The Therapist and Her Partner: What It Actually Looks Like to Live the Work w/Anna & John

How's it going? Are you nervous?

Yes. Yes.

Why? I mean, it's okay that you are. But tell me about your nervousness.

I mean, doesn't take that much to get me nervous, but, I mean, I could tell. I could go into into detail about it, but I don't think this is not my therapy session, so. Could be. Let's just put I feel it energetically in my body. We'll leave it at that.

Yeah. Well, I think you said you're you're just like not you have no presence out in the.

Yeah. I mean, that's at least a logical manifestation of what I, my nervousness is, is just like I'm going from literally unknown no internet footprint whatsoever. But yeah, I'd say what its core. I just, you know, it's just it's just I just energetically noticed that I'm feeling anxiety about it, but I don't have a real conscious like concern about it or anything.

I go to the gym with a guy whose claim to fame is that he's unusable because his name is. What is his name? His name is like the same name. It's like Paul. It's Paul Stanley who is like one of the members of the band kiss.

Yeah.

So it's like, if people Google me, they all they do is they find the guy from kiss. And so there's no he's he's he's been able to remain anonymous forever.

Funny story. When Anna Googles me, she thought I was my uncle who is a therapist. And that's who you would find from my relatively unique name.

How was that for you? I'm imagining that's at the beginning of your relationship, and you kind of. You're kind of first meeting this guy, and then you go on Google and you find out he's a therapist. What does that do for you?

Well, it was confusing, mostly because I, I had met him already, and the picture kind of looked like him because his uncle's online picture was much younger than he actually is. So it's probably from, like, the age that we are. And so it was confusing because I was like.

My grandmother's genetics trickled through, though, to enough to, you know, for sure.

Yeah.

There's a relation.

There's a clear relation. Yeah. Yeah. That was you know, like, that's the weird thing about when you are meeting somebody on an app is that then at some point you go back and you Google them.

Or at least you did 7 or 8 years, you know, because we don't actually have any idea what people do now. Probably comes with a dossier or something.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've been with Rebecca since before email, so I don't I don't really know anything about how the world of apps dating works at all.

So I mean, you have TV, so you kind of had some idea.

Yeah, it's pretty well represented. It's it's not incorrect in a lot of those representations.

I want to ask you the miracle question. If you if we have a if we have this podcast recording and we knock it out of the park for you and you get exactly what you want out of, out of working for 45 minutes, telling your story to the entire world of 7 or 8 billion people. What what do you get? What happens for you?

Oh, you're so tricky, Zach.

I know,

Yeah, I don't think I have an answer. Like, I am very much letting go of outcome in.

This way.

Yeah, that I don't I, I don't have a clear answer to that. It was cool of you to ask and happy to be here. I'm. I'm really, like, along for the ride of whatever it looks like.

That's cool. I got a question, so I'll make it easier for you. I'm just wondering if you have, like, a. Hey, this this is our this is our coming out party. And I wonder what if there's anything like that you hope to get. Even if it's that we've been it, we could throw it away if we want to.

Yeah. Not for me. What do you. You got anything on that?

I mean, to me, we're already getting it right. To me, it's the. The practice is the practice, right? Like the fact that I felt anxiety about doing it or didn't really, you know, and she wanted to do it. And so just like every, you know, every other day in my life. Right. There's some other way in which you're trying to trying to lean into it instead of run away from it. And so this is it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For Jen pop, for all the people that are listening, Anna is one of the faculty members at the Relational Life Institute, has been a mentor of mine, and I have a ton of respect in regard for the way that you do the work and the way that you approach it and what you've taught me. So I'm interested in hearing a little bit about that. But here's my first question, which is actually for you, John. Can you describe for me relational life therapy? I mean, what do you know? It's like one time I had this girl at my house and she was like, all she did was musical theater. Like, her whole life was musical theater. She just. And I was like, could you do me a favor?

Just describe for me Star Wars. Tell me everything you know about Star Wars. And I just recorded her, and it was the most delightful thing in the world because it was like kind of close. And she understood, like, robots and spaceships. But I'm wondering, as someone who's wrote adjacent but also in it, because you're, you're you're partnering with somebody who's who's kind of got this vibe, like, what do you know, how would you describe it?

