Zach: So what do you got going on in the back seat there is that you’re like decoys so that you can go in the plane.

Paul: We’re actually, on a road trip headed to, Louisiana. Yeah. So we’re in around Austin right now, and.

Symone: What’s in the back is my hat. I put my hats on the on the headrest so that they don’t get smushed.

Paul: Yeah.

Zach: Well, this is a couple of. There’s a couple of firsts for me today. I’ve never had a, podcast from the car, so that’s exciting. And you live where.

Paul: We live in San Antonio.

Zach: Okay. And you’re headed to Louisiana?

Paul: Yes.

Zach: And you pulled over near Austin to talk to me?

Paul: Yes.

Symone: At some ramen.

Paul: This is less like a major production. Like we were in BestBuy for, like, two hours yesterday, looking through headphones and, you know, she almost bought a whole podcast that, I.

Zach: Right on.

Paul: So we could do this. Well, it’s we’re on, and it’s a pleasure to to just you to have it’s.

Symone: Yeah. It’s foreign to us. We were like, we went into the best buying. We saw a young guy and we were like, we need to do this thing where we need to put the two headphones together and we need to be able to talk at the same time and hear at the same time. And he’s like, oh, you just need to, you know, you need a splitter.

Symone: It’s almost like second nature to all the podcasters, but not to us.

Paul: Yeah.

Zach: So what do you what are you looking at? Are you looking at your laptop, your phone? You’re looking at your car, like, what’s going on iPad.

Paul: IPad. Right on the iPads, on the on the dashboard. This is.

Zach: I love it. I love it. Yeah. So the other first is Simon. You reached out to me. You’re like, hey, I heard you on on radio say that you want to talk to people. I’ll talk to you. That so that’s very kind. Thank you for doing that. But you guys are my first sort of listener interview. As a result of my desire to figure out what’s going on with the everyday couples in their everyday life.

Zach: So this is exciting for me.

Paul: Thank you. My goodness, who was I found? I found you, just randomly we we we listened to, you know, all kinds of stuff, podcasts, anything that we, that we feel can help us. And then we, we, we text each other links, you know, hey, listen to this or. Hey, listen to that. So I sent it to her.

Paul: I sent her to, I guess she liked it because. Because, you know, the next thing I know is like, hey, you want to do this thing? And I was like, what thing? I was like, what did you do?

Symone: I was curious. You were curious. And I got curious, too.

Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What made you curious? Like what? What are you working on as a couple? Like what? What is the what’s your what’s your thing that keeps you like trying to figure this whole thing out? You gave me a couple of hints in your first email and then in your, you know, like, but tell me, tell, tell me, tell us what what it is that you’re interested in.

Symone: As a couple. Yeah. So you want me to go?

Paul: This is this.

Zach: Is your time. This is your 15 minutes.

Symone: So. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we and we have a lot of conversations, like, you know, when you first walked in, we were talking. We were talking all the time together. So really our thing I would say is like we really just we’re curious and we talk and we ask questions. And a lot of that happens when we’re gardening and when we’re outside, and I call it when roots like playing, you know, and we just have a lot of good conversations.

Paul: And that’s kind of our neutral zone. Is the yard, you know, we garden, you know, we like flowers and plants and stuff and like working in the yard. So that’s, you know, if we if we’re arguing or if we have a difference of opinion, then it’s like, okay, you meet me outside and you know, no, we don’t argue there.

Paul: We don’t bring in the mess there. We just enjoy each other. Nine times out of ten, after about the first 30, 45 minutes, somebody says, the one thing we we do remind each other is like, I’m not sure. And, and, and that just kind of cools things down and puts things in perspective. And that was the first, podcast that I, that I heard, was you guys were discussing, you had a young lady on and you guys were discussing words and it was like, you know, hey, well, you know, my husband’s a narcissist, or my wife’s said no.

