Session 1 | A Peek in the Therapeutic Process

You had a day. Do you want to tell me about your day?

These days have been hard, and I think just in talking about what we're going to talk about with you. Just puts in our vision those things that we have real frailty. And, you know, what we help with and what we feel overwhelmed with, what we feel disappointed in. Yeah. And also this, you know, like, is it reasonable to expect, after 16 years of a very full marriage to like, have the giddy love and lust that we had for each other 16 years ago?

Yeah, it's a good question.

Yeah. So today we kind of like as we woke up, you know, I brought up like, what are we going to talk about with Zach today. And so we kind of just had a kind of really honest kind of hard conversation, but a really honest conversation. Yeah. You're probably like, oh, I wish you would have waited and gotten it on the.

No, no, no, no. In fact, I want you to slow down a little bit.

So we kind of started out with a discussion and then, and then, and then we hosted some friends over for brunch. Yeah. And then they just left a little bit ago. So it's been kind of full to have that big conversation and then get ready and then brunch with new friends and have a great time with them. And then kind of shift gears right and right into that. So it's been a yeah, but it.

Well, let's start with a couple of basics in general. Just because we're doing a weird thing, we're trying to, be of value to you, which is definitely my goal and also kind of model and show what work looks like for people who might be listening. And so typically in therapy, there's a there's an assumption of confidentiality, which we don't really get here. We're going to we're going to tell the story to 7 billion people, you know, in the world at any time, if you are, if I ask you a question that you feel like you do not want to answer, you can pass to say, nah, we don't want to. We don't want to do that one. It's just a, it's a, it's a principle that I hold.

It's called the pass rule. I actually think it's really helpful when people pass because it lets me know where their boundaries are. And it says, hey, this is not a thing that we want to do. And I'm inclined just to go. Thanks for letting me know. So there's no shame in passing. There's no reason to be embarrassed. At all.

Any any of the people you interview cry during these sessions? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you guys are a little unique in that this is the first time that we're going to try and do something that simulates reality in the sense that, like, we're trying we're going to have a therapeutic series of conversations. A lot of times I'm just interviewing people kind of like, hey, how do you make it work and what's going on? And there's some vulnerability there. I mean, for sure, because we're talking about real things and real things, you know, matter. We have, I don't know, something like four, three, four hours scheduled together. And I guess I'll start with this question, which is if, if, if that goes well for you, if you're like, man, that was a really good use of our time.

I'm really happy with, with that conversation. And when we got out of it, like what happens for you over the next series of conversation? What does change look like in a way that's meaningful? We're not looking for a miracle, but but if you got one, if there was a, there was a dream outcome of talking with me for a little while in this context, what would it be?

Well, I think for me it's it's the big question. It would be the answer to this question is, you know, is it possible to have a great romantic, sexy, engaged like, love filled, desiring marriage after 16 years? Like that's what I want. I want a marriage that is juicy and where we both have deep desire for each other and we just want to go travel the world together and spend lots of time together and, and feel and, you know, feel aligned. And, of course, there will be differences and tensions and, you know, because we we had that for like the first five years of our relationship. And so for me, that's what I'd want is to not that it would be that the way it was in the first five years, but a kind of a, you know, to have that really feeling of being deeply connected and with mutual desire and mutual, respect and mutual, deep, love, respect and desire for each other. Okay.

So if we get it right, if we have a successful series of conversations, you get an answer to that question.

And you don't.

Get maybe you don't get that thing, but you get at least some clarity about whether or not that thing is possible for you.

Yeah, yeah. And a roadmap towards that end.

Yeah. Okay. That's pretty cool.

Andrew. We're rolling for me, that seems kind of like farther down the line. Like that would be a a successful like journey through therapy through marriage therapy together like that. Like towards that goal. Like I have that goal too. We don't have different goals in that way. Like I was there 16 years ago and it was glorious. But I also know that to hold that up as the goal will be disappointing, will be disappointing ultimately, because it's 16 years later and the pressure is on us now are very different than when we first met, and our knowledge of each other is greater and it's like love is hard and Texas isn't, you know, friction, lust

isn't sustained, just relationship. Connect a relationship is is hard. And so I think what I think, what I would like, what would be a successful for me is to feel like. I can be understood what my piece is and that IRA can be understood for what his pieces. So that we could kind of see each other. We're not in opposite camps. We are doing this together. But he has very strong feelings and I have very strong feelings and I, I can get really defensive, like, feel like it's on me, because I'm menopausal, because I recently found out I'm neurodivergent and because I'm a 50 year old woman with a ten year old boy with ADHD and a 13 year old daughter with autism and a four like.

