Blind Spots and Second Chances with Matthew Fray and Jen

You're rescuing me? Because I was stuck. I had an interview scheduled, and they were like, I have a family emergency. Was like, hey, man, I'll call. I'll see what it's up to. So, anyway, Jen, it's nice to meet you.

It's nice to meet you, too, Zach.

I think I own that t shirt. What does it say?

My. My shirt. Yeah, it says bourbon and books.

Yeah. Right on. Is that it? You're, And you're sitting in front of a wall. Of what?

Predominantly bourbon. Yeah, there's a little bit of rye and, like, other American whiskeys in here, but we're largely. This was a gift. This shirt. I'm. I'm fond of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I have that shirt. And bourbon is your part of your story, right? It's like you said. It's how you met. What does that story tell us?

Okay, well, I don't know, Jen. If you want to go ahead, you elbow me any time, I'm, like, speaking, okay? And I apologize. So if we're going to be, like, the most, like, all the way transparent about how we met. Yeah, I was applying for a job. Okay. In which Jen was would have been my boss had I gotten it many years ago when we were both still married to other human beings. And, we worked together for nine years, and it was in the ninth year when I actually got to the final year I was working there is when I got to no job.

For Time out. Time out. Right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. We didn't work together. We worked at the same company and had the same functions in two different departments. So we didn't really see each other a lot. Just passing in the hallway.

Was it a bourbon company or what was the deal?

Now we're a company that sells automotive performance parts.

Okay.

And anyway, but then I wanted to just be clear that, like, I knew of Jen. Gotcha. But what happened was my best friend, my childhood best friend, got me into bourbon. He, like, poisoned me with this hobby, this disgustingly sick, expensive, not super smart, but. Yes. Yeah. Life or hobby. Yeah. And I found out through the grapevine at work that Jen was a bourbon person. And so that is how we started hanging out socially. Yeah. And that was roughly 6 or 8 years ago.

Yeah. I don't know if this is exactly the angle that that I have, but, so I, I don't know if you know this or if it matters. Everybody on the podcast knows I'm sober like five years now, so I, and I bourbon was my my jam. I was totally into it. Although I wasn't classy about it. I was trashy about my bourbon fascination. But I, talk to me a little bit about, like, how you have or maintain a hobby that's around bourbon that hasn't ruined your life. Or maybe it has ruined your life. I'm not.

I never know. Yeah. Or yet you. Me, I have never felt. In fact, I sort of, I don't I don't drink alone, like.

Yeah, yeah, I.

Only will have like, sips when Jen's around. And I also would say that I drink less alcohol than, like in days where I would drink beer, wine where I would just, I would consume a lot. This is relatively like these were like small pours. Yeah. That were sipping like pretentious, feeble. Yeah. And, it's just a radically different experience, I don't know. And again, I don't want to speak for Jen, but I've, I've say I've been very blessed where I simply am wired to not have that be like so part of the experience.

Yeah. No.

I ever felt the compulsion and and I feel awful for everybody that has. And Jack, honestly, I have made a different choice. Yeah. About this. And I. Yeah. That was in your history. I'm really sorry.

Oh, gosh. No. Nope. Okay, I do not my, my, relationship with alcohol. I don't impose that on anyone else at all. Ever. Like, it is not about you. It is. And, you know, I'm really fortunate because I. I'm a little bit of a unicorn when it comes to the way I got sober, which is I just decided, I mean, I'd rather that's not really true, but when I decided I literally chose my day, I was halfway through, a six pack when midnight rolled around and I was like, I'm done. And I poured it out, and I was I was done, but, no, it was ruining my life for sure, and I but I, you you I would love to sit there with you and hear you to regale me with stories. I'd love to smell it at that. I think I can smell it better now. Like, it's weird because, you probably know that it has notes, right?

Different Bourbons have different notes, and they have different qualities. And for the first time, I can actually smell it versus like, just poured down my gullet, you know, like, so anyway, tell me a little bit about the story of how you guys came together, through bourbon. That would be fun.

