The Enneagram, Marriage, and Finding Joy in the Mess with Christa and Wes Hardin

So are you a counselor or a coach or something?

Yes, I am, a little I'm a little bit of mostly what I am in my day job is I'm a therapist, a couples therapist. So I see couples in Seattle, Washington. I have a pretty full practice. I'm busy. I'm what's called a certified Gottman therapist. And then I'm also a certified relational life therapist. So that's Terri Reals material. If you haven't seen Terry yet. I think I'm the only one in the world who is certified in both methodologies, which is which is not going to last for long, but it's a little badge of honor that I have at the moment. And then, I have with my partner Laura, who is my teaching partner, not my wife.

Been, running marriage therapy radio for about seven and a half years, and she just retired. She just decided she was ready to be a mom and a endurance athlete and focus on other parts of her life. She's. I'm 51. She's about 40. This was kind of ready to do something else. And so, now I'm kind of on my own. So I have, I have this podcast, I have my practice, which is my main daily gig. And then I, you know, I hang out with my wife and my kids. My kids are adults. I have an 18 year old and a 22 year old. So, yeah, that's me in a nutshell. Yeah.

Sounds like a blessed life, man. Doing a lot of good things.

You know, I'm willing to say that now in a way that I wasn't willing to say a few years ago. I think I was always kind of a doomy, gloomy sort of, like your kind of character in my life. And I just kind of, I don't know, the last 5 or 6 years, I've just kind of been like, it doesn't do me any good. I'm not into it. I don't want to, you know, and it's it's just been fun to kind of go, all right, I'm going to enjoy the blessings that I have available. And, and that's going to be what I do. Yeah. So that's good.

I love that shift. It's beautiful.

What about you guys? You know, I who are you? Like, who am I talking to? You? Go ahead. I have a I am I, I did I on purpose. I didn't do a lot of pre research because I'm trying this thing where I just really want to talk to people about their life, without talking about their job or their book or their, you know, their, their energy or their nonprofit or whatever it is. And so, but in my imagination, you have three children, am I right?

Yeah.

Oh, I don't know why I thought that, but I was like, I have three kids. And are they young?

They're metal. They're, 19, 17 about to graduate and 12.

That is, that is anti my expectation because I thought you somehow I thought we were meeting at this time because your kids were going to be napping. And then.

One of them said, dance. One of us had a birthday party, and one of them's downstairs. So you weren't that far.

Yeah, well, our dog's napping.

He's always. Yeah.

So.

Very cool.

So, marriage therapist turned coach. And what you can tell about you.

You sure yet? So I'm married to Krista. We have three kids, and I'm, a medical provider. I am a physician assistant and family practice.

Right. And how long have you guys been married?

Long time since 2001.

Yeah. So we're heading 24 years of of marriage this year and 25 years since engaged. And then, like, we've been together since we were 16.

Oh, wow. Yeah. What's that like?

Started dating in high school.

Yeah.

What do you have a story about that? Like, how do you make sense of that for yourselves?

We we feel like it's made the most sense the whole way. And it hasn't made much sense to break it off at any point. We've just felt really blessed to have found each other. We've seemed to be, good for each other and also good for others, like even since the beginning.

Right?

You know, like, it's it's it's fun how God has just kind of said, you guys are a thing and you're going to do a lot more for the world together than if you were apart. And, so we've just, always kind of felt that. And so we've had these little tiny windows here, and they're like every normal human beings where we felt, you know, we've questioned whether we should be together. And after talking it out, you know, I just know that even just flirting with the idea doesn't seem like this is the way we want to go and not livable, you know? So we're one flesh, and that's that's the way we hope to always be till death do us part. And. Yeah. So that's, that's we're so grateful for that. But yeah, even, even at the beginning. So we, we got together at 16 and we had really good it.

Were 45.

Okay.

So we just yeah. He was seeing me with another boyfriend. We were so young, obviously. And he goes, I want that one day. But he did not know I want that one day. So yeah, boyfriend went off to college and he was a nice person, but he just was like it wasn't the right person. Like we were saying we were. And so when he left for college and we broke up, he started to pursue me. This May get a bit into maybe some of our conversation might go the Enneagram direction today.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was just like, we're not the same type at all. And as well.

You know, that at 16 were you.

Aware I couldn't oh yeah. I was like, I didn't know. And but yeah, just we're not the same type. So I kind of really ran from him a lot. Yeah. Because I was like, were your Bible boy? I'm grunge girl. I, I'm not from Seattle, but I had the vibe going good. I was like, I'm sorry, I'm an existentialist over here. Just please let me be. I think you're a great human. But anyway, I finally gave. I open my heart, which is hard for me to do sometimes, and especially if I don't trust someone. And he was the kindest soul that I just like. Okay. You're safe, you are good. And I want to stay out later. And I called my mom that first night. Can we just stay out later? And so it was like so good that he was that personality type to drive in and pursue because we never would have made it.

