they just start. They're like, oh. And then and then, you know, an hour later, you know, like, and because I'm not in therapist mode, I'm not asking questions. I'm just nodding and you're like, well, just tell me what they will just tell you. I mean, it tells you, like how much people want to be heard, right? Like how much they want to open up. Yeah. Because they're like, oh, thank God. It's like I'm sitting next to somebody who knows how to listen.

Yeah, hopefully.

So the second marriage for you, is that right? Yep. And first for you.

Yeah. How I been.

Gosh we've been married.

13.

Years so 12 years married.

14 years together.

Ten years.

Together. And I was 37 when we got married.

I was like 40th.

Yeah.

Yeah. Two kids come in and I had two boys. I had young kids.

They were that for two other children.

You know, we had twins.

Together on our honeymoon. We got pregnant with twins, and so we went from 0 to 4 kids under five in a year. Yeah.

Terror went from this like swinging, just letting go. 37 year old living her best life till like two stepkids twin.

That had colic.

Business shortly after. Like that's a big part of our story is just like our life has been. We had this, like, amazing honeymoon ish, you know, year and a half where it was lots of fun and play. And then it's been like 15 years of frickin intensity.

12 years because the twins are 11. So like 11.5.

It feels like 15.

Yeah. We haven't even been together for 15. 14. Yeah, a lifetime.

I had a couple come in once and I asked them how long they've been together, and I think she said ten and he said like six or something. I mean, it was not close. They did not like they weren't. And I was like, okay, I can see this is going to.

Something's going on here.

Be a thing.

Yeah.

So you're in the neighborhood. You're like in the teens. You have like an adolescent marriage.

Exactly.

It feels like that. We're trying to individuate.

Do you, sometimes, like when you think about your relationship, you know, you look back at things that kind of have shaped it. I call them before and after mom. It's like, do you have 1 or 2 of those that kind of before this, the relationship was like this. And after this, the relationship was like that.

Oh yeah.

What do you got?

Oh, I, I think about I was like.

Let me ask you this question real quick before you answer. Yeah. Do you think if I had you write down three each that you would have the same list, like three key before.

Nine.

In your relationship?

I would think.

That's.

One of them. Would definitely, I would assume would be the same.

I've got two.

I have one that's like pretty deeply personal, not personal, but it was like a big thing for me that relatively within the last couple of years. So it wasn't like a, you know, so I think like one of them, we would have the same, I would guess.

All right. Is it is it the swimming pool?

No one. No, no. For me that just the birth of the twins was like.

That's an issue. I was right before and after.

Because our.

Relationship was like that. You it it.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, but yeah, I mean, so you're swimming pool one and my like, realization in the kitchen were very like sort of personal but we've shared them with each other.

I mean to me it's the before is just like I never I had always seen edge in this easy light like we're easy together. I love the boys. We were with them 50% of the time. So we got to have our like fun movie night and then have our own like trips up to Sedona. So it was just this, like, my nervous system felt very calm and easy. And then after, like after what? When the twins were born, when we literally brought these two 4 pound babies home. Yeah. My nervous system has not maybe will not ever feel that calm. And so it was like for me, it was like whiplash. I went from this calm, safe place to me in the moment, it felt like total chaos and hell, actually, because I'd never felt so uncomfortable and busy and sleep deprived in my whole life. But I've been working on, you know, in my own therapy for years to get back to a place of regulation. But yeah, so that means, like, whiplash.

I actually, I have a second. And the second one, I got to kind of, like, ask you permission for.

Hey. Yeah. You're cool. For the record.

Obviously we can edit anything out if you end up saying something, you're like, yeah, I really don't like. You can tell me if you want and then not tell America or the world if you want. Just you're allowed to just say, hey, let's not do that part. But sure. I don't want you to go edit yourself on my behalf.

Okay? Okay.

I mean, the first one is like a really personal one for me. Last couple years, it was in the kitchen, and I think you had said it to me, but I hadn't, like, soaked in. And it was like we, you know, we've we've had like significant struggles over the years like, like really like heartbreaking, you know, soul wracking moments. And it was like that no matter what, I want you to be happy. And, even if that was with me and that was like, that was really hard. That was like a, a big letting go. Yeah. Of the like, no matter what, I want you happy. And if I, if it's not with me, it's okay. I mean, that's going to be will be okay. But I would hate you to be fucking miserable. Yeah. Because you stayed with me. So that. But there was, like, a huge release with that. And I feel like things got a lot better after I came to that place. And then the second one was, was,

Take your time. We did it when we did the ketamine.