And I think there's, like, a really cool way to put it. I always jokingly say, but I think it's a little bit true when to, like, single people spend a lot of time drinking whiskey together. Like, it's not weird for one thing to lead to another is sort of my really stupid, sort of like way of talking about it. Yeah. And, the part like, liking Jen's company was easy. Yeah. Me identifying Jen as somebody that I would prefer to spend the rest of my life with took a lot of time for me. You know, my backstory. Yeah, with the devil. I mean, I've, I've. I've built my my modern day work on my regrets around my divorce and my fears around, you know, all of the little things that happened in committed relationships, my, my workspace to the idea that we hurt one another in our blind spots.

Yeah. And how can you be sure that you're not going to sabotage, like, a new thing? Yeah. This is the, you know, was the narrative running into my head for for a while? Jen was just really cool about it because she. I think she understood me. I think she I don't wanna speak for her, but like, Jen knew my work and knew that I had been adversely affected by the end of my marriage. Yeah. So I think I received some grace on account of that.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, he was I don't want to say it's not Tim. It just slow, you know, he was warm. It wasn't like he had these walls up and he wasn't cold. It was. We were just taking it slow. And we were not in a hurry for anything, so it was fine. You know, let's just enjoy more, more bourbon together.

Do you, Jen, also come from a marriage that has ended?

Yes.

So what I I'm curious about this sometimes, and I think, you know, the answer to this question is valuable to people who are thinking about the end of their marriage. But like, do you each I know, Matt, you do. But like, do you have a story about when you knew, like when did you know the first one was over? What was the what? When did you know or did you know? Did you know when you got told or did you know at some point before that.

For, for me and and it sounds awful and I'll say it, he was late coming home from work and he hadn't called. And I thought, well, if he doesn't come home, this is my way out. And that's when I thought, oh, no, I got gotta I have to end it, you know, it was slow. It was like, very slow. It was, it mirrored a lot of of Matt's relationship where it was a slow, decline and it's slow erosion.

So, Jen, did you just tell me that you the the beginning of the end for you was this new thought that you had about like, if X, then I can be done. And between that point and when you were done, was that a week, a month, a year? Oh.

It took a little bit. And I'm very bad at remembering time. It can either be, a couple days or it could be a month. And to me, it's the same. Yeah. I want to say it was about six, 6 or 8 months. Yeah. Frustrating conversations and, you know, going back and forth and, when I read Matt's book, I actually I had to keep myself from getting mad at him because it was so much like what I went through.

Oh, man.

Conversations and the experiences. And I remember telling him I was like, I'm mad at you, but I'm not mad at you.

Meaning? Meaning, Matt. Was it the same like the character in Matt's book that Matt was? It was the was the person you were married to?

Yes. The similarities were insane.

Okay. So how did you give yourself permission to go for round two?

Well, I think it's great, you know. Yeah, it was, How could I not? How about that?

Well, I mean, I can imagine lots of reasons why you could not. I mean, if you if you're looking at this story and going, this this is exactly my story. I don't want to sign up for this again, but something about and and, you know, I have some theories too, because I've talked to Matt a bunch of times. This is a guy who's capable of learning from the part that he played. You know, that's that's probably part of it, I would imagine.

Yeah, he's he's done the work. And because he's done the work and he's aware of it and he continues to do the work, you know, he shows off and he shows up in a way that I can trust. And I believe in love.

So yeah.

I mean, it wasn't even I didn't hesitate.

Yeah, but Matt, you're sitting there nodding your head. You're going. I can think of reasons why she wouldn't sign up for round two. You're like, what do you got going?

Well, I'm just saying I talk to people like Jen, like, all the time. You know, as you know, I'm like the dime store version of you. Yeah. And. Yeah, it's great. And, but but I'm, I'm exposed to to lots of stories, and I understand, I mean, one of one of the ideas that I'm always trying to champion is, is the notion that intelligence and character do not necessarily correlate with good relationship partner. Yeah. So somebody can be very smart and very high character and very well intentioned, and the sum of their actions can still hurt the people that they profess to love. Yeah. If they're not sort of vigilant about concepts around consideration and things like that. And so you can be scared of like good people. And I would like to I, I do regard me as a pretty solid person.

