People Matter, Things Don’t with Justin and Kylie Coulson

I feel like we're about to do therapy.

No, no, no, I would love it. I love doing therapy, in this context, not necessarily doing therapy, but like getting past or behind people's stick their talking points. Like, I love kind of going, hey, what what's really going on for you guys? But, anyway, Kylie was just telling Justin that my daughter is on a gap year. She's 18 and she's graduated from high school, and she's, we enrolled her in a cohort that's traveling the world. They just spent six weeks in Europe, and today she landed in Australia, where she will be there for the next three weeks. They're doing a different a week in a different town each time. But, Yeah, I guess she's in. We think maybe she's in Melbourne right now.

Next.

We're big fans of gap years. We, the research evidence is really, really compelling. And as somebody who went back to school in his late 20s, and then became a university lecturer because I started school so long and I got all the qualifications and things, working with school leavers versus working with mature age students. Oh my goodness. Like multiple gap years, not just one, 2 or 3.

For.

Years makes such a difference in terms of the the learning experience and the quality of education that you get.

Well, I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you go from being 18 and in high school to studying the thing you want to do for the rest of your life, like in one year. So she was never kind of a college bound kid, but she this is perfect for her to go and to sort of see the whole thing. So they're going to be in Australia for three weeks, and then they do Thailand for three weeks, and then she comes home and then she goes to Japan for 12 weeks and she's going to learn Japanese. So by the end of her sort of freshman year in college, she's going to have been in, I mean, all over the world and learned a language and met people and seen things that I mean, I still haven't seen, you know, I, I, I don't know, I don't know anything about anything. So anyway, what are you guys up to? What time is it?

What is it, 9 a.m. Friday morning. Okay. Yeah, we've been for a while this morning. We haven't posted. We do.

45.

45 case. Then I went for a surf. You went to an appointment, and now here we are. All right on this half done.

You did all of that before 9 a.m..

That's right.

What's that about? Like, does that just. Is that part of your thing? Do you guys get up early and seize the day? I mean, is that your brand? Is that your bit?

Yeah. We're probably up around five most mornings. And Kylie just loves cycling with me.

Is that not real?

No, it is, it is. But we've tried over the years to cycle together, and it hasn't been particularly successful until we brought me a pedal assist, a bike ride.

Yeah, I.

Know with him. And I actually overtake him this morning.

Kylie takes just so much delight in riding me off her wheel like she just. She's an absolute powerhouse, this bike. She's still working super hard, but it just gives you that extra push. And, I'm reasonably fit, but Carly's just destroying me at the moment. And especially on the hills.

Yeah, that's not too bad. Okay. What have you guys got going on? So you are you're a you're you're a couple. You've got a ton of kids, right? Six. Is that right?

Yeah.

Five girls, six girls. Jeez. All right.

Okay.

Why? Why do you have six girls?

The procreative process, results in children, and we've apparently done that six times now. Yeah.

So do you have are they all any of them twins or triplets?

No.

No, we I really wanted twins, but we ended up with twins three years apart. We have two daughters. Our first two daughters were born on the same day. Three, three years apart.

Okay. And what's the range of your kids?

So I oldest, it's just turned 26. Our youngest is 11.

Did you always want to have a big family or did you not know? Or just like, we're going to have a family that's as big as it is, or like, well, what was your motivation for not having only two or only three or whatever?

My lucky number was six always has been.

And I was always happy. So. So I've got this false fear, right? Like, I, I just don't feel like the guy should be the one who's determining or dictating how many children there are in the family. I think that it should be, it should be a conversation. But, mothers bear the burden of pregnancy and childbirth and the way that our society is structured in the main. Mum does the, the lion's share of the child rearing. And so my attitude was always that if Kylie wanted to have a child and then, at home, I would say no, like, that's just, I don't know, it just it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel appropriate to me to be to be dictating that to Kylie. But once we heard about number four, you were kind of done.

And I was the one that came to you and sort of begged for number five. And then together we agreed that maybe there's that was enough time and enough space for for one more. So. And we had we had an eight seater vehicle and we figured we might as well fill every seat.

Did you did any part of you. Was any part of you looking for a boy or were you like, well, we get what we get. We don't throw a fit or like or how do you manage that scene?

We talked about it a lot and we and it was very much we want to have a child. We're not we're not picking genders here. We really want to have a child.