Right. I mean, for full context, right. Like we we met at a relational life therapy event. And so. Right. I have been more than just, you know, in the proximity to it, but but I also have tried to answer that answer.

That you and Zach.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. No, no, I know that part.

Yeah yeah yeah. So I'm just going for the for the greater context. Right. So I should be able to answer this question. It's not like you're just completely honest about. It's one that I've tried to I'm going to dodge the question just a little bit but. And describe it just in a, in a more laypersons way. Right. Like the way in which it intuitively made sense to me, you know, is when we were, you know, when they were talking about the grid, right. And and putting yourself kind of in these quadrants and this idea that, that you're just either kind of you're out of, out of the middle and out of moderation in one way or the other, and they're just kind of mirror images of each other. Right? And so that kind of resonated with the kind of fundamental understandings of the world that I've kind of come across later in life.

Right? Just just of mindfulness. Right. Like that. It's like it's all relative, that it's like if, if, if you get to out of out of flow, right, you're going to all of a sudden, you know, it's not going to work, right. Like your relationship to other things, to other people, to yourself like is just not going to work. And so right to me, that's when I say relational life, right? It's about all all that being in an ecosystem together. Right. It's like if you're if you're one like if you're better than then someone is by definition lesser than right. And whether you want to kind of go back to the, to the origins of, of of of what my understanding of kind of where, where Terry kind of got into this of like feminism and the idea of, right, you know, being one up on nature or on people or whatever, it's right.

The same principles. Right? We, we find surfacing in all like in Western philosophy and eastern philosophy and, and all these kind of places, and they just have a different kind of way of articulating it. Right. And so it, it just kind of intuitively made sense. And so to me, that's, that's kind of what I would say it's about without getting into the actual details of what it is about and how it's different or special or. Yeah, you know, that's not my I don't work in marketing for them. So.

Somebody sure does. That's for sure. These guys can churn out some marketing material. That's.

Yeah.

They called.

Out.

How did he do. Did you did he get it right? Is that is that how you understand it within the context of your relationship together?

I mean, I think that that was a pretty sophisticated answer in terms of his expression, of understanding of it. It is certainly aligns with like the way, like the core core of it that, you know, nobody is the great lie is that anybody could be worth more or less than anybody else. And. That we aren't we aren't we aren't above a system. We are a part of it. And that when we are out of a grounded place that we're not going to be able to, we're not present with what's really in front of us. So, yeah, I mean, I think like that's essentially what he just said. And I think that that is the core of it.

Yeah. To me, it comes back to like intimacy. Is there access to intimacy. And you can't have it from above or below. So that's as simple as I could sort of put it. We did meet, I forgot it, I didn't forget, but I do know that we met Ana and I met on the internet when you were teaching a practicum that I was taking, but then in person, it was in Costa Rica when we were just kind of they're hanging out and doing our thing.

And that was the first time I'd ever been around. I think part of it was really cool for me was being around all of you, the faculty, but then also all of your partners, like kind of seeing not just that we were there kind of reciting the mantras or doing the thing, but actually watching people interact and go in and out and up and down and trying to figure out how to just take care of each other in the midst of I mean, that was a was it quite a stressful week, but it was a it was intense for sure.

It was a very intense. That was an intense week. Yeah. It was not it was not a vacation. Yeah. It was that was an intense experience. The material that was presented was nothing new for me, you know, like it's it's the same material that I teach. It's like I am steeped in it. But it was the first time that I had been live with a partner in that material, even though I have been an art practitioner therapist for way longer than John and I have been partner, and I was partnered before.

It was the first time that I was really participating with my partner in material. So it was. It was. I am fond of saying that the material for me is always fresh, but it was. It was especially fresh on that. On that trip, there were a few things that I realized one had to do with, like a realization of how much covert control I still have around things like using some of the relational tools that I have that that was in like two years, two and a half years ago now. So I've been actively working on just noticing and continuing to grow away from that covert control so I can actually use the tools for intimacy. I mean, those were kind of the big realizations. One happened in the course of the teaching, and the other happened adjacent to the teaching. In terms of my awareness of that, that's a that's a story if you want to hear it.

Of course I want to hear it. Yeah. I mean, you're okay to tell.

