From Pattern to Partnership | Session 3 with Brian and Kristen

How's it going? How's it going? How's this going for you guys?

You go.

You know, I have a lot of thought, which is. This is great. Like, we're. We just said a little, like, hey, like, the last 20 minutes. All right. But but it was in talking about this experience and talking and talking about talking with you tonight. And we're not a couple. That argues a lot. I've said that before, but what this has done for me is it's sort of, you know, okay, you're a couple. We're not. Nothing's majorly wrong. Like, you know, there's no deceit or, you know, no crimes have been committed here. And so the spotlight that you've helped shine on our relationship the last couple of weeks has sort of like made us, you know, stand up a little straighter and act a little better than we had been acting. It just puts a magnifying glass.

I'm like, oh, look, you can you can go three weeks without a tiff, you know, almost so close, so close. We had some different opinions about the topic that Brian had chosen tonight. Whereas like, I'm kind of thinking about it like this, and I guess Brian wasn't thinking about it like that. So we sort of got into like a sadder place of like, why are you thinking of it like that? And like, here's what I really need out of this and, and such like that. So I even said, like, are we going to stop talking and just wait to talk to Zach or are we going to, you know, what'd you do? We we talked it out.

We talked it out. I, I did do the thing that I said I was going to do where you said, I'm going to go downstairs. And I said, I'm going to stay here. And then.

I didn't.

She didn't going to say.

It's like,

But I will say that one thing that I took on that I like is like deliberately being ridiculously defensive to remind myself how silly it is and to add a little bit of play, like, she's like, I was trying to it was over at the sink. I was like, you know, you were.

You leave this here. I was like, what?

What do you mean? How dare you? You know, and then like, so, you.

Know, then we're both smiling like what you did there, you know?

Yeah.

I did it, like, three more times that day because it was so funny to me. Well, I'm glad she's not me, because if she was me, she might have gotten that some about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I don't know. We've we've been together a long time. And so, you know, we don't have any big crimes that have been committed here. But we do have like some bad patterns and some of them we put in place ourselves.

Yeah.

You know.

Well all of them you put in place yourselves okay. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

The pattern didn't exist before the two of you came in to to create this thing called, you know, Brian and Kristen like that. There was no pattern before that. So it got created by the two of you?

Yeah.

I can't tell if this is a Kristen. I can't tell if this is like an endorsement of therapy or kind of a we shouldn't have done this because now we're having a, you know, we're more aware of the thing. And I have a suspicion. But what do you say to the people who are like, yeah, we're fine. We don't need therapy. It's they might be right, but what are you trying to say to those folks?

No, I think this is great. This is, This is great. This. We're we're a couple that wants it to be good. Yeah, we're a couple that wants to have, you know, sex on the rag, and we want to show each other off, you know? And and. Yeah, we want to be proud of each other. So anything that moves the needle toward those things, I'm all for it.

All right. Cool.

I'm that classic, like, wife that's like, oh, I noticed an issue. Let's let's backtrack there. I want to have something I want to bring up. And that's part of our dynamic. Right.

Yeah okay.

Yeah. Negative dynamic.

Are we getting to the topic that you want to talk about. No.

Okay okay. Well so like 40 minutes ago. We're talking about this talking to you tonight. Yep. And Brian wanted to talk about over functioning and under functioning.

I remember.

And I'm I'm I'm serious. Getting ready or finishing my day or whatever. And I'm like, hey, like, these are the these are what I'm thinking about. Like yes, it's over functioning under functioning. But it's also, you know, mental load. And I think that overlaps in here somewhere. And it's also, you know, what Brian mentioned, which is like the change partner and the agree partner I.

Think partner.

