Zach's Mom and Stepdad Share their Second Marriage Journey

Hi, mom.

Isaac.

How you doing?

I'm good. How about you?

Very good. How are you guys doing today?

So far, so good. Right now, dad is just starting for us, though.

Me too. Have you ever been on a podcast before?

Nope.

No. How are you feeling? Are you nervous?

Yes.

Okay. How about I just. How are you feeling this morning?

Just another day.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty big day. You guys have, like, this is your 15 minutes. You're coming out. Coming out. And, to do the thing, all your friends are going to listen to this, and they're going to. They're going to tell you how amazing you are.

Okay. That the good you.

Mom. Jo, you've been my mom for 52 years. Yeah.

That's correct.

And, Otis, you've been my stepdad for about half that. Is that right? Close 25. You guys celebrate your 25th anniversary.

Right?

So that means you've been married? Not as long as me.

That's correct. You've got three years on me, and you often tell me that.

Yeah. What I want to know is, do you need any advice right now? Do you, you're talking to a marriage expert, and I'm just wondering if I can help you guys in any specific kind of way.

If we have any questions, I'll ask.

Okay. Right. How do you feel, mom? About the, About about your son being a relationship expert. Do you have opinions about that?

That's a hard question for me, but no.

I know that's a hard question. So we're going.

To ask.

You. Do I have to warm-ups?

Well, no, I don't have any questions. You could. I wouldn't be surprised with anything you did.

So you wouldn't be surprised with anything that I did? Sort of.

No. Well, you're. You could do almost anything you want if you set your mind to it.

I've had a couple of conversations on the podcast with people that I went to high school with, and I asked them if they're surprised that this is where I ended up as a career. And, I, I'm, I'm kind of not, but you know me. You've known me the longest. I just this but this isn't a surprise for you.

No. Not really.

All right. I want to ask you guys a question that I'm actually dying to hear you just talk about. In general, when you got married. I've told this story a lot on the podcast. You got married for 35 years. There was none of this death do us part.

That's right. Right. Right.

And how would you as what must have been in your mid 50s at that point?

I think that that point I was 52. Okay. Same age as you are.

Same age as me. There's hope for me yet. I'm just kidding. Okay. What was that about? What did how did you guys come up with that. What is and what's been your experience. Your you got your father in law. You got only got ten years left. Tell me about your your your vow and what that means to you and what your experience has been.

This idea.

It was. And, and it it was basically a joke and, and at teasing with her, I said, you know, after 35 years, maybe, maybe I'm gonna check out the nursing homes and see what's out there.

And see who's there.

Yeah, and it wasn't in our vows. It's just in our regs.

Well, so it was. It's more permanent than the thing you. You said in 2000. What was that one? No. Oh.

2000.

Yeah.

There weren't a whole bunch of people standing around with their phones recording what you said word for word to hold you to it. So you decided to etch them into that piece of jewelry that you, they worry about.

Yes.

And we talk about it from time to time. It's, it's a fun thing that, generates some conversation every now and then.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Tell me what you've learned. Okay. Hold on. Let's get some context here. Mom, you were married to my dad. For how long?

29 years.

Okay. So? So. All right. And then notice, how about your your first.

Marriage, 27.

And, I've told people like, I think you would agree with this. We've had this conversation a lot over the last 25 years that this marriage for sure is way better than those two were for each of you. But what, what did you learn the first time around that you're now, relearning or learning again in this, in this version? Or maybe just tell me what you know about why the first ones didn't work.

Okay, just to give you a little context on that. And I think, you know, this, your dad pretty much controlled me. Yeah. I let him control me. Yeah. Not verbally, but, you know. So I didn't fight. I didn't stand up for myself.

And that was his strategy. So he had to kind of run the show. Yeah.

So when we first traveled with the Ramseys. And I can remember Joe saying who is this woman. Where what's, this is not the woman.

I'm sorry. When you and Otis first traveled with the Ramseys. Yes. Because Joe knew you guys before he was. He was a friend of your first marriage.