It like like, no, no, everybody wants to go.

Well, you know, I like to tell a long story.

Well, I mean, particularly if you can tell it together, right? I mean, I, I have this pet theory that I, I think we all share, but just hearing you describe that is interesting to me. My pet theory is that the number one thing you can do is get your own house in order, like take care of your side of the street, find your find your center, find that center space. Stay there, don't leave you know and fight anybody that you can into that space with you. But you got to stay put. And I, I have a very specific story about why that works for Rebecca and I. But if if there's more data out there that can help me prove my own theory because of something that you learned, I'm all about it. Yeah. You should tell us.

I mean, I think the thing is, is like, we are always moving in and out of it, though. It's like the for me, the work of of recovery, of relational recovery is not never getting out of my grounded center, but as being able to know when am I out of it and catch that sooner, direct it back sooner because I, I, I don't know about you, but I have not successfully been able to like, get ahead of it and never have that happen. It never be ungrounded. I will, I expect myself to experience that for the rest of my life.

Yeah, I'm out ahead of it. I'm good. I've got it figured out.

So that sounds like you, Zach. You nailed it. Done and dusted.

My new favorite story is how I got in the wrong line at Costco. I went to go get gas at Costco, and I got in the wrong line, like, because everybody else was moving faster than that. Whatever line I picked that was. And I immediately started screaming at whomever like.

Like.

From your grounded, centered.

I can't believe it. You know, I'm just, like, cursing at the guy who got out of the car without his wallet. And, you know, I, I sitting there going, Holy cow. Like, this is amazing. How do I, how do I manage to just get this furious this fast about something this dumb, you know?

So yeah, absolutely.

Say, no, I have not actually got out in front of it anyway.

But I.

Mean a story.

It's a relief to to just think we don't have to like that. That's a big part of it for me. But the, the, the thing that happened was that we were there and the kids were we, we got a like a whole string of FaceTime call requests and we were heading into like, yoga and the jungle, like nighttime yoga and the jungle.

Yeah, yeah.

Like our phone is ringing off the hook and John says, the kids are calling. Do you, do you want to get it? And so I answer it. And the one of our kids is standing there with a fire extinguisher and goes, don't worry, mom. I've got the fire extinguisher. And, you know, like we're in the jungle.

You don't know about.

The fire yet.

Yeah, right.

Exactly. And I'm like, what is happening? And so, you know, like what? What's happening is not the issue. I go back in to yoga and John goes, is everything okay? And I go, yeah, all all good. Everything's fine.

Yeah, yeah.

And the fire extinguisher.

Yeah, they got the fire extinguisher and the like. On one hand, that was true. And it was like not of any use to talk about what was going on at that moment. We were trying to we were like doing doing yoga. It's like night time. We're we're winding down and there wasn't anything we could do. But the next day. So like, we're going through the day and we get to the afternoon and that's when we had free time. And I realized, like, I've been stepping out to like deal with the situation because there was a real situation that had happened. And so I'm like stepping out and making arrangements. I'm like going, I'm on the phone and every time he's like, everything okay? I'm like, yeah, good. Everything's great, everything's fine. And I well, what I realized is that I am using covert control.

Yeah.

I'm I'm not I'm not lying. On one hand, it's true. Everything is fine. But on the other hand, I'm also not telling him. I have told him zero about what actually happened in that original phone call or what any of the other things have happened since. So we're walking down to the beach and I say, you know, I realized that I've been using covert control and I'm not telling you what's going on. And part of that that started off because, like, I just didn't want to concern you with something that you don't need to deal with. But the other thing is that I'm realizing it's gone past that point now, and I like I'm not telling you because I don't want to deal with your reaction. I said, so just tell me, do you want to know?

And he goes, no, thank you. Thank you for not telling me. And I'm like, okay, great. We'll just keep going like this then and then like about we're like walking down the beach. And about ten minutes later he goes, okay, what happened? And so I tell him what happened.

And John, what's happened for you in that same, say, 12 hour window, like what's what's your parallel experience of that moment?

