Shannon Curry: I did, well, I love your brain. I just love how smart you are. It’s rare.

Zach Brittle: thanks. We should have you on the podcast more often to tell me how smart I am. Where did you go to college? You’ve told me before.

Shannon Curry: Hahaha ⁓ ⁓ I started at Georgetown, then I dropped out, then I went to community college for four years, then I transferred into University of California Irvine.

Zach Brittle: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, right on. How long were you at Yeah. My brother-in-law went to Georgetown. ⁓

Shannon Curry: See you. You know, it’s such an awesome university and I think for a long time, yeah, it’s not an actual Ivy. That connotation of, yeah. It is such a cool university and there are professors there that are just some of the most brilliant, ⁓ fascinating, accomplished, highly engaged in governance and ⁓ just incredible people teaching there.

Zach Brittle: not a traditional ivy though right it’s not an ivy but it has like this like ivy yeah yeah yeah Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: I was studying medicine though at that time, I was pre-med and it’s not a great fit. mean, if you go through their nursing program, which I did, it’s phenomenal for pre-med because you’re getting hands-on, basically practical medical exposure, even in your undergrad, which is usually unheard of. That was awesome, but it was very ⁓ kind of East Coast old money.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm, sure.

Shannon Curry: And I had been at an East Coast boarding school with a lot of rich kids, but I didn’t realize they were rich because we were all such fuck-ups. And it was just a bunch of rebellious kids, a lot of them from old money on the East Coast, but I really was blind to it. I didn’t get

Zach Brittle: Mmm. Did you listen to yourself on the podcast?

Shannon Curry: No, I didn’t. I never do. I can’t stand it. Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Yeah, yeah. Well, you spent the last hour talking all about your husband. I would think that you would want to check up or at least let him… Yeah.

Shannon Curry: Well, I’ll look at it when it’s good, like when it’s ready. Honestly, I’m going to tell you the truth. I don’t remember getting it. And you probably did send me a link and I didn’t look at it. Or I can, ⁓ today? ⁓ I.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. it’s on the internet. It’s like out there. It’s like going. No, the first one came out two weeks ago. The second one came out this week and that this one will come out next week. yeah, no, you’re all over the, you’re like famous now.

Shannon Curry: I had no idea. Wait, did you guys do the collaboration

Zach Brittle: I have to send it to you.

Shannon Curry: Wait, no, I did. I did. I went to her website and I started it and I got distracted. So I actually never watched it.

Zach Brittle: You’re fine. Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s part for the course. Yeah. Yeah. Right on.

Shannon Curry: Med should kick in any moment now. I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry.

Zach Brittle: It’s okay. I’m running like crazy today myself. ⁓ what’s that? ⁓ had a bunch of meetings, talked to one of your colleagues this morning cause we share a client and that was, ⁓ that was fun. She seems like good people. ⁓ and I always love knowing that my clients are in good hands. ⁓ which is fun. It just means like, okay, I can like, you know, you’ve had this experience, I’m sure where people come to me and they go, well, my

Shannon Curry: Okay, what are you up to today? What are you up to today? Yep. I know what mean.

Zach Brittle: My individual therapist thinks blah blah blah blah blah and I’m like, man, I need to have a talk with that guy.

Shannon Curry: I wish I could say I’ve never had that experience, I’m becoming more and more of a crusader and more more reactive to things like that. I’m just getting jaded.

Zach Brittle: What do you think about, there’s lots of different theories, but what do you think about people being in couples therapy and individual therapy at the same time?

Shannon Curry: I think that’s great. ⁓ actually think that’s, look, here’s the thing. If you’re practicing a really solid evidence-based research couples therapy method, for instance, the Gottman method, ⁓ one of the things I love about the Gottman method, it is probably the most research substantiated, I think, therapy that we have these days, like the most heavily researched happens to be for couples.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: And I use it with couples with substance use issues, with couples, service members, with PTSD, et cetera. I find that the relationship itself can be one of the, I mean, we all know this. It’s one of the most powerful teachers in life, right? So if you have a really structured, effective couples therapy method where you’re using the interactions with your partner and the emotional vulnerabilities you’re exploring, like that one exercise, what emotion did you feel at that time?

Zach Brittle: Yeah.