Yes.

Okay. Yeah. We just need somebody to bring people up to speed because they're they're they're learning all this for the first time, but.

Okay, so.

Joe says Joe's out with you and Otis after having been with you and dad. Yes. And he says, who is this person? Right. Yeah. So who was it?

It was me. It was me being me. Yeah. And being able to say what I wanted to say and do what I wanted to do, and nobody was telling me not to.

Yeah.

So I was kind of like a free spirit. A new person to him.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've had that experience too, for sure. Because I was, I guess I was, I guess I was 23, four maybe. And you guys divorced? Can't quite remember, but I was I was old enough to have had, like, formed opinions about who each of you were. And then now, another lifetime later to see who you are. It's a marked difference for sure.

Okay. So I feel like it.

Yeah. And then what do you notice? What? What was the breakdown for the for your first relationship? I don't want to spend too much time here, but there's a juxtaposition, of course, between what you had and what you have, and I'm interested in that.

Well, the relationship was very similar to, your mother's, and that, my wife was a very, very controlling person, and, she was an adult child of an alcoholic. You know, just had to be in control of things. And, and she was really good at fixing cars. So,

She had to create it.

She would create chaos to be able to get in her comfort zone.

So when did you know that? When did you like sometimes I wonder, like when did you know that this was not going to work like you had to, what, 29 would you say 29 and 27 years.

Well, a defining moment was we were, we bought a house in Castle Rock, and, it was a fixer up. And I was being, assistant principal and athletic director and working for a very difficult person. And, the life was miserable, and I'd have to come home every day and go to work on the house and work until about 11 or 12:00, get up next day and go to work. And, so we finally got down to the kitchen and life was very chaotic and I made the statement, I said, you know, we've got either the kitchen to take care of or we can focus on our marriage. And and, and work on that. And, I said, what do you want to do? She said, that's the kitchen. That's made it very clear. Yeah.

Yeah. And that was, what, 20 years and 25, 27. Did you did you start breaking down.

20 or 2627?

So that was the beginning of the end.

Yeah.

Yeah. Did you have a defining moment, mom?

No. The defining moment that. That's because I put up with everything, you know. Yeah. Defining moment. There were many times that I thought that I would leave, and I would go and ask for the divorce. Yeah. And, of course, and his controlling way, he said, if you do something like that, you'll never see your children again. Never had anything. Yeah. How could you do that. You know, because I'm going to take everything. So I never really had a defining moment, but the defining moment was the day he came in and sat me down and said, I'm leaving.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That moment for me was, you know, he called and he talked to me about it. I mean, that call was less than three minutes, I think. And then you and I talked about it, and the next call I made was to Noah, who you both know, and I don't. I'm sure I've told you this story about. I said, Noah, guess what just happened? Because he was my roommate in college. He spent like four years with me, kind of in that first early adulthood, separate from being at home. I said, mom and dad are splitting up. He goes finally, that was the first word out of his mouth. And I was like, that's kind of how I feel. Yeah.

I don't know if I ever told you this, though. When I told JD you're right, but yes. And I hadn't told him that I wanted Maria to be there with me when I told them. So we were sitting at their kitchen table, and, I told him that, you know, L and I were at split and divorcing, and I asked him. I said, how do you feel? And he took a little bit, and he looked at me and he said, relieved.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wish we both had a different story of that guy, but he he made his bed. And, again, for context, for listeners, he's been gone now at 12 years or so. So, I found some peace around it. And you have found each other, which is cool. You've been in this relationship. Was highly controlling again for a little bit of context. You guys were friends because you worked in the same high school, which is the high school. I went to. And Otis was the was my sophomore year gym teacher. And then between sophomore year and junior year, became the assistant principal. And so then the last two years, you were kind of the, the athletic director, disciplinarian type. You were one of the most terrifying people on the planet.