I honestly have no memory of it because I, it wasn't I don't remember that. I remember what else we did and, and you know, the weird evening that we had in like rec room B of the halfway down the hill, you know, like. Yeah. And the other and like, the best people watching those things other than, like, it's sort of like sort of like the Minnesota State Fair. It's pretty much the best. All the different kind of people watching at that that weekend was I mean, you didn't even notice that there were like literally primates hanging from the trees outside. That was you didn't need to be like, you didn't need to go up beyond the humans to find all the all the crazy stuff going on, you know, in just in a very revealing kind of kind of way.

Right. And that was another interesting perspective was like from being kind of the, the partner of, of staff. Right. You're kind of you can be as involved in you can be fully immersed like I'm a participant or you can be like, I'm going to skip this one or like I'm out or like actually already know the answer. So I could probably cheat on this one. Like, you know, you know, so you got kind of got all the benefit of it, but also could kind of watch all the different dynamics of, of, you know, being the being the partner along or you know, just, you know, kind of hanging out and, and talking to you kind of outside of the whole thing because you're not like, I'm, I'm, I'm not ruining the experience that we've committed to taking a week of our lives off. We've already tainted it with work. So, you know, it's like, you know, we may have it's a bonus at this point.

Did you think about it at all, though, like in that between when the kids were calling and and when I was like, so.

I mean, I can't remember, but yeah, but it's like I'm sure I knew intuitively, you know, something was something had burned or been destroyed, like we were talking single thousand dollars of of of of of issue. And, you know, it is what it is. Right? It turned out it had to replace a stove, which we already knew we had to replace, and it was just an impetus to doing it. It's just more kind of like what will last are all the like the 6 or 7 related good stories about it, I guess. So, yeah, for sure. We could do a whole episode.

What do you know about that moment between do you want me to tell you? No thanks, I'm good to. Okay, tell me what's going on. Like, do you remember this?

I mean, I could just I could imagine that. That I've been practicing yoga for ten years or something and for. For maybe the first three of them. Right. It was like a huge effort to not experience lots of things that like, I would go into yoga and I'd be like, I swear I did not lock my car door like, like someone's going to come like I would probably the first six months. I half the time walk back to my car, double track and before I, you know, quickly realized like, this is a mental gymnastics that my brain is doing on me, but like part of the practices and letting it go. So it's like the idea that I would know, like, hey, I don't want to know. And then I was I was almost certainly ten minutes later like, okay, we've, we've, we've done like a few minutes of yoga and I'm like, whatever, just tell me now.

Now I'm in a place where I can I can handle this. But before that it was like, we got to get here on time is about to start. There's a bunch of phone calls like, why are the kids calling? Right? And so you but that's true was just in a.

Context in relation to your body. Is that what you're describing? Like in relationship to my own body, I settled into whatever space I was in. And then I said, okay, now I have time to or now I have the bandwidth to hear the story.

Yeah. I mean, I think I'm aware that at above a certain threshold, which is probably not even my resting rate. Right. But if he's likely below average operating condition to be able to, like, effectively handle something without feeling all the extra noise about it. Yeah, right.

So then what? What's the what's the what's the denouement of your story?

Well, that when I told him, he responded in a way that was like the best response I could have imagined. And what I took from that was like, I have. I had so much. It started off that I didn't tell him the first, you know, when we were going into yoga, because there's no point in telling him. And then so it's kind of like a gift I'm giving him. I don't need to tell him this. I can just handle it. And then at some point, it switches from that being a gift to being this covert control of, I don't want to deal with what it's going to be like. I'm afraid of how he's going to respond. And there was a real cost actually to me in that.

And that when I actually told him and he responded in the way he did, which was truly like the best way I could have imagined, which was what he said was, I'm so proud of how the kids handled it, which was like the best response I could have imagined. And as I sat with that, I was like the the lesson of this is not just how easily covert control can slip back in for me, but that when it does, if I don't catch it, I, I rob us. I rob myself of the reparative experience to not receive. I basically cut myself off from being able to receive a reparative experience. And the way he responded was a was really a reparative experience for me.

Yeah. You had predicted what you thought was going to happen.

Yeah. I had predicted what what I thought was going to happen. It was based on on us, but it was also not just based, you know, like in this as part of the work. Right? Is it's not actually just based on us. It's based on my own history, my own relationship history, and my own family history of of why I started using covert control in the first place of like, I'll just take care of everything. Everything's just managed. Then nobody's upset. And if nobody's upset, then I'm okay. But that will go on. It's so easy for me to just go back into that. And part of it is that, you know, I do get responses when I tell him something difficult that are hard for me still, but they're not hard in the way that they used to be.