Paul: Right. Well, yeah. Labels and is like, hey, well, if that’s the case, then, you know, you need to lead this person. And so it’s like once we get to the, the, the. And that really struck me because we talk about that all the time. It’s like, you know, hey, something like, I’m that’s your enemy. Like I’m on your side.

Paul: And. Yeah. And when we can really, really focus on that, then it puts us in a, in a position to see. So that’s kind of our thing you know. And we don’t want a third marriage.

Zach: Because this is second marriage for each of you.

Paul: For each of us. Yeah. Yeah. And and, and like we don’t want to do that. Yeah. Like we don’t have to like, everything’s a choice. Right.

Zach: The headline of your email to me, someone was, there’s two kind of, I don’t want to call them, like, presenting problems, but two characteristics that that stand out. One is that your blended family. And when there’s there’s a pretty big, age difference between the two of you.

Symone: Yeah.

Paul: 20 years. Yeah. Yeah.

Symone: Yes.

Zach: Do you want to you want to tackle those in order. You do you have, do you have a, sort of an opening summary of what that is like for the two of you?

Symone: You know, it’s it’s interesting because I, when I was, like, reflecting on the questions that you were asking, I realized I didn’t speak anything about our age difference or how that affects us. And in a lot of ways, it really doesn’t affect us. It’s it’s like I’ve known him my whole life, you know, and and a 20 year age gap is, is a huge gap because he’s really old enough to be my dad.

Paul: Yeah.

Zach: But I like to be sure.

Symone: Yeah, yeah. Biologically, I mean, and I’m only 13 years older than his daughter. But, you know, the thing about us is that our parents are the same age he had. His parents had him very young. My mother had me and an older age. So we kind of had a similar way of being right up. Yeah. You know, your.

Zach: Parents generation was the same like they their cultural context was similar.

Paul: Yeah.

Symone: Yeah. Our fathers are actually very similar too. So it’s in personality. It really wasn’t a big deal, us being 20 years apart.

Zach: But then. Oh, have you been together?

Paul: Oh. So, three, two years. We’ve been married for, well, three years. So, yeah, we’ve kind of been together for, we were together for two, and we’ve been married four and then so three years we’ve been married for one, and we got married, bless them.

Symone: I guess we don’t really count it. I, like I say, we’ve been together for many lifetimes because it feels like we think they’re forever like it. It feels like I really met him again.

Paul: So I’m a teacher, and, I teach in an elementary school. I’m, behavior, special education behavior. Teacher. Okay, okay. And so I do the social emotional learning and all that. And so, her daughter goes to the school that I was teaching at. Okay.

Zach: This is this your origin story? Is this how you met?

Paul: Okay, yeah. This is how we met. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So. So I actually met, her daughter first, and, and and, so, I’m kind of a unicorn at that school, like, there’s only three men on the campus, and I’m the only black man on the. Okay. And so, you know, I kind of look out in awe.

Paul: I’m just kind of all the black kids are kind of just levitate. Gravitate to me.

Zach: Is it, is it like what’s the racial breakdown for black kids. Are they in the minority there, or is it a okay.

Paul: Yeah. Oh for sure. Yeah.

Symone: Yeah, yeah. In that in the neighborhood, it’s the whole demographics of the neighborhood is, you know, blacks are the minority. Okay.

Paul: Okay. So so yeah. So so her daughter just kind of, you know, oh, there’s someone that looks like me. Yeah. So yeah, every morning you know, get her out of the car for school and, you know, take her to the car, pick up and, and, I’d see her, you know, driving through, and, she started subbing at the school.

Paul: Okay. Teacher two yeah. So, yeah, she’s a teacher, too. As she started subbing at the school after her divorce. And so, I would just, you know, just follow her or, you know, down the hallway, you know, floating, you know? Yeah. It’s like, wow, she’s that’s.

Zach: Yeah, I get it. I mean, one thing about you, someone is both in your, in the photo that you that comes with your Google and then now your eyes right. Your eyes are gorgeous. Like.

Symone: Yeah I appreciate.

Zach: The hard to hard to miss them be like I’m well see whatever she’s looking at because.