Shannon Curry: rewind the video in your head, land on time when you remember experiencing a similar set of emotions. And that’s where you get, I mean, some of the best individual work I’ve done myself, I will say, is using that exercise in my own relationship with our own couples therapist and realizing, holy shit, I am really sensitive to that. And I subtly saw all sorts of interactions I was having differently. where this, I had this long route, I had this vulnerability from my own childhood experiences. And I just, it was such an efficient way to identify that little wound that was getting in the way of certain decision-making and reactions. And it was just irrational, but it was so subtle. And it was the relationship, my partnership that actually showed me what a big problem it was, because it was coming out in fights. If you’re doing something like that, I think it can be incredibly powerful individually. A lot of my clients, though, they’ve been working with individual therapists. If I have a client, for instance, here’s when I think it can be really helpful for them to do individual therapy. If I’m doing Gottman method with a couple and we’re doing all of that existential type self-awareness exploration in the context of working through conflicts they’ve had. But let’s say I have a client who has anxiety disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, clinical, diagnosable, and she really needs to be doing a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy to tackle some of those worry thoughts that are outside of the relationship and just kind of, it’s fantastic if she’s working with a solid clinician who is really competent in that specific area and is also minding their scope of practice. That’s fantastic.

Zach Brittle: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: ⁓ Sometimes I think it’s problematic though, because the individual clinician might, might, not all of them, but might ⁓ have some takes on how the couples therapy is going or on the spouse. I find it really problematic when an individual therapist ⁓ is saying something like ⁓ that my client partner who I am also working with is a narcissist or something without even truly understanding it seems like.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: the diagnostic criteria of a label like that. ⁓ And then it can be really, I mean, I wouldn’t necessarily be working with the couple if that were the case and if that had come up in the assessment. So I think where that becomes problematic is if they haven’t consulted with me and they’re reaching that conclusion without sufficient information and then it’s actually interfering in the therapy because it’s.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: my client really trusts their individual therapist. And when they come into the couples session, it’s almost like I can tell they’ve had a session that week because they are just not giving their partner the benefit of the doubt. That’s problematic. And I think one thing that’s important for the public to know is that in couples therapy, it is our duty to do a really comprehensive assessment before we start. And we look for clinical issues that may be problematic. for the couples therapy process. And we have to really consider that before we delve in. So that is stuff that I would like more individual therapists to be cautious about and potentially consult or collaborate if they have that concern before necessarily expressing it.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Interesting. Do you, probably have thoughts too on the whole thing? This isn’t where I thought I was going to go today or where we were going to go today, but do you probably have thoughts right now on kind of the, prevalence of this idea of narcissism, like my husband’s a narcissist or there’s narcissism or that guy’s in our, like, you know, what do you, like, how do you, how do you parse that at the kind of like the, okay. I mean,

Shannon Curry: You Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Again, I’m imagining you have thoughts about it. What are they?

Shannon Curry: I’m imagining you have thoughts about it and I’d love to know what they are, because I’m also imagining we’re probably pretty aligned. I don’t like sloppy diagnostics. And I understand that sometimes clinical nomenclature, nomenclature, this is the thing about me. Yeah, say it, I read it, I hear it in my head or I never hear it in my head. I just understand what it looks like.

Zach Brittle: You got both vowels wrong. That’s impressive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Curry: And then when I’m trying it out, can be real rough.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Yeah. Do want to try it? It’s nomenclature. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Curry: How does it sound? But correct me right now so I can imprint this. Nomenclature, that’s it. That’s it. Nomenclature. All right, so when the clinical nomenclature is being ⁓ just sort of tossed around, I understand that it can serve a purpose in terms of kind of having a shared collective lay meaning. ⁓ However, it’s become like the harshest insult, right?

Zach Brittle: Yep. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: It fundamentally is misunderstood, I think, in the public. And I really get concerned when I see clinicians misuse it, particularly in social media forums and public forums. ⁓ It is not that common, guys. We’re talking like 2 % of the population. ⁓ well, when narcissism, mean, studies have actually ranged from like, is it up to 10 %?

Zach Brittle: Hmm. So how do you know? Like how do you…

Shannon Curry: But that being said, ⁓ these are really nuanced things and a clinician wouldn’t give that diagnosis without a lot of careful consideration of data from multiple sources. So we should not just be throwing that term around because of an inkling. That’s my feeling on it.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what do I do if I suspect that my partner is a narcissist? I don’t suspect that Rebecca is a narcissist, but…

Shannon Curry: Good, good clarification. ⁓ I mean, look, that’s a loaded question because if your partner truly has traits of narcissistic personality disorder, then you may actually be experiencing abuse, right? You may actually be experiencing some very problematic, harmful dynamics, ⁓ demeaning, disrespect, ⁓ not just criticism, but also contempt, name calling.