Hard, and they're certainly not of the magnitude of the kind of responses I've gotten historically in my life. Not from him. And it was it was a super useful learning for me to be like, wow, not only do I not get the response that I'm afraid of, but I get I get this repair that's not just about this one situation, but is actually about a whole series of things in my life.

Now, I have a totally different question that I want to ask about all this, because I think it's probably the question that my listeners are going to ask, but they don't know that they're going to ask it. You and me and people that we work with, we talk a lot about the work, got to do the work, the work, the work is the work. And you got to and I've been working on covert control, doing the work and blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then one of the things I make up about John, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, is that you're not really doing the work. You're just kind of kind of just doing life. You're just sort of doing you're just doing it.

And you can you have access to like the I mean, even just talking to you, you were like, yep, this makes sense to me. This is like, this is how people should treat each other. Yep, I get it. And then somehow you have access to the like, the best possible answer to the question, and I don't I'm not denigrating you and any work that you may or may not be doing, but I do wonder about those of us who are like really into the work and we do the work. And then there's other people who are like, yeah, man, I'm just kind of doing the right thing in my life. And that's what I try to do. Like, am I? Am I near, am I close to the thing and what I've made up like, or do you, do you like what do you think? How would you both describe your relationship to the work?

I mean, I have two thoughts about that. I think one is, in my experience, many of the people that say they're doing the work, I'm doing the work, I'm doing the work. It's like they're doing the parts of the work that they want to do sometimes, right? Like reading all the books I'm doing. I'm checking all the lists. I'm I'm showing up. I'm willing to go to 12 hours of therapy a day, but my partner is or like, you know, it's like, well, the work is often doing the thing you don't want to do. It's realizing, like the work is I mean, I do plenty if the if the work is doing things that you're uncomfortable with, that you didn't want to do, that you're like, you know, I'm I'm drowning in the work. Like, I don't want to own a house, like.

This. It's not for me. Not like my ego is not the reason why I have a house, but like, what ever it was ten plus years ago when I. When I had the, like one of those, you know, lifetime, you know, you're like kind of had those forced into an epiphany of life or of your of realization of yourself or like whatever, like things are not working. Need to try again. Like that's when I both began my, my own personal therapeutic journey of, of, you know, introspection as well as kind of, you know, exploring the path of yoga and mindfulness and, and. Right, they all kind of lead the same places, which is like the struggle is within yourself, like there's a way out, you know, it's like, that's just what your brain is telling you, like, you know, and once you start to be aware of that or awake to that, like you start to see it more and more places, right?

And then you start to see it. And then sometimes whatever way you want it to strive it like snap back into the dream or whatever, like, or get out of balance or start to be too withdrawn or two in people's like whatever way of extreme you go, like you realize that is most likely the source of your action like that, you know, to be able to at least learn, like when you're standing in line at Costco and seething at everyone else and their idiocy and their how they're doing this dude that it's probably like, wait, they were probably me.

Like, I like, if I like, it's probably like I probably could experience, like, have I ever experienced this without this happening? Yes I have what's different. Me okay like to like, you know. Yeah. Whatever way you want to think about. Right? Like whatever you want to be like you're experiencing too much anxiety and some exercises to, you know, think about and then so what happens. And then this has so what and then this. Right. Like that disaster. But like whatever way you want to think about it. Right. Every single one of these exercises, these that work right is just like leaning is not running away from that, but realizing it's all imagined state. Right. And that and that just as easily as you're imagining your unhappiness or your this problem, you could be imagining or experiencing it in a different way.

And like it's literally your problem how you do it, like it's no one else's. And well, I might forget that all the time, right? It's still to me like that's the message that that that I communicate that I've heard every time in, in any of these relational life events, you know, whether they're taking place as a, as a global pandemic is letting is letting loose and we're in Mexico together or whether it's like, you know, while you're watching, you know, kind of everybody's different experience in a, you know, like the most possibly, you know, conducive experience to therapy. And you still watch some people are like doing the work and other people are like experiencing the experience. And some people are just like, you know, whatever.