I mean, in terms of just the the level of gravitas and severity and, like, no nonsense. I'm clocking in clock time out. And, you know, don't mess with Mr. Dowdy kind of thing. So when you guys started dating, I was pretty confused. I was like, what the heck is going on here? This Mr. Dowdy guy is hanging out with my mom, and I've got to be like, yes, sir. No, sir. How are you? You know what? Okay. What do you know? And I looking out for her because I think, you know, I don't want her to get into another relationship with a guy who's, you know, but somehow you're, like, the gentlest, kindest, like some behind the scenes sort of human. Again, for context, the only grandfather my kids have ever known. The Rebecca's dad died shortly. I mean, he only met them a couple times. Dad only met them a couple times. How do you. What is that about?

I, I had a mentor when I was in high school. The assistant principal was a guy that we were all terrified of.

Yeah.

And, he was quite an amazing athlete. In his youth. And, the more I got to know him, the more interesting he became. Just kind of like a sad story. My best friend and, a couple, his buddies, decided to skip school one time, and they went to went downtown and chapel. So they came back and they had to check in with him every morning. He took care of attendance as well. And, said, okay, where were you? Yeah. Where are you? Well, we we went downtown and shuttle, and then he gave them the stern look, you know, and he said, let me just check your attendance chair. So he looked at my best friend's attendance, and my best friend never missed a day of school in his life.

And his comment was, everybody needs a day off every now and then. Write them an excuse and send them on their way. So I admired the, the, the strictness and the controlling that he had, but he had a sense of humor, and he had, a presence with a lot of different kinds of people, had a heart, and occasionally he showed it. So he was my mentor, and I tried to pattern my, administrative career after that was maybe a little different than my physical education, teaching and coaching. Maybe not, but maybe so, I don't know.

I don't know, I just know that, like, I was kind of a scrawny kid and never quite measured up. And I was always, under, like I was never under. I was never at for fear. But like, when I was in these classes with these big athletic guys and I sort of was trying to figure out where I fit in and could I hang? And you're you're not a big guy. You're not. You're not very. Which is another kind of wild juxtaposition for my dad, who's a big, big man. But he but I was always impressed and noticed that, like, you didn't you didn't have the capacity to sort of back down from these know it all teenage like, buff athletes who were trying to prove themselves.

And you just had this really subtle kind of and still do this sort of subtle power that, I don't know, it always made an impression on me. So here you come and you start dating my mom, and I'm like, wow, is this going to go? So how did that go? How did the two of you decide to I mean, how do you how do you describe your origin story?

Well, when we first met, it was my first year at Cape Spring.

Yeah.

And the two of us shared study how we.

Hey, you're like a baby. You're, like, in your 20s. Maybe.

No. No, because I had both of, you know, in my 30s, because I'm like, okay, okay. So.

Okay. Spring. Yeah. Not your first year teaching, but your first year. Right?

Like, so we shared a struggle and he was the disciplinarian, and I was the role keeper and, you know, that kind of thing. But we talked a lot and we we liked each other. Like, he's the one that told me not to let you guys play football when you were little. So anyway.

Oh, thanks. Actually. Yeah. Thanks. I would have died. I'm. I'm quite sure, because, again, scrawny kid, I was, like, every time I thought about it, I was like, nope, I think I would die.

You. Yeah. And so he he encouraged me there. So anyway, we just became friends. We talked, but then years later, I never saw it. We might see each other in faculty meetings, but that was it. Because he was on one side of the building, I was on the other, and our path never crossed until he became an assistant principal. So he was the assistant principal and I was senior class sponsor, which made us have many interactions together. And we were also part of a team for high schools at work where we would go to conferences together. So that's when our relationship, our friendship really kind of blossomed. We, we started dancing together, and once we started dancing, it's like we've been dancing together our whole lives. We just kind of fit.

You started dance together while you're both still married?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we're still married. Yeah. We were, at these conferences.

Yeah.

And we would go out at night and we would dance together. But then once we got back to Roanoke, you know, we'd see each other at school.

Yeah.

But we became friends. Yeah. Even he and his wife had invited us over for dinner with the two of us, and she canceled at the last minute. I don't cancel, but you cancel. So we never did do that. But I just, I liked him. He had a good personality. He was fun to be with. So that's, that's probably the way it started. Yeah. And then after he split before we did.