And and we never found out. We always it was always a surprise every time and and every pregnancy was so different. We talk about the fact that this has to be a boy. This is just so different from the previous and so on. Very, very.

Surprised. Yeah. And it was a surprise. It's a girl. And I'm like, yes, yes. But but like I guess for some background on us got married really young. We have a religious background. And I think I was 22. You and 19. Yeah, yeah. And, I had a media career. I was a really successful radio now. So we traveled the country, and I ended up at one of the country's biggest radio stations. And I was really, really effective at work. And probably a lot of men can relate to this. This this is a gendered. Forgive me, but it just is. You got to, you bring home the bacon, you do a really great job, and you just sort of, you nail it, and then you get home and nothing makes sense.

Like I used to say this thing to call you all the time. Carly would be upset at something, and and I'd say, what's wrong? And Carly would say the stonewall and not give me anything. Or she'd say, you should know what's wrong. And I would say, well, I'm a husband, not a mind reader. And, like, I've made this commitment that we are married like we're married forever. This is it. This is us. There's no benefit. There's no benefit at all to me being in conflict with you. And so if you can, if you can just recognize and identify that I'm not a mind reader and I am probably a little bit slow, a little bit dumb when it comes to this sort of stuff. But if you could help me to know what's wrong, because you know what's wrong, and therefore because you think that you because you think you know what's wrong, you think I should know what's wrong as well.

But if you can tell me what's wrong, then I don't have to try to moderate. And then I get in trouble for mind reading incorrectly, which I. I'm a terrible mind reader. But also we get to work through this conflict. And so we were having a lot of conflict, especially in the early days, that was primarily around parenting. And, one day when Carly went and I was a client with a three year old, Carly asked me to put the three year old to sleep. She wouldn't go to sleep. I was tired, I was insisting that she go to sleep and it just escalated. I mean, it was brutal, is horrible. It just an awful experience, and I did.

I did all the things that you're not supposed to do. Like, I yelled and I screamed and I shouted, I threatened and I squeezed and I smacked. Oh, slapped somebody in America spanked. Sorry, I did all that stuff. And I threw her in her bedroom, and I locked her in there, and I held the door closed, and I had a child behind the door, and I shoved her out of the way as I pushed the door up. And I did all these things that I'm ashamed to talk about. I hate describing this story because I just did such an awful job of it. Okay. And eventually she fell asleep on the on the floor behind the door, and I realized what I'd done. I just knew that I'd done it wrong. And I remember thinking to myself.

It's the it's all my fault. She made me do it. If she just told, this wouldn't have happened. Yeah, any of it is not saying it. I knew that it was just a terrible lie. Of course, that was. That was 20 something years ago. Now it's 2002 today when somebody says, it's not my fault, she made me do it. We recognized that as an indication of a man child who is probably got to be abusive, right. Like that. Yeah, yeah. What a what a terrible thing to say. But back then we didn't have the language for that. And that's how I was thinking that I knew instantly that it was a very bad excuse. I knew it was a lie.

And, and a quote that my dad had shared with me a few times came into my mind in my anger and rage and frustration and inability to process properly. And I remember my dad saying to me more than once, the only time a father should lay his hands on his child is to bless them. And I just knew that I was not a blessing to my daughter.

No, no.

I walked into the backyard and, I had this this realization settling on me that I was a bad father. And I got home. Callie was surprised to say that I was a white because she knew that I wanted, sorry. When Callie got home, she was surprised that I was a white because she knew that I wanted to have a nap. And that's what was going on. And I told her everything I just said. Here's what happened. Since you left. And Callie, who is generous and kind and compassionate, helpful and thoughtful and caring and all those things, was none of those things in that moment, she just looked at me and she said, you're not the husband I hoped you'd be, and you're not the father I need you to be.

And, Like, you didn't make any threats. You didn't say, that's it. I'm not doing this anymore. There was none of that. It was just my expectations for you are higher, and you're not living up to the expectations that I have of you. Or the promises that you made to me. So we had a long conversation that Saturday afternoon, and within a couple of months, I'd quit my radio career and gone back to school. I was 27 years old. I had a wife and two kids and a mortgage and I was returning to full time study, and I spent the next five years as a full time student doing, like a, a vocational course and then going to university. And I graduated with first class honors, finished university with first class honors and a psychological science degree, at which point we'd gone from having the two kids to having four kids.