They think of. I understand what you're saying. I think when I think about doing the work, it's over there. I'm going to go over there and do the work. But it seems like what you're describing is, no, it's right here. Like I'm doing it all the time. I'm doing the work by owning my house and doing the work by trying to, you know, raise these kids and doing my work by trying to, like, stay sane in the middle of the traffic that I'm in, like.

Coming on this podcast on Thursday, like, you know, it's the work. Like it's the practice. Like like yoga is just about you just go and you do it right. You don't have an expectation. There is no at the end. You're not like like but but actually you are strong, right? Like you learn how to like the that. It's like the breath is the entryway into this. And it's like you learn some fundamental truth. So if I'm, if I'm not doing the work, though, it is like, I mean, not to not to say I'm, you know, we'd all love to tell the story where we're doing the best, but it's like, I'm I'm not doing some of that work now. Right? Like, I'm not as good about the that practice being the practice.

Right. And I feel the difference. Right. Like it's not optimal. And you're like, but today I've really. But today I need to work. Today I actually need to make dinner today I like I used to see those other people and they were like, well, I couldn't come today because I had this. And you're like, come on, man. Like, if you'd been here, you would have known that they actually didn't have to do the thing, like not on the other side. So it's not like I, it's not like I'm delusional. I'm thinking I'm thinking I'm, I'm, I'm over here just breezing through, doing all the work. Like, these other things are hard, but also it's just hard to even to to to to like. That's why the practice has to be the practice. Right? It's like you don't, you don't think about it.

And that's that's what I think is often the most difficult about whether it is like in the external world, right, where, where technology is moving so quickly now, or just like the fact that kids make time seem like a week is is a 15 minute interval, right? Or just like, you know, it's so easy to just fall out of out of that, that sink. And if you have like, sure, if I had the ideal day and I don't have to go to work anymore and no one needed to do anything, and I had a staff working at the house, I could definitely be a lot more mindful, like I would for sure. Yeah, I would, I would not waste the the fact that I could go and have like my private yoga session for three hours every day, like I would.

You totally do it. I could go sit on the beach in Hawaii. I think I would definitely get it in, at least on the goal. You. I have to test this theory someday. Someday, someday. But I was doing it before we were.

Yeah, well, what I was going to say is that I do think, like, that's actually one of the things that drew me to John was actually that he knew what the what the work was. He knew what his work was and that. So it's interesting because he wasn't so, like, I didn't have to convince him that there was work to do at all. And in fact, no, not at all. And people ask me that a lot because I do, you know, as you know, I, I reference our relationship a fair amount when I'm teaching and or doing therapy, frankly. And people ask me all the time, how long did it take to teach him to do that? And I'm like, I don't.

I make a concerted effort to not teach him that. That for me is a slippery slope. So I, I don't, you know, like I, we talk about it, but it's, it's his understanding of it for himself that is part of what I find wildly attractive and still find, you know, like that. That's a big draw for me, is that I don't have to tell him what the work is. That's his. That's his thing to figure out. And, you know, on a good day, I trust that he will on a bad day in disharmony. I'm like, why doesn't he remember that? There's work, you know? But that's again, like it's like being in line at Costco. What has changed? Yeah, maybe he's off, but also probably like on a good day that's I'm going to be like, oh, he's just off today. And on a bad day it's me making the story that he doesn't remember what the work is anymore.

Sing.

When you do, you want to hear you riff a little bit on this idea that you've been, say, working on covert control. Like when you work on covert control, what does that look like for you?

It looks like growing in my awareness and mindfulness about what it looks like or sound like, what it looks like in action. But because it's covert control, it's a lot less. It's it's sneaky hard to catch. So it's more like, what does it sound like? What's what? What's the story in my head that perpetuates it? What are the repeated phrases that I find myself saying to myself, thinking to myself and catching that, catching it sooner, talking to that part of myself, containing that part of myself. Reminding myself that that doesn't actually result in what I'm hoping for. But that's not like I've been doing this for a long time. It's certainly gotten easier. It's a lot easier in this relationship than it's ever been before, because I get positive reinforcement enough of the time that if I stay out of the covert control that he's warmer, more connected to me.

