Kings, Queens, and the Chessboard of Marriage w/A.D and Courtney

I'm glad to meet you. Thanks for coming on marriage radio. I just want to pick your brains for a little while and figure out what it is that you know about relationships and what makes them work for you and what doesn't. I got to read your, kind of your form a little bit. Seems like you are people who are attached to joy somehow, which is always fun to talk to those folks and just see what, I don't know what makes you tick. Tell me a little bit about 80 and Courtney.

So we met in college. UNT and T.

North Texas.

North Texas? Yes. And we met. I still don't know what a was it a compulsive. Is that what it was called? Convocation. Convocation? Whatever that is, I don't know. We went I went to that. Everybody walked into the, you know, the arena and there's, you know, all the, professors standing there and their whatever those robes or gowns are called the hats. And, you know, I walked in and, she laid eyes on me and, you know, we've kind of just been together on and off ever since. And I remember there were some girls, they were talking really loud, and I said something like, I forget. I just made some kind of comment out loud. And then she laughed. And when I was on campus, like, my goal was just to have as much sex as possible. Just.

All right.

Right. And so when she laughed, it was just like, you know, got her.

I'm gonna start there.

That's actually backwards, but. Okay.

Okay. See, I actually did you want to tell the story first? You said no, so go ahead.

I mean, it's accurate, except that he laid eyes on me. He followed me into the. I don't know what was at the arena, whatever it was. There were some girls that were being very loud. I made a little sarcastic comment and he started laughing.

Okay.

That might be right. That might be accurate.

He was just he's just. Since then, he's been in love with my sarcasm. It's been a shining light for you. And. Yeah, we since then. We.

When was this.

Like, the first day before school even started.

It's two years ago. Ten years ago.

August. August 20th 10 or 2011?

2010?

Yeah. August or September 2010.

So you guys meet on, like, the first day of the first year, like when you walk on campus and you've been together since you became like you got there like minute one.

Basically.

On and off.

On that.

Because we we meaning we've always the truth. We mean we've lived together. So we have three kids. We have a 14 year old, a three year old and a one year old who.

So we've.

Yeah, we've lived together, not lived together, lived together, not lived together. So that's what I mean by on and off. It wasn't like continuous. But it's been a very long time.

But we got married in 20.

20, 20.

2020 because right before Covid.

Yes, yes.

You got married right before Covid. So this is a thing that I always think is fascinating when people have babies or they get married right before Covid, they literally have no idea what's about to happen. So you got you got married and then the whole ground shifted under your feet.

Yeah. But I mean, again, by that point in time, we had 2020. We've been together for ten years. I mean, we both put on weight during cold, so that was probably the hardest part. I barely remember Covid. I mean, we did a lot of walking. We did a lot of eating.

I enjoyed Covid so well.

Say more about that. You don't remember it. You enjoyed it. What? That's not the story that I hear from, you know, most people, they remember it and they didn't enjoy it. So how do you how do you make sense of that?

Well, I'd already been working kind of hybrid. I think I was like two days in office in three days at home. So it wasn't much of a shift for me, which I think it was for most people. But I'm not necessarily the most people person. So just having my space and boundaries, like away from people and not having to feel like obligated to go and see people. I could just kind of relax and chill for the most part. Like, I could interact with you on social media. But I could control that. But I think it was nice just, I mean, we were only living, like, a two bedroom apartment at the time, so it was nice to have, like, the whole family together, even though, like, we were working. I mean, there were some logistical things, like, if we're both in meeting, trying to figure out how to do that, but like, I genuinely enjoyed Covid,

Because.

It nice to get out.

But it sort of validated the introvert in you.

Definitely.

And you have one. You have one child at that point.

Yeah. He was in second grade I think, I'm terrible with ages, but yeah, he's 14 now, so this is so he probably would have been eight. So second or third grade?

Yeah, second to third grade. That sounds right.

And you don't remember it. You don't. You barely remember Covid. What is how does that work?

I mean, because it was it wasn't like one event, I remember here's what I do recall, I remember I had I had hated every job I had ever had up until Covid. I had a job that I loved that I would still be at if it weren't for Covid, like I got laid off due to that. So during that, during 2020 is when because I think I got laid off in April, I got laid off April, and by June or July I had another job in the same industry, just with a different company. So, I take it back, I, I enjoyed Covid because that's when I started to like really getting my footing in engineering. Like I found the thing I was good at. I found that they paid me well, and but I also lost the ability to go into a job that I really, really enjoyed. So it was kind of bittersweet.