Paul: Yeah of course. Yeah yeah yeah.

Zach: So okay, so you actually haven’t I mean, in terms of the age difference, you, you haven’t weathered what you will weather, which is the idea that you, you know, you Paul will a will get older.

Paul: Cause.

Zach: You know, like and the gap will but that’s okay that that happens and it’s, that happens in its own time. But right now it doesn’t. It’s notable that you filled out your, your survey and that wasn’t the big thing, right?

Symone: Not now. I mean his like.

Zach: Culturally, generationally you you feel very aligned.

Symone: Yeah. But but there are some things like like he’s experiencing more of his friends and family passing away, whereas I’m not because I’m only 35, I don’t that doesn’t happen very often. But he’s actually experiencing, you know, the loss of friends because they’re acknowledging our, you know, random heart attacks or.

Paul: It’s not I’m 52.

Zach: Like, you know, Russians don’t. Russia’s. Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, I’m 54. And so it’s not a surprise to say, hey, Charlie died yesterday. Yeah. You know, so yeah. For for 35 year old to just die, I mean, that would be a surprise. You know, there’s some there’s there’s some differences there, but I, I think, the where I am in my life stage, is perfect, for salmon because I’m at the legacy part where, you know, who I am matters and integrity and and safety and, you know, financial security, like, so that that’s perfect for, you know, someone that’s, you know, where she is right now because I, I, I’m those, those security things or with the stability is important to

Paul: me just as important as it is important to her. Whereas the average 35 year old, you know, just got out of the club, you know, is, you know, is is just that. Yeah. Yeah. So the.

Zach: Average 35 year old man.

Paul: Man man. Yeah, yeah.

Zach: The average 35 year old woman is like, okay, I’m about I’m ready to do ready for things.

Paul: Yeah yeah yeah.

Zach: Clock’s ticking, but okay. Tell me about your kids.

Symone: Can I start I love I, I have one daughter. If she’s the only one. Online. She she’s beautiful child. So well-rounded, a little hippie spirit. She she has this long, wavy hair that when she runs around, it just kind of flows everywhere. So she’s got this, like, mark on her, too, that when you can’t miss her, you know, she’s incredibly smart, incredibly kind.

Symone: She thought, oh my gosh, she’s humble and thoughtful. And I could go on and on and on. Elementary school, elementary. She’s going to go into fifth grade next year, but she’s learning eighth grade math. She’s brilliant. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. That’s all.

Paul: And so I have two. So my oldest, is 23. And she, Lila and and, you know, she’s my first and she’s a girl, so she does no wrong, like, yeah, I’ve never done anything wrong. And I’m never had a reason to tell her. No. So, you know, but, personally, like, she played volleyball, softball.

Paul: She went to Lehigh University on a volleyball scholarship. Full scholarship. Okay. And graduated from Lehigh for years, she was a, Kovid graduate. So she got an extra year of eligibility. And so as soon as she left, Lehigh, she went to Sam Houston and got her playing another year of volleyball and got her master’s and some. She’ll be graduating in August with her master’s, and already working, and so, yeah, that’s her.

Paul: And, my son Jacob, the great thing about our kids, our younger kids are they’re the same age.

Symone: Only a few months.

Paul: Only a few months apart. So Jacob’s ten? Yeah, he’s he’s also going to the fifth grade. Yeah.

Zach: Jacob and Lila.

Paul: Jacob and Lila. Yeah. Okay.

Zach: Yeah. Do Jacob and Lyla have the same mom?

Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she.

Zach: Had a giant gap between.

Paul: Yes.

Zach: I joined together.

Paul: I was married for 20, 22 years. Yeah.

Zach: So, yeah.

Symone: Different.

Zach: Okay. Wait, so you have, Lila is at school. Jacob’s at home, and then your daughter’s name is.

Symone: On them, and she’s. She goes between, my ex-husband, I can’t.

Paul: Yeah. You can’t go. Yeah, yeah.