Yeah. My intentions are definitely good and I'm reasonably, reasonably high character. I'd like to think people, you know, like I think that I think people would say so, but that doesn't mean I'm not a huge threat to harm you. Yeah, because I'm not careful or because I don't, handle with care that which matters to you. Yeah. On a case by case basis, I can still do that. And I have and I have with Jen around certain preferences, you know, just little, little blind spot things that where I don't experience it the same way the genders. But yeah, I'd like to think I'm pretty receptive to the feedback in a manner where I was very defensive in invalidating in my marriage. Yeah, I just don't do that. Now.

Can you talk more about this blind spot theory? And, Jen, I'd love for you to weigh in as well, but because I think it's a it's a novel angle that not a lot of people think about, but I bet my bet is very easy for them to go, oh, yeah, I like I definitely. So how did you form that and how do you think about it now? I'm less interested in how you think about it professionally than I am, and how the two of you think about it.

Personally, I guess this could be a little naive. I guess I just sort of believe in the decency of the average person. I believe that on average, I understand there's there's outliers and anomalies always, but that on average, two adults choosing to get married in the year 2025 or whenever in the last 20 years, they know the score. They understand that it's approximately a 5050 proposition, that it's hard. They've met tons of people who fight, who are unhappy, they've seen divorces happen. They're like this is a scary idea, but I'm still gonna, like, throw my chips in with this person and have a couple of kids and try to make it work. And then, like clockwork, half the time it doesn't work.

I can't think of a rational explanation for that idea other than it happens by accident. Air quotes. It happens in people's blind spots. Nobody's intentionally sabotaging the lives of their children and their spouse again. Again, by and large, I know that some people do that, and I want to make room for the people that are married to somebody like that or have crossed paths with somebody like that, but I think most people are sort of inherently good and trying hard, yet their marriages don't work out, even though they really did love each other.

They're both pretty solid people. I don't know. I chalk that up to you. Didn't know better. So how can we make it so that you do, and then you sort of vigilantly protect the other person from from those behaviors, whatever they may be. And it's different. It's going to be different for every individual couple. Anyway. And I don't I don't want to speak for Jen here. I don't know how Jen thinks about it but I don't know that we've ever had this exact conversation. So I'd love to hear.

Well I, I agree that you know they're they're blind spots. Right. And I think the proof and intent and and if the person is trustworthy is what happens when you bring it up. You know, what happens when you talk about it? When you say, hey, this happened and, and, and what's great about Matt is he'll listen and he will. We can have a conversation. He doesn't get defensive and he doesn't say, no, I didn't do that. And that's that's the work. And I have to hold myself accountable, too. And if he brings something to me, you know, I have to bring that same open mindedness and and care. And I think we do a good job at that.

I haven't had a ton of relationships in my life. Jen is pretty fabulous.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, what do you know about your blind spots? Like, where do they show up for the two of you?

My jack. Mine's really sort of like classic ADHD. I'm sure you encounter, man, that, people. Yeah. Often men. Yeah. That are maybe not super reliable around communicating, plans logistically or communicating thoughts and feelings they may be having, I don't know that that sort of do things that appear to be really selfish, but they just sort of forgot that the other person might be impacted by something they do or don't do that. Those are my blind spots. Yeah, sort of classic ADHD stuff. I don't, you know, I'd love to. Not literally, but but I wish I could tell you what I perceive. Jen's a very considerate human being, so I'd be interested what Jen perceives in her blind spot.

Jen, I want you to think about it for a second, but can I ask you a question about this ADHD thing? Because I know for a fact that people listening a lot of their ears just perked up. They're like, wait, what? The ADHD? Hold on, how do you do that? Like, how do you have a happy or successful or manageable relationship when ADHD and the symptoms primarily not even the diagnosis, but the symptoms are wreaking havoc, like Jen, do you have thoughts about that or do you, Matt, have you formed that for yourself? Like how do you, mitigate that or how do you protect against the the symptoms of that diagnosis?