Except partner I would say agree. I think that has an overlap here too. Yeah. It's not so much I don't want to drag Brian through the mud. I think we've talked about. Ways that he wants to improve or issues that he's grown through. This is a great guy right here. He's worked really hard. You know, he was great in the beginning. He was super supportive to me. Still is like this is my number one fan right here. This under functioning over functioning thing is a point of pain for him. You know nobody wants to be told they're under functioning. I 100% get that. I don't I don't feel like being called an over or is any prize. That's not something I'm really proud of. I don't I don't know that Brian and I are really seeing eye to eye on that. I think he feels more hurt than I do about that, and I can respect that.

So yeah, that's that's kind of where we were going. And Brian had some slightly different ideas. And, I think you had told us to talk about examples to and a lot of my examples are, are like, I don't know, is that mental load, is that over functioning or is that overthinking.

Yeah. Or is it functioning. You know, like there's over functioning and there's under functioning and then there's functioning. The other thing that gets lost in the mix is that we're making it up. We're defining over and under. And a lot of that's not usually clinical. Right.

Which is a good point Zach I you know this. You know I didn't you know another thing is like we're on our best behavior when we're first together. Right. Like 24 years in we're a little bit more intimate. Yeah a little a little bit more free to say ouch. That hurt. Right.

Well, more clear to about what's underneath the veneer and, like, what's the like what you're really dealing with. Yeah.

So when you and Laura talked about over functioning and under functioning in whatever episode that was, I was sort of like, oh, wow, cool. Like a label, a way to think about it. Not a label, but a way to think about it, a framework to put it in. Moving on, you know. But Bryant Brian doesn't feel that way.

So, okay, one of the things that, that you have said in the podcast, Zach, that I love and have said in my own. Time to coworkers, etc., is. Theories are all good and they're also all wrong, you know? Yeah, I might not have that exactly right. But yeah, something like they're all helpful and they're also all not quite right. Like they.

Don't have.

A theory. Yeah.

You can have a theory. You just need to test it or you know, there's another one I like, which is you can fall in love with your theory. You just can't marry it, right? You know? But, yeah, we're forming theories all the time, and there's lots that we're making, meaning we're making up stories. That's just kind of the way that brains work is that we see a thing, and then we make that thing mean something. So I'll ask clients all the time. What's your theory about that? Before we lean into this conversation a little bit more, though, I do want to ask a question which is sort of universal. You take a topic like this, let's call it over functioning under functioning. And you say, I want to talk about it. I go, okay, let's talk about it.

But if we talk about it and for the next half hour and at the end of that conversation, you're like, yeah, I'm glad we talked about it. That's what I wanted. That's that was a successful talk about this thing. What happens in the next half hour? What do you get? What is the what is the successful version of a conversation about over functioning and under functioning or really anything, which I think is a critical question to be asking before you start, especially if it's going to be tough.

Well, I have an answer to that. And is that what I gleaned from your podcast, whatever episode that was, is that like, okay, everybody has that dynamic and then what what do you do with it? How do you move on? How do you have a great life? So like, okay, maybe this is a dynamic we have, but like, so what. So how do we keep living our life, you know, without like digging our tires deeper and deeper in the mud? How can we just sort of like, oh, that's I don't I don't know that I don't know the answer to.

Yeah. Brian, it's important to you to talk about it if it's a pain point for you. And then we also talk about it and it goes, well, what happens? What do you get.

At the end of last session when you were like, and you know, who knows, maybe we need to pick on Kristen a little bit. And so this this was maybe my, my way of being like, well, here's something that I feel like is a contributing factor to problem areas. So maybe that's an area that we can pick on Kristen about. Like, of course I don't want to I don't want to pick on my wife. Like, no, I mean, yeah.

But but but if we talk about it sounds like sounds like part of what you were advocating for is that we have this talk, and if we talk about it, maybe Kristen will dial it down a few notches. Yes. That's the that's the successful version of this conversation is that there's change. And for you it's change in her.

Yep.

Yeah. I think he would like me to not mention it ever again.

Not mention what.

I did, I did I say that, but.

But that's what you would like me to do.

I would like us to.