Yeah I had separated from my wife probably for three years. And, just I wasn't interested in dating anybody. Yeah. I just needed, I need to decompress and, shortly after your dad left your mom, she called me, right?

Yeah.

I did, yeah, she called me and and and, pretty much. And a friend, you know, just, So let me know, you know, what she was going through and everything.

And here's my boss.

And so, a good friend relationship. Our conversation being supportive and that sort of thing. But that didn't open the door, really, for, in a further relationship between the two of us at that point and that.

I'm.

Just going to say something that I don't remember what it was that happens to me a lot these days. Yeah, that's right. But anyway, we became friends. Yeah. And so then after your dad left, I wanted to kind of do the house the way I wanted it, and he would help me. I remember I was away at the beach with my girlfriends and he and Adam. Yeah, were at the house and they were painting.

London. This is legendary.

Yeah. The splendor they were painting and what Adam did.

Adam tried out for a can of paint and spilled the full Cana paint. Oh man. On the carpet. And what insurance paid for new carpet.

Yeah, yeah. Not a bad.

Time. I didn't know that. But anyway, so he was helping me do things there to strip the wallpaper off of that. And so we we became friends. And then it got into, Well, Ramsay's called that we were non dating. Because we were hanging out. You were.

You were in a situationship.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess that was it. But then we started to date. Yeah. And kind of quickly kind of changes the relationship, you know. Yeah. I kind of thought, gee, I kind of let this man. But then I got cold feet after our visit to you, we had stopped in Harrisonburg for the night because we split it up. We left New York. I think we had all gone into New York together. You, Rebecca. And the two of us had gone to New York and we left from there.

Yeah.

And we're going through.

And that was the week to that we transitioned from Mr. Daddy to Otis.

Okay.

Yeah.

And I told him that night that I just couldn't do it. You know, it was just too, too much, too fast. I needed a break.

So I'm getting on board, and you're getting off board? Yeah.

Devastated him.

Yeah.

In fact, he went out and walked the streets of Harrisonburg.

Not quite as entertaining mayhaps, as the streets of New York.

That's true. Yeah, but Harrisburg, not Harrisonburg. Harrisburg area.

After we got back and maybe a day or two later, I called her and I said, listen, understand where you are. I know where I am, and I'll wait until you're ready. And, and then contact her anymore. She got back with me and the relationship began.

Yeah. How long was that.

After two.

And maybe.

Yeah. What'd you do. What would you, would you do for a month or two.

I didn't do anything, really. I went to the farm with the Ramseys.

Yeah.

They were a good place for me to settle. Yeah. That was a disaster of weekend. But anyway, for another reason. But I just took my time to think, you know what I wanted? And he was. He was checking off the boxes.

Yeah.

And. And what made me really decide is we went to Myrtle Beach to, Charlie Thomas, Maryland. They had a house down there that they would let us go to, and we went down there and we were there for a week, and it was so comfortable. The two of us have done things together. No arguing. It was just it was comfortable. It was. Yeah, it was really good. And that's when I really decided this is what I want.

Yeah, yeah. And you do you know what this is? I mean, of course it's him. But like when you say, this is what I want, what is this? And do you still have it?

Yeah. This is a peaceful relationship. It's a loving relationship. We, we balance each other out. We don't, we don't argue a lot. As we're aging, it's getting more, Or maybe my patience is. It's not as good as it used to be. I don't know that. I don't think it's as either. Yeah, but we we're in a loving relationship where we respect each other. And I guess you can say that that's what this is.

Yeah.

We early on. Yeah, I, I have to admit, I have a temper. Yeah. And usually when I get angry, it's about something that I've done. And, so. Okay, somewhere heard this and, and, shared it with her, and I said, okay, well, we, we've got, we've got to have a five minute rule. So for five minutes, you can be as mad as you want to be. But after five minutes you can stop and get over it. And early on and doing this thing usually after about two minutes or so I'd looked at her and she had just been looking at me and yeah, started laughing. And and I have had then occasions where I say, okay, this one, I, I need a little more in finance.