What was your dream job?

Well, dream job that's too strong.

The one that you would. The one that you would still have if you were.

Yeah. So I, I was an, a developer for a company called Automation Anywhere. It's really nerd stuff, but there's basically 3 or 4 big players in the space. It's like coding, but it's drag and drop, if that makes sense. So it's way easier, right?

Let me tell you something. I, I don't know the first thing about how technology works or actually how, you know, like I can't build anything. I don't know how to swing a hammer. I'm like famous. So you say RPA, you might as well be saying GPA or DNA.

Gotcha. I got you, I'm. I'm the same way. I don't build anything with my hands, and I'm so proud of it. But. So essentially, it's like coding. Except it's not coding. You're dragging and dropping. So it's like coding for dummies, right? And because very few people know about it and because it's so relatively new, it pays very well. And so I was like, just thinking like, thank God that this career exists and that it I found it or it found me. And yeah, so that happened during Covid and I was able to like keep doing that, although I couldn't go into an office.

Right. All right. So you guys meet the first week of school and then you're together on and off. But what do you what. How do you make sense of that early on? I mean, how do you look back at it now and describe the early part of your relationship, maybe vis a vis the letter part, because there's this really interesting gap, right? Ten years between your first child and your second child. So how do you think about your, like, I don't know, the phases or stages of your relationship?

I have done lots of therapy. I'm mixed about therapy. But but it is served me well. And what I have learned is that I grew up with two parents that were both. They are still very. Both. They're not easy people to get along with, right? Like it's my norm. I'm used to them, but I'm really. I realized I had to I had I become who I needed to become in order to survive in that, in that environment, if that makes sense. Not only that, it was very rare. It was a very short period of time where I actually had me, my mom and my dad in the house myself, people between seventh grade and graduating high school, I went to six different schools, and I probably lived with like 5 or 6 different people.

So there was a lack of stability, right? Which I think just basically so like a lot of complex trauma. So I don't remember swaths of my childhood. I just remember feeling unsafe. I remember feeling sad. I remember feeling lonely. I remember feeling like disconnected. If you ever saw Eight Crazy Nights by, Adam Sandler, that's. That's what I felt like. That was one of my my favorite childhood movies. And, long story short, with that turned into was me feeling abandoned by my mother because her, her love was the hardest to come by. Right. And so what I learned is that I, you become you become who you had to become in order to secure the love from the parent. It was most difficult to get it from. Okay, so.

Wait.

I became.

Let me let me see if I got it. You become the person that you had to become in order to secure the love of the parent that was most difficult to connect with.

Yes.

So your mom is difficult to connect with, and you're gonna work out and figure out strategies to figure out how to get her to love you.

Not exactly that, but more so. Like, if she needed. I'll give you an example. She wasn't a very affectionate mother, right? Like we didn't hug or talk or anything like that very often. And it was because she was always so stressed and working and all this other things. But one thing I did recall her always doing is like I would overhear her in conversations with her friends and family and saying, oh, that's my son. He's so smart. He's so this. He's so smart. He's so, so like, I would get praised indirectly. So to me, praise felt like love. And so essentially I grew up to be this guy who didn't feel worthy of love. I had to earn love. Right. I didn't feel worthy of value. I had to earn value. And to answer your questions, this is a very roundabout answer.

When I, what I learned is that I was looking for a woman who was like my mother in the sense that, like, it allowed me to continue to run and create those patterns. Right. My both of my parents also have a very aggressive, sharp tone of voice, which again, was just normal to me. They're always insulting each other and their tone is very sharp. So this is just how I talk. And I would talk to her very sharply. I would talk to everyone very shy. I was just this asshole that, you know, people, some people like some people hate it. And it was just I had not really been socialized very well. And so I got into the world, I started dating, I meet her and it's like I'm just figuring life out as I go. And I just learned that. I didn't think very highly of myself. My ego was inflated. But like, that's different than loving yourself, right?

Do you think that's attached to the thing you said earlier where you're you're going to college and you just wanna have as much sex as possible? Is that you looking for the same thing or is that a validation?

Validation? I think it's not the same thing, but validation runs across both. Absolutely. I am looking for someone to tell me that, that I matter, that I'm important, that, you know, the special. Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. So you gotta, you got a array of women in front of you and they're all a, b, c, d, e, f, g. And then one of them laughs and you're like, dang it. It connects to your like heartstrings. If that's the story, right. We don't quite know who laughed at whose joke, but but it seems like that makes sense.