Oh, yeah, we did.

That was a definite before and after.

There was, facility opening up in Tucson. And we always have in services that our counseling center, we have a staff of, like, 15 of us. So we're always trying to bring in community resources and like, knowing what's out there. So this ketamine clinic came in and they were like, oh, here's our resources. We're going to start doing couples ketamine. And we were like, well, we don't really, you know, unless we know what it is and understand that, like, we don't really. So they're like, oh, well, will you guys go through this process with us? And that way you guys have that experience of what it will be like so that we could be a resource. If you wanted to recommend ketamine.

I mean, I'm like terrified of drugs or anything like that. I just don't do that. But I felt like, oh, this is under the supervision of a medical director. And so each and I kind of went through, five sessions of ketamine together and stuff happened that we didn't like. Stuff came out that I was just beyond. We didn't know. And so I think that changed a lot to like, it was just. Yeah.

Well, I mean, the natural question I have is sort of how like, I'm interested in this, kitchen moment, and partly because it feels really resonant for you even now. But like, if you think about before and after, what was the relationship like before? What was the relationship like after?

I mean, for me, it's like it was like so much like gripping, you know, holding, trying to hold it all together. Like trying to figure out how to react in stressful moments, how to protect Tara from, you know, family dynamics with the ex kids money. It was like everything was about me trying to, like, control everything, to kind, to somehow make it make her okay or make her happy.

And that's after. Right?

It was. That was before I was trying to control everything.

Oh yeah.

And then. And that was causing his problems because she saw me as, like, like a monster at times and like, scary and and and mad and and it wasn't that. It was just like I was think I was just like putting, like, so much pressure on myself to, like, somehow make everything okay or, and maybe hide stuff and or just or not deal with stuff. And so after it became like, I just have to be, like, open, like I just have to I have to tell her I have to trust that she can either handle it or not handle it, that if, that will, we'll deal with it or we won't deal with it like I like, you know, it's still a process, but it was like, trust. Yeah. It was like a little bit of, like, weight off, for that, you know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what you noticed.

Like, when, when was that? A year ago. Two years ago. Last week.

I would say it was like a couple years ago. Maybe. Maybe a year and a half ago. Not long.

The ketamine experience changed your experience towards me. And then it allowed you to have more compassion in those moment. I don't.

Know, I mean, it was I mean.

Which of those two that you've name, sorry came first? Did you academy cats and then have the kitchen thing or the kitchen thing came first?

Academy was.

First. Yeah. That's right.

I mean it was like.

That's a great question. I didn't I never thought of that actually.

It was mind blowing. To know what you had gone through.

Yeah.

It was like I mean it was earth shattering for you. It was earth shattering for me.

No.

And so it was like. I mean, you deserve to be happy. Thank you.

The entire the entire world has the same question, which is, what did you go through? Which, of course, you know, you can speak to or not.

Yeah. Oh, I feel like I haven't talked about this in so long. Well, so, I mean, I always I'm just going to kind of start when I was really young. I have a twin sister, Sarah, and we always, you know, we had a pretty bad environment, a lot of trauma, a ton of trauma, a ton of neglect. And I just always knew that I wanted to be a helper of some kind one day. I mean, I'm a therapist for a reason because I always had this, like, resilience. When I was younger. I started working when I was eight just to feed my sister, and I would mop floors and go get us food at the gas station. So I was always like, okay, I'm just like really strong, really resilient. I've worked with a ton of clients, right, with trauma and anxiety.

Just like not knowing I didn't know, I knew I had bad things happened to me. I didn't quite know how much I was dissociated from my trauma until ketamine. I think when you're younger, like when bad things happen, I didn't know that your brain can literally, like, cut off experiences and like, so. So I'm going through was five sessions. And the first session I was like, E.J., right is next to me. And, he's like, on this rocket ship. He's like, this is so cool. And I'm like, oh my God. Because like ketamine, like basically punches out your gatekeeper. So no matter like I was trying to, like, not cry because I wanted to cry, but I wanted to take because I wanted him to have his rocket ship experience.