And you'd work two part time jobs.

Yeah, like I was working 2 or 3 part time jobs at a time and studying full time. And sleeping under the desk at university to get my uni worked out. It was just brutal what we went through and yet we look back on it is such an incredible period. And I realized that when you get a psychology degree, it's worthless. You can do nothing with it. It's completely overrated. Well, what's the point of having a psych degree? Yeah, you've got to go and do further study. And we discussed what a what a post, graduate education might look like. And we uprooted our family, moving site. I did a PhD, at another university, and, became an academic there for a few years, lecturing, researching, doing academic work that along the way, we had a fifth child while I was doing that. But along the way, we realized that I discovered some things that made families flourish and thrive.

Okay.

And I loved I had this radio career, this broadcast career where I knew how to communicate. I was winning awards at the university for being a great lecturer, but the the university didn't really prize or prioritize lecturing. I was all about research and I didn't love the research. So much. So I started business. I started writing books and giving talks. And for the last 15 years or thereabouts, I've traveled Australia and New Zealand giving talks and writing books. And I've got a TV show, on print, on, national television called Parental Guidance and Coffee. And I co-hosted a podcast. It's the most downloaded parenting podcast in the country. It's called the Happy Families Podcast. And our eldest daughter is now in her mid 20s, and she and her husband have a baby, also a girl, because we do girls in our family. So the grandparents of the two year old.

Yeah, we only do girls in our family. We've got two girls. And I want to ask you about happy families and how families thrive. But, Kylie, I have a question for you. Because this thing that you said to Justin in the backyard that came from, like, where did that come from? And you like, what was that? What was the origin story of that speech? Because it wasn't it was inconsistent with what he understood you to be or to say it was some other thing. But what do you make of it?

I don't I don't remember the story with clarity.

It's a turning point for me just in a way, with a friend and wife going wild.

Yeah. Which means, again, it's part of her, like, core way of being on the planet. Not this thing she had to muster up. So I'm interested to know what you know about that.

So I guess my, my upbringing was pretty heavy handed, and, and I promised myself that I would never be that person and that, that I would have beautiful, loving relationships with my children. And up until that point, in our relationship, we had had so much goodness, there was so much goodness. But once the children came along, there was there was definite tension and challenge as we were grappling, coming from two totally different backgrounds, and navigating a space where we in my mind, I thought we would come together beautifully, but recognize that we would just not aligned. And, neither of us had learned particularly good communication skills.

Kind of checked just on this. Kylie's parents an awful communicators. Okay, if I ever hear this. I'm so sorry, Natasha, but they are that they do not communicate well at all, that they live in. I would say a high level of conflict, but generally speaking, it's just a demand withdrawal cycle. Okay? The makes a demand, usually Kylie's mum. Then the other one we draw is usually Kylie's dad. And then there's silence for a couple of days and then they start talking again. But it's it's not a healthy way of communicating at all. And on the on the other side of the coin, my parents, my mum just says whatever she wants, no filter, just lets it all out. Kaboom. And my dad, my dad takes it and takes it, takes it takes, takes. And then finally just says, that's it, I've had enough. And he goes and plays golf and that's gone. And he just isn't for a while.

So you both have a little bit of a, you have some clarity about what you don't want or what you didn't want to do, or b as parents. And then, and then here comes this moment for you, Justin, where you act out, probably in a way that was surprising for you.

Know, this has been building this has been going. Yeah, I can tell you 4 or 5 different stories where I really overstepped. I for our children. But on this particular day, this was this was not the climax. I wish it was the last time. I mean, there were times subsequent to it because I'd gotten myself into a habit pattern. And subsequent to that, I remember another time I lost the plot. We were in New Zealand, one of the kids was misbehaving in an airport, and I lashed out and physically hit my our child in public and causes furious about it. And again, really, really just said, this is a line in the Sand Canyon moment. I don't know if you remember that one. And a bit, but I digress. So we came from some very, very ineffective communicators and we didn't have great models of communication.

Yeah. And so I think that when Justin shared just the extent of that day and the events of that day, for me it was just. I'd come from that background.

Yeah.

And I didn't want that for my children and not wanting to carry away because I love this man. But my number one priority is for the safety of my children. And so I think that, for me, it was recognizing that if it came down to it, I would have to choose them, I would have to choose them.