I'm very easy to make laugh, so it's like that might be true. She makes me laugh all the time. She's like, you're just so easy. So that might be true, I don't recall.

Yeah. So, your parents still alive?

Yes.

What's your relationship with them now? Your mom?

That's a very good question. I was just with her. Was that last night? I was just with her last night. It is. It is night and day different now. It is night and day different. She has learned. So she had a health scare. And this health scare turned into. I've already cursed once on this show, I. I've had to. I've had to learn. Okay. Thank you. I've had to learn how to keep put boundaries up.

Yep.

In relationships with my mother, which is. Which is odd, because typically your mother is like your source of love, your source of safety, your source of protection. And for me, my mother was exactly the opposite. Like exactly the opposite meaning, like, I can tell you exactly. I can give you plenty of examples where mentally, emotionally or physically she would make decisions. That led to me feeling incredibly unsafe. So now I experienced this woman who I yearn for love and safety with as incredibly unsafe in conversation, in living arrangements, everything. And you know, God bless her heart. She's just not too bright. My mother's not too bright. That's just. And I said that with all the love in the world. But yeah.

So she had a health scare. We ended up having a very, heart to heart conversation, and she ended up breaking down, crying, basically saying, hey, I'm sorry I wasn't there. I'm sorry I didn't make time to play with you. I'm sorry. Like. And to me, what I was owed an apology for was not any of that. But I took it right. And it made me realize that, like, there's so much shame built up in her that it took this health scare to get her to look in the mirror and say, damn, you know, like I have done things that I'm not proud of and I and I, and I want to make amends for those things.

Right. That's pretty cool. How is she with your kids?

So it's funny. So she's. I'm we're in, like, North Dallas. She's in like, south of Dallas. So she's like a 45 minute drive away. We don't I don't go see her very often. That's a long drive. Okay. She didn't come up this way either, so she. My children are getting to know them. What are you laughing about? My children are getting to know her. And both her and my dad have this thing where they're needy about their grandchildren, so they'll come in. They're just. They're like, love me. I want to love you. I want to play on you. And their children are like, whoa. Like, well, that's. And so, like, it's if you were to ever see it, it's it's actually kind of I don't know what word to use.

It's a it's kind of sad. But they love their grandchildren very much. They just begin they have big personalities and they can both be very needy. And so they don't give the space for their child to come to them, if that makes sense. But by the time they leave my, my, the children are like, okay, bye. It was nice to meet you. Hug them so they get what they wanted the entire time. It's just they have to learn how to, like, relax.

Right on. Courtney, why are you laughing?

It's just the way he said, that's a far drive. Like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You just, you know.

Can't be. I'm fascinated by this whole grandparent thing, though, like, I, my kids are 19 and 23, and I feel like I did so much fumbling through being a parent that I'm like, can you go ahead and just have some grandkids? Because I think I can get that right. If you get some grandkids, if you get some kids, I'll be I'll, I can redeem myself. And I wonder if that's the feeling that grandparents have in general that your mom has in general. Your parents don't know. I just was speculating.

I could I could imagine that that sentiment is there. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So I'm glad you said that. So she just gathered all of my she being my mom just gathered. Not all because she has like 16 grandkids, but she has a handful of her grandkids, like six of them at her house now. And I went to drop my son off yesterday and she was just glowing like she was happier than I've seen her in a very long time. And it was an authentic happiness. It wasn't like a defensive performance of happiness. It's, I can tell I she rented bunk beds just for them to have places to sleep. Right. So that was that was great.

You've done a lot of therapy. You have the two of you done any therapy together?

Yes.

As a couple.

Yes we have.

I'd love to hear about it if you're willing to share. Like what's, what is the. Oh no you don't like it.

He's not a proponent. Proponent of it.

Yeah. So so you're to your thoughts on couples therapy. Now we're getting to the juicy stuff.

I do I want to hear about it.

My latest experience I felt. I'm gonna be honest. I felt ganged up on. I felt it by both him and the therapist. And I'm just like, you know what?

Okay.

But.

That happens a lot. I mean, I'm interested in your experience. Tell me about it. Yeah.

It's important to find a therapist that is neutral, and you kind of go into that thinking that that would be the case. It has not always been the case, at least for the two experiences that we've had. And you have to find someone that, like you both can be on the same page with. In this particular case, this therapist is, very opinionated, very strong minded about certain aspects. And so from my perspective, for me, it made it difficult to be.