But you can't like, you can't use the normal defense mechanisms or systems that you would normally use. So I just like started crying and like the first session was all about me protecting my twin sister because she looked more like my biological dad. So my stepdad would beat her worse than me, and I would be standing outside of the bedroom like, let me go into my sister. So this first ketamine was like, I just want to protect her. And I've I've held on to that, like over functioning for her for so long. So when I got out of that, I was just like, oh my God. Like, she's good, she's healthy, she's awesome. She's a teacher. She's got an awesome husband. I don't have to like, hold onto that anymore.

So it was almost like this terror, like the ketamine. Let me feel it. I didn't know how big it was. And I was like, oh my gosh, okay. That was amazing, right? To fast forward like sessions three, four and five, I'm thinking, where is my rocket ship moment? Like, I'm ready for this. I'm ready to like, oh, I'm all with God now, whatever that feeling is. And I kept going deeper into trauma. So like the first one, I was eight. Then it went to like seven. Then it went to four. And like one of the biggest things that happened and that I didn't know was I woke up from this ketamine and I was screaming out this name, you know, and they were like, who is who was that?

I'm like, I have no idea. So I, I don't talk to my mom a lot, but I called her and I was like, like, who are these people? Like, I don't even remember them. She's like, oh, I used to, like, you and your sister used to stay there a lot because they would watch kids. It was like a children's motel. And they just there was a ton of, what would you call it? Like, like.

Just, like institutional abuse. I mean, yeah.

So I would have these things remembering that I was, like, in a closet with all men. And so then I called my twin sister and she said, do you remember this place? And she's just like, I remember it, but they would. You would be napping a lot. They'd have you, like behind it or you would be napping a lot. And I said, Sarah, really bad things happened like 5 or 6. And so then, like, I'm so glad it happened because like, all of these puzzles came together like, like eating certain floor textures, like my whole life, I would like, try to avoid certain lighting. And so it it started putting pieces of the puzzle together, like the sexual abuse that happened and even like in my intimacy with each.

But it was like too much, too fast. It's almost like I did this five sessions cut a in two months, and my little body just got flooded and overwhelmed. So since then, I've been doing a ton of trauma therapy and effects work and eMDR and DBS, and it's been amazing. So I've been able to integrate all of the pieces, but it's just like it didn't know what I didn't know. And I'm so happy. I know now I but that has just created this again, like more compassion for me. Patients for each.

And they made like things under like I would just like I would get so upset and frustrated. Like if I don't have the I would wear like a certain shirt or, or why the house had to be so clean or like all these things that felt like control to me. And I knew they were anxiety, but I didn't like I didn't get it, get it. And that just like, can like blew the doors open, obviously for her, but also for me and just like understanding what's going on and, and and then having a framework for being able to like yeah just understand like innate insane moments of like wearing a pair of pants and like feeling like she's like disgusted by me. That it wasn't that. It's not that she's disgusted by me. Like there like stuff going on.

Yeah. Just this and I mean, and then I mean, as a therapist, right. Like, I have worked with so much trauma and I feel like I've done great work. I do like a lot of CBT work and like inner child stuff, but like, it's it opened up a whole new because I truly didn't recognize like I had I not done that ketamine Zak I would have gone my whole life not knowing, like it was so tucked away because it was like really bad. Like I thought I was going to die, you know, I'm five years old, six years old, and I literally think I'm going to die. Like, of course I'm going to dissociate. I don't have the brain to deal with that, but it has just I mean, I just want to know everything now. I read every book I go through, every treatment modality I can just to make sure, I get to have that experience to help others.

I know that I'm not quite at the end of my journey, but I do know that I will start specializing with sexual abuse victims when I'm through my journey. So that's really like such a a great, like resource that I can do. And I think this like, I feel like the universe, God, however you want to look at it, it gave me this at the time where I can now like, I wouldn't have been able to do this seven years ago when the twins were 3 or 4. It's like the time is now and it's so great, but I just feel like everything we've gone through, it's so we can figure it out and create that safety together. And then grow and then help others. Because, you know, when we drive past our counseling center and you see couples hugging out in the parking lot, I'm like, yeah, that came from like, us, like me wanting to get in the minivan, divorcing you because it was so hard.