And that's what relationship with Arnie. There's been a handful of blips and that really, really minor things. Generally we haven't. We've just not had any challenges. We've we've I shouldn't say that we've had a lot of challenges, but we've we've worked really carefully and lovingly and and compassionately side by side to create a really strong marriage. Our marriage has always been just the the absolute priority is a different relationship. And when something is really precious, you treat it differently. And so we've always treated our marriage as something that is absolutely sacrosanct, completely sacred. We really treat it carefully. But the parenting thing was with the kids, it was just it was different. And so we had to learn that, didn't I? It was really, really tricky.

Yeah. That's why it's so, I there's a thing about your podcast that makes me go, is that the target? And it's this idea of happy families, like, is do you think happy is the target? And if it is like, what's the secret?

During his first major to kids. So, I mean, a little I developed the happy family's brand right at the very, very, very beginning of my psychology studies. In fact, I think I started it beforehand. I, I just knew I was reading a whole lot about parenting because I knew that I was failing as a parent, and I knew I wanted to go into psychology, but I was doing this vocational course first because I couldn't get into university, and I was already discovering, like my my journey of discovery. And then you don't do research, you do me search. Right? So my, my researching was, If I'm going to be a good dad, I'm going to be a good dad. And I wanted to instantly and I started to develop this concept of happy families before I'd even realized that I could make a career of it. I don't know why, I just had this thing and and off I went.

And so over the years, I've asked myself, is that really the goal? Is that what we're really going for? And I've sort of flip flopped quite a lot on it. And the this the cynic or the skeptical? The psychology person in me thinks, yeah, I don't know. I mean, is happiness really the end goal? Because happiness is fleeting, it ebbs and flows and we're supposed to be well-rounded and whole. And if you're always happy, what are you hiding? What I'm asking. There's all that going on for me. But at the same time, a couple of weeks ago, we had two of our kids celebrate their birthday. Colleagues mention we've got two kids celebrating their birthday three years apart. But on the same day, and as we sat around the dining table, we had 11 of us.

There was Kylie and I and our six children. That brings us to eight. Our daughter's husband and her daughter, our granddaughter. So that takes us to ten and our next daughter. Our second one is dating someone pretty seriously. This relationship's developing quite nicely. And and so her boyfriend was along as well. So there's 11 of us around the table, and we were just having this conversation about what we're grateful for, what we're grateful for about each other, what we're grateful for about these girls, what we're grateful for in our lives.

And the the meal ended and the conversation continued, and then dessert ended and the conversation continued. And we probably there are 11 people. Well, actually, our 11 year old disengaged and wandered off. But outside of work, there were 11 people sitting around this dining table, fully engaged, engrossed, laughing, sharing stories, singing songs, the writing in one another's company. And that is, it's not actually, it wasn't originally my vision. My mum once told me that her dream of heaven, her vision of heaven, is all the kids sitting at the dining table enjoying one another's company.

Wow.

And and my family is not a particularly healthy, quote unquote happy family. We actually really enjoyed one another's company a lot. And quietly, I, I guess we've not only adopted that, we've internalized that goal. And as we sat there around the table a couple of weeks ago on a we we drank it in, we just soaked it up. And I thought to myself, this is it. Like, this is heaven. This is, this is this is the goal. And so I'm actually really bullish on the idea that families can be happy and that when you get your family to the right place, that's how it feels. And if relationships are at the heart of wellbeing, if you look at all the data on what makes a life well-lived, it all comes back to other people.

The quality of our relationships with other people and matter. Most of the ones that are applied right, our our, our biological offspring. So. So for me, I, I actually feel really strongly that happy families, is aspirational. And in spite of the cynical and skeptical ways that we could look at it, it it's what everyone wants. You talk to any parent on any given day and they just want their family to be happy.

But I think also when you say that the goal is having families, but there's this idea that you won't have hardship, that you won't have challenges, that you won't have trial, but that's not true. Like life is hard. Every day we decide which hard we want. We get to make that is. But life is hard. And it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be hard. We're supposed to push against things. We're supposed to be challenged by them because that's how we grow it. That's how we learn. That's how we develop and become better human beings. But the idea of having happiness is being able to recognize the joy in those moments, because we don't have ease all the time.