To feel safe.

Open and honest, not even open and honest, but like for me to want to even continue a conversation if what I'm going to say is going to be construed in a way that paints me as this like bad person, when I'm simply trying to explain an experience from my perspective. And you're laughing because, like.

I didn't laugh, I smiled.

It just was not a positive experience for me. What I do, what I have, what I want to engage another experience like or I do another couples therapy session. I would just needs to be with the right person, because the last one left a really bad taste in my mouth.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah, that's a bummer. I hear that a lot. I mean, it's a it's a hard it's hard to find the balance. And in my own practice I always tell people I will take sides. I could do take sides I'll take sides on on your side or her side. But typically what I'll take sides of is the side of relationality I want to take side of like the best possible relational outcome. And that may mean that one or both of you needs to be confronted with the way that things are playing out. It doesn't. It's not helpful if that always feels one sided. Because that tends to be really challenging. But I can appreciate that that would be a hard experience to have.

Also knowing like, what's your objective to get out of this session? And I don't I think it's more so for us, like we were just going and just talking about things than they have occurred. And then it suddenly became this me against them. And it's like, I don't need to pay money to have to.

She sounds just like me.

Gang up on me.

So that was our last therapist, right? Couples therapist. We had one before that too, and I felt the exact same way. And I remember the therapist told her, like, in front of me. Like, sitting there, like I'm paying to be here. Like we're paying to be here. She's like, she's talking to my wife and she's like, you can leave. You don't have to be here. You can leave. And I'm like, yeah, I don't. That's fine. If she wants to get a therapist who tells her that, great. I don't need to be here for that, though. Like, I couldn't stay at home for this. And I'm like, you're incredibly biased. In general, though, my experience is that couples therapy can be useful and impactful, but like, like 10% of the time.

And I think the problem inherently baked into it is that the the clients, there's a therapist, there's me and there's her, but I'm not their client. She's not their client. The relationship is their client. And so they're doing what they can do to keep their relationship intact. And I believe and this is where my coaching and my clients is, like totally different from the rest, that sometimes relationships need to end. They do like sometimes like that is the thing. So I tend to say let's let's start there. Like, do we want a divorce?

No. But is that not what was happening when when the therapist looked at her and said, you can leave. Like, is that different? I mean, that sounds like it consistent with your theory.

No. Because like, well, I mean, maybe my only problem with that is that I was in the room, like, if this if like and also is like, you don't have to tell her she can leave. She knows that she's not a captor like she's not, she's not, she's not a she can she knows that I know that I just don't need to be here for that. This could have been a solo session and I would not have known, and I would not have had an issue with it.

Do you think there's any value, though, and you hearing and I'm not talking about you specifically, but do you think there's any value, though, in the partner hearing the let's say the let's say let's not let's stop talking about the two of you for a second. Let's say there's a partner who is in a relationship that's not working, and she doesn't know if she has options. She thinks she has to stay. She thinks she has to make it like, make it go because she's got kids or because she's got, you know, God said so or because her family would be embarrassed or whatever it is. Right. And do you think there's any value in having someone say to her, you are allowed to leave, which is empowering for her, but then also being witnessed by the partner who is a part of the the trap.

Do you think there's anything in in that for you and for her or not? You and her, of course. But like, yeah, for both people to witness that moment in a way that is I don't know, maybe it increases accountability because I got to tell you the truth, I've said it. I've said it lots of times in my office. I go, yeah, you don't have to do this. I don't have to do this anymore if you don't want to.

Like so to answer your question, yes, because I tell people I don't have to do anything besides stay black and die. I don't like I can't control those two things have to happen, right? Yeah. So when we tell ourselves that we have to do things like it puts this pressure in this constriction, right. So I'm in total agreeing with that. My issue with with therapy though is, is a lot of it is talk based like it's a lot of talking. Right. And so when people say like what you said a moment ago, like it's not working or like we're in the relationship, we got to put more. We've got to put more specific language on it. It's like she's upset because of something he may or may not be doing, and he does not have to do this thing or like he can choose to. Right. And so at the end of the day, I have in my head what I've learned, I kind of, I kind of call it relationship mathematics. Right.

Okay.

I'm in in any given relationship. Okay. So I'll ask you this. It's like I had this linear algebra class in college, and it was fascinating because once you prove one thing to be true, we now know like 8 or 9 other things to be true. So I'm going to ask you this one quick, one question you sent me. If you agree or disagree.