But I was like, I'm not going to do that. Like, I love this man. I'm not going to leave. I'm. And right. Like how eight years later in our counseling center, we help hundreds of couples a week. And it was just because of this. Like we didn't give up on each other. And so we figured it out as much as we can and built this place in our community so that couples have a chance because when you have two therapies that are breaking down, like I that's the thing I said to each like, we've got to help other people. Like, we have to figure this out ourselves. This is really hard. This transition. But like, we have the skills and a lot of people don't.

And this is.

Like, oh.

This is all the suffering that's behind every other door. You know, there's some variation of our story. You know, there's it's it's different people and different trauma, different, you know, it's like nobody, you know, may we I think that's one of the reasons that, like, we do the podcast and everything else because because we're, for whatever reason, willing to put it out there, you know, we this is deeper than we normally go, but we're willing to be trans parent about what's going on behind our doors because of the fact we know what's going on behind everybody else's doors, because we because we've been therapists, we sat and we've heard these heartbreaking stories of these

super frustrating stories or these whatever is like, everybody's got crazy shit, behind their door, but nobody frickin knows. I mean, everybody just for the most part. A lot of times everybody assumes everybody else is like living, you know, this fantastic life that they're they don't they're not.

Yeah. Yeah, I see that a lot. But before it, before I try to transition. Tara, thank you so much. Just for, like, being willing to, like, I don't know, give that to me. To us. I just want you to know that I heard you.

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much.

And sounds really terrible. It sounds really, really terrible. Like.

Yeah.

She's, like, the strongest person I've ever met my entire life. It's like. It's crazy. It's just, I've never met somebody so incredibly strong. Like my boyfriend.

Did you, Did you know that right away? Like when you were first meeting? No, no.

No, I knew she was radiant. I mean, tarot lights up every frickin room she goes into. Like, kids begged to stay over our house every weekend, and I'm like, the Scrooge. I'm like the asshole who tries to keep them out. The kids, every room she walks into. The first time she ever walked into a room, I remember it's still. I remember at the counseling center in the staff room, she walked in and I was just like, who is this woman? Like? She is just like, she's beautiful. She's radiant. She's fun. Like everybody wants to talk to her. Everybody wants to be a part of her. I mean, that's what I was like. She is like, literally like like the I mean, she just she is a star, like, everywhere she goes.

Like, it just people revolve around her and. And so no, I had no idea. I just knew that she was just as captivating, fun, funny, goofy, like like, you know, like, like like, what was Lucy? You know, Lucy Arnaz, like, you know, you know, like stepping in the grapes. Like one time one of the first times we, like, went down to the grocery store from our, work to go get lunch, and we were, like, walking through the produce section. She picks up like an orange bonnet pepper, which is like this insanely hot pepper. And just like, I think she was, like, kind of trying to impress me. Kind of being like, oh, I'm like, you know, whimsical throws it in her mouth and then, you know, was like coughing for the next 45 minutes, you know, like, that's just her. She's just like this amazing, you know, sparkle.

Well, yes. Until. Right. Because like, before, I could manage my life like that, like in my other relationships before E.J.. Oh, like if it started to get really real and like, the grass is greener. Yeah, this has been great, but. So that's what happened. Like, when I, when that happened. And then I was in it and we were four kids in it. There was no escaping. And so I had to be in my trauma nervous system for the first time before I could escape it. And I'm like 37 now, like 38 or whatever. And so it was just, yeah, that part of me was gone. And I was like. And I blamed E.J. for bringing it on. I'm like, how dare you? Like, I didn't sign up for this Catholic twins like, this has to be your fault.

And that's been the hardest part for us at times is like, is is that that? And she misses that. Yeah. Aspect of herself. That was a lot more carefree and all and that. But then like, like so she's got separated from it. It coincides with us getting together. I miss those aspects of her. At times I feel like I've fuckin squash them out through my life. And so it's that's been really hard because, like, it's, you know, you're like rediscovering the, you know, your lightness and your joy and all of that, you know?

But I'm doing it with, you.

Know, I'm glad. I'm. I'm glad you are.

Yeah.

What about E.J.? What was the thing? What did you notice? Who was he when he. When you were becoming aware?