Yeah, I have I have thoughts about it. And, and my biggest thought is that I know this about him. You're right. I, I know who he is, and I know how it shows up, and I've chosen him, so I have extra patience around those things. But I also know how to raise a flag when I need to. I'm a lot of it is around planning. Like planning for a trip, getting logistics together. I like to have, I like, I like to have things planned, not not aggressively, but I like to know at least a week ahead of time if we're going on a town. What what the deal is when we're leaving, you know, when do I need to arrange for, like, the cat sitter?

When do I need to call off work? I have, I have a food allergy. I can't eat gluten, so I need to know where we're going so I can be ready, with where we can eat at a moment's notice, or, like, what snacks I need to bring. So I have more of a planning need. Where? He's not, he doesn't plan ahead, in the same way. And so that might be the biggest part where we are different and we're a blind spot. Might show up. But I have a lot of grace for it, because, again, I know this about him. Yeah. And I still chose him.

Yeah, I remember this. That you have a gluten allergy. Not that you do, but you have a story, Matt, about how about donuts or something, right? Like that. You, that you kind of. It's one of your go tos, and I, I stole it. I used it for a while, but I refreshed me.

Nice. Well, no, I and so I tell my clients this all the time. So what I want to encourage people to do is be careful, for lack of a better term, mindfully considerate of the needs of another person. So. Right. And, and, and I think it's really hard when something doesn't seem important to you. Yeah. Right. If something doesn't seem important, like your brain doesn't clock it as important, you don't behave as if it's a big deal. So I tell the story of Jen's gluten allergy, and I try to get specific, and I, I want for anybody listening that's trying to, like, parse through all of this that maybe as an ADHD partner, Jen and I don't currently live together, and I want to raise my hand and acknowledge that my ADHD will become more of an issue where when Jen and I share an address one day.

Yeah, there'll be more instances mathematically of my ADHD coming into conflict with some of Jen's preference. Yeah, and that's honestly when my consideration is going to really be put to the test. Yeah. Yeah, that's I'm really confident about it. Yeah. I just know that I'll do the work. But, I just it's easier for us then for the couple that's been married and living together for 20 years. Yeah. And I think both of us want to acknowledge that. Yeah. For anybody who's listening, we're not trying to, like, paint a picture differently than what it is. But what I like to tell my client is how if Jen comes over and I've been eating a sandwich, for example, and then I. I'm often holding up, like, my bottle of water while I'm talking to them, and I say, listen, if I eat a sandwich and then I with my sandwich, my hand that I haven't washed yet, touch this.

And then I hand it to Jen like, oh, you got to try this really special drink. I'm having that is a threat to get Jen sick. Let's say she rubs the corner of her mouth. Let's say she picks up a carrot and eats it. That is enough to like sort of transfer. Like you know that the gluten that she experienced toxically and and get her sick. So I had to learn to apply the concept of danger, to a benign substance like Brad. Something. My entire life, I never thought as harmful other than carbs. I've had to learn to think of it as poisonous. Not for me and everybody that almost everybody that I know. But Jen very specifically needs to be air quotes protected from bread, from gluten, from from flour tortillas, from all sorts of things.

So what I ask my clients to do is really think through that story and think, you know, can't we do that? Around around emotions in our relationships? Can we look out for somebody who experiences scenarios differently than we do? And I absolutely think so. And frankly, I think it's necessary for trust and intimacy to exist in marriage.

I love that, I remember I remember you telling me that story and like, oh, yeah, it's really hard to protect yourself from somebody that, or from something that you don't think is dangerous. And sometimes that thing is you, like, I was when I was texting you last night, I was literally, like, with my kid, and I had just gotten that cancellation, and I was about to go to a movie. You were about to go to see Fantastic Four. I don't know if you've seen it yet, or if that comic book movies are your jam, but like, there's a moment in the movie where he's like, I'm just being me, basically is what he's arguing. Reed Richards is to sue storm, and she goes, yes, but sometimes you being you hurts me.