I would set a timer. And when the timer went off he had to get over it.

Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of wild. I mean again dad had a temper but he was always really big and loud and you could sort of kind of boundary less in that sense. I don't think a timer or whatever have worked in that setting. I don't know. Also though, that like, while I've experienced you, Otis's kind of grouchy or, like maybe, maybe angry. I don't think I've ever experienced your temper. Like, what happens to you when you get angry? Like when you when you say, I have a temper? What? You don't get big. You don't get loud. What do you get? Or do you.

It's it's an internal thing. Yeah. And, it's not the way it was when I was a young man. The temper created a lot of problems for me. Yeah, I get in a lot of fights.

Yeah.

And, and I then end up in situations where, other grace of God, you know, I didn't get locked up. I never I never got, incarcerated. But that was only because I didn't get caught. So, I mean, I just had this rage, and, I remember making a very conscious decision. I need to control this thing, or it's can be really problematic for me. And I think that, you know, my, my venue, my, my way to deal with it was athletics. And like in wrestling. Yeah I can go and and just be just not out of somebody and people patch on and say oh that's good.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so and football and you know I was, I was certainly not a large guy but I played like a big guy. Yeah. You know, I mean.

I believe that.

Just the way I was. And so this, this rage, this anger had an outlet that I found. And, and I use that all the time, like, when I was coaching, it was an outlet for me because there were it's a lot of stuff going on in my life that, needed to be. I needed to have an outlet.

Yeah. What would you say? Like, if if I can say. I have to admit I have a temper. And this sometimes gets in the way of how I show up. Certainly as a young person, maybe even in I need strategies as a, as an adult. Like, do you have your thing? Like, what would you say is your thing that keeps you from showing up as an adult or that you have to create strategies around as an adult?

That's not my temper because I don't have.

A no, you don't really have a temper. Yeah, I can tell you what I think it is, but I don't think you want to know.

Mine is my worst thing is procrastination.

Yeah.

Putting things off that I need to do. Yeah. I'm pretty good at that. And I'm like, he found a way to control his. There's no way. I have not found a way to control that procrastination. Yeah. Or to get over it.

Yeah. Is it cost you in relationships? Is it does it cost you in your relation, in your marriage?

Not this marriage. Sure. It in the other one, but not. Yeah, one. No, because I'll always come through at the end and get it done. But it, it does more to me internally. And I know that I got something to do and I don't want to do it. And I put it. How often.

Okay.

Well not be what you're looking for but.

Well I'm not really looking for anything. I thought maybe you would say and this is a question now I have is you know what it's like to be controlled. You understand what it's like to sort of give away your power for a long time. And I don't have this sense in this relationship that you're not being controlled, or rather, that you're being controlled. And I think some of that, of course, is Otis's personality. But is there is there something that you have found or something that you have done to sort of or actually like, what do you know about why or how you gave away your autonomy, your your ability to advocate for yourself, your agency and and how you got it back? But I know that's a kind of a thick question, but I'm interested to know, like how you reflect on the version of you that was willing to be controlled and then and now the version of you that isn't.

One thing I don't have to fight being control because he's not controlling. She's not he's giving me all my space to do what I want. In no time is he trying to control me. So it's not what I don't think I'm doing anything differently. But he's so much different than your father was. And there is not one piece of him that wants to control me.

Yeah.

He wants me and allows me to be who I want to be and do what I want to do.

And yeah.

That's, that's nice.

If you like this is you like is this year like I think that's how you started. You kind of go, I get to be me in this relationship. Whereas you didn't you didn't get to be you for whatever. Yes.

Yeah. No, but I do get to be who I am.

Yeah.

That our relationship is so strong.

Yeah. That.