Sorry. What is it?

The over function or under function or like never. If that's if that's the thing where like the discussion has started and, Kristen brings it up, it's like that. That's the backwards engineering of like, okay, how does this go really badly. That's one of the ways.

Is that you're in the middle of a conversation, you're talking about whatever you're talking about. And then Kristen says, well, this is just an example.

Example of.

This is kind of over functioning. Again, I hate that I'm over functioning.

You've asked me to over function here. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I would say. Oh yeah okay.

Yeah. One example.

I came home from work and the, the there wasn't snow removed from my steps or my driveway and I and it was a sunny day. So my over functioning self, if it were me my over functioning self would be like, oh, it's a sunny day. Like now's the time to clear the the walkway, the steps that the that's that's how you, you know, it's only the beginning of winter. We're just going to get more snow. Push it back, push it back, push it back. And none of that had been done. So I came home and I'm I'm like, oh man. Like I just got home and like, I feel like I'm being asked to over function this, like I've been working all day. You've been here and now, but I don't know. Is that just meant to load? Is that is that mental load and overthinking of like, oh, the sun's out, now's the time.

I don't know, man. I mean, you could come home and you could pull up to your driveway and you could see that it's full of snow. And you at that point you have a few options, right? Maybe have you have 100 options, but one of them is to say, This is inconvenient and snowy and oh, that's one option you have. One option you have is to come in the house and go, what the hell is wrong with everybody? And why isn't the snow done and why? Another option is for you to put your car in park. Get out. Walk around to the back, pull out your shovel, start shoveling your driveway so you can pull into your driveway. That's an option that you have.

You could come in and say, hey, Brian, are you okay? Is everything all right? Because typically you would be a guy who would shovel. I mean, like under the sentiment of maybe he's broke his foot, or maybe he went out there to shovel because he's a good guy and he broke his foot like, oh, you know, like there's all kinds of options. And I don't know which ones fall into the realm of over and under functioning. The reality is, you came home with an expectation that you would be able to safely pull into your driveway and walk into your front door. And when you got there, that expectation was thwarted. And then the relationship started to happen. And it started to happen because primarily because of the story you started telling yourself, you know, which might have been in the neighborhood of Lazy Bum didn't do anything.

And why isn't he exactly like me? And if he was like me, he would have figured this out already, and I would have shoveled this driveway and the neighbor's driveway because she's dying of cancer and I don't, you know, like, and you start with that story, then you walk in the door and we're off and running. You know, you pull in and you go, oh, I hope Brian's okay. And you walk in and say, hey, man, everything all right? Yeah, yeah. Why? Why is there why, why, yeah. All I can tell you is I didn't expect there to be snow in the driveway when I got home. I don't know what to do about that. You know, if that Brian causes you to then spin out into your defensive space.

That's me.

We got we got another thing to deal with, you know, now we're just passing the ball back and forth. Yeah. I got a question for you, though, Brian. If your wife comes home, pulls into the front of the house and sees that the driveway that she thought was going to be shoveled and the sidewalk that she. This is all she created, this in her head might, might have been an unreasonable expectation. But if she comes home, she has this expectation and she and that expectation hasn't been met. And then she walks in the door. What do you want her to say?

Hi.

Okay. So you want her to come in and say hi? Hi. Okay then what?

Well, so. Oh, man, my defensive brain is just, like, working overtime right now.

Let us hang with me for a second.

No, no, no, I mean, what I mean is, like, there's this. Oh, and what about this? And this wasn't a this wasn't part of that story. And what about this nuance and the thing you get really, really, you know, so all of that is going on right now. So I'm trying to like nope, nope. That's not the question. That's not the question. He didn't ask about any of that. So, I'm not I'm not saying like I'm flooded. What I'm saying is there's there's a lot of.

You're.

Working hard, really easy strands to grab and be like, well, what? You don't know, Izak, is this and this and this and this, and that's not what we're talking about.