The way I found you guys is that, you you I think you found marriage therapy radio.

Yeah, I do, I do, yeah, since that's my thing.

And I was like, oh, that's cool. Enneagram and marriage. So you have a specialty and understanding the Enneagram, which we've talked about a few times on the podcast. But when it tell me, tell me what it is like, I'm a third grader. Like, how do you make sense of it to like, just the the person who's never heard the word before?

Yeah. Well, I tell people, there's a whole school of marriage therapy research that's beautiful. And that's what I did my clinical practice in. But I also began to discover the nuance of couples needed some more specificity, especially now. I've been working with couples for 20 years, and so learning the Enneagram gave me a deeper dive much quicker. It's a personality, just like any other of the personality type sort of groups you could find, like Myers-Briggs or obviously in more clinical settings, MMPI, etc.. And so it's just a great handy, I would say, elegant way to give people a type if they find they are a fit to one of the nine Enneagram types, and then we immediately get to the space of noticing their gift and their shadow and their relationship so much quicker then I might be able to do if I was just using family systems in general, marriage tools, etc..

Some structure right?

Yeah. So it's it's a personality tool. It's personality typing tool. And again, I, I'm familiar quite familiar with the Enneagram, but it, the way I would describe it to people, is it there's a sense that you have this kind of home base or a home operating system. It's one of nine types. And the way I always describe that being valuable is that when you have more vocabulary, you have more capacity to describe like kind of what's going on between, yeah, whatever dynamic is there. So I, I'm an eight, I'm married to a two. I don't know what you guys have going on. Awesome.

I'm a one and she's seven.

Yeah okay.

Primarily.

Yeah. And you how do you how do you describe that. Like like that's foreign language to people. If I said hey what's it like being a one married to a seven. How do you explain that in just like general like everyday terms.

Yeah. So opposites attract was a for sure part of our story because I love to have joy and freedom and expression and almost that existential questioning going on at all times. And then.

Yeah, so so there's nine personality types in the Enneagram and they each have different, you know, ways of kind of looking at things and what makes them tick. And so, so for one, you're usually more systematic, more, exacting rule following, you know, detail noticing, you know, this kind of thing, you know, like people might say, like a Type-A personality or something, you know, that's like the stereotype.

They're also called, like the perfectionist in, which is I don't think that helpful. But, you know, it's somebody who likes who likes rules, who likes structure, who likes order. And, and they like goodness, you know, and that's, that's my basic personality structure. I feel like that really matched me. And along with that are going to be some, some gifts and, and also some pitfalls that I would be more prone to than somebody in a different personality type, like maybe a type seven, you know.

Yeah, we're a type seven is, stereotypically not someone who notices details very easily and, but who is very creative, who's very, spontaneous, who really likes looking forward to something new and next, you know, so not typically the traditional type you know, or conservative type, more of a progressive, forward moving. Let's explore new things type and so yeah, that's those are very different, you know, and can make for either a tug of war where you're pulling in different directions or, or, wonderful compliments, you know, to each other, you know, which is the way we like to look at it, you know, so it's that I really need in my life, and she needs to.

Yeah.

I have figured that out for her, too.

Yeah. So tell me how that shows up for you. Like on a Wednesday, for better or for worse. Like, how does that how did the two of you bump into each other in ways that are challenging? And it doesn't have to be strictly because of your type, but like, what is it? What's a typical sort of up and down? Season like for the two of you?

Yeah. Well, this is kind of easy to talk about because right now we're in the season with teens and it's very easy to see the differences. We both love fun. That's something we both have a in the Instagram world a line or an arrow to. So we do very well with fun with our teenagers. It's a no brainer that if we have free time, we're going to want to. It's local. Do something fun, travel. Do something fun. All the kids, teenagers, they love that too. But when we're trying to get the job done, we're going to do it differently. He's going to say, I want an earlier bedtime, more traditional time for husband and wife to go to bed together. I'm going to be like, I'm just getting my energy up after a long day.

I'm ready to relax, kind of sprawl out. So I would say on a Wednesday we might hit that rut, we might not if we're both doing our like he said, expansiveness practices where I'm saying, like, let's try to balance out for a few nights a week that we go to bed a little earlier together, and then a few nights a week, we allow ourselves the freedom to to do the different things. So and I think that the marriage research lately has been so much more friendly to that, to not being as rigid like, you must go to bed together at 9:00. We we do sleep in the same bed. But yeah, I was just thinking like that a Wednesday.