Zach Brittle: Sidebar. Hmm.

Shannon Curry: manipulation, coercive control, jealous rages, So it’s not so much, I guess I would say, what are you going through, right? Let’s focus less on your partner. Let’s focus on how you’re doing. Is this working for your relationship? Is this working for you? ⁓ Do you feel good? Is your partner, ⁓ you know, do you want to work on this relationship? What would you need to feel safe, to feel comfortable, to feel confident?

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Curry: from your partner, and then I would probably suss apart, like, let’s get realistic. Are these things that are genuinely within your control or are you basing your happiness on someone else, right? It’s a slippery slope. Like, are we saying that our partner needs to act a certain way to make us happy versus are we fundamentally in a situation where our needs and our rights, our individual rights and our dignity aren’t being respected?

Zach Brittle: Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I think like if I have a take on it, I… This is, this will sound like really maybe harsh or dismissive, but I’m like, does it matter? what matters is are you safe and sane in your And if you’re not, then…

Shannon Curry: No. Exactly, Yes.

Zach Brittle: what moves do you have to make or what news do you have to invite them to make and whether or not they they can make those moves is really I don’t know it’s to be seen I guess the other one of course that everybody wants to talk about is gaslighting this gaslighting me all the time I was gaslighting me all the time what do you think about what do you think about gaslighting

Shannon Curry: Well said. Haha. I’m laughing because I have a client I really love. has autism and ⁓ he’s really witty, very bright guy. And if he’ll ask me like a definition of something, I know he thinks it’s sus. He’ll be like, what is gaslighting? And it’s almost, there’s like a childlike curiosity in it, right? He’s bringing it up because he heard it. It doesn’t make concrete sense to him. Some of them seems off. He’s got a major bullshit detector. He wants to get my take. I love it.

Zach Brittle: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Curry: And that’s one of those words he brought up. ⁓ You know, it’s not an actual clinical term. There’s no set definition for what gasulating, yes, there’s no set agreed upon definition for what gasulating is, right? I think same things with terms like codependence, which has no real research support. So a lot of these terms ⁓ that get thrown away and pop

Zach Brittle: Yeah, of course. It’s all over the place right now. Yeah. It’s a literary term. Let’s talk about codependency too, but we’ll finish gas lighting first.

Shannon Curry: culture or thrown around in pop culture that really have no agreed upon meaning. sure, I mean, I have my own interpretation of what I think it means. But again, I think we get really stuck with labels and assuming that it means something when really, if you dig a little deeper, a lot of times people are talking about something really different.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure, yeah. Okay, so what do you think it is? Like when you hear it or when you use it or when you hear clients use it, what is your base assumption?

Shannon Curry: I would say that my general, my personal definition, okay, not clinical, is, or interpretation would be that ⁓ something that you are perceiving that is valid and based on facts, based on objective, realistic facts, ⁓ you’re trying to, somebody is trying to talk you out of what is actually true to evade responsibility. That would be my perception of, I think, what it’s used.

Zach Brittle: Okay, sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: most frequently to mean. But if somebody is saying that to me in a clinical setting, I’m going to ask, tell me more, what do you mean by that? me an example so I can figure out what do we do next.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is a Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a pretty, it’s a pretty gentle definition. and, ⁓ I don’t think it actually applies. don’t think it qualifies as gaslighting, at least in terms of the way that that phrase was originated, which, which comes from, with a fair bit of malice. It’s not just that I’m trying to get you to, to think like the thing that you think is factual. I’m trying to tell you isn’t factual. Cause you said out of a failure of taking responsibility in, in ⁓

Shannon Curry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. the English professor. to evade responsibility,

Zach Brittle: Yeah, and to evade

Shannon Curry: evade.

Zach Brittle: responsibility in the original sort of context, it was designed, designed to make you feel crazy. It was something that the story is about a woman who knows that she puts the lights out every night, but he would put gas in the lights to make her think that the lights were out even though they weren’t. something along those lines. Like I won’t quote it exactly right, but it’s a

Shannon Curry: What was the original context? OK, so it’s a literary term. That’s what you mean. OK. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. And it includes a desire to make you crazy, um, which is evil and it’s malicious. And it’s so when people come in here and they’re like, Oh, my partner’s gaslighting me. go, are they like, do you think that, do you think your partner is deliberately trying to drive you crazy out of their sense of desire to harm you? Because when they can back off that and pretty much nobody ever says yes. Then I go, well, then you should leave.