And if we did, we actually wouldn't be happy. It's not in it's in the markets, in the mess that if we are aligned and have the right outlook, we find glimmers, glimmers of joy. And that, for just in and I has been our greatest joy. You know, I remember when the kids were younger and there was just constant bickering and fighting and challenge, and I would be like pulling my hair out, going, what are we doing? We're getting this so wrong. And then going after, you know, an hour of convincing them that going to the beach was going to be fun. We'd get them all in the car and we'd head down to the beach and that all be cranky and, you know, didn't want to be there. And we'd get onto the sand and there would just be this moment where everybody was just glad to be there.

Yeah. And I would go, this is it. This is why I do what I do. This moment. Yeah, this moment is what I'm striving for more. I want more of this in my life.

So how did how how did you create it? How did you cultivated it? How did what what did you what choices did you make in real time that helped you get around that table or get to the beach and have everybody go, yep, this is this is it.

Goes on for a story.

Yeah. We got time.

Yeah. Right. So over the years and plays like this is a process. This is not something that we were born with. This is not something that we understood from our families. And it's certainly not something that we were getting right at the start. These are things that we've had to learn along the way.

Which I'll caveat real quick and say to anybody listening, this means that you can learn it. If it's a thing that you can learn, than you. It is a learnable thing. That doesn't mean you have to. And everything we've learned in our whole lives, we've been bad at at the beginning, you know, that includes walking and talking. So, you know, those of us who are bad at whatever you're about to say. All right. This is maybe something we can learn.

Yeah. Playing guitar, piano, playing a guitar or a piano or, learning a language does. It doesn't matter if you make a million mistakes before you get good at it. So, our eldest daughter gets her driver's license. Carly's taking her to the motor registry so that she can complete the test. And before they left, this is on a school day, and our daughter is missing out on first period at school, first class at school, so that she can get her driver's permit. And then we can. Carly's going to take her to school. And I said to Carly on the way as they left, I said, knowing our daughter, knowing Shanell, she's going to want to go her drive. She's never driven before, she doesn't know how to drive. We've got a manual transmission, a stick shift in the car. She doesn't know how to drive it.

She she's never touched a clutch before so when she asks just let her know. That'll teach you to drive tonight, okay? It'll be fine. Dad will teach you tonight. We've got to get you to school. You're going to be late, Carly. Yep. No worries. Let's do that. And then Chanel gets her learner permit. And on the way to school, she says, mom, do you think that I could just have a little drive? And Carly says, no.

I said, that's going to take you tonight.

And Chanel says, just a minute. Just please, just one minute. Because, you know, 16 year old girls can be like she fled as a child, as a colleague, Carly says.

Okay, let's do.

It. Fine, fine, fine. And so they they stop at a church car park just down the street, and Carly puts her in the driver's seat and they they bunny hop around the car park for five, turn on her because she's got no idea how to release a clutch and accelerate and that kind of thing. Long story short, I get a phone call about ten minutes into this experience from Kylie who says, hey honey, I just wanted to give you a quick call. Do you think that you could come down to the church at the end of the street? And, I want to show you something, and I've said, okay, this is odd. I didn't ask any questions. I said, in my mind. Strange request. Carly's not giving anything away, but she wants to show me something. I'm on my way.

So I get in the car and I'm driving. I'm thinking one of two things has happened. Either our daughter is gifted and knows how to drive the car, or she's crashed right. And, as I pull up, I can see the airbags have gone off. I can see the front end of the car is completely destroyed. The car is a total loss. It's a complete write off. And I've got a I've got a moment now to think about how I'm going to respond, because Kylie's standing there with a hands on her hips and our daughter is standing there with her hands.

She gone.

She oh, she disappeared. She'd run away. And I'm thinking, okay, I've now got to choose how to respond. And this is, this is, I guess, the the take home message from this story. We always get to choose how we respond.

Yep.

In marriage and family life, we always get to choose how we respond. The circumstances don't dictate our response, our choices dictate our response. And I thought to myself as I was getting out of the car, I can lose it. I can blow up. I can tell Kylie that she's done the wrong thing. She didn't listen to me. She should have, could have, would have, but didn't. And I can get mad at our daughter because she knew better and I told her not to hassle mom. And I could say all this stuff, but none of that matters right now. Because I've got a daughter in distress. A wife is a little bit upset. We had the baby in the backseat of the vehicle when the car crashed into the church building. And, and I just thought, what matters most right now is that my family feels safe.