So bedtimes would be one of those areas where it comes in.

Yeah, yeah.

Anything else you would add?

Yeah. I mean, so but she helps me like, let's just stick with the bedtime since up, but like. Yeah. Can you please tell her how important it is to go to bed at a reasonable time? Which just. I need some support here, but. No, I'm just kidding. But but. Yeah, so I work in medicine, so I'm always thinking about health, you know? And do you know how important it is for your brain to clear out waste and move things from short term to long term memory and your immune system, all this stuff. So I'm trying to stay healthy for all of us. So I try to keep us, you know, at a reasonable bedtime. But then at the same time, you got to live a little bit, you know what I mean? And there are harder days where I need to to watch that one extra episode of whatever it's like, you know, and, which is a really great show for ones and sevens to watch together. By the way.

Are you and by the way of this, do you know about the the like, the kind of the secret in psych?

Oh, the pineapple secret.

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Every single episode has a pineapple in it somewhere.

That's great.

You know that? You like. Yeah. You like the show too?

I've. I've watched, I don't know, a handful of episodes. My daughter, one of my daughters, was pretty into it for a season, but, this time, first kids.

Some of the kids.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you know, so. So yeah, there's got you. You have that that tug in each direction that's good for each other. You know, I'm, I'm helping to keep her healthy and she's helping to keep me healthy in other ways. You know, emotionally, because you got to have that. You got to have some brain candy at the end of the day mentally, you know, and, so that's always very good. But but then, yeah, throughout the day, I mean, I'm doing my thing. I will go to work, you know, I get up early and and go to my job, which is more structured because I have this patient load and I'm doing these same kinds of cases. And, and then her day is working from home. And she's being creative in making these podcast episodes and, and, Instagram posts and, and writing articles and stuff like that.

And so it's very there's a, it's set up well for somebody who's more of a type seven to have a little more adventure in their day to day life. And, so we go off and do our own things in those ways, and then we come back together in the evening and of course, she has dinner on the table at 630, exactly as is good and right and biblical.

Yeah. Oh, no, I'm kidding. Yeah. For but it sounds like, yearly, you lean in a little bit to the part of the one personality that that appreciates precision and excellence and rightness and wrongness like that. You you get that part which I want from my medical professional. Like, I want that person to be like, yep, this is the thing that you're you know, I don't know if I necessarily want it for my, you know, for my podcast. So but whatever it is, what it is. Right, right. You're okay. You told me that your kids are teens. You said 19.

17 and 12.

19, 17, 12. And, just, I mean, I, I've been lately saying with my 18 and 22 year old that parenting young adults is harder than parenting young kids. Like, how do you how do you think about parenting those guys right now like to do? Have you have you evolved the way you think about it as they've gotten older? Like what? What is that journey been like for you? Gosh.

I think we're not quite as far along as you are yet. I think we're going to see some of those when our kids have relationships with other people. I really do. They have.

But they're not dating their future husband.

Right. Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

So we're not like us.

I know we always do that. Well, what.

Would you do if they came home and they were like, oh, I'm getting married. This guy, what would I, I don't know, are the girls going?

He would be okay.

Yeah.

It's tense, you know, if it was a really. Yeah. I mean, when they finally agreed to arranged marriages like we've been trying to convince for the last several years next, you.

Know, but. Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, you know, that I would want them to be, really thoughtful, prayerful and patient, you know, in selecting somebody. We actually I pray for them every morning as they walk by their doors. I stop every day. And I pray specifically for that because of how important know that is going to be for the rest of their lives. You know, it's a huge decision, you know, and I feel like it was not like it's kind of luck, but it was also, you know, divine providence that we ended up together because when you're 16, like, how can you make that kind of a decision? You know what I mean? You know nothing. I still know nothing at 45. But but, you.

Know, kids all the time when they when their relationships with their with their they're both dating guys right now and they're asking me this other thing, I go, this is our practice. It's just practice. Like, you don't like just just practice. Yeah. Just don't worry about it. Just, you know, but he but but they and just it's just practice, you know, just keep playing keep trying stuff out.

So if they can keep that mindset that would be great. It's, you know without slipping into taking it, you know, way too seriously. It's it could happen fast.

You guys are practicing right now. Do you think is that a thing that you say about your relationship?

Yeah. We're still learning and practice.

With each other.

But we don't say it like that. We're just still learning, though. We say we're learning how to learn to be more expansive. I think that's the word we use a lot, because we know the potential is so much greater when we work with our partner strengths. Instead of just the typical fundamental attribution error of like, I'm a little healthier, they're a little less healthy. So I think we really try hard to lean in to like, okay, I see where you're coming from. It's really, really hard for me to do that because that's not who I am at the core. Right. And that's been really huge for us, is knowing for.