And I was like, oh, it's like it's true. And it doesn't even mean that you're being hurtful or that you're being malicious. It just means that you being you. Sometimes it hurts me. And that maybe is what you're describing as the blindspot situation. And I think one thing that I know about you and your ADHD is that you, you have some humility about it. You don't have like, a bunch of, like, sorry, I'm ADHD. That's just the way it is. You know, it's more like, yeah, this is part of the gig. And when I talk to people too, about humility, I want to differentiate between humility and humiliation. Like having some humility about your ADHD is different than being humiliated by this diagnosis that you have.

And honestly, it could be alcoholism, could be cancer. It could be, you know, arthritis could be it doesn't matter. But like having some humility about the fact that you're not a whole, complete, perfectly functional robot person is important. I think when you're when you're trying to tip the scales away from 5050 anyway.

Yeah. Zach, I just wanted to add, I mean, that you I loved I loved you recounting that exchange. I remember because I've seen the film twice between read and two and, and I think in the average marriage, the average relationship, it's really easy for the super smart. He's a genius. Yeah. And really good hearted, well-intentioned guy to get defensive in that moment.

Yeah.

And then boom, fights happen, right? Yeah. Happens all the time. And, I think most women listening that are in relationships with men will say, yes, I've had plenty of experiences where I tried to communicate some pain I was feeling or some fear I was having, or some stress I was experiencing. And he made it out like I was attacking him. And that got defensive about him. And so it's like I tried to share, and instead of sharing, he sort of hijacked it, made it about his discomfort, and abandoned me to feel the bad thing alone. And that is what I am always. I really want people to be identifying that pattern in that relationship. And so if there are men like me prone to defensiveness listening to this conversation, please think about how you can respond non defensively to what is happening to somebody else.

Yeah. Despite your best intentions, you're still allowed to explain yourself. But let's start with it's not okay for you to experience bad things because of something I've done.

Yeah he actually does a good job at that a second time in the movie. Or a different point when he's talking to Ben. Grammy's talking to that thing and he's like, I'm a genius. And he's like, oh yeah, can you cook? He says, I think that's more of an art than a science. He goes, did you pass your driver test? And he goes, that was that was instructor area or that was, that was poor signage, I think he says. But he, he has the, the literature of being defensive. But then he turns and he just smiles and laughs. And they kind of acknowledge the imperfection of humanity together, even from these like, super people. So, I'm totally I'm totally on board.

I had a guy on the podcast a few years ago. I don't know, it sounds like he may be of a like mind, but his name is Ryan Airy and he has a YouTube channel called Screen Crash, and he's one of these guys who does all that. These are this is everything you missed from the movie last night. So, I'll just plug screen Crash and Ryan Airy, because I like nerding out about superhero stuff. It's it's kind of fun. Is that your jam, Jen? Do you share the superhero thing, or is that, is that over there?

I share it now. I, I was, I was brought into it, yeah. One of the, one of the things that we did was, we sat down and we go through the entire MCU. Yeah, and watched movie. Okay. And Matt. Matt taught me up to speed. Yeah. So I appreciate it. I don't I don't nerd out over it. Yeah, much, but I, I look forward to each movie.

Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Do you tell me about your blind spots? What do you know? What do you know about what you bring into the table and how that shows up for the two of you? This is the question that I think that you said, Matt, you haven't quite asked yet.

I mean, I yeah, we've never had this specific conversation. I, I'd be very interested in what Jen. Well, I'm.

Glad to be the catalyst.

Well, no, I want to be clear that I don't want to set it up like, I don't mean this. And, Oh. Let's see what you say. No way. Like, I swear to you, it's not obvious to me what the bad relational thing Jen does is. I. I can't identify it. So I think there's a chance that on a case by case basis, she might perceive me and or somebody else to be a little on the sensitive side about something. Yeah, she might, if that's probably if I had to power rank things the number one because it's really easy to invalidate when you think somebody's being, you know, making a bigger deal out of something than they should. But anyway, I, I want to be quiet like Jen into this.