Well, I was just. At first I was like, he's just the most amazing, emotionally connected person. I feel so safe with him. And then when I started to be overwhelmed, he, like, backed away. Like he just went away. And I was like, what's happening? I thought you were like this Buddhist. Like all being like, you can handle everything, but you can't handle me. So then I felt like a monster, right? And little did I know about, you know, you just always kept it together for his family. Even when he was young, like he was guilt, rage and stuff like, I can't, I can't feel that. And so I said, you can't go away from me. Like, I can't feel like a monster either.

Just because I'm going through this. Like I need you to be present and you're avoiding, you know? And he was like, no, I'm not. I'm totally not defensive. I'm like, yes, you are like, trust me, I know. And it just took like years of that. And then when I started doing his own therapy, recognizing his own avoidance that he wasn't even aware of, but that that wouldn't work for me because I needed someone to let me be me and let me experience all of it and let me go through my highs and lows and that, like, if I'm going to be in a bad mood this morning, you don't have to, like, take care of that. Like, just let me be me and don't try to fix everything, you know. And I think, you know, the negative core belief for you was like, I can't be me. And I was like, you can be you. Like, don't try to fix everything I've got this. I can handle this. So what was that? He went away for me.

And that was the hardest thing in the whole wide world. But then he showed up for me by doing his own therapy and being more present. And he. You would think the way he does therapy, like, because he's so good that he just he had no idea how avoidant he truly was to the first sign of conflict or uncomfortableness. Like, if I'm experienced discomfort, it would be like, what can I do to like, make sure that you're not uncomfortable because I can't handle discomfort. And now he's like, it's all good. Like he can handle discomfort. He's sharing more feelings with me, which I love because I can handle it right. I'm pretty the strongest person you know, right? So you got to trust me with all your feelings. So I think for the first time ever, EJ is starting to share his vulnerable feelings and not having to be the Buddha keeping it all together, which I love.

But the fucking Buddhist, she called me.

Dead. I was like, I need to see something.

Your your twins are 11.

Yeah. Boy girl.

And your kids are how old?

Age 16 and 18.

What do they think? Like the twins in particular? Like what do they think about you guys? If I said, hey, tell me about your parents. Well, what would I learn?

I love them, I think they love they they they adore us. Yeah, but they think we're a little nutty, I think. Don't you think they think we're a little nutty?

I don't I wouldn't say that, no, I think I mean, they think we're fun. We're just like weekends are filled with kids activities, you know, we they see us playing, like, our Yahtzee together and having somewhat quality time. I would say they would say we need to have more quality time together.

I mean, I would, you know, don't lie. It's hard because like, I'm trying to figure out like 11 year old mind or like when they're adults and they look back on it. I mean, they'll definitely seen us struggle.

Yeah. And and but trust that because like Jojo, he's super sensitive and he'll like if he feels the first sign of discomfort, help. Like he'll try to caretaker and I and they say, Jojo, honey, mommy and daddy, we've got this. You go be a kid. Yeah. We always work through this. Couples argue. And guess what? We've been arguing for over a decade and we always work through it and we feel more connected. So now if we when we argue, it's I mean, it's so much less now, like when we go through our stuff. But Joe, like, doesn't try to caretaker us, doesn't he? He trusts now that conflict is okay. Is it still uncomfortable? Maybe. But, and then Mary, she's kind of. I feel like Joe's more of like you trying to, like, keep the peace.

And Mary is just more of like that poking the bear. But I think that they trust, I guess, to go back, I, I would say that they feel really safe, and that's huge. Yeah. They feel really safe. Like, if Mia's having something hard at school, she'll call me from this school, like, hey, mom, this is happening. What I really want to do is leave, and I'll say, you can handle this, babe, you got this. She was diagnosed with OCD, so it's been really hard for her. Yeah, she's got more of that rigidity, but she's done so much amazing work, and so I just feel like they feel safe. They also think we're, you know, nutty at times, I'm sure, but not in a bad.

Think they trust us?

No.

What? Grade it in fifth grade.

Yeah.

I hold a theory that fourth grade is the beginning of consciousness. Like if I said to each of you, like, tell me about your childhood, you would start to locate stories around the fourth grade. That's what I do. Yeah. And it's kind of when you start to make sense of who you are, it's like kind of when you make sense of yourself and then. And then when you start to think about, like, who are your parents? It's typically middle school. So I said to you guys, like, who are your parents? You would begin describing to me, the narrator would be 12, 13, 14 years old, you know? Yeah.