Zach: Yeah, you have them at the same time. And then you have to break it sometimes.

Paul: And and sometimes.

Symone: Sometimes it depends. His schedule is a little different than mine. Mine is just one week on, one week off. And he’s fluctuating.

Paul: The traditional, you.

Symone: Know you.

Paul: Know what the courts and.

Symone: Yeah. So so yeah they sometimes we have weekends off. So this is a great week. We we’re off. We don’t.

Paul: Yeah. No kids.

Zach: Yeah I mean I never won a cell. It’s a tough one. I’m never like man that sounds pretty great. It’d be like parents part time. And you got like like exceed them part time. Like, that’s, I could get into that, but I never want to, like, be, like, maybe you should try divorce and co-parenting because then you get it.

Paul: But you get time off.

Symone: Within a marriage. You can still have time off within. And sure.

Zach: Sure, sure, sure, sure. Although we never did, we were, I don’t know, we were late to the train. We were back and I went to, Ireland about a year and a half ago. We took ten days, and it was the first time that we had took extended time away from our kids together. I mean, we’d done it overnight here and there, maybe, like, a little, like, go to a wedding or something.

Zach: But in terms of, like, actually getting away and farming our kids out. But they were I mean, my minor.

Symone: That’s what I say.

Paul: Okay.

Symone: So okay. Okay. And so I was and you only have the two.

Zach: I have two girls. Yeah.

Paul: Okay. Yeah. We actually put it on the calendar like we identify, the days that we had no kids. Yeah, sure. And so and we plan stuff, you know, like, you know, we joke, but we, we say all the time, like, you know, I know you got a kid, but. And I just want to be with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zach: The hardest thing I do in my practice is help couples with their blended family. Blended families are really, really hard.

Paul: Oh my God.

Zach: And.

Paul: It’s not been easy.

Zach: Yeah, I want to hear about it. I want to hear about it. Because it seems like you have found a little bit of a rhythm, and you have clearly have a lot of affinity for one another. But, you know, loyalties are tested and, you know, priorities are changing and there’s coming and going and there’s, you know, and I just, you know, when people get into it and they have to start talking about my kid versus your kid and yeah, other stuff like, I’m interested to know how you guys have weathered that, like what’s your perspective on it and how do you what’s been hard what’s what, what solutions have you found?

Zach: I know that’s a ton of things that I’m asking. It wants to talk to me about your experience of particularly with the two that are the same age, like how do you how do you navigate the ups and downs of that.

Symone: Yeah, it’s it’s it’s tough in in some ways, but it’s also great in others. The, the tough thing I think is because we don’t have, Jacob as frequently as we have online, the expectations and the understandings of how things run in our household are constantly new to him. And so there’s always this, like, teaching experience that we have to go through with him.

Symone: And, and so like, we’ll get him on a Tuesday and then maybe we’ll get him that one day, and then we get him the following weekend for the two days. That’s just not enough time, really, for us to be able to hone in on things that we’re doing in the household that make our lives a little bit more cohesive.

Symone: And so it’s just there’s a lot of bumping heads in that regard. And for me, as a, as a woman, I think there’s this idea that you’re supposed to and this might be hard to say, but I think I should say it because I think really I think it’s important people don’t want to be honest about this.

Symone: Because it’s hard to say. But the reality is, is it’s hard to bond with another child that is not your biological child. At least for me. For some women, it comes natural and easy. But for for some of us, it’s a real learning curve. And so I think when it comes to like, understanding him, it’s taking me a little, a little bit of time, especially since we don’t have him as much.

Symone: But, it’s been a really big adjustment. But I do I do see in the future that we, we will have a good, relationship, but right now it’s a little iffy. Like, I’m not.

Paul: Well, it’s kind of weird just to kind of give you a perspective. So a lot rides. The, the, the other partner’s relationship with the other parent.

Zach: So some, some mones relationship with your ex-wife.

Paul: Or my relationship with my ex-wife. Okay. You know, not even Samoan. Okay.