So it's almost like being being seen by a third party who can say, like to me like, yeah, that would be hard. You're not you're not deficient because you're having a hard time. And of course, it's not going to be like it was 16 years ago.

Yeah.

So to kind of, I guess legitimize how I feel.

Yeah.

And also legitimized how he like the morning that he's going through and the disappointment in the marriage right now, my feeling overwhelmed and somehow like I'm the one who's, who's responsible for it not being so sparkly and delightful right now. Yeah. So, so I think just being heard and I think a container is really would be great because we can get into like a loop where, and it's a familiar loop like this is something that we've gone to counseling before. And yeah.

So yeah I want to hear about it at least part of what you're saying is easy for me anyway is what you're doing is hard. I mean what I think marriage is hard and raising children is hard. And strip out how old you are, how old they are, how old, you know, whether or not neurodivergent is part of it, whether or not 16 years is part of it, or five years of. I mean, strip it out. I mean, this is it, though. This is a challenging thing that is not, it's I mean, we don't we don't get any training and how to do this. I have this really incredible advantage that I think, I think the podcast serves a need in which is I talked to tons and tons and tons of couples like I.

My in-sample is very big, and most people's in-sample is not. They know their parents marriage. They know maybe their their their neighbors marriage. They know their, you know whatever. And they have an example of about three, four, maybe five. And, and maybe what they see on TV, you know, or but they were like, I don't know, but it's not it doesn't really reflect that. This is a broad and deep, challenging thing to do. And the couples that, that thrive, the couples that make it, they seize it, they seize it, and they go, all right, we're going to do this hard thing in a in a unique way. And so I actually think seeking out couples therapy is unique. Most people don't do that.

Most people don't ask for help. So if you're doing it at all previously to an hour now ish you're you got to you got a little bit of an advantage over, over some people. But yeah, what you're doing is hard. That's an easy part. Creating understanding, creating a pathway, creating vision that's a little harder. Because we have to understand kind of what's in the way of that. And maybe that's my next question. When you think about your vision and what the what what a home run looks like or what the miracle looks like, what can you tell me about what's in the way? What can you tell me about what? What's between here and there.

So I have a question for you with your huge, you know, access and sample to so many different marriages, does it exist? A marriage that's 16 years old that has spark and yeah.

100% it does. But not because it not because of magic, not because of like it just stayed that way. It exists because people adapt and they appreciate that, like the thing that they had 16 years ago. In my case, it's almost 30 years ago. For some it isn't that it's a different context now. And so you have to adapt to the context. And I think if I, if I go real academic about it, I think you got a you Got a man is adaptation adaptation about every three years. There's a whole theory around social anthropology that long term committed relationships have about a three year lifespan. So for me, at almost 30, I'm in I'm like around cycle ten. Wow. At 16, you guys are like just through cycle five.

And if you haven't done those cycles with some intentionality, where like because, you know, there's some natural rhythm, you know, we meet and about three years later we get married and about three years later we have a kid, and about three years later we have another kid. And about 18 years later, we empty nest, you know, like there's some natural built in stuff. And the, the, the theory itself goes back to like Origin of man theory, survival of the fittest kind of stuff, but. But anthropologically yeah there's about a three year cycle that you have to steward. And if you haven't done that with some intentionality then things atrophy. They build up and they like, you know, you kind of move away from you sort of accidentally move away from your vision.

And so I think, you know, the thing, what do they say? The kind of the best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago. But the second best time to plant a tree is now. And that's that's kind of where you're at, which is to go, hey, if we're going to get this thing that we want, it's time to plant a tree and it's time to nurture that tree and bring it up, and you're not going to swing. You're not gonna hang a tire from that tree and swing anytime soon. But you can certainly begin to envision it. And the cool thing is, there is, of course, some research that says this is what healthy marriages look like. But people get to make it up. You get to make it up. And the way you make it up as you go, what do we want? What's in the way. And how do we work on what's in the way so that we can get what we want. And so that's where I'm at now as I'm asking you this question of like what's in the way.

I love that simplicity and practicality of it.

It's really it's really all it is. I mean, like because people talk about what's a healthy marriage. And I go, well, no, what's a healthy marriage for you? Right. You know, because culturally, I mean, you guys know, you live in a different part of the world and marriage is culturally or just different than they are in India or China or Iceland and, you know, and so it's not like there's a global definition. There's something that we're in pursuit of, and I'll call it intimacy. And then there's things that get in the way of that. And those things are sometimes carried from like 50 years of them in, in, in sort of infused trauma or just experience. Sometimes they're incidental because last year I got a cancer diagnosis, or last year or two, ten years ago, we adopted a kid who ended up being neurodivergent, like some of the some of those things are circumstantial.