Shannon Curry: I love that delineation. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Same thing with narcissism, right? Exactly. Like what is, what do you actually mean by that? And how are you doing? And is your perception of your partner? Yes. That they are actively trying to harm you maliciously, intentionally trying to harm you. Do not have your best interests at heart. And ⁓ I think, yeah, exactly. Well, then it’s just different perspectives.

Zach Brittle: then you should get out of this relationship, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, no, that’s not really what’s happening. I go, okay, then let’s, let’s take this term out of the vernacular and let’s replace it with something like there’s an evasion of responsibility or there’s a misunderstanding or there’s a, there’s a realization that we think different. They think differently about things and those things can all, you can work with all that. You can’t really work with, you know, malice for sure.

Shannon Curry: Right. I love how precise you are with language. It’s very scientific.

Zach Brittle: I have a very, well, I don’t know if I, okay, I want to hear about that, but I definitely, was talking to a guy earlier today about where my energy is and where my passion is. And right now, relationally, the best example I have is with my, is with Abby, the 22 year old who is ⁓ dating this guy and they, they, he’s a good guy. like him. I like her when she’s with him, which is kind of my, that’s kind of like my bigger thing. I’m sort of like, ⁓ she had this other guy that she dated and I didn’t like him and I didn’t like her when she was with him. And I was like,

Shannon Curry: That’s wonderful. ⁓ She’s doing well. You know what? That’s a good guide for all of us.

Zach Brittle: Yeah, I’m just like, I like you better when you’re with him. So sure. Yes. But they, he anyway, ⁓ doesn’t have the same vocabulary that she has and she’s cursed because she was raised by me and she’s a woman and she’s socialized to be relational and that stuff. But I think what he doesn’t need. Goodness instilled in him. needs words. He needs vocabulary. So language I think is the gateway to understanding more. And I sort of, I sort of always say the same thing. If you tell somebody a story about Spider-Man.

Shannon Curry: Right. Right.

Zach Brittle: And everybody knows the story of Spider-Man, but you use 500 words. It’s a pretty simple story. It’ll be true, but yeah, only a couple of characters and a couple of motivations, but you use 500,000 words. Same story, much more true, much more nuanced, much more complex, you know? And so I think people who don’t have, uh, I don’t want to say precise control of language because that feels too hoity toity. It feels too old money, but like people who don’t have access to more language.

Shannon Curry: Yeah. Yep. Richer. Mm-hmm.

Zach Brittle: or precision around their language, the stories they’re telling themselves aren’t as true as they could be, and they’re not as true as they should be. ⁓ Yeah, accurate, yeah.

Shannon Curry: We’re accurate. think having the right language or choosing the right, ensuring that you’re using the word you intend to use, right? the reason I said scientific is because specifically when I’m doing forensic work, it is so important to use very precise language to not overstep your role in terms of the law. Everything really needs to be careful, cautious, precise.

Zach Brittle: Hmm.

Shannon Curry: minimal and above all relevant to the particular legal question. ⁓ There are so many potential risks, right? So mischaracterizing data, misleading the jury, saying something that could be prejudicial, stepping over your role as an educator that is truly just presenting the data in a way that’s digestible and helps the fact finder. If you say something, even use a word that’s a little too salacious or share something about like, I think it’s heartbreaking. I once actually did that in a trial when I was talking a lot about how you can see some of these childhood risk factors and you can see them on report cards. And I then got less precise and I said, and sometimes it’s heartbreaking. You can see these report cards. Was what I was saying compelling? Yes, because it went to that kind of personal perspective. Was that appropriate for the courtroom where I need to be

Zach Brittle: Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: very unbiased, ⁓ ensuring that I am ⁓ truly just there to present data in a digestible way and the professional humility of this is for you guys to make your decision. ⁓ I really respect precision for that reason. And I think it’s hard and it’s kind of a constant inner checking and it’s respectful of others.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. All right, well.

Shannon Curry: I think that’s what I mean by science is ⁓ respect, humility, and really putting truth and accuracy above all else.

Zach Brittle: Okay, so now let’s take that over to codependency. How do you understand or how do you define or navigate this phrase? Yeah.

Shannon Curry: there is no definition for it that’s shared. I don’t use that phrase, frankly, because I’ve seen it become very harmful in cases that I’ve worked on, forensic cases, ⁓ particularly from therapy notes or some sort of records that are being brought in to support somebody’s position. ⁓ And it is not a definition that has been agreed upon in any

Zach Brittle: Hmm.