You, Chris seven or you like is that you just don't have it. You're not as good at that. What would you call it? Empathy.

I would say.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like when you say that, what are you what are you describing?

I mean, I'm saying I can't always put on what he's asking me to put on you know, in terms of a new behavior. That's a very one ish behavior. But I can usually relate to why. And I think that's become, of course, a helpful thing versus thinking, oh, I'm right, he's wrong. Now I know more about his core motivations as a one. He wants to do the good in right thing, but I may not agree that that's the good. And right thing. And so learning to find my voice respectfully, but also when he does have something that is good and right and that resonates with me to put that on. And it's hard because, you know, this is my partner's style.

I wasn't surviving this way when I grew up, but they have found some success here. I see it in their lives and I want to have it like he said, with my joy and me with his order. Me see, those things are good, but they're much harder for us to naturally and intuitive naturally.

That's the trick.

So it's like we have to love each other for who we are now without any change, and each agree we're both going to try to change toward the best of not only each other's gifts, that the best of your gifts stack is an eight. We want all the Enneagram type. We don't want to just be a.

Zero.

Or a one.

Yeah.

So we're always growing I mean this is this is one of the great things about being married period. You know, I mean you're, you're pulled out of yourself. You have to, you know, and grow in ways that are not always fun. You know, they could be quite painful. But it's good for you. You know, it's not just about being happy, but being holy, you know, to to to become better in that way. So I feel like, you know, we do try to keep learning, what you, what you naturally bring to the table. I don't naturally perceive about the world, you know, but if I see sometimes through trial and error, you know, over the years, that's actually could be a good thing for me. Then I start yielding to that, and I start growing in that direction, and I start to it starts to kind of rub off on me, you know.

And we recently thought about it in terms of like light, you know, it's like a white, one has this little light of mine shining in a particular wavelength, you know, and she has a different kind of, of a glow. And then together, we have a unique glow in the world, you know, and you can almost tell when somebody has been like, this is a type one guy, but I can tell he's probably been married to a seven because he's got this seven glow to him. You know, it's like this. You can tell it's rubbed off on him, you know what I mean? And same for her. Like she's probably got some one ish glow on her. Yeah. You know, and then and then when we're together, we have this unique way that we can can bless the world that's different than an eight in a two. Did you say shoot it two.

Yeah. Yeah yeah.

Yeah. Like A28 glow would be different than A17 glow versus a 4 or 5 glow or whatever. You know what I mean. So but it's yeah, that's been fun. It's been fun to learn in that way. And, and to grow in that way. Life is a lot less painful. When you do grow, you know, I feel like, I've told Krista many times, like, we're especially as a one. Like I'm committed. Like, this is till death do us part. Because her. Partly because it's the right thing to do. Like, I'm going to be true to my commitment to you in my vow before God and the witnesses that were there. I'm not going anywhere. But I want to be happy. I want to live happily ever after, you know, not just stuck together right?

Calm like you're not, you know, with me. Unless you're grappling.

Right? Yeah.

And same for you.

I know that's actually healthy.

But. But it's so much better. Life is so much better when you when. And so the Enneagram has been one of the tools that helped us to know how to grow in a very specific way. Because you see, like these arrows in these directions and these qualities that aren't natural to you, that you could grow in. And you can you have some structure there, you know, it's you're not just feeling your way through it as much and having the same argument over and over for 23 years or whatever, you know, like, which we did for a long time till we discovered this system. Like we had these same arguments. And now now we can avoid a lot of that. You know, it's been great.

That's interesting. I want to pull on that rabbit trail or I want to pull on that thread, but I want to also go back to something you said about just your your vows. There you are. You're standing up. You get married when you're held 21, so you're 21. You're standing in front of all your people and you're saying these vows, and I don't know about you, but like, I got married at 24, I think, but I had no idea what I was saying. Like, I mean, these words, they meant nothing to me like that. I understood them conceptually, but, Do you what do you think it's like? What is 45 year old you have to say to 21 year old you, if you were, if you had the ability to kind of pull you aside right before the the wedding, I mean, like, hey, I want to tell you this 1 or 2 things, like, what do you think you would what?

I don't know what what is new or older? You or more. Vance, you have to say to that those younger versions.

That's a really big question. It's a good question.

Yeah, yeah.

So I mean, just like thinking off the top of my head, off the cuff, you know, like I would say, I would say, right.

Right. Yeah. What have.

We learned? I would definitely yeah, I would say.

And would you listen to any 21 year old? Listen, if if 45. Yeah. Year old. You walked into the room and said, hey, I did a couple things with 21 year old. You be like, Yeah, I got this. Don't worry I.