But they're still in the way. And so again, when you guys think about the thing that you want. I'm interested to know what's in the way. Is it ignorance because ignorance is, is is cured by education. Right. Isn't it.

And yeah. Yeah I mean I, you know if I could speak for me I'm just. In a constant state of over home, you know, and I think. Motherhood like it's not something I'm going to get rid of. Like I'm a mother and I'm glad that I'm a mother. But, man, it's kicking my ass big time.

Tell me about your kids there. How old and who are they? And what's the story about.

Having our daughter just turned 13 on Thursday?

Okay. Just became parents of teenagers, right? And the teenager.

She's looked like a teenager for a couple of years now.

And Ray, her name is Ray.

Right? Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And that was adopted.

She was adopted at birth. Okay. And Sean is our ten year old, and he was also adopted at birth. And they're actually birth siblings. Oh, sweet. So we we, had an open adoption with their birth parents, and then they got pregnant again. So we when they got pregnant again, we adopted Sean. They went on to have many other children who were adopted. And then they have one of their own. So, so our kids are adoptive siblings and also birth siblings. They, we, I guess with Sean, we could have pretty much predicted that he would he would be diagnosed with ADHD because he is like a born firecracker, just like super lively, livewire, kind of difficult, brilliant. All all the thing was like, very poor executive function, the super charismatic, and wry.

Her diagnosis was much more of a surprise. We moved here about three and a half years ago, and about four months into it we got called into the school and they were like, we think there's something going on, like social anxiety or dot, dot, dot and we're like, or what? Maybe autism. We're like, what? What? Very surprising. Although now in retrospect, we can see, she always kind of, you know, went to the beat of her own drummer, but was pretty easy kid. So that, like the the journey of our kids kind of like being in a foreign country. And it seemed like that was somehow a trigger for them to become even more, more quirky. Was has been really hard. For me, I think for you too. But maybe me especially.

I think. I mean, it's definitely it's something I continually have to accept and I, you know, like, I think not knowing our kids were, you know, neurodivergent are, you know, they definitely have these disabilities. You know, they, they refuse to learn how to ride a bike. You know, I think my favorite place on the world is on the beach, and they hate the beach.

Because of sensory. Like, there's a they're not doing it to be difficult.

Yeah. You know, so I always had this, you know I love sailing. They hate sailing I love surfing. They have no interest whatsoever, you know. So a lot of how I envisioned how I'd be a dad of like taking my kids camping, teaching them things, you know, there's a very narrow range of things that they're interested in. And there's things that they are interested in. They're obsessed with.

Like somebody who's culture and manga and anime like the.

Yeah. So, you know, we don't ride bikes, we don't go to the beach, we go camping. You know, we don't. But we talk a lot about manga. You know, we take deep dives into manga, which is very fun, you know. But still there's part of me that has to exercise.

At a big cost for you.

Except that all these things that I want to give them. Right. Like, I grew up in a family, you know, that didn't have much money and, you know, so like, didn't have access to a lot of things. So, like, we have access like the school has, like, if you want, you can go horseback riding, you can have a personal surfing coach, you can learn robotics, you can, you know, learn all of the music. A personal cello teacher, all these things that I would have, like, killed for. And they're not interested in any of it. Right. It's like, you know, so so for me, there's like this sense of what I wanted my to do as a dad, how and then kind of the reality of what, what their interests are, you know, and then how to not shame them into that, you know, how to not have just disrupt that.

They are who they are. They're doing their best and to love them for who they are and dive into, you know, and to this obsession with manga that's, you know, are this.

Yeah.

And so yeah. So but I'm definitely processing it's a very, it's a, it's a challenge, you know, that I'm, I have to mourn, and then come and show up for them and really, you know, dive into the time that we have together.

So I, I think if I can. But your sense is grief and disappointment. And my sense is there's grief and disappointment, but also because I had I was always an outsider and had a lot of trauma around moving and also other stuff. We moved every 2 or 3 years and I would like coming to a new school and not sit in and feel rejected and, you know, not have a place to kind of sit down, set myself seeing that happen to my kids was just fucking, real. And yeah, triggered my shit.

Yeah.

And since then, discovering that I. Oh, I'm also autistic, you know, never having known that my sense of difference wasn't all just trauma or just, like, being artsy, but actually being neurodivergent myself. Yeah. So my, the way that I've parented since then is to research as much as I can since.