So let me be clear to for the people who aren't listening to, who are listening to us, this is actually a question I ask a lot because people are very clear what they don't want. I don't want her to say, you're over, I'm over functioning or you're under their very clear about that. And also and again, I don't really care at all about the details of, of this particular moment. The driveway had an inch of snow or 12 inch. That's not my point. My point is, if the woman you're married to is has an expectation, let's say, of you, and that expectation hasn't been met, what do you want her to say? Nothing. Something. What's something?

Right. I would like to have her say something along the lines of, hey, I you know, what you up to? Or has it been going this morning?

Establish some rapport, some contact. Okay. Yeah. All right.

To connect first.

To connect first. Yes. Yes. To connect first. Because that that's that was the first thing that left me kind of like nonplused like. Oh, hi. You know. Yeah. So she she came home from work, and there was immediately a request. I was like, oh, she's home. I'm so happy to see her. Okay. What's going on with the driveway or whatever it was? I don't remember what it was and it may not have been that, so I may not be.

Yeah.

Be being there. That's not correct.

But this is an interesting it's an interesting piece of the puzzle because at some level, you've just told me that we're not talking about over functioning and functioning. We're talking about connective tissue to set up any conversation like I want there to be a contract, some consent, some connection that predates or that precedes the what do they say? This is a kids thing, right? This is a parenting thing. Connection before correction or something like that. It's like you you're it's really important to you that there's a agreement that this is what we're talking about. So sometimes it's even like, hey, good to see you. How are you doing? Blah blah blah blah. Did you have a good day? Hey, can I ask you about. Can I ask you a question about the driveway? Yeah, like, that would have gone a lot better.

It was.

For sure.

Yeah, it would have.

Yeah. And more of that.

Yeah. Do more of that.

And also like it was like usually when you come home from work in the middle of the day, like I am happy to see her, I'm like, oh yay. Well we'll all like connect and you know, then she'll go back to work. And this is how it's usually been going over this school break where Brian's at home with the kids, and Kristin is working at her job. And so it's like what you say, it's like one of those things where when you miss it, you miss it, you know? So I was like, oh, yeah, she's coming home cool. Mom's home, you know? And then it was like, it wasn't that. And so I missed it. And so that was one of the things that I think set that.

Well, we had hungry, angry, lonely, tired as a major factor that day.

With the children. Yeah. For sure.

No, Connie, Connie, we found out that morning.

Yeah. So tricky December.

Yeah. So, you know, hungry, angry, lonely. Tired isn't is real. I mean, we were not our best selves. So I'm coming home and I'm not my best self. And I wasn't thinking about Brian.

Yeah. Hey, be explicit with Jason about what you want. Cut out.

Sure.

Well, our friend Connie died. Our friend died, and we found out that morning, and I came home for lunch, and we had this, like, unusually tense moment. And it wasn't until way later, hours later in the evening, that I was like, oh, my God, like, what a day we've had. Like, we got in that weird fight and like, oh my God, our friend died. Like, you know, we should have reconnected and like, hugged. We should. We had seen each other after getting this news and we should have hugged each other. Yeah, we we should have, you know, embraced and been sad for a minute together. But instead it was like, oh, this hasn't been done. Let me grab a shovel like that. And I think you just can't get out of your own way sometimes, you know?

Yeah.

Hungry, angry, lonely, tired is a thing, Zach. And so that's like you just doing it day in, day out and something happened. We've talked about this before, but like it, it's nothing. Like I said, nothing super broken here. It's just. How do we just keep being great?

Yeah, well, I guess I have a question to about for you, Kristen. And we're just wandering around. I wouldn't even know if this is quite therapeutic. It's more just curious for me, but, you get out of the car. What do you do for a living?

I, I work in a I work in the medical field at at a hospital.