Symone: The unit, like. Yeah, as a unit, our relationship with her. Really?

Zach: You’re not really a unit of four. You’re like a unit of 18 or something. Or eight or.

Paul: Well, you should be. Yeah, yeah, but it’s just not. It’s just not built that way. So, you know, if if I, if I don’t have a great relationship with the other parent, then someone automatically does her job like she’s, she’s the watchdog. Like like I’m the protector, but she’s the eyes like she, you know, the the the woman sees things that, you know, men just don’t see.

Paul: We’re not looking. And so she’s the protector. So she’s always on guard. And so then when you think of someone coming from quote unquote, enemy territory into the bunker with you, even though it’s a child, it’s still a, you know, it’s just a natural thing to, to to wonder. Like, and what’s coming from there. Yeah. I mean, it’s just trust it just, it’s, it’s just trust, you know, and, and so that kind of puts sometimes it puts, puts me in a position where I’m, I’m fighting for for both sides, you know.

Paul: But that’s the reality of it. But what I do know is that someone has great intentions, and, Jacob’s a good kid, so that relationship’s going to work itself out without my interference. Because in the beginning, I’m. I’m trying to be the interference, you know? And. Jacob, are you okay? Babe, are you okay? Like, what do you guys need?

Paul: Well, maybe you guys ought to do, you know, and he’s. I’m just ripping it up, you know? Yeah. And so I just had to let it go.

Symone: Him and I tend to gravitate towards each other when a pivotal moment is about to happen. And there’s a lesson to be learned. Him and you’ll find a solution.

Zach: Or, Simeon and.

Paul: Jacob in similar Simeon.

Symone: And me. Smart. And I say no. Yeah. Jacob and I.

Paul: End up on the front.

Symone: Porch. On the front porch, maybe talking about something really deep that happened that he may need to, you know, sort sort through, and, and that’s how I kind of show up is as a counsel for him if he needs it, you know, and and that’s where I feel most comfortable, you know, right now.

Zach: On the front porch, one on one, you know, tapping into, like, the still small moment, you know, listen to what you said is like, okay, I’m gonna I’m going to hang on to this for a long time. But this idea that Simon has good intentions and Jacob’s a good kid, it’s going to it’s going to get they’re going to get there.

Zach: You know. It’s got.

Paul: To. Yeah.

Zach: Well I mean but and the way it and it needs to take its own process if you intervene, if you, if you step in, you may interrupt the good intentions opportunity to connect with the good kid and slow it down and make it bump. You know, make it, I don’t know, not just not give it some chance to breathe like I.

Zach: I think that’s so rich. That’s a rich.

Paul: I do that a lot as well.

Zach: You step in.

Paul: Yeah. But but I’m, I’m just I’m the circle back king. Right. So and she’ll tell you like, you know, I’ll fuck it up on the first run. But I’m always I promise her that I’m always going to acknowledge where, you know, I missed. And, and I’m going to always circle back, you know, and acknowledge where, you know, acknowledge my part in, in every, in everything.

Paul: And that’s and that’s the key. I mean, is that pause and and to look back and see only you, you know what I mean? Like if you if I were to block out everything that came from her prior to me feeling a certain way and just deal with me, then I want to find something and, and I and I’m always going to circle back and we’re going to meet outside, you know, on the front porch.

Paul: Yeah. It’s hard, you know, to to to humble yourself. But at 54 likes. Yeah. Not. Yeah. Yeah.

Zach: I, I, I’ve been saying this is my new thing. I latch onto these phrases that I use a lot, and, I just repeat them over and over again. But my one of the things I’m saying right now is, man, the older I get, the more I realize you got to pick your battles. Yeah. And then when you pick them, you got to put a few back.

Paul: Of course.

Zach: And then once you put a few back, you, you just put a few more back.

Paul: And then just shut the fuck up. Yeah, yeah.

Zach: Like, who cares, man, I’m too old to do it. This baloney. You know,

Symone: I.