Your own diagnosis, you.

Know, since my kids diagnosis since. Right. Got it. This is to really underscore like, try to understand like I'm a researcher. I'm a I'm a writer. So like I research and research, and try to get a handle on my own feelings of overwhelm by like, intellectually and psychologically understanding it so that I can better a parent. But like, I can't parent, I can't mother. They're neurodivergent so way and I can't.

And I think part of what, you know, Andrea's neurodivergent herself is that she's hyper empathetic. Yeah. She feels what other people feel really deeply like.

So. So that if we're watching a TV show and somebody like, like, trips and falls, like, I feel it in my body, I've got whatever that thing is, I. There's a term for it, but, like, I am so sensitive to other people's shit. I walk in.

A room.

And I, I mean, my dad was an alcoholic, so I know that's also like a children of alcoholics.

Yeah.

But I think part of was, you know, what we deal with there is that, like, for instance, Andrea is continually putting herself and our kids. She was like, if I were in that circumstance right now, this is how I would feel. And I kind of this, you know, so like ry, who's very, very introverted, you know, in a social setting, we'll go out on our own and sit down and read somewhere. And Andrea, you know, you know, has it, you know, put yourself in that situation and Andrea would feel really ostracized and not welcome and feel super low and and anxious about it. But reality is, ry might be fine with sitting somewhere and reading a book while there's a party going on, you know, and so but I.

Think she internalizes a lot of that. Like now that she's happier at this school, we see that she's coming out of her shell. Yeah, she's still highly, introverted, but much more open than she was a kairos. I think, you know, I. I have a name for what I'm in right now which is like the mother machine. The mother machine just grinds on and on like the mother grinds on and on and it's like.

In the mother machine makes it hard to play the wife role. The mother machine gets in the way of the marriage.

Yeah, for sure. And the wife that that he thought he married. So yeah. But I it's like I'm having a hard time taking care of myself.

Yeah.

So it's a struggle.

Yeah. Okay, I hear that sounds like overwhelm is the theme. The mother machine is the is the, is the challenge. And IRA. What? And it doesn't sound like you would use overwhelm as your word. Is it grief? That's in the way.

In with in parenting or in the marriage or.

I think in the marriage. Right. Like if you're if we get the thing that we want, you know, this renewed, what do you call it? Sexy, vibrant relationship. The mother machine is making that harder. The overwhelm is making that harder, especially for Andrea. What? Making it what makes it hard for you? Is it is it this conversation we're having about grief, or is it something else?

Well, I think the two things that I really desire. You know, is, I think is for Andrew to carve out part of her time and energy into taking care of herself and also carve out time for us. Okay? Okay. Parenting has been all consuming for her. You know, I think that the the shift of where our relationship really shifted was, I think when our second child was came into the picture, I think, you know, we had such a incredible relationship for for years, for like 5 or 6 years. And then I think, You know, there is a point where the mother machine kicked in, I think, where Andrew, I think, felt overwhelmed having two children and her mom dying and her house renovation and menopause. Menopause and, you know, and to me, that was a point where she kind of stopped. She put up 100% of her. The pie was into the mother machine, you know, and and I kind of.

Pleading in every way I know possible for the last ten years to, like, save some of that pie for taking care of yourself, save some of that pie for our relationship. And, it's typically made her pretty defensive. And,

Because I feel a lot of shame around it because a lot of it has to do with physical fitness.

Yeah.

He is incredibly physically fit and is very disciplined about it. And while I enjoy being, I'm naturally athletic, but I. I've let myself go, you know, I don't I have a much harder time, prioritizing exercise.

IRA, did you just say that the thing that's in the way of the marriage being the thing that you want it to be, is that Andrea doesn't take care of herself.

Devoting the time. So I feel like all of her time and focus and and and energy goes into being a mother.

Yeah. And and that kind of.

And pleading for her to also carve out a piece of that pie to take care of herself and to go do fun stuff with me, you know, and, Yeah. And I do fully understand, you know, there's major, major life events we've had, and it's a very there's all kinds of difficulties. And Andrea's been a hero and a champion. In researching, around neurodiversity and advocating for our children and, you know, like, being an incredible mother and, and moving to a, yeah.

Country and homeschooling during.

Yeah.

Like, it's done a lot.

So she's been an incredible mother. Like, our kids are incredibly, incredibly fortunate to have a mother like this. You know, she's done an incredible, incredible job. And it's a really challenging thing to have adopted neurodiverse children and to do that through lockdowns and parents dying and living and switching schools. And, you know, it's there's a lot of challenges. And I think because of that, it's even more important to spend time to, to water your garden, you know, to, like, take care of your heart, take care of your body, to take care of your the things that that you need. So you're, you know, that there's more, parts of your life than mothering. Yeah.