Know, I know and I think, I think we respond a lot better to the carrot than we do the stick you know. Okay. I think that in general we don't, we don't always avoid punishment or avoid pain as well as we pursue pleasure and reward. And so I think I would focus on that and I would say you're going to have a lot of really amazing times.

I would say, like, if you can really focus on those really wonderful ways that you guys have fun together, you know, the really creative things that you're going to be able to bring to the table and offer to the world. It's it's going to be you're going to avoid a lot of pain. Just focus on those things, spend a lot of time on them together, you know, and and energy and effort to developing them, so that you're not thinking about, you know, the things you're frustrated about, the things you might be missing out on in life, you know, because you're only 16 or 21 at the time or whatever, you know, like, yeah, I, I would, I would say that you know. Yeah. And so that. Yeah. Because we've, we've done that in some ways, but not always, you know, and when we have, it's really blessed us.

Yeah.

You know, I think those are some of the things that has kept us together in that there's really been how God's used us in the world, you know, the most to bless other people all over the place in the ways we've come together to be, to have fun in creative ways together, you know, and to make stuff, you know, using your creativity and my editing skills.

Time and again, we make mystery dinner games together. We just host parties. We travel, like we said. Really? Well, we've I would say more than traveling because who doesn't travel? Well, because everyone loves the vacation. But like, we are good with children together. We've been part of raising 18 to 19 and even 20. I think we recently counted nieces and nephews, but our friends kids are always at our house. And so I just think that it's. Yeah, there's a light that we carry of joy together when we're healthy. But for me, I would tell my old self, that I would not hold West to such an idol. I think that I was when I watched my old video, I tell the girl like, you know, stop. You are ridiculously like, this is a wonderful human, but you've got to stop thinking he's going to be perfect.

And it is perfect. We're both ideals as sevens and ones or sevens, ones and fours that are ideals. And yeah, we just.

Got one of those two. I got a four in my house.

Okay, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Then it's like he is, you know, separate out what you want, what you hope for, from who he is, and you'll find you got really lucky and blessed with this man, but never worship him. And of course, I would have told you that. No, I don't at all. But when I look back and I see the codependency, I'm like, you were slobbering.

Yeah I think I was and not that I want to put words in your mouth, but I'm thinking about like what would I actually like. What would you do. Yeah. I mean you'd have to say something like hey by the way you guys are still married in 30 years. Like, so you don't just understand that part. By the way, you also have three kids by the time you're 45, so, you know, so you got it. Like, you know, I mean I mean it would blow your mind, but okay. So I was having the same conversation with a friend a recently, and he turned this question around in a way that I want to ask you, because I've never done it before. But do you think that 21 year old you or 16 year old you has something to say to 45 year old you? Like is there a lesson that they, that they have for you that maybe you've forgotten or that you haven't, you know, that you've, that has gone atrophied somehow.

Yeah I know I'll start with this one if that's okay. I think that because I was so open about my emotions and so romanticized and I've become such a thinking type seven in the fullness over we already had. We never said this, but tons of trauma before marriage and then extended family trauma after marriage. That weighed on us. And I think I just went into my personality thinking, planning type so much that sometimes he'll be more of a seven than me. More fun or even, I think the romanticized passion of, like, really just open heartedness toward him that I could say, like, I know I get it that you don't need to worship him. And thank you for reminding me of that, but don't close your heart to him.

You know, that is something that I would really. I need to hear it. My friends are here to tell me that all the time. He tells me that because I'm always here for fun. But when it comes to open heartedness, I think you really have to. If that's not your natural style, which it's not for me, you have to make it a practice. You have to cultivate it. Because if you just let it be there, like, you know, from all your medicine you do with people, it's almost like it's, it's almost like a disease. It can just atrophy and you can be like, okay, we're just in our rhythms and I protect my heart.

So that's a good way to put it with the yeah, I didn't think about it like a part of your body that you're trying to make grow.

Yeah.

You know, this these traits, these, these qualities, these virtues, you know, like, you really need to actively exercise them or your body, your, your mind or your personality will let them atrophy. So yeah I think thinking like 16 year old me would probably I don't know, I mean they might say don't forget like the things that I think and believe are good that I've experienced are good. Don't forget those things.

Yeah.

You know, because as time passes, it's really easy to do that, you know? Just don't forget the magic of these experience, these experiences that you've had. You know, these last, you know, several months or. Yeah, or however much it was, you know, you maybe even, you know, don't forget things that, I had heard and learned from people that were much more prominent in my life at that time, but that are unknown. Yeah, they're they're they're they're gone now. Passed away or they I just don't see them or talk to them. That might be useful to because if you, you know, it's out of sight, it's sometimes out of mind and so.