I have you I had you at a school like a teacher or something. But, you know, if you get out of the car and you're like. This works better if you're a teacher, if you get out of the car and you're like, immediately in teacher mode, like instead of transitioning into something like wife mode or mom mode, or if you're staying in hospital administrator mode or you're staying in safety expert mode or you're staying in, you know, it seems like it's not really an issue of over functioning, ordering, functioning. It's really an issue of kind of role clarity, you know, do you do you walk in and say, okay, yep, moms, home moms here, moms fully here, moms doing the whole thing, I call it sometimes I call it the the Mister Rogers moment where you go from out there to in here, like you really specific you you make the transition all the way in and then you say, hey, what's up with the driveway?

Yeah.

You know, from the from the Co. Yeah. Position from the, from the side by side position rather than from the on high hospital administrator position. You know and I don't you know is that over functioning is that mental load. I think it's just role clarity in a lot of ways. You know, I mean, and Brian, as a way of not being defensive, you know, you can recognize the role imbalance and just say, oh sorry. Can I speak to my wife first please?

Yeah. Yeah. We've had to do that in our we had early we used to have these early morning talks where we I would wake up and I would want to say the thing I was thinking about on my or. Right. And so, you know, we only have a little bit of maybe an hour in the morning. And so he'll come downstairs and I'll be like, oh, okay, so what about this? And what about that and your sister and the holiday and at the and, and then we would get in fights in the morning as we were trying to get out the door, you know, and he's like, oh you really can't talk about this. Like I need 20 minutes. And I'm like, But I'm ready to talk like I've got ideas.

Yeah.

And so that's as you're talking about role clarity. And we had to say he had to say, we can't talk about this stuff when we're trying to get out the door in the morning. Yeah. If you have things like that to tell me you need to save them. I really can't go off to work like that. You know, it was touch and go there for a little bit because it's just a learning curve. But I think we've shaped that up pretty well. Just that clarity of like, I want to talk about these things, but not not at this hour.

Yeah. Well again, that's where I think like I'm, I'm like lately especially I'm super keen on context. Context matters. Context matters. Context matters. So the first question I asked, which is if we have this conversation and it goes, well, what happens for each of us? And again this is along the lines of do you want to be helped, hurt or hugged? But even if it's, you know, if it's like, I want to talk about this because I want a solution that's very different than I want to talk about it, because I just want to vent for a little while. And then the second thing is, I always say that you got to have you got to know who's talking to who.

If I'm Brian the husband, and I'm talking to Kristen, the hospital administrator, maybe that doesn't work, you know, or if I'm Kristen, the wife, and I'm talking to Brian, the the shy little boy who, you know, doesn't know how to shovel because it's dad never taught him or something like, that's not going to go well. It's going to compound the, the injury. And so, you know, a lot of it is figuring out how to align whatever we're talking about and then also show up in the skin that is going to best represent our, our, our desire to stay connected.

Yeah. I mean, is it is it really foolish to be like, okay, we just don't use those terms anymore. We just don't talk about that.

Well, what we know is that they're not helpful, so you could use them. But but we know that they're not serving any real purpose right now except to for Brian anyway to flag something. But I also part of why you could retire is I don't really think it's the issue. I don't think over and under functioning is the issue. I think showing up is the issue. But who's showing up? Because there are times when you're with the thing that we're labeling over functioning is actually a really important blessing for the family. You know, and the thing that Brian's doing that we're calling under functioning is actually part of what stabilizes and organizes and provides, you know, consistency to the the family. Like, we have to recognize that there's usually an upside to everything that we want to label with a downside. But right now, it doesn't sound like those words are actually all that helpful.

True, true.

Now, I think you saying something that's really important to you. Hey, I need you to know, when I got home and the driveway was covered in snow, I was kind of bummed. And I tried real hard to make room for the many reasons that you didn't do it, but I sometimes my brain can't figure that out. So could you help me out? You know, like that? That's legit. Because. You know, that would be a nonstarter in my house. Just because my wife has bad hips and knees and ankles and toes and, you know, we all do. So driveways got to be clear. Never snows here. So we got that going for us. But, you know, it's a reasonable expectation. This is why I was back to that question.