I mean, I'll, but I want to say, in my defense, because I feel defensive. Because you're defensive. It's not like, I don't know, stuff I do. I just don't do it the way that he does it. I'm also 58 and through menopause and there's a difference between the body I have now and the body I had when I was 42.

Of course.

Yeah. And and I had hip surgery and I had bunion surgery. And like, all of this stuff has gone down over the past three and a half years. And it was but one thing after another. And I know that life is one damn thing after another, you know, so the thing that gets us in this loop is, is it really is easy. If only I just worked out every day that everything would be back to the way you want it to be, like a.

Well, no, I think it's spending. You know, you do certainly have a slice, a thin slice of pie towards taking care of yourself and towards our relationship.

I work out.

Only.

Three days a week, but.

I but I think if you know, being, the challenges that you listed there means that needs to be a bigger slice of the pie.

I don't, I don't know how to do it.

That would. Well, I was going to say, is that a solvable problem? Is this thing that you're describing is that a solvable problem.

To spend a little bit more time taking care of yourself?

I mean, yeah, I mean, yes, that's the question. I mean, is is there more pie available?

I feel like it's hard for like I have some executive function stuff going on too. Like I am not easily self-organized.

Yeah.

And I'm somebody who does much better with a schedule, but I'm not working like I'm not working. I kind of stopped working when we had kids. And some I'm like the kind of person who, if I don't have to do stuff, then I flail a little bit.

Which is interesting that that coincides to having a second child and you stop working.

Dude, I could.

You know, well, that's what I'm saying, is that I think that even you work and gave you some schedule and some focus outside other things too. You know, I think that's healthy for you to have. But life outside of being the mother machine.

Okay.

But there, there's, there's like another thing which is like, I feel like my body is a bit of a battleground in this way, and that the loop that we've gotten into has been like, I don't want to feel like you're controlling my body. My body is my body. I've been controlled by men before. I cannot be controlled by you. And there are so many other ways that I'm an exceptional person. I have like, I actually feel like compared to most people we know, we have a really strong bond and probably have as much sex as the people that we know. Like. Not that it comes down to sex. But I think, like, I'm just having a hard time. Yeah. Just feeling like it. It's on me. And that the disappointment is on me. And I have a very. Please let me just speak misspeak. Okay. And that, you know, like, if only I would have a yoga bod. And I know that's not what you're asking for because that's not going to happen.

You know, then I would our life would be great. And I think there's also IRA is traditionally a, an optimist and a dreamer. Like, truly like you would say that about yourself, right? An optimist, a dreamer. Which in many ways is great because he gets shit done. And we do pretty interesting, cool things with our lives. But I'm, I'm not, I think ultimately, like, I'm not an adventurer. Like, I need to feel safe because of my background. Yeah, I need to feel safe in order to build a life. And it's just moving to another country is not for sissies, man. It's like, yeah, a big deal.

Before we change the time. So can I chime in on some of that? Sure. Yeah. So for me, it's just my desire is to see you flourish, to have energy, to not feel overwhelmed, to have latitude for new things, to, have a, you know, to not have a short fuze, to feel good in your body, to feel great innocence, to feel attractive and sexy, that they feel that, you know. So my desire is for you flourishing. And the reality is like our bodies need care and maintenance and and you will feel so good if you do. And I've seen you like the times when you do, when you do.

Have you heard this speech before?

And I yeah. I mean, it's for the last ten years there's been a pleading to, to set out that time to take care of yourself, that you're not all brain, you're also body and spirit.

And so I agree with that. I don't disagree with that. Like, you know, I would love that. Yeah. I'm not there right now. We just moved. We just did a huge move. We just uprooted ourselves again to move from a little town outside of Lisbon to Lisbon, to put our kids in a school where I think that they're going to be a lot more happy. It's just we're not even in our home yet. We're in an interim place while we renovate our house. Like there's just a lot and I yeah, I can't, I guess I'm not. I don't think I'm your ideal, but I don't know who your ideal is based on.

No, I want to just. It's you and you flourishing. Right. And I think the longer you put off the maintenance and, you know, the the more you're going to feel tired and the more you're going to feel depressed, and the more you're going to feel like, like lower energy and, inability.

To do anything. I'm honestly an autistic burnout. That that's like the other layer like I, I'm not holding out on you do I'm, I'm not I'm just genuinely struggling. And shame really puts me under.