Zach: Someone I want to go back to this thing, though, and just hear how you how you’ve worked through this, the thing that you named, which is it’s really hard to bond with somebody else’s kid, like, what are you what have you done? Or what are you doing to, address that thing that you’ve drawn attention to? What’s what’s worked?

Zach: What hasn’t worked? Like, what’s the for sure?

Symone: I know what hasn’t worked and what hasn’t worked is like, sure, I’m. I can be really intense, you know, and, I, I don’t know, people. Yeah, I am a little. Yeah. But that has nothing to do with like.

Paul: Gotcha, gotcha.

Symone: I think that I’m just an intense person. And so when I’m really passionate about, seeing the change in behavior of someone, especially when I know they have the potential, like, I’m, I’m an administrator. I’m a teacher. Yeah, yeah. Hey. Do you. Yes. You can do this. So when I, when I see people fall short of that, it just like, come on, you know, and that intensity comes.

Symone: And I think that scares some people. Yeah. And so I as, even as a, as a school leader, I’m learning to dial that back a bit. And so even in my therapy, my personal therapy, my therapist, you know, tells me to learn to self-regulate, and check in with my emotions. And I have a feelings wheel that I have all over the house, and even at work to just sort of remind me to pause before I react, because sometimes, I can get right into it and go on and on, or, and it could be really intense in a good way or in a bad way.

Symone: And so pausing is, is kind of what helps me to, not react so quickly. And, and it gives me some room to have some compassion for him, especially when he does things that might be annoying, like a regular ten year old. Like my daughter would do the same thing and it would be just as annoying. But when it’s someone else’s child, it’s ten times more annoying.

Symone: You know, and so I have to really learn to, to, to check in with compassion a little bit more. Yeah.

Zach: Do you have a, do you have a like a hip pocket definition of compassion. You both kind of, you both kind of went oh yeah. This is the word. But like what does that word mean to you.

Paul: Well you know we were we were talking about that. Yes. Wasn’t this more.

Symone: Yeah.

Paul: Like two days ago. Yeah. And it kind of led back to, a conversation that, that we heard on one of your shows, where everywhere. Like, I’m a, I’m a, I’m a behavior teacher. I’m at a title one school. I’m dealing with, you know, words to the words to the words. And it’s not their fault.

Paul: So, it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s like so we hear, empathy. Empathy empathy and. And like, I think I heard you guys say like that. That’s not always like the word like that’s not what we’re it’s because empathy puts us in a whole nother position. So it’s then and then you mentioned compassion and that’s what.

Paul: And that’s what, we, we, we always say like, be considerate, be compassionate. With with me. You know, that’s I hope that,

Symone: Well, yeah. And and actually, like, so I used to teach dyslexia and we would take words and break them down into each little component, and I, I would, I would like to sit and try to figure that out right now, but I don’t want to do that because I think that’s too much. But, I know that part of that word is, is, to join together or to come together.

Symone: Yeah. And so really, it’s just a another level of connection with other people, like, and maybe compassionate for one person for, for someone might look different for someone else, but it really is just an effort to be connected to that person in some way. And, and in order to really understand or deepen your understanding for them. That’s kind of what I would see is compassion, you know, broad in a broad sense.

Paul: Yeah. It’s just a different, I think compassion comes with vulnerable vulnerability, on both sides. Like, you know, I’m going to bed. We talked about that during the drive. I’m in a better position to be compassionate when. When you’re vulnerable with me, when you’re telling me how you’re feeling and where it’s coming from and when you’re not throwing it to me, like we we talk about all the time.

Paul: What’s yours and what’s mine, you know, and you know, everybody has trauma, but I can’t give you my trauma. Like, I can’t blame that on you just because you’re triggering me. Well, and it’s triggering because of something that somebody else did, so I can’t put that on. And so that’s where that compassion comes in. Like I’m taking the blame off of everybody.

Paul: And I’m like, babe, I know, like what? You know me. That’s compassion. And how can I help? You know, what.