But it's still like in in a really intense moment, every bone in my body is telling, telling me to fix the situation, to manage the situation, to take care of the situation, to stop, to step in before anybody is uncomfortable like that, that still, you know, it can still be a very intense feeling, but it's way easier to to catch than it used to be and come back from.

So there's so. Always yeah. Yeah I mean I yeah I mean I was I've been I joined this gym about a year and a half ago for the first time in my life I'm lifting weights. I've just I've always been a cardio guy and now I'm like, kind of got this gym routine and I had my trainer, I don't know this guy. He said, hey, you're looking fierce, looking like fit and fitting something, something. And I was like, am I like, oh, I am like, because you don't notice sometimes when you're when you're right, when it's changing. But then like, I guess the evidence is in just like the people around you or whatever, but sometimes it's, you know, you don't just go and you're like, oh, look, it takes a year and a half, or it takes a year or whatever.

It takes me.

That's intriguing. The thing that I'm aware of as you're talking, and I think this is something that I'm aware of with Rebecca and I, and maybe it's something I try to sell to my clients, but I think you're describing it. Tell me if this is your experience is it's almost like if you agree with yourself to show up like an adult, it will solicit John to show up like an adult. If you if you don't make that agreement with yourself and you show up like a covertly controlling, you know, version of yourself, it solicits or invites him to show up in a way that's not quite his best. He might not take the bait, but it's almost like this idea that we can do it reciprocally, like that, like kind of begets like if you show up like an adult, then the adult is more likely to show up.

It's sometimes for me, it's the way rec answers the phone. If Rebecca answers the phone, it's like, hello or hi. I'm like, well, hi. Okay, let's do the positive thing. And she's like, hello?

You know.

I'm like, here we go. I guess I got to be protective of whatever I did wrong earlier today, you know.

Like, right.

I think that's what it sounds like. That's a little bit of what you're describing. When you decide not to make up the story and predict his response, it's solicits or allows this other thing to happen.

Yeah, I would say that that is the that is absolutely what I believe and what I find to be true and I and and to go to that question of what's hard, what's hardest for me still is if I think that I'm showing up or I'm being intentional about showing up in my wise adult, and he's like, you're not in your wise adult. And I'm.

Like, I'm not giving you credit.

Fuck you.

Yeah, yeah.

You know.

Like, you have no idea what I've been doing. I've been doing. So that's why I were not. That is.

I am very likely to respond like I've been doing all my work. Why don't you see all the work I'm doing? Like, how can you not acknowledge that I'm making this shift?

I, I brought this up the right way.

I did, I, I used all of my skills, you know, like, and again, that's on a bad day and then and it's.

And whose bad day.

It's my that's my bad day. That's my bad day. Because what happens is whether I was or wasn't. If he meets me with.

If. He said I.

Would do.

Yeah.

If he if he's like, you're not doing it. Which again stay out of my lane, dude. You know, but like whatever. That's like that's not for me to say. I if I respond with rationalization, justification, defensiveness, trying to convince him because that's what is going to like that's the other part of covert control is actually then you're not seeing me. So now I'm going to try and convince you and moving into being right that I was being good in the first place were we're screwed. And but that's my bad day. I don't get to say whether he's having a bad day or not. I don't get to say whether he's doing his work or not. Just like he doesn't actually get to say whether I'm doing it or not. So when he does do that thing, I have a choice about how I respond. I'd say I've gotten much better, but I still take the bait all the time.

Yeah, yeah. Me too. So how do you get out? Like, how did the two of you get out of a situation like that?

Did you? I'll let you handle that one. A good day, as if one or the other of us couldn't catch it.

Like we don't know. We don't know. In fact, we're about to get into it right now.

No.

I, we like it's, you know, like that's that's the work. That's our continued work.

Yeah. That's that will get out of it. Right. It's like eventually somebody snaps out of it enough and they're like, all right, like, let's fix this. Right. And and I think just by default. Right. Like, there's only so far that it goes. It's not like I mean, the realm of what like out of whack is, is like reasonable, right? It's like at our absolute worst. It's not like it's on, you know, it's not pleasant. You don't want to live in that space. But there's not it's not like things are spiraling out of control or, you know, it's like it's just like, well, well, guess we're not talking for a while. Like about, like an outbreak an hour. The two hours, like mad at each other for a little while.