Yeah. Yeah.

IRA I got a question for you. And this is I'll go meta just for a second because anytime, anytime a couple comes in here to my office and it begins to sound like if we fix them, we can fix the marriage, we fix Andrea, we fix the marriage. It's a it's a flawed. It's a flawed concept from the beginning. Like, it's there's no chance, as you articulate your, your desire and your hope even for her, which is amazing. What is what's your what's your thing? Like? You. What's the thing that IRA needs to learn? What's the thing that what's in the way for IRA? Not not externalizing it or outsourcing it? Like what do you got to. Where's your growth at here?

Well, for me, it's been honest. You know, like to me it's been to do my shadow work to be it's to look at the patterns that I've developed over time of, being kind of the person who does things right. You know, the person who's the good Christian boy that I grew up with? For me, a lot of what I'm facing right now is, is being honest about what my who am I on? And the core. What do I really desire? What do I really want? And not just, and not voice it? And, you know, like, is, to be honest, I think my whole, the journey I'm in is, is to, is to actually even know myself. You know, I think. Sure. I'm very engaged on a intellectual level and also on a physical level.

On a heart level. On a self-knowledge level, is, is the is kind of the journey that I'm in now is to really, you know, see who the full, real IRA is and what is that process of me feeling what I feel and being okay with feel and expressing what I feel? Is the journey really that that I'm on? Is it an opening of my heart and and and and honesty around my fears and honesty around my desires and honesty around my games. And not just kind of maintaining, maintaining, what is expected of me only.

Yeah.

Andrea said when she's watching a television show, somebody falls and hurts themselves. She feels it. It goes into her. Like what happens when you're watching a show and somebody falls and hurts themselves? What, do I see you inside?

I mean, it's not. And, in a, you know, amplified artistic way, but now I get really swept up and, movies and things that are really intense. I have to like, you know, again, I emotionally handle it. You know, I was crying on airplanes and stuff.

What do you. What happens if you can't emotionally handle it? What do you do?

If I'm watching a very, very sad movie.

Or if you're grappling with your kids or you're grappling with your life, and then emotionally, it becomes too, too much. And I don't know what too much is, but like, when you get pushed into this.

Space, what do you need? My motion. Right. So, that may become so, you know, like in this happens very regular in our home. There'll be some freak out. It's someone is screen time is over, and he needs to, you know, get off that iPad, you know, and that's, you know, it it you know it when things, you know. So then he'll start having a tantrum or freaking out about it and, you know, so. So I become very, you know, no emotion. And I don't yell at him, I don't scream at him. And you know, it's just like I'm just like, no, you agreed. This is the rules we did today. You start at 653. It's now 753. You know, I could become very rational and I detach my emotions from it. I become very unemotional and I become very rational and very problem solving. And then typically, what I'll do is then pay the price. I'll be the sacrificial lamb.

In what way?

Maybe not in the iPad situation, but typically, when there's a conflict, like in my business and my family, it'll be like, okay, I'll just pay for it. No one wants to pay for it. I'll pay for it.

When you say family, you mean like your larger family? Not our family.

Yeah. Or a friend group or whatever. It's, you know, typically. Yeah. So what I do is I go out of my emotions, I get really just rational and practical, and then I become the no, like, sacrificial good leader. And then, doesn't do the things that I want to do. Okay. So. Yeah. So that is my path is usually to say, all right, my hopes and dreams will put those on the back burner for later, and we'll do your hopes and dreams now, let's go for your hopes and dreams. And I'd love to one day do my hopes and dreams. Hopefully sometime in my life will get to my hopes and dreams. That's my typical pattern, is to, not engage my heart to not even say what I want. So I actually, I feel like what we're what we're doing right now is, I'm now kind of, doing that.

I'm kind of been in this journey, and it's like I'm trying to do that now of saying what I fear, saying what scares me, saying what I really desire and want. So that's kind of the journey I'm at, is kind of, and then allowing my heart to be there and, and to be hurt and not just defended.

Does that sound right to you, Andrea? Is that the is that IRA's work?

It's definitely like to come more into his heart and to be less filtered. Because I think that. IRA is really good about like, sublimating his stuff into the ether, like into kind of philosophical and spiritual discussion and also like, take it to his body, like by working out and getting super strong. But he doesn't show anger. Like, honestly, Heather, for 16 years, I don't know that he's ever really yelled at me. Maybe once. I'm afraid that I yell at this poor man. On the tape.

Okay.