Symone: Do you think? What do you. Yeah. What is your idea of compassion?

Zach: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I, I mean, I think for me that this started and what you’re referencing is that there’s a, therapist and researcher I like. Her name is Sarah Nassar Zada. And she is a guy who sort of put this juxtaposition of empathy and compassion on the table and said, empathy is not the goal.

Zach: Compassion is the goal. And it’s something like not trying to understand what somebody feels.

Paul: Right.

Zach: Or feel what they’re feeling, but to really care proactively can.

Paul: Yeah.

Zach: For them in their distress or in their feeling, from a position of strength and humility and grace, I think like is is what she’s arguing and I’m and I guess I’ve just been playing with it a lot. I also, I want things to make sense. So, I, I, I you’ve already said a couple of things that I have, like strong feelings about their words that start with C, so, like, curiosity is a big one, right?

Zach: Compassion is a big connection is a big one. Conscientiousness. You said another one a little bit earlier, but my brain is already writing a book about the seven seas that you need to. But if I’m going to do that, I have to understand what compassion, for example, means to people.

Paul: So my big thing is curiosity over judgment. Yeah.

Zach: Yeah. Well, I think curiosity over certainty. Right. Because certainty is a killer. As soon as you say, I know exactly what this is about. I know exactly what’s happening here. I know exactly what you’re going to say. It’s over. You know.

Symone: You drawn a line.

Paul: Yeah.

Symone: Yeah.

Paul: Well, yeah, I like that.

Symone: Question for you. Yeah, go for it. Because you talked about compassion. And yesterday something kind of came to me, like when you think about asking for forgiveness from other, and what’s the word that, you know, when you. Well, I don’t know, there’s a word for it, but when you’re, when you’re asking for forgiveness from other people, how do you feel about giving that giving that grace towards other people, having that that I guess grace and compassion is different.

Paul: But so it’s like, how do you how do you forgive someone, give them, you know, grace and forgive when you when you can’t let it go? Like, you know what I mean? Like, you’re still pissed, but you, like, I forgive you and.

Symone: And even just or even that person’s accountability.

Paul: Like. Yeah.

Symone: When I count ability for something and they say I take accountability, I’ve done something wrong. And on the other end, you do, something is going on. Like, curious to know how you feel about that dynamic? Yeah. You know, what do you what do you think.

Zach: My favorite definition of forgiveness is? Giving up hope for a different past.

Symone: Okay.

Zach: Yeah.

Symone: So can you say that? I say, well.

Zach: The reason, like, the thing about forgiveness that’s so hard is that we’re pretty committed to the past. Like, this is how it’s going to be. This is what the you did. This is the thing that you did this. Maybe even who you are. This is, this is the consequences of the choices that have happened. And if you become, like, super committed to that, you’re you’re locked in, like, it’s really hard to let go or forget or move on or even trust the, the future.

Zach: So if you’re going to forgive, you have to kind of give up hope for a different past. The past is what it is and it happened. It should be inform us. We should be curious about it. But it should give us,

Paul: It says certainty again. Yeah.

Zach: Well, it should just be part of wisdom, right? Wisdom is saying, okay, knowing what I know now, this is this is how I’m going to operate. I’m not going to just give you carte blanche opportunity to wound me again. True. Right. So I’m going to protect my self in ways that are important to protect myself, of course. But because I want to stay in relationship with you, I’m going to have to believe in a different future, you know?

Symone: Yeah.

Paul: That’s it.

Zach: Here’s the reality about forgiveness, too. Honestly, you don’t have to do it if you’re not going to stay in relationship with somebody.

Paul: Zach If you’re not because because you can just be like yeah that guy, that guy who you know from middle school who and I was my bully. I don’t forgive that guy. I’m never going to see him again. Like but the reality is that that hanging on to my resentment for him like, like, what good is that? Do I mean, so I don’t have to forgive him, but it’s I also don’t need to hang on to my resolve let because.