I'm nervous. I'm ready.

In in any given romantic relationship, would you agree that no party likes the other person an equal amount, like one person always likes the other person a little more or a lot more. But there's a there's a there's a delta there.

All right, I have two I have two caveats. One is you will almost never get me to say always or never. Like I'll never say I'll never this or all black people or that or all that. Like, I'll never say that. So I'll caveat that. However, I do think often there is a mismatch. More often than not there's a mismatch. And the level of by in or the level of, of like, what's the right word? It's not quite attraction, but the level of commitment. I do think that there's a mismatch more often than not, especially in my office. Right. I don't know about the gen pop, but like, but, you know, people come into my office, there is a usually a more satisfied and a less satisfied partner.

Okay.

So I'll give you that.

Okay. Are you familiar with, I'll, I'll get there because. Because this is my baby I don't need I'm not trying to get you to believe it. I just wanted to see. Did you believe it? Right. Sure. Are you familiar with Esther Pareil?

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. You know how she talks about power dynamics in relationships. Okay, so would you. Would you agree that power is not good or bad? It just is.

I do agree that power is neither good nor bad. It just is perfect.

So in my mind, in relationship mathematics, there's never a couple where they like each other equally, not necessarily how satisfied they are in their relationship, but like the man likes the woman more, or the woman likes the man more. It might be a whole lot more. It might be a little bit more. But there's there's there's a difference there, right? Sure. And so, you have the pursuer and then you have the pursued. I gotta use my hands for this. Okay. So the pursuer and then the pursuit. Neither position is better than the other. You need one for the other to exist. The pursuer gets to be with the one they love. Like this is the object of their affection. They get to be with the one they what they love. They get highs and lows of relationships. Right?

Okay, okay.

And the pursued, they don't get highs and lows, but they get consistency from the one that loves them. Okay, if that makes sense. And so.

Yeah.

The power this person just has more power. This person is the person who's more likely to say, hey, this is not working for me. This is I need you to change this behavior or we're going to end the relationship.

Which person does.

The pursuit? The the pursuit. Right. Because this person is in love. And so one example I give out of my, my clients is like, your woman feels unsafe when you let her bully you, when you don't want to do something, yet you do it because you don't want to hear her, to hear her mouth. She's essentially bullied you into doing something that you don't want to do because you fear the emotional or verbal repercussions of it. And so one of the things that I have all my clients do is like, tell your wife no, tell her. No. Like, I'm not doing that. I love you, but no, that's not happening. Right. Do it warm. Do it respectfully. Do it kindly, but do it right. And I just all of this, like, kind of goes in my head.

So you have the pursuer in the pursuit. I know that if whoever's the pursuit or is the one who's the more emotional person in the relationship, like they, they they they came to this relationship, the primary value for them is how they feel in it, right? Versus the other person. Their primary value is how consistently they can get value or get a certain behavior out of this other person. And so you have to pick and choose. You can't you can't hold both positions. Right. So in my relationship, I remember asking my wife, I was like, okay, so wish do you want to be like, what would you prefer to be? And she said, oh, no guarantee. I want to be the pursuer. I want, I want to feel the highs and lows.

I want to feel that. And another thing I tell my clients is that. Because I just this stuff can be seen as controversial, but it just it just makes sense to me. Women need chaos. They need chaos. They need to feel good and bad and happy. And they need to feel all of it. Like, okay, like trying to stop a woman from feeling bad. It's like trying to stop the rain from falling. Like it is a futile. It's just. It's just a futile effort. Right? And so as a husband, I've just had to learn how to like. Like, what do I do in these situations? And what I've learned is that I don't have to do anything like I can just, like, exist in it. I can just see it. I can give her a hug, I can give her a kiss, I can, I could go into the other room and say hey self-regulate. You know there's a lot of options but I don't have to engage.

Okay, okay. I'm tracking with you. I understand everything you're saying, but what I really want to know is what he thinks.

I mean, I believe that I agree with most of it, but to caveat like to go off of his pursuit and his pursuer. And I mentioned this the other day that while I think one person can be one for a little bit, I also think it's important to have those rules flip every now and then. Okay? Because I'll say it to him, like, as much as you enjoy being pursued, I also enjoy that too. And it's like you can't expect me to just constantly be this one, like chasing and not need a break for a minute and have that same feeling that you have as well. Otherwise it like he's mentioning about the paradigm, it's like it feels like I'm always the one that's more in than you are because I'm the pursuer.