Yeah, we allow one another a lot of freedom. For example, she she takes a lot of beach trips with her girlfriends and things like that. And I have no resentment about that whatsoever. And, and I'll do a golf trip and, or I'll, immerse myself into, you know, sports or whatever, and, and and she allows that. I mean, we're comfortable with that, and we really enjoy doing things together.

Yeah.

And it I enjoy her company. It, It's important.

That's the thing for me. Like, I think, you know, when I think about you guys are reflect out loud. People ask me, baby, like, what's going on? I, it's your friendship that's kind of how it started. And it had so much time to incubate in that space. And it's really persevered and and kind of driven the show. I guess what I'm wondering about is, like, did you get lucky? Did you make choices, or did you just happen to did you just happen to, like, be in the same building with this this person that that you resonated with, or did this come from some choice, conscious choice that you made toward one another or toward yourselves to have a different kind of relationship in your life?

Oh, I think both. Yeah, they they opportunity and, the presence that we had with one another was, was very fortunate. But you know, from that, very, very conscious decision that, that this this is comfortable. This is good. This is, this is healing.

Yeah.

And I think that both of us were were pretty wounded. And, and we understood that. Yeah. And, I think, you know, that's just been healthy for both of us.

Yeah.

That's, you remember your dad's friend Charlie?

Yes.

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Well.

We search for them or something.

You may have.

What was he married to?

Peggy.

Yeah. Charlie and Peggy.

And they had a son, Morgan.

Morgan. Low blind etiquette.

Well, yeah.

It's probably 30 to 45 years old.

Like. Yeah. But anyway,

This time happens just in case you didn't know. That's a thing. What happens? Time.

Okay. Anyway, we were there with them one night at their place for dinner and their conversations, you know, for, you know, how your dad was. So one of the conversations was, now, if you weren't married to your present spouse, is there anybody that would come to mind that you thought would be a good fit for you? And he came to my, never verbalized it.

Did you say that out loud?

No, we didn't verbalize it. That wasn't something that we we were to say, but they were just a thought provoking question. Yeah.

And fight taking questions were like, yeah, but.

Nobody said it out loud. But he did come to mind. Yeah. Because at that point I had been around him enough to know that he had a calm nature, that he was fun to be with. He, he got he was good for a laugh. Yeah. Just place it.

Yeah.

So that came to mind.

I think the story that I have, and I use it with clients all the time, to be honest, like the thing that dad said to you, you know, if you leave me, you'll never see the children again. I'll destroy it. It's like it's it's a trope. It's a cliche. It's not even real. It's just a thing that people learn how to say from TV or from their parents or from, you know, some divorce law show they saw somewhere or something. It's it's it's boring. But I hear it all the time, right? I hear my clients that are struggling, about like, oh, no, he said that. He said that stuff to me and, and I always I don't, I don't like, always talk about you guys, but I'm like, look, divorce isn't the worst thing in the world. Sometimes it's a it's the best thing.

Sometimes it's like, actually the thing that frees you up to be you. And it's been really edifying and encouraging to watch the two of you sort of discover your real marriage after you had your practice marriages, with these people that, you know, I also never shit on people's original marriage, like, you got you got two kids, you got two kids, and those kids need to exist on the planet like the world needs all four of us. And then you have ten grandchildren. The world needs all ten of them. And they don't exist without your first marriages, you know? And so I think it's actually, like. I like I'm I'm encouraged by. And your story helps me and my clients just to understand that, like, there is sort of life after divorce and, and that's not the theme or the even the main message of this episode.

But I love that you guys have found something in your 50s that you know is still really worth admiring and appreciating. So just so you know, like you guys have a a little little pocket of presence in my, in my day to day professional life.

Okay. And here's another thing. Yeah, I said that I knew that if I got old when I got old, yeah, I got all. But when I got old and needed to be taken care of, he would take care of me. It's not something I thought would happen with your dad, so I. I knew that he would take care of me and I knew that I would take care of him. But, that's another thing.

How's that going. Because I mean, again, I mean in particular for you, I just my again, my onboarding with you as a human was this really powerful, you know, an almost invincible kind of personality. And your body has your body has been given up. It's been kind of deciding, okay, 70 years, 75 years, you know, it's time to time to do other things, like what's that been like for you to up.