I think that that's about it, that I can sometimes come across cold or, you know, just a little less emotionally, available. And then other than that, just as Matt would say, take taking risks when I shouldn't,

That's a, that's a bug, not a feature or a how do you. What do you mean?

It depends on which one of you you up? Yeah. Well, I'm asking. You think it's a feature, right? Yeah. And that that might be the blind spot where I will do a thing that makes him uncomfortable. But I don't I don't think I don't think about it making him uncomfortable, you know. Yeah.

What do you know about.

She's a motorcycle girl, Zach. Or a psycho girl? It took me asking nicely to get her to wear a helmet. It did. She spent 20 plus years not wearing a helmet on her mind.

On it. I want to I would like to set the record straight on when I wore a helmet for many, many years. I my dad is also a motorcyclist. Okay? He quit wearing a helmet. My parents quit wearing helmets and so I stopped wearing mine to try to show them the anxiety that you feel.

Teach him a lesson.

Doesn't wear a helmet. Yeah, yeah. And it didn't work. They were like, yeah, isn't it great? And I thought and I said, yeah, it actually is really great. So I developed a bad habit of, small around town trips of not wearing a helmet right now. And, and Matt asked me to stop doing that. Yeah. And I wear a helmet every time now. Yeah.

Did, what can you tell me about this thing that you're describing as sometimes I come across as cold, like Matt has the advantage, or. I don't know if it's advantage is the right word, but he's able to go. I have this diagnosis and that the symptoms of that diagnosis are pain in the. But sometimes some of us, like me and you, perhaps like we come across as aloof or cold. And it's not a diagnosis, it's just a thing like, what do you know about your thing?

I know that it was how I was raised and that I try to be in my friendships and my my working relationships and in my relationships. I try to do better than how I was raised. Time, but I can tell sometimes, almost say the thing that would be the do better, but I don't say it. Yeah. And I don't know why. There's no reason. I'm not afraid, you know. I'm not afraid of saying it. I just sometimes don't. And so, you know, it's a work in progress.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure that out. Like there's a the word that's become, kind of in this case, now that I'm clinging to because it makes me feel good, is stoic. I'm just a stoic. I'm just kind of, you know. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not a jerk. I'm not aloof. I'm not. I'm just. I'm just, philosophically, you know, thoughtful.

I like that. I'll use that to,

What do you, All right, so it sounds like you have, some staying power. It sounds like maybe you're you're tipped the scales towards, the. I don't know what the better side of 5050 is, but you're you're on the. It's not quite a corn coin toss side of the equation. And what do you attribute that to? If you said, hey, the reason the two of us are making it work, the reason you can look into the future and say we're going to live in the same house, that sounds like a thing that's on your agenda. Like, what does your confidence come from? What would you say is the is this is the code or the secret?

I mean, I mean, I, I have thoughts about it, but Jen may have a different answer. Thinking about relationship partners. I'm an advocate for radical personal responsibility. I can control what I can control. I love that I can control my actions. Yeah. And I also get to decide who I choose to partner with. So I, I have limited bandwidth for somebody who chose somebody and then is like, I just don't like, like 80% of them anymore. After 15 years, I have a pretty low tolerance for it. But I am again, everybody's story is different. Yeah. And it's going to it's going again depending on how many times you've felt betrayed, how many times you've felt injured, relationally speaking. The reason I'm really confident with John one, she absolutely like parses my personal sort of like litmus test for like the kind of person I want to be around.

Yeah. Like I she's she's fantastic. So that that's like the easy part. The hard part for me is do I trust me? Like, do I trust me to not behave the way that I did, that I calculate to be the largest reason my marriage ended? And I absolutely do. And the fundamental distinction is twofold. One, I'm aware of how harmful my sort of lack of consideration can be to trust in a relationship and to another person, A and B I, I've developed like a vocabulary to have conversations about it. I yeah I, I didn't know how to talk about things like this 15 years ago. Yeah. It just didn't have the language for tonight. That takes work. Like for a person that doesn't feel, I don't know, relationally literate. It's you got to try to be. Yeah. And I tried to be because they didn't want a repeat of the end of my marriage. Yeah. And so that that's what I would say about this.