Like, you know, it's not figured out. It's not like you're somebody starts packing and leaving. It's just like, you know. All right, well, I guess we gotta. We gotta fix this. Just like when you can't handle dealing with anything else, you're like, I'm not gonna work on this work anymore. I'm never going to be able to get back to this. And it's like, eventually you're like, all right.

There it is.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think that's that's a big that's that's what's true is that it's not it doesn't spiral. I mean, it's not like it never gets intense or bad. It's just that it doesn't really spiral out of control. We can come back.

Yeah. This is what I did at Costco in the line at Costco. Are you ready? Yeah. I was sitting there screaming at people, and I was alone, so I was just screaming at my windshield, basically. And I realized how disgusting I felt. And just I felt gross, and I felt like, whatever. So I literally dropped my chin into my chest like this. And I went, anybody else available? And. I auditioned few different people. I was like, what about introvert guy? Maybe he could just look on his phone and not care. What about whatever? And then I ended up picking silly song guy and silly song guy was like, I can't believe I got in the wrong line at Costco. And why did that guy put his bumper sticker on crooked?

And this guy doesn't have his wallet, and I wonder what his deal is. And cheese. Kind of cute, but you're married, so that's not going to work. And there's going to. And I just like took back my self. And I just said, you know and what's what's wild is I think I'm willing to call that work.

I sure like absolutely.

Snap out of it. Right.

Like that.

Like get over yourself.

Like if we're if we're arguing with you as we both are aware, like at immediate subconscious level, like we're both wrong because if either one of us was not until like, this would not be happening, right? Like when one of us is on tilt and the other one is not like, just like when she's. I know when she's telling me how she's been doing the work and how she did this right, that she's a little on tilt because and most of the time I'm like most of the time I'm like, I'm aware you're on tilt and like, you know. Not to myself. Right. And so it's just like, if I'm not until I can just I can deal with it. But it's like when I'm on, I'm.

Like, John, I.

Don't. Think this is this is accurate. Right? Then I'm not pointed out and then eventually, right. Like, obviously you realize that that there's there's something that you're wrong about. What if it's not all of it or any of it? It's like, so, so how do you kind of stop going that way and start going this way? Yeah.

Yeah.

I think like to that point though, any time that we get into well, this is the work, not that. Right.

That's a good sign that you're on.

That's that's a sign that you're not doing the work.

Yeah. It's like the poker players like the cards keep screwing. It's like you might be on tilt. Like. Yeah, it's just math, man.

Well, listen, you guys did great. How are you feeling at the end of your at the end of your podcast, you know, debutante ball situation.

Just like I do at the end of any interview. Relieved that it's over. No. Yeah. Delusional that it went better than I thought.

I feel great, I good. Yeah. You know, the the weird thing about using our relationship as a reference point in my teaching, not the weird thing. Like the good thing. It is a reminder of what an amazing partner I have. Like I, I am often reminded of what an amazing partner I have and like, why did I fall in love with this person and why do I, you know, deal with the stuff? That's hard. Yeah, because I get enough of the stuff that's good. And and when I, when I hear him in his best self. But more than that, when I like, think of who he really is and, and like the ways in which he shows up. It's so positively reinforcing. And having been a relationship therapist in not a good relationship, I know how that can feel different. And so like I have a real reference point within myself about what it felt like to work with couples and not and be just like.

Yeah, feel like a little bit of a fraud sometimes.

Yeah. Very deeply. And yeah, to be like, I don't, I feel, I don't feel that. I feel so grateful for the actual like fire of our relationship, like the, the, the mixing bowl, the crucible, the, the, the stuff of it, the alchemy of it that I, the transformation of it that I when I am using it as a reference, it's always a reminder of how much gratitude I have for for him and for how he's shown up in my life and my kids life. Yeah, the way he sees the world.

I'm very glad to know you both. I'm glad that you came on syrupy radio, and that I get to share your story with 8 billion people. And yeah, thanks. Thanks so much. Thank you for being a person who speaks wisdom into my life. And, John, I just really I'm glad to know you too. And so I'm I'm happy that we got to make this work.

Yeah. Thanks for inviting.

Thanks for being in our lives. To Zach.