But there's a if there's a request or if there's an issue, there's a concern. What am I supposed to say? And I know plenty of guys, by the way, I don't know women too, but mostly it's men who would who would be happy if the answer was, oh, just they should figure it out herself. She's she's say nothing like my. That's not gonna work because you're together.

Not for long anyway.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is, you know, I'm talking to Brian now, but this is kind of what I was thinking. This is kind of what I was thinking about, like, context.

Thank you for writing context that matters. Yeah.

There's more nuance to this. It's not just like, this is you and this is me. It. I mean, I hear I hear Zach saying, like, you know, what's the setting? What's the role like what's, you know, how's the setup going?

Yeah, I've done a lot of, I, you know, I've done a lot of thinking about my own work that I've got to do, and I've. I was also like, coming to. Okay, why, why, why did those why do those roles or those terms bum me out so much. And yeah.

I do they.

Oh I know. Okay. It's you know it was my, it's family of origin stuff. It's like my mother's complaints with all three of her husband's. Rose. You never do this. You never do that. You never do the other.

I might explain why she had three husbands.

I love you, mom, I love you. Yeah.

Wait. We could take that part out. I don't want to denigrate.

Your mom. No, no. Anyway it's, it's family of origin so far as, like as I'm trying to course correct away from the do nothing and the like, I don't care. Like let her figure it out guy.

Here he is like, actively trying to not be.

That I'm working him working and somehow I miss the mark. But how did I miss the mark again? Like this is what I was saying. It feels like a puzzle that no matter. Like I keep trying to figure out ways to solve it. And just when I think I've got it, it's like.

How did I. How did.

How does that how does this piece not go there? That's, you know, and that's, that's the that's the frustrating part of it for me. It's like I keep I keep trying and I'm not like just trying the same thing. Like I'm getting feedback and I'm like, okay, got that. Incorporate it. Look around for things that need to be done. Make yourself useful. I can hear that and be open to that. And yes, I can do more of that okay, okay. I can do that. I can do that. What again. You know, so that's that's where that's coming from. Where it's just like I'm not I'm not doing nothing. And you know, the the state of not doing nothing. And then being told you're still under functioning. Yeah. Or I still perceive this dynamic as one where you are the under function or if I'm circumlocution that correctly or whatever. But that's the.

I wonder Kristen.

That's what are you.

What are you trying to communicate? Are you trying to communicate something binary like one of us over functions and one of us under functions? Or are you trying to ask for something? Because I do. I guess I'm more and more on the train of no, the labels aren't helpful. Yeah, but there is a thing you're trying to communicate that is important. Which is what I need help.

Yeah, probably. Probably. I mean, as the over function.

Which is a label.

Because we've dropped that term, so. Well, yeah. Yeah. I am doing too much. I'm overthinking too much. You know, I'm going ahead. You know, I'm thinking about a plan, executing a plan, dragging others along with my plan. I would love for somebody else to think up the plan before I do. Yeah, maybe I could sit back. You know, that's maybe at the core of it, what it really is. And, you know, like I said at the beginning of this conversation, some of this we set up ourselves incorrectly. Yeah. And so, you know, parenting or job changes come into play, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, we didn't really set that up so well. We need to like redistribute what's, what's what and and undo what we did.

Yeah.

I think I did too much in the beginning of our relationship and we agreed to it. We were like, oh, Kristen, how about you X, y, z? And we were both like, yeah, yeah. Kristen. Well, x, y, z. And years later it's like, oh, I really we really did a disservice to both of us. So now it's sort of untangling those little bits and some of it comes out wrong when I could just ask for help.

Yeah, yeah. One more thing. And then I'm aware of Brian, as we kind of talk about this, is you've been clear about some things that push your buttons that are problematic for you. And I said a little bit before we know what we don't want, we know what you want less of. Are you able to say to Kristen right now what you want more of?