Yeah.

So this window of time for, for people I'm always really interested in because it's like right here between fourth grade and middle school when they're starting to form. Yeah, they're they're, articulable notions. Right? Like, we form our attachment notions for sure when we're younger. But here is they're starting to put words to it. So I'm always interested to say like, what would they say? And then of course, I want to know, like, what do you want them to say? Particularly if they're in therapy like ten years from now, the kids and they say, hey, what was it like growing up in your house? Because here comes this is the time for me.

The number one thing is like, like because I never got this, you know, like like even today, my daughter was using too much hairspray. I was like, oh, like, we're using all that hairspray. She's like, mom, that really hurts my feelings. When you judge me, I'll make you know what? I'm so sorry. You're right. I still have a boundary around how much hairspray you can use. But like that, I take accountability when I get it wrong, and I apologize and try to repair quickly when I do get it wrong. Like I love that they can see that we're not perfect and that I apologize. So I would if in ten years fast forward like, you know, my parents like my mom always I can't speak for you about my mom always said she was sorry when she was not her best self and I do.

And then I also try to, you know. Not have them be responsible for our stuff. Right. Like you go be a kid like you go to worry about that. Don't worry about this. We got this because you can see little kid trying to, like, care taken control thing. So I feel like I try to as much as I can, as much as I know, to give them the freedom to be who they were born to be, not who I want them to be out of my judgment. But I get it wrong sometimes, like with the hairspray thing, or if the shorts are too short, right? But I also know I have a empowered voice to have boundaries, and that's okay to. Sorry, I just talked a lot.

So, I think I would just wanted to say that they trusted us, that they liked us, you know, and that they felt like, safe, you know, that they weren't scared.

Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like you have the seeds or planet or at least the those, those things are in place that that feels like the home they're growing up in.

Yeah, I think so. I think I think the accountability thing is huge. I think we both very quickly hold ourselves accountable when we when we, you know, trans transgress. Yeah. And I don't think that's either of us would get much of that.

And we asked them the question because E.J., runs a boys camp back east in Maine every summer. So it's like a 17 summer. So our kids have always been, like at camp, sleepaway camp. And, you know, we're talking about like, hey, would you guys rather be with us and hang out, like, in a family summer home or be away at the sleepover camp? And they're like, we'd much rather be with you. So I'm like, that's kind of winning, right? Because I've. I was asked that question when I was their age. I'm like, get me away for as long as possible. So I guess that's like a little validation right there that they'd rather hang with us than be at a sleepaway summer camp all summer. Yeah.

On the form that you didn't get, I ask. How would you rate your relationship right now on a scale of 1 to 10?

That's like. So like.

I mean, I have my number, but I was, like, going to let you.

Let's say it on three.

Let that count us.

Down, okay? Okay.

3 to 1.

Seconds and.

We're at 7.75.

Is that I love it.

Is the average okay. But here's here's my follow up question. Why isn't it lower.

Cut for me. Because, we're both doing so much work to feel connected, to have our family be the family that feels good and connecting and loving to us. The work we do in our center on our podcast. It's just like my heart is so full that, I mean, and we still get stuck places, but we help each other get unstuck and yet there's still room. I would never want to be a ten. That's so boring, right? Perfect. This morning. But that were. Yeah. Just always growing together every day no matter what that day looks like. Like that's why it's not lower even if it's uncomfortable or we're going through financial difficulty because you own two businesses and it's really hard. Like it's still an eight. It feels good. Yeah. Eight and growing. Yeah. To 9.99999.

I think it's not lower because we've come a long way. We've come a long way.

And you have you have, you have wind at your back.

Yeah. And then and then this is like another sort of realization I had close to that kitchen moment was like, you, I'm just grateful to be with her right now. I'm grateful for what we have right now. And and I do think that there's things that we both want in our relationship that we're that we're moving towards, that are going to move us up that scale. But if this was it, that's fine. You know.

Acceptance versus resignation.

Yeah, I'm accepting where I'm accepting where we are and pretty if, if, you know, if what I have with her right now is all I get, then I'm grateful to have that.