And I do think that, like, good Christian boy, even though he's been deconstructing, is still like, I think the recognition of that not everything is rational and that they're there. There is something behind like a lot of stuff gets like, shunted to me de facto. Not necessarily his intention, but like, I'm the one who's like, doing the work and like, doing like he's in therapy. But I've done a lot of freaking therapy and like, research and so I'm like the emotional processing house of the family. And he's the kind of rational processing house of the family, in a sense. And I. I think it's easy for him to kind of like, deflect and to take care of me because I'm the one who needs more help.

Yeah.

And so he shuts off his stuff and hasn't really done that sifting or but but like, more than he ever has like, I.

Mean I've been in therapy right. And pure for therapy for probably 7 to 10 years now.

What are you talking about? Oh, dude. No way. Yeah. Let's see what you have.

Not. Oh. What year did I start with, doctor? Prisoners.

Not 7 to 10 years ago.

Yeah, I think so.

No, sir.

Yeah. No no no no. Serious.

It's amazing that this happens a lot more than you think where people will just have.

No, I think clean detachment.

From what time.

And he and I would go out in the cottage and meet with Doctor Christmas on Zoom. It was like.

Two years you did with versus.

I think like but that's when it that's when I but but my point is we could get it whether it's five years or seven years. It's at least five. But I, it's not like I'm not in therapy. No, no. And I think you take more breaks from therapy is an idea.

Well, I do more therapy.

No, no, no, I'm just I'm just saying that you're there is kind of this gloated out there that I'm not doing the work. You know, that you're I'm sorry that you're saying you're the one who does all the the work, all the, like, therapeutic work. And then, and I'm like, no, I've been this. The lot of me even talking about this is because of the work. The therapeutic work I'm doing and becoming, aware of the shadow side and becoming aware of my parts and becoming aware of, needs and now I'm expressing them, you know, instead of being the one who's who's continually, you know, being responsible and working and working with, working, working and having my hopes and dreams, maybe possibly in the future, hopefully to like, no, let's do this, let's do this. Let's I want to shifted from wedding photography to doing my passion of art photography. That's always been my passion.

So let me let me backtrack and say that you're right. You have. You've been working hard. But not for ten years anyway I, I don't. Okay I, I'm sorry that was not cool of me to dismiss what you've been doing. I'm really sorry. I think maybe for me it's always, it's kind of always been obvious that I need some help. Like I just think I'll be in therapy my whole life, honestly, in some form or another. It's just kind of like it. It's. I don't know if it's, I just have a I have a lot. And I am a lot. Yeah. And sometimes it's easier to live with myself than others. I think I'm just really tired.

Yeah.

Right now.

Where does it where does it show up for you guys? The thing. The thing that is hard for you. Does it show up 24 seven or does it show up on Tuesday afternoon? Does it show up on at bedtime? Does it show up when you're at the end of a sales quarter? Like, when does the thing emerge? The thing that's the thing that's that were pointing at and go, if that were different. We would call it better. Is it random? Is it when you travel? Is it strictly in parenting?

I find it really hard to dismantle everything and say it's this or that or that. Okay, I think we, we are people of flux and change like we, you know, in the time that we've been together have, you know, like made huge changes like moving from New York City out to Long Island, buying a house, renovating it, adopting one, two children, deciding after Covid that we wanted to leave the states, selling the house, moving here, learning the language like, you know, and then now buying a new place and moving schools and houses and renovating like a new place. We I don't think this is how everyone lives. It's kind of how we are living. I think it takes a lot for me to feel settled and grounded, like I don't feel grounded. I just feel exhausted. And I am I'm doing all kinds of things. I'm seeing a hormone doctor. I'm losing weight. I'm trying to work out, but it's.

It never seems like it's enough to, like, really sustain, at least in IRA's eyes. Me taking care of myself.

I think it'll be when you. I feel like we spend so much time worrying about things.

I.

I have so much time talking through things, so much time being serious. I think for me, it'll be when we can have more time to do fun, like having fun conversations.

But dude, we.

You know, I have more of a.

13 year old like I don't, but like, yes, wouldn't that be lovely? And they do go away on holidays together and have romantic times.

And I think it's when, you know, when we can expand our conversations outside of worrying about the kids and worrying about life and worrying and worrying and stress and anxiety and and have conversations where you're not saying how tired you are and how overwhelmed.

You make me and tired.

And I want you to have energy. I want you to feel good in your body. I want you to feel ready to go do fun stuff. I want you to ready, you know, to me, like that's the mark is when you are flourishing. I want to see, you know, like you us flourishing. That's the goal, right?