I want, more connection and more appreciation.

Awesome. Because I'm because I'm not clear what that means. What counts as connection and appreciation?

Just the rituals of the day. Hey. Morning. Kiss. Like, keeping up with that and appreciation. Hey, you know, thanks for starting that load of laundry. I really appreciate that.

You can handle. Please shovel the driveway yesterday from someone that you know appreciates you and is connected to you, and that has that. You guys have the same sort of core value set in hand, and you and you appreciate each other as co laborers and collaborators.

Correct. Okay.

What do you think about that.

I'm oh that's a good deal. That's a good deal I want to appreciate him I want to tell him more. I heard you say you know I heard you say something recently about apologizing. And, like, if it's hard to apologize for the big stuff, like start apologizing for the small stuff. Yeah. And I've really taken that to heart because I. It is hard for me to apologize, but I, I've sort of flipped it over to appreciating two because it's really easy to just like, hey, thanks for getting the kids up. And also like, I really appreciate, you know, you getting them off to school today. It's really easy to like habit stack those two things. So I'm all on board for that.

Well, I really appreciate you guys hanging out with me here on Marriage Radio and letting me wander around in your relationship. I'm grateful, honestly, that your longtime fans that you listen and it's clear that you listen and you remember things I say that like, touches my heart makes me feel like, oh, what we're doing here is really cool. I wonder if you have any reflections on like takeaways that you may let follow you around for the next little span of time and then. Yeah, and then we'll I'll thank you for the time and attention that you're putting into making your relationship better today than it was yesterday.

Takeaways, takeaways. You know, it's the way that you, I like the way that you ping pong back and forth between a couple because, you know, maybe one, one person is saying is super important and it's it's also yeah, I think the way the other person responds to whatever that big thing is, is also really important. And I just, I like the way that you give space for like the really big thing and also the reflection or reaction to whatever one person just said. Like, to me it seems fair. It seems like, you know, the long, the long game is in mind. Yeah. And relationships are hard and it's also really fun. So thanks for helping us along.

Yeah, yeah. You're welcome. I think of what you're describing as turns. I think people need to take turns and they need to take turns respectfully, like they do when they're playing games. Like you don't just take your turn because you're ready to take your turn. You take your turn because the other person's turn is over, and then you play turns to see, like, how do we respond to all this stuff? And if we're playing to prolong the game, then we're collaborating on our turns. If we're playing to win, then I got to figure out how to jockey to get into a better position now that you've made your move. But I'm pro long game for sure, because I don't know, it's more fun.

Plus, we're rooting for death, right?

We're rooting for.

Death.

If we're not playing the long game.

Well, I always say marriage ended in divorce or death.

So we're.

Rooting for one of the one of those rare situations where you're rooting for death. Brian. You have to take away their to that you can leave us with before we shut it down.

I mean, to take away for from the arc the from these three episodes. If you say you want an answer from somebody, be ready for it to be not what you expected. Just like I really respect you, Zach, as a therapist and also someone who has done work on their defensiveness. And so I really meant it when I said, just tell me if it's me and if it's my work to do, I will do it. And when I asked that question, I was I was so I was so surprised by the answer because I was so sure of what you were going to say in my head, of course, that I didn't even have time to mount a defensive response. I think I said that in a previous episode. So if you're going to ask somebody, tell me the thing, tell me the thing. Yeah. Then get ready for them to tell you the freaking thing, because they're going to tell you and get ready to hear it and do something with it, dude, because it's important.

You guys high fiving each other. That's amazing. Well, listen, thank you so much again. I really appreciate you both. I'm so glad that we pulled this off. And yeah, look forward to sharing your, your kind of your journey with the world. And I really do want to thank you for the time and attention you're putting into making your relationship better today than it was yesterday.

Isaac. Thank you.