Yeah.

That's helpful.

Yeah. I don't know. It's helpful. I'm always I'm always trying to figure out like what? You know, what is this? What is it all for? Or, you know, what's it all for? You know, what are we doing this for? And, it seems like if we're not collecting life lessons along the way, it doesn't make too much sense. And then what's really edifying, and I don't know if you guys have had this experience yet, is to is to try and teach your kids stuff. And then, you know, my kids have never learned a single thing until they decided they were ready. But then, like my my older daughter comes back from college and she's starting to tell me things and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I knew that.

I told you that like five years ago or yeah, that's the thing, you know? So just, I feel like I need to be patient. Maybe, like, like 16 year old me made it to tell 51 year old me to, like, just slow it down a little bit, be patient and don't don't try and get it all done at once. So.

That makes differentiation.

Yeah, I'm trying to take that on for my kids. Yeah. It's. And so you use the buzzword and I want to just visit it for a second. This idea that you had trauma before and there's this trauma effort and, have you guys done ever marriage couple. Have you done marriage therapy before.

A couple.

Times. Well what was that like for you.

We had one amazing experience, one average and then one poor.

Like like the what is it, the three bears we've had.

Three times. We've done three different.

Year.

I think they were all pretty short lived. They could have been longer. I think part of it was resistance from me more than once at least. If I don't like. And I tell this to my patients every day, you know, because I definitely have at least a couple patients every day that I have to refer for counseling for anxiety or depression because that's like, everybody, you know.

It's in the wind right now. Yeah. You know.

But but I tell them, listen, counseling can be very powerful, but it has to be somebody who really actually knows what they're talking about. And who you have a good connection with.

100%.

So and you don't always find that combo right away.

So

And so I think we had the very first time we did some therapy, it was good. It was still even then I felt like, not the very best connection, but it was still pretty good and it was helpful. I feel like, you know, it blessed us. And, but the other two times were not that helpful.

Yeah, yeah.

But I believe in it. I mean, obviously, you know, she's. Yeah. Less so many. I've watched it happen. We actually own a counseling center where we have other therapists work, you know, with us, and, I believe in and I know that we have needed it and that we might need it again in the future, and I'm open to that. You know, because, yeah, we're human.

So, Kristen, let me ask you this. I tend it when I'm supervising, other clinicians, and they're wanting to figure out. So I'll ask you one of my typical supervision questions. So if you're on them airplane and, you know, somebody says, hey, what do you do? And you're like, I work with couples, I'm a couples therapist or coach or whatever. And they go, oh my God, what's the secret? Like, what is it? What's the deal? And you only got like a little bit of time. Yeah. What is it? What do you tell them? What, what you. What is the heart of the work for you and I.

I really think at the heart of it, our partners have something to teach us. And if we allow ourselves to learn from them, that will be so blessed. And I think that I would also just add fun. Make sure you have fun date nights. Those are just I mean, you're going to do the hard work. You might as well also add the fun. You cannot have one or the other. It has to be both.

So I'm sitting with you on the plane and I go, what's the secret? And you say two things. Number one, it's, let your partner influence you. Is that what you said? Let your partner refer to you. And the second one is, don't forget to have a good time while you're doing it.

All correct?

Yeah.

You said it really better, though.

Well, I don't know. I it's, that's the job we're in, right? People. People tell you stuff and then you go, is this what you mean? Yeah. This is what you're trying to do, is what you're trying to communicate. Is this what you're trying to say? Terry Rio, who's one of my, you know, mentors, he likes to, when he's doing therapy, he. One of the things he always talks in there is. Did I get that right? Did I get that right? So I say blah, blah, but do I get that right? And he, you know, if he got it wrong, of course, or if I get it wrong and people go, no, no, no, it's this instead. Like, okay, so it's really a, it's my, I'd like to try and see if I got it right before I, before I run away with any of my assumptions.

So good. And I know Westwood love Terry real style. He has to be in his field all the time, but it's amazing that he mentors you.

Yeah, well, Terry at the moment, as you might imagine, is, spread pretty thin. But I'm fortunate to be kind of in the. I teach for the institute. I teach for early. So, he, he regularly kind of is in meetings with us telling us, like, how to sharpen our saws, I guess is this is the phrase. So, yeah, it's been really fun. Well, what's what's next for you guys? What's what's coming up? What's the what's on the horizon for the hardens?