Yeah.

Jen, on the other hand, I feel like has to like, gauge her tolerance level for my bullshit. And so I would I be interested in why she's like, oh, I think I can deal because like, what if she's wrong? But if like a year seven. Yeah. Of living together, she's like, okay. Yeah, I've absolutely had enough of this. Yeah, yeah.

It's not. No, I don't tolerate you. I've never met someone who gets me. We the way they hit on is we, our brains are very similar. I'm also a writer, and I call it writer brains. We're able to understand each other, and we have, you know, the same moral compass and we're very similar. We're very different in many ways. But the ways that we're very similar are important. I think that right there is, is reason enough to trust that this will work. Yeah.

Yeah. There's a phrase in my line of work, it's called relational reckoning. And basically it's looking at the relationship and appreciating that the things that are working or the things that are going for you are big enough to offset the things that aren't working or the things that aren't working for you. And that's, that's really what it's about. Like at that point, you have, you know, it's if it's if it's a, if it's a, if it's working way better, it's easy to stay in and easy to kind of continue to do the work. If it's working just a little bit better, the works a little bit harder. Maybe you have to work that much more, but obviously when it's offset in the other direction that what's not working is bigger than what's what isn't.

And I think, you know what I didn't say about Jen, your story of when you knew your relationship was over is there's a part of the Gottman research, which is divorce prediction research that is, the number one predictor of divorce is thinking about divorce. People who think about divorce get divorce more often than people who don't think about divorce, you know, and people who I mean, people who think about running marathons, run more marathons, people who don't. So a lot of times you have to get people into a mindset of thinking about making this work, thinking about making it work, versus thinking about how do I get out? Because this is why I asked you, like, do you remember about how long it took between those first inklings of the thought to the end? And maybe it was six months or 6 or 8 months, but that's a reasonable path to be on.

If you're thinking about your exit strategy, you'll find it, you know, and if you're not, if you're thinking about your entrance strategy or in, you know, how to stay in, then you can find that too. So I appreciate that you guys are doing that. Blind spots and oh.

I don't I don't think people think about it like this. Like sort of the average person because it's so easy. Right. Like generally it's so easy. We're just like friends and it's great and and it's fun. But if every single time I did something that giant experiences disrespectful or inconsiderate, I did the invalidation dance with her and I'm like, hey, because I don't think about it the way you think about it, because I don't feel about it the way you feel about it, that's your problem. Like, I'm fine the way that I am. Yeah, you know, I'm not. I'm not any different than I've always been. And and that's always the same conversation. Nothing ever gets better at progressively gets worse. Yeah, a little bit at a time. Until someone like Jen starts to make a hard decision about whether to walk away or not. And I just again, it's the privilege of being on the other side of divorce.

A and B having done this like relationship work is fine. Highly concerned about not beginning a pattern of paper cutting. Jennifer's trust in me.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah like that. That can't happen. And I think about that a lot. Yeah. Where again I, I think the average young couple just getting together that that's not something that they're considering.

Yeah. Yeah yeah I gotcha. Oh man. Well I love talking to you. I forgot it's been a while. And, thank you so much for Rescue Me today. Jenny's pleasure to meet you. And do you have a do we know when are you guys moving in together? Is that a thing or is it still just a moving target?

That's okay. It might be a slight moving target just for logistics reasons, but, the number one thing, I honestly think that we already would if I didn't have a child. Yeah, I have a son who's a senior in high school. Yeah. And so we're in the final year of, like, cam sort of meeting parents at home, things like that. Yeah. And I figured, I figured once we get him off to school following high school graduation, that, that clears the path, the combined forces somewhere.

So you're saying we should check in with you in in about a year and see see what's going on, see how you're you're doing.

I'm probably more like 18 months, but yeah. Okay, I, I think I think in a year we'll have a pretty concrete plan at least.

There you go. There you go. All right, guys, what's been a pleasure talking to you. I really appreciate again that you, you're available on short notice and.