It just feels like I said this to IRA this morning. Like I'm a fist pushing a boulder uphill.

Sure. I get that.

So. And also like that I get, I get annoyed because I'm like what fantasy do you live in. Like what's what 58 year old mother of two neurodivergent kids who just moved across the world are you thinking about.

Well, I.

Don't and I was Cupid flitting around trying to like, put his love arrow into you and make it.

Yeah, that's kind of. But, like, that's, you know, an exaggeration, obviously. Of course. But I feel like, you know, I wish you could step into my shoes and see what it's like to be in my body. Because as you obviously don't know.

Well I, we spent a lot of time talking about it and I fully feel it and see it and understand it. And I just want you to feel good in your body. I want you to have a sense of peace that.

You don't want this to be about boulders.

Well, that the boulders, well, that you have energy, right? That it's not all about things that are anxiety building, that you have time and energy to enjoy life.

I would love, I would love that. So let's stop moving. Let's stop. Okay, okay. But like you want to do all of this fun stuff, like I just, I feel like I can't keep up with who you want me to be, who you need me to be in order to be happy.

I think of you. Flourishing is what I'm what. I love you, and I want you to flourish and to have to feel good. Yeah. Because for me, if I'm to share my feelings on my heart, is it's draining to have the vast majority of our conversations be about what you're anxious about. I'm because I'm there. I will connect with you and be intimate on what you're anxious about and worrying and problem solving. But I it gets draining.

I can and it's very draining.

Also.

To.

Want to do other things. I also want to do things that are fun with you. And you know, we have all these hopes and dreams about what we want to do in the world. And, and I want to do those things. And so for me, it's it's like continually hearing about not having energy, hearing about how your body hurts, hearing about I'm like, well, let's can we fix that? Can that be improved? You know? And to me, part of it is means taking care of yourself.

Yes. I'm trying. All I can say is like, I am trying my best, to to my ability. I'm trying, I'm trying, and I think.

I think we've tried.

I feel like that's never enough.

Well, it's when you feel good, right?

I don't know how many people under these circumstances who are kind of feel good and great, I really don't. I think you're I think your sense of reality is so in the ether and in the ideal and in, like, consumer land, like what I, I just don't know who you're talking about.

A flourishing person.

I do know many flourishing. Who who do you know that's flourishing?

I mean, I think even I mean, I think everyone is to different degrees, right? It's like, okay, pause.

Just pause. If I don't interrupt you, how long does this conversation go?

16 years.

You'll do this. You'll circle each other around and around?

Yeah. No, at a certain it has to stop, like at a certain.

Point because somebody knocks on the door because you guys find a way through.

It's a good question.

Yeah, it's probably because somebody knocks on the door because.

We're we have to.

Do is we haven't found a way through.

I would say we kind of haven't found a way through. That's really lots to. Yeah. Like we went to a therapist for a while, but the ultimate thing was like, okay, I'm going to make myself a schedule for this is what I'm going to do. I have executive function problems, things change. The schedule never happens.

So I have a couple of things I have. I have a ton more questions. Of course, as I said, my awareness of time, which we are out of for today, I can already tell you that this is going to be very valuable for a lot of people to hear. The two of you kind of map this out and articulate your struggles in a way that is thoughtful and deliberate and kind. That'll go a long way. We still have a lot of work to do. Like we have a lot of. Gaps to fill in. And I'm going to think about it a lot. And but I, I want to thank you. I want to honor you. And I want to reward you for just taking this step. It's a good one. And, and I think, I think I need to do two things. So, we'll press pause. We'll pick it up again, another time and, I think there's hope to answer your question.

Like, do I think you can have the thing you want? Yeah. Do you have a big boulder in the way that you got to push up the hill and hope that it stays? Of course. But we'll have to sort through that together. You guys are not alone by any stretch of the imagination. What's unique is that you have a lot of language around it. But that language isn't helpful yet. You know, sometimes the answer is just going, yep, this is our life. I guess I'm going to celebrate the parts of my life that work, because the alternative is to grieve the parts that don't. And, you know, you spend too much time grieving. You miss out on the things that you have an opportunity to celebrate.

And that's just that's just the gig. You know, it's way easier to do that when you have, when like 80% of your life is great. It's way harder to do that when, say, 52% of your life is great. But it still is the secret is still to lean into and maximize optimize the parts that are great, because there are always going to be parts that aren't. That is just that is just real. And so navigating that grief with something like creativity. And courage is, is the secret. So we'll we'll have to figure that out. Let's see if we can. Let's see if we can't find it together.

Yeah.

Thank you Zach.