Okay.

So I took a really big, deep breath, and I gave Kylie a hug and she explained what had happened. And then she also explained that she no one ran away and it was hiding around the corner. So I called out to Chanel and as Chanel walked towards me with her face covered by her hands, I put my arms out to her and I drew her into me, and. And I held her. And I said, Chanel, people matter. Things don't. And she just stopped. And I said, so here's the thing. You've had a crash, and it's really scary for you right now, but you're going to be able to learn to drive and you're going to enjoy driving. And one day this will just be something that we'll talk about around the dining table about.

Do you remember that day when Chanel wrote the car off on her first ever drive? And and that day I, organized with the insurance company to tow the vehicle away and they assessed it and said that it was a total loss. And I went and bought another vehicle that day, even though I was a uni. Sure. I didn't have any money and I couldn't afford it. And that night I put Chanel in the car and I said, we're going to do this again. And this time we're going to do it a little differently than how you did it this morning. And I spent the next little while teaching how to drive a manual vehicle.

And she became competent and capable because of a willingness to say, people matter. Things don't. Now, over the years, something that I've been really effective. A psychologist naturally knows how to love people. Clearly things, needs and meets them. But I've had to learn this stuff. And and there's one other line that I've learned, and that is that when when our children do things that are upsetting, or even if I've been calling, I haven't really had this.

We've we've really we've we've managed our relationship really well. But every now and again the kids will upset me. And in fact, it happened just recently with one of our kids, was mad. And she hit the wall in anger and she put a hole in the wall and and what I wanted to do when she did that was, I want her to drop my shoulder, charge at her and my shoulder into her midsection, and just keep on driving until she put a hole in the wall with her body as I pushed it through it. But I'm not a violent person, and I don't want to do that. And I'm also a parenting expert with a global reputation. And so it's important that I do things, even though sometimes I feel. And so what I did instead was I paused, and she looked at me with horror in her eyes and ran to her bedroom.

And I went into the bedroom and I fell on the bed, and I said, you feel awful right now. I get it, and we don't even have to talk about it now, although we will talk about it, because what happened is not okay. But I want you to know this. I want you to know that my love for you is way bigger than that hole in the wall. So I like these are just lines, but they want their lines that I've had to learn them. We've had to practice.

Yeah.

Going through the afflictions and challenges and trials and hardships that family life throws our way. Yeah, they're not my normal natural reactions. Yeah. But over time, what I've discovered is nothing matters more than my family. And if I can communicate that to them, if I can help them to feel strong and safe, even at times where they're weak and at risk of my temper hurting them, if I can help them to feel strong and safe in those moments, we can solve any problem together and our family will be stronger because of it. Yeah. So that's that's that's my take. Kylie might have something additional to add or a different perspective, but for me, that that would be how I would answer your question.

Yeah. I guess from my perspective, going back to that first story, that moment in time for Justin, that was a huge turning point for him. It was the recognition that if we were going to make this work and if we were going to have, you know, a beautiful, happy family, that it required intention on both of our hearts to come together and be one in our decision making process. And whatever that looks like. And so, we've, we've created some really, I guess, important structures for us as a couple and as a family to help us be on the same page regularly and keep us keep each other accountable as we go through throughout the jungle.

They are, because this is like a game changer.

I want to know what they are.

So, like we acknowledge we didn't have great role models growing up.

And we love our parents, we love them, and we did the best that they could. So we're not here to belittle them or denigrate them or slam them.

Yeah, yeah, I say, I always say 100% of my clients have been traumatized by their parents. It's that's just comes with the territory. So, we'll caveat that their parents did the best they could and still traumatize you in some way, but okay, you didn't have the best example. So in response, you,

And so growing up, my family tried hard to kind of build, I guess some structure into our relationships to help us become better. And we called it family council. So once a week on a Sunday get together and we would sit down and we would air our Grievances.

Council.

Together. The challenge was because there was a lack of effective communication. There was just a lot of blame, excuse and denial. And nobody took accountability for what part they played in. It's no the impact that their actions had on others.

So it was a weekly fortnight.

And it really was. And so there was there was a lot of tension. I'm, I'm one of three girls. So lots of hormones in the house already.

Drax.