Love that.

I like asking that question. People usually think like, why isn't it higher? And then they get to talk about the problems and I'm like, no, why isn't it lower? And then they can talk about like the winds, they're back. And I'm like, that's really good news. All that what you just said is like really good news. Or there's even if it's a three and it's not a two.

It's exactly. Yeah. Well, that's so funny because when we do, like consultations with couples before they start going to our center and it's like a 30 minute. Right. And they're telling everything what's wrong, here's what doesn't. And then I'll be like, what does work about you guys like 18 years together? And they're like frozen, like, yeah, I thought about that ever. Yeah. But it's such like a nice shift because it's like where we know where you don't want to go, but like, what has worked. So I love that question.

Well, I really appreciate you guys coming on I like you I like your story. I'm glad to have it. I really feel honored that you were, willing to be vulnerable with me and with, with the universe. So, Yeah, I really appreciate you just sitting down and telling me a little bit more of what it's like to be married to a couple Serapis. Or married to a therapist or just married to each other.

You know, thank you for the gift of having us on and talking like I was.

Feeling safe enough to like for. I mean, there's not many right people I would feel safe with interviewing me to share that, trust me. Well.

Healing from the minute. Like I got the email kind of saying, like what you were thinking of doing. It felt like, oh, that's going to be nice. Yeah. You know, and I think it's like that. I think that, for me, the best feeling is being who I am, you know, being authentic. And it was like it felt like it was an opportunity to just like, I don't have to, like, be thinking about the marketing or the promotion. Yeah. Or the how do I tie? But this person actually just wants to learn, about me, about, so, I mean, I think it's part of, like, why people love go to therapy, you know, it was just like, okay, I just get to be me. And I get to be honest. Rather than that. That feels nice. Yeah.

Cool. Thanks for the tears today, Zach.

Right on how I feel, I feel lighter.

I know me to feel connected.

And what's the most compelling thing in the world is like, you know, that's what moved me. I background theater and film and TV and music and then get it. And and therapy was like the most compelling thing of all. What is real, what's really going on is interesting, what somebody like curates and puts out there of, like, our perfect life and Bobby and all that. I'm like, who could give a shit? Like, I could care less about the crystal blue frickin water or the ear.

Yeah.

And then, Bobby, what happened when you got back to the hotel room and you were both drunk and fucking acted like assholes to each other.

And your cameras were off?

Yeah, yeah, that's that's interesting.

I do.

Have you guys ever done couples therapy together?

Oh. Do you remember when, this is what's so hard, Zach. So we went to one. She was like, you guys are sober because people know us in Tucson, right? In our community. Yeah, we're very well-respected with the work we do in the model we created. And she's like, you guys are so brave to come here. I was like, dude, that just right then, like, completely threw me off. So then we went to another one dinner. But what we really do is like, the ketamine was pretty.

We went to, stand tac and retreat and stand together. That was like doctor stands.

Amazing.

That was pretty amazing and and really great for us.

It was amazing. But then all of these other couples, because we were the therapists, too.

There they were. They wanted everyone to go to dinner with us every night.

We just need some. But doctor, Doctor Watkins amazing. He's been on our podcast like three times. Yeah. And he's just like a wonderful man.

Well, yeah, we've only had, like, brief spells of couples therapy, but God, you know, I mean, there's never been a shortage of deep conversations between the two of us. Yeah.

Because after every one of my individual sessions, I call him when he has therapy. Call me. Yeah, I think I'm just trying to go through all my trauma like I did the DVR. I did the eMDR. Now I'm going through IFS work, which has been awesome. But yeah, and I wanted to ask Sara not to change the subject, but you have a book out about, like, the alphabet.

Yeah, I published three books. The first one, that alphabet book was in 2014. The Gottman Institute asked me to write a series of blog posts for them. So we chose an alphabet model. So every other week. So 26 weeks. Yeah, I got to I wrote a different topic. And Gottman based stuff and published it on their blog. And then when we were done, we had enough content for a book. So we just turned that into like, so you can you can read it. What I'm trying to tell you is you can read it for free if you just like, go to the Gottman block. But, it's basically a, research topic, but for people who have short attention spans, so and then every topic, of course, is in alphabetical order. So the first one is anger, I think, and the second is betrayal. And the third one is criticism and contempt. I think there are two. There are four horsemen.