We have a new book that I'm writing about Campbell's work on something that's Enneagram based, but it's not really at the same time, it's the instincts and desires of couples. Instead of nine types, there's only three. And so I'm having a lot of fun. We already had fun doing the work of this ourselves. It was sort of our own therapy that we did over a year, where we balanced out our self preserving and family preserving instinct, our sexual instinct and our social instinct, and spending a year on that every week balancing that out together even got us more in line.

We're always going to be doing our Enneagram work, but this gives us this beautiful root system and baseline to make sure we're taking care of ourselves, each other, and then socially as well. And that is something I want to bring to the general public, not just this little Enneagram view, because I think it's missed a lot. And marriage therapy is that self element, and social. It's all about the 1 to 1. Right. So, so that's on my horizon. And then lately he's been having some fun, which of course is a one. He needs clearing. Yeah. And he's been you can share what you've been up to.

You have been having fun doing my own creative, works. So, I, one of the things that I used to be a science teacher. And so I was really into, the intersection between science and faith. Like the history of science from a Christian perspective. The philosophy of science, like the underpinnings, you know, that go into how we can even do science being supported by the Christian worldview. And then and then the evidences for God from creation. And so I used to go around, you know, speaking on that and developing resources for that, and I put it on the back burner when I went into medicine. But I've been, getting into it again and having a lot of fun building a website and a bunch of resources for science teachers again, and and then doing some writing. So writing, this is great. Non-fictional book, you know, putting all this stuff together and then a sci fi novel because.

So, yeah.

Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, it's not like Christian is just for anybody, but there is going to be some elements of what's out there. What's the movie? It's kind of like contact.

Yeah. It's like the story is going to be maybe a blend between some different styles, you know, like, Carl Sagan's contact, 2001 Space Odyssey by Arthur C Clarke and, and even, C.S. Lewis The Space trilogy. I don't know if you ever read those.

Yeah, yeah.

So kind of kind of mixing some of those elements together. But but writing my own story, you know. Yeah. So that I can do, like, Lewis and communicate some of these very important, truths in another way, you know, because we all really respond well to stories. Sometimes the same message will really hit home a lot better that way. Yeah. And so it's been really fun to think it through and also to, to nerd out with, using AI to, do research. I've been having so much fun talking to Gemini, and the commute home and sometimes Chris to get jealous about.

Now I like in the car and you like, talk with your mouth and you're like, hey, Gemini, like on the commercials are he does it. Yeah, yeah.

Just turn it on. And then you just have a conversation like. And it's I'm asking, like, really nerdy stuff, you know, like, yeah, you know.

What about.

Isaac Newton? Like, I want to know more about his his personal life. Like, why didn't he marry? Did he ever was he autistic? You know, like, was that, you know, just like, different questions and, and then about, like, really advanced science, too, because I'm not, you know, an astrophysicist, but I'm writing about one. And so having it broken down like you asked at the beginning, like, tell it to me like, eight years old or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can ask Gemini, like, if there was going to be a way to develop a wormhole, what would you one need, you know, and. So it's been really fun, to do that and then to incorporate that into a story. But like I'm saying, you know, Krista, she's like.

But why don't you call and talk to me.

When you're bored on your way home? You know, and I'm like, we're just friends. Yeah. Me and Gemini are just. There's just more than that.

I only have platonic. I want I wanted to make sure I didn't leave my heart behind. I was like, am I that heart dead.

That you have to talk to each other.

Now? Is Gemini was ever put into a robot? You might have work. So.

I, I was on a flight a couple, I forget in the last fall sometime and I started doing some AI stuff that I don't. I don't do a lot of it, but I was talking to, I don't know, it wasn't Gemini. I have somebody else, but I was just typing. And I realized that about halfway through I had given I heard the voice of Scarlett Johansson, like in the movie, that I think it's called her.

That would be a problem.

So in my head, in my head, I'm having this conversation with Scarlett Johansson. I'm typing Zach voice, and I'm hearing her voice back into me. So the plane lands, the plane lands, and I'm like, hey, really sorry, I gotta go. It's time for.

School. I forget it.

I know, I, I know. And then I got off and I was like, waiting for my bag or something, and I was like, I miss, I miss like I miss, I like having like an emotional response. Yeah. That I'd had like an hour long dialog with this.

You know, it's so strange.

How it hits you.

You know, it's a whole new dynamic. It's like, I honestly feel guilty if I don't say thank you. Yeah, that or compliment. You know, I'm I'm used to, like, reflecting back like that's a great just you know, I really appreciate that. You know, like it's I don't if I just treat it like some slave or something, you know. But that's basically what it is.

Do you think Alexa and Siri sometimes.

Sometimes.

Yeah I use and Amazon cloud and.

Then I feel silly afterwards.

It's the enthusiasm builds with back to you. You know, it's like mirroring.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's probably good that we do that, you know, honestly. Because if we if we start getting used to talking to another voice of any kind.