Zach: Yeah, that doesn’t do anything for me. It’s sort of. So I’m kind of on the practical side of a lot of these kind of forgiveness conversations, because if my wife, for example, I want to stay in relationship with her, I got to generate some partners hope, hope for the future. You know?

Paul: Yeah, we say that because, yeah, even.

Symone: In therapy, I mean, our I know one of the questions was about, our experience in therapy, I, I think I’ve gotten to a point in my life now where I have to say, just because I’m upset about something doesn’t mean I have to leave.

Paul: Yeah.

Symone: Doesn’t mean the relationship’s over and then I have to. Fine. I have to start all over to find somebody new. Just because this one thing is wrong, like, I mean.

Paul: A bad that’s the generational deal. Why like you know you know millennial. Right.

Symone: So I’m, I’m, you know.

Paul: You’re the millennial. Yeah. So they’re, you know, built up and what are.

Zach: We, we’re Gen X or.

Paul: Something. We’re Gen X okay. Yeah okay. And so, so like I’m latchkey, you know. Yeah. I, I’m built. I mean, it’s.

Zach: Not, it’s not strictly by the definition of a lazy kid, but. Yeah, I had a lot of independence, and.

Paul: Mom wasn’t going to pay a babysitter. Yeah, yeah, it’s, it is what it is. And so, like, we were built to survive certain things where, you know, this generation has no resilience. Like. And it’s like, I don’t like it. Go ahead. I don’t go ahead and do that and so on. But. Oh yeah. And that’s and that’s what you get.

Symone: Well, and I, I, I can be upset about it. But he’s not wrong like it is true. We, we’ve been entitled to a point where we’re like, I don’t have to be unhappy at work. So yeah, I’m not going to work.

Zach: Yeah, totally. You know. Yeah. And it’s worse. It’s worse for our 22 year olds.

Paul: Of course.

Symone: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Paul: We talked about.

Symone: That leave when I was the same. I think about that all the time.

Paul: When they call it failure to launch. I’m I’m, I’m, I’m working on my master’s in counseling now. Yeah.

Zach: Mine has my my 22 year old has her first. She just graduated from SMU actually. So she was in Dallas and she, and she’s got her first job right now. She’s at Summer camp. It’s not going great. She’s like, I’m about to put in my two weeks notice. I’m like.

Paul: What is okay?

Zach: I’m like, you’re at summer camp. You’re talking about you making $500 a week. You know, you’re just you’re hanging out with frogs and, you know, like, don’t. Teach in Shakespeare. I’m like.

Symone: Oh, chill out. Yeah. This is.

Zach: But I can’t say that. We can’t say that to her. Like, you got to listen. I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but this is, something I’ve had to learn is in my life, I’ve never once learned anything ever in my life before. I was ready to learn it.

Paul: Yep.

Zach: So, yeah, I’m trying to teach something to a 22 year old or a 35 year old, and I have to just make room for it. You learn it when you’re ready. I never learned anything before I was ready, so I can’t. I can’t make.

Paul: It here to catch.

Zach: Yeah, I’ll be here.

Paul: Yeah, but you know it. But the knowing is the like, Well, I learned is to understand this. And she does understand that she’s 23 years old. And when I was 23, I had a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zach: Me too. But we got married. I think we were 23 and 24. And I think about that now. I think about Abby, who’s 22, and I’m like, man, I hope she doesn’t get married next year because she.

Symone: I know.

Zach: She doesn’t know shit about shit and you don’t know anything. Know. And I was like, we’ve had everything, Rebecca. I know about marriage. You’ve learned on the job. And I’m like, I wish I had lot more practice beforehand.

Symone: So. Well, now I’m after after the second round, I think I feel the same way. Like there’s a lot I could have waited on. Yeah, you know, if I was, if I was a little older, I think I want to make different decisions.

Zach: Well, you guys are a delight. I really enjoy talking to you. I’m so glad that you pulled over on the side of the road to give me an hour of your attention.

Paul: Thank you. And, for having us. It’s it’s it’s a it’s an awesome experience.