Yep, yep. And, and then it just it didn't work. Well. So when Justin and I got married, we decided we would we wanted to continue that because we recognized the value in being able to come together and talk about things. But that was actually where our first fight started. And after a few weeks, Justin kind of looked at me and he said, what is going on? Like, you are not this person any all the time, but as soon as we sit down to have this conversation, no matter what I say to you, you feel attacked and you're on the defensive.

So you go into muscle memory like you just did this. Yeah.

And so we thankfully, thankfully, we worked out that this wasn't working for us and we had to come up with a different solution if we wanted to be able to move forward. And so over the years, we've created a really, really simple system that has worked so beautifully for us and involves, we can do it just as individuals, as a couple, or include the children in. It's three simple questions. And so we ask each other what's going well right now? What are we really happy about in our family? Right. You know, personal life.

Yeah.

And once we talk through all of that and we exhaust the list, then we kind of say, okay, what's not going well, what is something, you know, what are the things that we're kind of looking at? And it's just it's not working. We're a bit rusty here or we'd like to improve, in an area. And so we exhaust that list. Previously it was kind of, what are you not doing? What am I not doing? You know, it was kind of this, this person hack the other person trying to kind of, you know, help them to understand that their actions was upsetting us, whereas.

So so I'd say, you know what? I'm just on flogging myself. I'm working so many hours on traveling. I'm exhausted. I want to come home. I, I just wanted it to be ready and don't know what you're doing all day. That makes it so hard for you to not be able to have dinner on the table. But the last thing I want to do when I walk in the house is have to cook dinner. And Claudy would say, if you only knew what I was doing and it just was.

So yeah.

It was so effective. So we had to change the way that we communicated about it. And so what we started to learn was it's much more effective to say evenings haven't been so great. This week. And you're like, well, why not? Oh, I'm getting home tired and I'm cranky and I've got expectations, and you're flustered because your whole day's going a little bonkers and you're not getting done what you want to get done. And so we would actually problem solve and say, well, if that's the biggest challenge we've had this week, what do we need to do as a couple to support one another? Better to make evenings work. So the third thing would be what?

What's not going well?

What? What's going well? What's not going well?

And then, what what do we want to focus on this week. How do we want to fruit.

Yeah, sure. Very. It's a how can we support each other to improve. And we'd only ever pick 1 or 2 things to improve. How can we support to improve that one thing. So it's never easy to do this. It's always this area is an area of challenge. How can we work together on this to make this easier?

And and the real magic of that process has actually been, as we've included the kids. Because the kids. Yeah. I says recognizing and knowing that they, number one, have a voice and they are a part of this process. But more times than not, they are the ones who recognize where the challenges and the part that they're actually playing in, and they're able to take accountability for it because they're not being attacked for it. We're not saying, you know, did you recognize, you know, this, this and this, and you are part of that. They will say, you know, time's really not working well. And we'll be like when we kind of, you know, extend that and ask them, get curious about what you think that was. You know, I'm on my computer a lot and I'm not focused.

And, you know, dads still working really late. And I've noticed that, you know, you're really flustered at the end of the day. And so it's not getting ready, like, so it's just this collaborative acknowledgment that there are so many pieces to the puzzle. And if we each are intentional about, the part that we play in it, that we can actually come together, collaborate and make things better.

And then we've done another thing. We haven't actually done it lightly. It's been a little bit tricky logistically, but every quarter we used to, and we're hoping to start it again as we move into the new year once every 12 weeks, once every two months, every quarter. How would you want to say it, Colin? I'll go away for 1 to 2 nights. Okay? We don't getting all that. Why? Because we don't want to waste our time traveling. We just go somewhere nice within an hour of home and 1 or 2 nights where we get to reconnect and spend time together, have some nice meals, do some nice activities. But mostly we sit down with an agenda. The agenda is what's working, what's not, and what do we need to focus on for the next 12 weeks to get our family where it needs to be? And again, it's a meeting.

It's just a longer horizon.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we kind of we really go deep.

We talk about all the kids, we talk about the kids activities. We talk about our schedules and our calendars, and we do it like, I want to learn a new musical instrument, but I want to do more surfing, or Kylie wants to spend more time with some friends, or wants to go away on a on a retreat for three or 4 or 5 days. And so we we talk about that. We plan our holidays. She it's been a while since we had a holiday. What do we need to book? When should we book it. And so it becomes this big conversation where we've got all this stuff that's going on, right. We've got a handful of holes. If there was just a couple of things that we're going to fix up, what would they be? Well, where's our focus going to be for the next 12 weeks?