Yeah, yeah. Very difficult. You know, I still have, still have a goal to get back on the golf course. And, I'm working real hard at that, with, physical therapy, both, at therapy and here at home, you know, it's it's ever present. I went I went out and putted yesterday for about 15 minutes and, came home exhausted. And, so that was kind of like, okay, that's where I am right now. I've got this much more to do.

Yeah.

So it's, it's been difficult because, you know, being physical, being active and everything has been so much part of who I am. And, losing that as, as difficult. And fortunately, you know, I've got some other things that I enjoy doing that, it's kind of filling in the gap a little bit. And, so I think you have to look for those things, generate something other than just who you have been.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you how do you feel relative to this thing you're describing about taking care of each other? How's that? How's that going for you?

Okay. It's going fine. To take care of him. I've spent a lot of time taking care of him lately, and I don't regret it, and I don't on it, and I don't, you know what I want to do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really cool.

But he says I ask him too much how he is. How are you feeling? Yeah, I didn't do that too much.

I don't really believe in should, but. Okay, okay. Maybe it's just not the thing that you that worked for you both right now. How are you feeling today?

Hey. You talking to Otis?

Yeah.

Right now feel fine sitting down and no.

Pain sitting down. Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's, I've lived with pain now for, what, for years. And it's just a part of, my, my day. And you just go on, make the best of it, because it's not going to do any good to complain about it. It doesn't help. Yeah. It's, it's been a very humbling in a sense. It's it's, strengthened my, my spiritual life as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's been cool to watch you guys, continue to, take care of each other and model something like, just like just friendship. Friendship that leads to intimacy. And I think, you know, if there's anything I don't think, again, it's kind of the hope after divorce isn't going to be the the theme, but just to see you both thriving, it's really it's really cool. I'm really proud of you, mom.

Thank you.

Yeah.

I am too, because. Yeah, it's just like, is is so good now. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

And it's wild to be old enough to, like, have memories that are a lifetime ago. And in those memories, I'm a I'm an adult or you're an adult, right. Just thinking back to even 25 years ago, like I was an adult 25 years ago, I you know, I that's weird. So even another thing that I say to a lot of people is the idea of like raising kids feels really important when you're when your kids are five and ten and 15 years old. But the reality is we spend more time. You and I have spent more time as adults together than we did as you, being the adult and me being the child. And so, you know, just the idea of, like, watching you become an adult as I become an adult has been really wild and cool. So, anyway, I'm glad you made time to talk to me.

Do you have any you have any questions for me? The relationship expert? The the podcast host, the famous. I'm not famous, but, you know, while you've got me on the line, is there anything else that that that you need?

Well, what would you suggest that we do to strengthen our marriage?

Oh, geez. I don't know. I feel like at this point, me included, we have less time in front of us than we had behind us. And the thing to do is to pick is to, you know, not sweat the small stuff, pick your battles, you know, pick your battles, and then put some back and then and then put a few more back. And I think you guys are already like, really, really good at that. So I got no advice for the two of you.

Okay.

One, one of the things that we were or we were told that, remains very, very formal and their relationship is, be kind to one another. And, and I think that if, if I had a description really of our relationship probably just that would be that, that, we have learned to be very kind to one another.

Yeah. Well, you deserve it. I mean, especially if you spent a whole lot of time trying to figure out whether or not kindness was a thing you deserved or had access to. Like to lift it up as a priority, as you know. Certainly. Certainly a piece of wisdom. So I love you both. I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in a little while. I guess in a week or two after this episode comes out, which will come out on your anniversary. So happy anniversary. Okay. And, yeah, well, we'll, we'll look forward to sharing your story with the whole world. 7 billion people.

Just. Yeah, sure. That's how many us pretty popular.

Thank you, thank you. Very proud of you as well. And love you very much.

Okay.

Thanks. We. And I look forward to seeing you. We both look forward to seeing you soon.