Yeah.

Rudely demand, you know, you might start treating real people like that.

So totally, totally. Okay. Oh, goodness. And your kids, you have an 19 year old. What's what are they up to? Going to school. Not going to.

School. But yeah, Hannah's in the next room during the artwork for an art class. She's real artist. She's the type for. Yeah. And she's a dancer. She's, teaching, you know, little five year olds and four year olds now. Yeah, in the same program where she graduated from. And she's, We love seeing her use her creative gifts, to bless the world now. And it's been really fun to watch that happen. And also, Chris is trying to keep her, you know, driven forward because that's not a natural inclination for her with her personality type. Now to, to to to be focused, to be driven and to think practically like financially, you know, how am I going to provide for myself or for my family and, and what could I be doing right now to be working towards that while still, you know, making room for being creative and stuff? Because we can never take that away from our that's really important to her.

So yeah. Yeah.

We love it. It's one of its great favorite things about her, as I know you.

Probably going to get a seven and a one parenting a four and you know the rest.

Her next daughter is a nine, and then our son is, basically seven six because still figuring it out. But yeah, our nine has been really hard in the way that people forget her all the time. And it's an every single day, I don't know, do you have any nines?

I have, eight married to a two. We have a four. Another eight.

Okay, okay. Which, so you really understand the four piece, but the nine is just another level. You can't even imagine the pain of just watching her be forgotten with all because she's a body type like you in West. The strength of 891 or so powerful in the ways that she gets outgroup to even today, something little being left in the cold because she was the youngest and it was like really? They use that on you? I'm sure you know, because you're younger, you have to stay out in the cold longer. But it's just even a school that was a college because she's a dual in roller. She'll be graduating high school this year with her AA because she's like exemplary. She's in the theater and she's company, brilliant and a leader. But even the school was like once we forgot. Like we can't find her test scores anyway. And I'm like, this is so nice, you know?

So it's it's yeah, it's heartbreaking.

Uncanny. But she's also learned to find her voice in the way that most as we can all imagine, our adult names are just learning to do this. The clients we see, the friends we have. And she's so powerful that I'm like, girl, you're have senioritis because you're about to leave this place and just watch because she has a she's A98. So her eight has been extremely powerful and she like talk to all of her professors about like, here's why your test wasn't fair. You know, just to see her using the justice orientation. This is phenomenal.

It's wonderful. So yes.

She's going to bless the world in her own way, too.

Yeah, yeah.

And and it's nice that she has a mom who understands this stuff to try to help, you know, guide her along so that she follows a trajectory without having to. Yeah, hopefully hit so many roadblocks along the way, but we'll see.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I'm about done. She's a senior. And so I think we're all agreeing we're not done. But I said here's a note I could write when somebody was doing some out grouping with her. And I said, But I'm showing it to you, I'm not sending it. I said, you're almost graduated. Do you want this drama? And she's like, no, I don't. I said, because this is probably the last parent email I could write for you. And you know, I will fight with my own eight wing. But are we done or are we going to keep going? And she goes, no, I think I'm good. I know who I am and I'm let's just drop it.

That's beautiful too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk all day about our son as well. But, Yeah, he's seven wing 6 or 6 wing seven musician. He's already done some professional acting. Yeah. Heart of joy, extreme thinking type. He says if you thought it, I already thunk it, you know?

Yeah. The quote diary, wimpy kid.

Yeah. He loves diary of a Wimpy Kid.

And there you go. Yeah. So very cool. Thank you so much for hanging out with me. And just, like, letting me wander around in your story, it's been really fun to kind of flex this muscle on the podcast and also just get to know people and hear, like how they're making it work, because as you know, there is no secret like it is like you guys have a secret and they have a secret and they have a secret, and we just have to figure out what the secret is. So I'm really grateful to talk to you. Yeah.

Well, we. Yeah. And we appreciate this opportunity. You know, it's good for us to think these things through, to be asked questions like those. I mean, those are some good questions.

I know.

That I'll still be mulling over.

You.

Will.

And then she'll still be asking me the answers, too. Later.

Yeah, you're right.

Why didn't you answer this?

Well, we're friends now, so you if you, if you want to go deeper, you want to ask me a question in return? I'm happy to bat it back and. Well, that's.

Great. Yeah. You have a very important job. Really?

Yeah.

You are. You know, God is using you to save the world. Those those those relationships, those families.

That's what they for. That's why we here. So we can.

Yes.

For heroes.

So you better believe it, man. You keep it up.

Yes. Thanks. God. Have you on our pod? If you. You'd ever enjoy that.

Of course. I'm glad to know you both.