We align our calendars. We talk about finances, we break down each of the kids. I mean, there's six of them. That's that's yeah.

It's a lot of work.

That's enough talk for a long time.

We talk about them individually and where we're falling short and supporting them at that particular stage of life, what they need from us more. And and, you know, what are the things that we can do to just help them thrive.

And the genesis of this was I run a business. And every every quarter I sit down with my team and say, how do we track Phil, ask for his goals, what are the milestones that we're missing by the next quarter? And let's look further ahead to the quarter after that. And I just I remember one day thinking to myself, my family is way more important than my business. And yet I've never done anything like this for my family. What's going on here?

Well, I'm struck by the same strategic care to this family unit as I do to this business unit. Right.

And that was actually probably one of the most revolutionary changes that we made in our license. You know, when you when you have, when you're married to your best friend, you kind of just take for granted that you're going to be best friends forever. And your life takes so much of our time, energy and space, and there's often very little left for each other. And so it came at a time where we had really just started to recognize that there was some holes in our life, and because we just hadn't been feeding each other's souls, in intentional ways. And so that time was it was literally life changing.

And we got a whole bunch to do it as well. Now, not not with us. Like they go away and they do their own.

Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. No, I love that.

They're saying what we're doing. They're just like this. This, this matters. And every one of them has come to me and said, genius can't thank you enough. Like, this is this is part of my routine. It's a quality connection with my husband or wife. It's an opportunity to talk about the things that matter most to us. We get recalibrated. It's time out so that when we're back in, we know where we're going on what we're doing. Like it's just such, such great value.

And in the early days when we started doing this, the kids actually really struggled with us being gone. This was very new to them having mum and dad gone at the same time. And so we sat down with them and we talked to them just about how important it was for us as a couple to connect and to be really, you know, grounded in each other so that when we came back, we could be the best version of ourselves for them. And so now they actually celebrate that time. That'd be like, it's it looks like it's time for you. Yes. Yeah.

See, later.

They also like having the house to themselves. So I'm sure.

Yeah. Well, listen, I've loved talking to you guys. It is so fun to hear about how you've put it together. I cannot imagine having six girls. I've got two. But, I knew I was not cut out to be a boy, dad. So, I think, you know, I got hooked up in the same way that you guys did. And, but anyway, it's been really fun just to hear about how you're making it work and how you're pursuing happiness. I love this idea that, things, things don't matter. People matter. I think that's what you said. That's the how do you quote it? How did you say people, it's time people matter. Things don't. The other thing I was thinking about.

And you, you said this accidentally, but then you then you kind of disproved yourself earlier. You said, Justin, that there's no benefit to being in conflict with one another. And I actually think that's you. It's not right. Like there is a benefit. The benefit is you have access to repair. Yeah. You have access to like reconnecting after disharmony, which is actually where trust and resilience gets built. So I think that, I appreciate the sentiment. And yet you have all these stories of where the benefit of your conflict was, how you became closer as a result. So, I'm pro that on your behalf and on your girls behalf and on your grandkids behalf, like granddaughter. That's amazing. So are you done having children?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

I yeah.

Yeah. That that's done.

Yeah. Right. Well, Well very cool. Thank you so much for your time. If people want to learn more about what you guys are up to, you tell me how to help them do that.

Podcast. Probably the best. The happy Families podcast if you search wherever you get your pods. If you're interested in parenting stuff, my books, wherever you look for books, just search my name. There's one called The Parenting Revolution that I think would probably be the most useful. And, if I if there was one book that I've written that it could go on the bedside table of every single parent around the world, but it would be that one. I think it's just the principles that are in there are so important, not just for parenting, but for families, for couples. And yeah, really make a difference.

Cool. I'll check it out and I'll point people in your direction. And thank you again so much for talking to me. And, yeah, I wish you the best down. And it's summertime, right.

Coming to summer.

Yeah, yeah. We're just getting ready for a winter or fall. I can see the trees behind me. They're changing, but. So we're on the opposite. And if you bump into my daughter, say hi.

We will, we will, we'll say goodbye.

There you go.