So while I think what he's saying makes sense, I think it is also important to note that, like, you still have to put in effort. Like, I think when I first heard this, I heard pursuit is like, you're just doing whatever you want to do or you're just they're not putting in any effort like, you still need to pursue your wife, if you're the one that's being pursued like otherwise. I'm not saying that I do this, but like, if someone else were happen to come by and start pursuing your wife, it's like, yeah, she's now getting his attention that she doesn't get from you. And whether it's something she whether wants to engage in or not. Like you can't argue that that's attractive. Like to have those feelings. Yeah.

Obviously they want it from their spouse. But you can't stop those feelings that may arise if that happens to come from somebody else at the same time. So it's important to have an equitable balance in that scenario, I guess.

What do you think about 80? Chaos theory?

I disagree with it.

Okay. Tell me.

Speaking of someone who has dealt with, like, emotional roller coasters, like, it's not a fun place to be, so to say that women thrive and need chaos. I, I don't agree with it. And I will caveat to say that, like, that's from my perspective, there could possibly be women out there who enjoy being on that ride. Personally, I do not. It's if you knew any of our friends, they will tell you that I. I am like even keeled. But I know how to regulate my emotions when I'm outside. But like when I'm in my own space, like I do have a lot of emotions. I just don't like put them out there like that. And it's again, it's not it's not fun being on a roller coaster emotion. So to hear him say that it's like that doesn't, doesn't make sense to me.

Okay, I got one more question. What do you think about his bullying theory.

And what was the context?

It was this idea that, you know, sometimes your wife will bully you and you need to learn how to say no.

I think bully is a strong word. I think that certain women are just more vocal about their needs. And this shouldn't be labeled as bullying. It's like I'm being vocal because I could just not say anything, and then I could repress and be angry. And then, you know, my me microaggressions, you pass aggressive whatever. Like I'm voicing what I would like, what I need from you. You can choose to say no, but.

You.

Know.

Yeah.

I think there also still needs to be a balance. And I think there needs to be a reason for you to say no.

Yeah.

If like, you can't just keep saying no because you just don't want to do it, like.

Yes, I absolutely is that. Have you ever heard someone say, if you want to catch a fish, don't ask a fish, ask a fisherman.

I've never heard anybody say that before.

Okay, I've, I've I've made it my life's mission to understand women. And they can be so confusing because they'll say one thing and they'll do another. And what I've learned is that you've kind of got to just take a major grain of salt with what they say, with what she says, and then look at, like, how they behave. Because if someone's saying something but they're behaving in a way that's contradictory, it would to me, it serves you to listen more to their actions. So she says everything that she says, and obviously she's telling her truth. And yet and still she's here. She's here. This is where she wants to be.

Okay? So, I will push back on a couple of things because, again, you'll never hear me say women are ex or women do this like that. But I appreciate your desire to understand women. Here's here's what I want to know. Courtney. Does Addie understand you?

A good question? I would say so for the most part. I think he definitely knows, like me, my nuances, how I think I think sometimes I'll push his generalizations onto me, as in all women. It's like you can make some, like, you know, all women. Most almost want to have feminine features, whatever. Like you can make certain generalizations. You can't say that all women like chaos. That's not true. Like. And so.

You really want to say all women have love chaos that you said. I love.

The words always or never. He says don't use approaches either. But it's like, I think you can make broad statements, but know that, like, there are certain things, like when it comes to me that like, it's just that's just not going to be the case.

Can I ask you to a question? Yeah. Just in the sense of making broad statements. Do all women have do all women have vaginas?

Oh, geez.

I just I just said that like, there's certain things you can there's certain things that like, you cannot.

So I, when I, when I make broad sweeping generalizations, I'm talking about the human female adults like I'm, I'm classifying them as.

An animal. You said all you said. All women love chaos. And you're sitting next to a woman who says, I don't love chaos.

She just you. This this is. You're asking the fish. I'm the fisherman. I've caught her. She's here. She's been here for a long time. She's smiling.

I think you can also ingredients in relationships. You're never going to get 100%. Which one out of your partner?

Correct.

So there are certain things that I've come to realize. Like he's just not going to budge on these things. For me, that's something that is a deal breaker or no, he can keep saying little chaos, I don't. So as long as you're not causing me, you know, a certain level of chaos.

She brings the most. She brings more chaos into my life than anyone. Besides, my kids know even more than my kids. So.

And yet, here you are.

I am, this is where I want to be.

Yeah. Why?