That I know.

Through the whole what's that.

Is I intimacy.

I, I forget what I is for. It might be. Let me see.

I just thought it'd be cool to interview you on our podcast because we always have guest speakers, especially in the field.

As for imagination, oh.

Like that? Yeah.

It's a little off the beaten path. Like I tried not to. That's why A is for anger. Because I didn't want the first book to be A is for agreement or a is for, you know, it might be argument, but I the first three chapters are kind of like heavy loaded.

Wow.

Yeah. I'd be glad to come talk to you. I wrote a second one. It's called the Marriage Therapy Journal, which, I published, but both of those first two I published, self-published. They, but that one came out in February of 2020. So I had, I had I, I wrote it published it, and then the like I was a homeschool teacher, like, I couldn't I didn't think about it at all.

Yeah.

And then the third one Laura and I wrote together, who was my podcast host, and it was that one actually was published by Zeit Geist, I think, which is a Penguin gig, but, that one is the one I feel least emotionally connected to. It's just it's, it's basically a workbook. It's an activity for a couple. So. And that was called reconnect I think. So, yeah. I mean.

Then, I'll just send you an email because whatever you're like, whatever you feel really connected to, whether it's, you know, working with couples with infidelity or whatever, I'll just maybe send you an email and then would love to have you on.

I'm happy to do it. Yeah. It's, I don't tend to, ever be promoting something. What I'm promoting is in general is authenticity.

And yeah, that's normalizing. That's what our audience loves. Like, what made you want to become little stories and what do you see? And yeah, we love that. And we just really enjoyed talking with you today. So you never.

Yeah. Yeah. We I hit record again in case we captured anything sexy for like behind the scenes or whatever, but,

It's the best. It's the biggest benefit of doing this is this is meeting. Yeah, a cool person. Yeah.

It's like I got so many cool people that.

Oh, my God.

You did you interview Kyle and Ariel?

Yeah, yeah, just a few weeks ago.

There are we they were our guest on our podcast and we started working with them. We hired them. Oh, cool. So we're going to April to.

Drag us to the Valley of Despair business wise and figuring out how.

To. We're good. They're better business people for like, oh, you want to take two months of vacation a year? That's totally fine. Oh, you know, like we're just.

Yeah. No, I, they were the same thing. I was like, I would, I'll talk to you, but I definitely want to hear about your life, not your.

Yeah.

Your package, you know, so we talked about it a little bit, but that one just came out. I think maybe just a couple weeks ago.

That two weeks ago, I think.

Oh, yeah. That's so.

So yeah. And I hopefully you know, I want, I want obviously kind of the viral moment where you get like where like Dax Shepard and Kristen Kristen Bell want to come on and talk to me. I'm air separate air like that's Oh yeah. That's kind of the mini dream. I think I might have, but I mostly I just enjoy, like, not being bored. And so, yeah, being able to talk to people that have a story to tell is really cool.

How big is your practice? How many clients you see a week?

I'm pretty full, like, I, I'm here in Seattle and I, I work just for myself. And I have, I don't know, maybe I do 20, 20 couples a week.

I say you're.

Full. Let's go. I'm pretty full. And then I've got the podcast and I teach for the Gottman Institute, and I teach for Relational Life Institute. Terry Reals gig.

Oh, yeah.

So I teach for both of those at a pretty regular cadence. So I got pretty full plate. But again, I'm never bored. And my wife is the same thing, right? Like, hey, aren't you supposed to have figured it? All this stuff out already? Like, aren't you the expert?

No. But lifelong thing.

I always tell people, like, I don't have a. They say you must have a perfect marriage. I yeah, I don't have a perfect marriage, but I don't have any excuses either, so.

I love it. Yeah. Well, it's so great to meet you. And then I'll just reach out to you. Yeah. Sure thing. You know how to file? We always record on Friday mornings, usually, but we're super open. We've got our little studio here so we can make it work whenever. Awesome. Cool.

Yeah. Good to be with you guys. I will, of course, give you a heads up when this is going to go. I think it's I think I actually already have a date, but I don't remember what it is. It's going to be 1 to 3. It'll be in the next month. That sweet.

Isaac. It was really nice to meet you.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.