I love women, I love people, I love people in general, but I specifically love women because they allow me to understand my deficiencies and my shortcomings by being my mirror.

Does that go back to your mom?

Maybe. I mean, maybe because, like, I learned what I learned from her, if that makes sense. It was like some people get out in the world like myself, and, like, I just. I just don't know any better. I'm. I'm navigating with the best information that I have, which to someone else who's, like, incredibly well socialized, I might look like an idiot. And it's not that I am relative to them, I am, but it's just like, I don't know what I don't know, right? And so, yeah, I you could say that I am the mirror of my parents. I'm, I'm, I'm a bit of everything from them. They're good. They're bad. You know, their strengths, their weaknesses. All that becomes me. And then there's an unbecoming process that I have to, like, remove that from me, which does not serve me.

How do you how do your kids describe you? Like how does your how do your older and younger kids say if they said, if I said tell me about your parents, would they tell me.

How would.

Your 14 year old who's your 14 year old are?

His? His name is Aston.

Okay, so 14 year old son. And if I said Aston, tell me about your parents. What would you say?

I can tell you. For me, he would say that my mom does everything. He takes care of everything. She's always there. She comes to all my things. Dropped me off on everything. He actually just told me this. So that's how.

He did. Okay? That's not how he would describe her to me. I don't know how I think. I think we should do this. You tell him how Aston would describe me to you, and I'll do the same. I'll vice versa.

Probably that you're just a businessman focused on making money. You care about your family. You want to see. You want to succeed for your family. But he does talk about you just in a business context.

Interesting. So I think he would say about you that you are kind, your loving. You can you can sometimes be moody or, you know,

I'm a woman, right?

Do you are. And, like, we don't do this anymore. But there used to be times where, like, he would come talk to me and we were talking. I'm like, look, bro, I don't wanna hear her mouth, do you? He's like, no. Okay. I'm like, great, so let's just do this. He's like, okay. Like that's how we kind of bonded in the past. We're we're we're beyond that now. But, she does do everything. So I'm not saying that she doesn't. I just don't know if he would describe her that way. Unless he wants something. When he wants something, you know, you're amazing.

And then you have two younger ones who are.

Those are second oldest. His name is Preston. He just turned three. He's adorable. And then we have, She's only one, right? She's. She's like one baby. Yes. Eleanor. She's she's our girl. And I really, really wanted a daughter. So I'm super excited about that whole journey of being a girl, dad and I, I know she is going to mature me emotionally, I know.

Okay. Yeah, well, I can vouch for that. Minor girls and I. I could not be a boy, dad, I, I, I applaud your efforts in trying to raise sons because I would be terrible at it. I'm so grateful that I have girls. And, you know, they definitely, definitely have shaped the way I think about, I won't say all women, but I'll say at least three women. And those three women, my wife and my two kids have shaped the way I try to move through the world. So I'm I'm grateful that they exist. All right. I want to ask you, before we run out of time, your brand includes this phrase kingmaker. What does that mean to you? What is it? What is it about?

The longest short of it, man, is I am not speaking in hyperbole when I say that men today, especially husbands, we're a modern day kings. Because kings didn't have Wi-Fi. They didn't have hot water, they didn't have running water, they didn't have TV, they didn't. We have a lot of luxuries that we take for granted in these first world countries. And as I said earlier, I think that the average manages does not love or value himself. They do not love a value. And I believe that my woman is my mirror. Right? So like, for example, like she's funny. I'm funny. Like we enjoy making each other laugh, but like what I like about her is what is truly what it is that I like about myself being reflected in her.

Right? So I like humor, so I like that she laughs at my jokes. I'm really that's the part of me that I like, if that makes sense. And when my clients tend to not understand is that bro, she can't respect you any more than you respect yourself. So if if if a guy is coming to me and saying, hey, I feel like she's being disrespectful. Two things I know to be true. Either one not. Either both are true. One. She feels unsafe. She's probably not intentionally trying to be disrespectful. She feels unsafe, and when she feels unsafe, she starts acting in ways that we perceive to be disrespectful to. Instead of trying to fix the disrespect in her. Look at your level of self-respect. Ask yourself, why am I allowing her to speak to me and treat me this way? Some part of you thinks that.

Sometimes it about me. Yeah yeah yeah.

Yeah, yeah, some part of it. Some part of you thinks is okay. And so it's like there was a point in time where she would have a very harsh, very critical tone of voice with me. And I realized that's how I talked to myself in my head, which is why I let her speak to me that way. So if I want her to speak me better, I have to speak to me better. I have to raise my standard for how dealing with me is okay.

Do you. So you're trying to invite your, your your kings, your people, your clients perhaps to lean into healthy self-esteem. Basically.

Yes. Yes. And not just self-esteem but but truly valuing yourself as a meme. Men have been described as the disposable sex. Who is, I think by by countries in propaganda. Like like I keep things very simple, right. As a human being, again, I go back to being an animal. I think we're animals, right? Okay. We exist and we have needs. One of our most primal needs is to survive, to reproduce, and to make sure that our offspring survive. Right?

Survival. And so, yeah.

We would argue that if a campaign came out and this campaign made men feel glory and honor and pride and courage for going and dying, I would argue that those men are brainwashed because why would you throw your wife your life away unnecessarily? Well, that's what a kamikaze pilot did. Like it was. They they were they were, they were they were saying, hey, this man is honorable. That's why he's dying for us. I'm not fighting to your word, bro, I love me. I don't want to die. I want to live right? Recruit someone else. And so it's very easy to get a man to to, like, subscribe to an idea by praising him. But, like, if if you can get me to do something that forsakes me, do the praise.

It means that I want your validation more than I want to, like, value myself, if that makes sense. Okay. And so I truly believe. And my clients are like seven and eight figure answers. So like, these are men who went out there and they amassed a lot of wealth because they want, you know, sexual options. And then you see how the woman speaks to them and treats them. And it's like, bro, you don't you don't love yourself because, like, you wouldn't allow her to continue to do this if you thought it was not okay. You think it's okay. So we go and we get these things the money, the cars, the job, the accolade, the status. But how you let people treat you tells me everything I need to know about you.

And you cannot mask. You cannot mask how you feel about yourself with money and and all these other things. And I know because I've been there and I've tried it. Yeah. And I truly did not like or love myself. And so that is what I teach my clients.

Well, I definitely agree with you that you can't outsource your esteem. You can't, you can't, you know, find your value in other stuff that's out there people, money, the stuff you own, the titles that you carry, the number of women you've slept with, or the number of women you made, laugh like you can't. That's not a healthy place to find yourself going to think about the rest of it, though, before I cut you. So I want to know, Courtney, do you have a, do you have a theory or philosophy about queens, or do you have your own kind of, you know, operating system that helps you organize the way you think about relationships?

I'm thinking about the show with Nick.

And King. Sit back and hold court. Tell them about Nick.

What show was that?

Seeking sister Wives series.

Is Guy in this show seeking Sister Wives? He had two wives. They both went to work. He did not go to work. He was a stay at home husband. And his phrase was King. Sit back and hold the court while he sends his queens out to do all the work.

He was talking about the game of chess. Like he's like the king can only move play this time. You know the queen. She's all over the board.

She had a lot of power. Yeah.

And so like we in my my perspective. Right. Since you asked me mine, I think that it truly is a partnership like a king. Basically on that example, like a king is useless without a queen on the chess board. She can be all over the board. She can take people out, do whatever, and it is to protect the king overall. But it's also the king has to play his part as well. So it just goes to show that, like, you need both pieces to win the game. Yeah. You can't just rely on one or the other. So I do think that queens play a role, and it's figuring out what your role in that relationship is. And I don't think there's one set way to do it how we do it for somebody else and vice versa. So it's just figuring out what works for you. But knowing that you both have to play a role in winning the game, I guess.

Right on, I can I can get behind that strategy. I, I've loved talking to you both. If people want to hear more about what's going on for you as a couple, or you just find more about what you've got thinking, what you're thinking about, how do I how do I point them in your direction?

Yeah. So she's a pretty private person. But from my social media everywhere, it's at a D the kingmaker. And if there is a husband out there who's listening, who's like, hey, during the courting phase, you know, everything was great. She was soft, kind, respectful. And now, like, we're ten, 15 years in and, you know, she's crashed, she's cold. The sex is kind of going still. And I just want to be celebrated and appreciated. Again. They can go to the 30 day fixed net. Where, you know, I teach them what I call the desire equation. I take my engineering brain and I'm like, what is it that we need to do at a minimum to get love, softness, warmth, respect from our woman on a consistent basis? Because I think that's what what men want.

Cool. Well, listen, I'm going to cut you loose, let you go, crash. Enjoy your weekend. And thank you so much for talking to me. It was really fun to get to know you both.

Thank you, thank you.