Shannon Curry: So it’s used a lot in 12 step programming, but it just is not substantiated. And then it can also be really problematic culturally. whereas it really tends, it’s used more often in contexts that are very Western white individualistic. And so it’s sort of, and I would say that it tends to be used in situations where it has a negative connotation and pathologizes. ⁓ behavior in which somebody is relying on another for support or over relying on another for support or validation or whatnot. That seems to be those I’m giving one example, but I’ve seen it used in a lot of ways. Either way, it tends to have a negative connotation. And I find it to be really problematic and prejudicial when it’s brought in to forensic cases. But I also think it’s problematic and prejudicial and really ⁓ disregards

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: different cultures and values when it’s brought in in the therapy context too.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. I think if I go to just the actual word, it’s this idea that we are co-dependent. We are dependent together. We just like we’re cooperative or we’re co-parents or whatever. Like, ⁓ and I think there’s actually like what I sometimes will do with co-dependence is I’ll say, that’s good. It’s good that you’re co-dependent. You should be, you should be co-dependent on each other, but I think that’s not what you’re describing. What are you describing?

Shannon Curry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. I love how you do things like that. Yep.

Zach Brittle: And then we hear about.

Shannon Curry: Well, I think it’s usually used. when I’ve heard it used, particularly I’m thinking of when I’ve seen it in therapy notes that I’ve reviewed in cases, it has been used in a pejorative way, sort of to suggest that, to describe a relational dynamic between partners that, or if one partner has a substance use or an alcohol use issue, the other partner is, ⁓ if the other partner is not,

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm to describe what? Yeah.

Shannon Curry: behaving in ways that the treating provider believes are setting firm enough boundaries or are really instilling consequences enough. If that other partner isn’t leaving when the clinician felt it would be appropriate to leave or when the partner who has a substance use problem is relapsing and the other partner isn’t ⁓ being firm about like you have to leave or something like that, that’s when I tend to see that word used to describe the dynamic between that couple. that they are codependent on one another. And usually the insinuation is that the partner who won’t leave is codependent on the other partner, even though that other partner is assumed to be bad for them because of the substance use issue or because of the alcohol use issue, which is also very pejorative because there are so many different degrees. And again, it comes down to, is this a problem for you? What does your value system tell you? Exactly.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Yeah. Or what are you actually complaining about? Or what do you, I don’t like complaining, but like lamenting or more grieving. Yeah.

Shannon Curry: Yeah, and I’ve run into this. Yeah, I’ve run into this where the person actually didn’t have a problem with it and really loved their partner and didn’t even believe that what was happening was that problematic. They thought their partner had a problem, but that in terms of severity, it was much like anybody else’s problems in life that they’re trying to tackle. And yet they felt very pressured by therapists to break it off or kick them out or this sort of thing. And then they constantly felt this pressure because they were failing. So they would engage in these sort of over what the client, the individual client felt was like an overcompository strictness, or ⁓ it really created a rupture between them. It really created a rupture between a couple that were otherwise incredibly trusting with one another and really dear friends and talked about things openly, but they felt like there was a way they should be handling it. ⁓ that wasn’t intuitive to them and yet they were trusting a therapist who was using essentially relying on a term that was not evidence-based.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Yeah. It just requires examination. That’s kind of my thing anyway. Like somebody says something and I’m like, I don’t know what you mean. Tell me what you mean. Like, what is that? I do that a lot. Another word you just said that I just kind of have become much more clear about abandoning is should. Like I, ⁓ I hear people describe things that should or shouldn’t happen or that their partner should or shouldn’t do, or that they should or shouldn’t feel. And I’m like, where does should come from? Like,

Shannon Curry: I love how you do that. ⁓ Yeah, and what we should be doing and shouldn’t do, shoulding all over ourselves. I love that term. Was that Beck who came up with that? Shoulding all over ourselves?

Zach Brittle: Who decides what should is? Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. I know that my mom’s therapist said that to her in 1990. I was like, I was like, okay.

Shannon Curry: Yeah, I think it was bad. Can I look, I gotta look it up. I wanna get this on the record because it is, it has to do with cognitive behavioral shoulding. And it was somebody with a good sense of humor who gets credit. Shoulding all over yourself.

Zach Brittle: Yeah, I just, think, for me, comes back to how like contempt works. So, and I say this, I say this, especially to men, I’ll say any, anything that you have decided. Put you in a position of authority over someone else or put you in a position of hierarchy over someone else. Any, any criteria. I’m a man, I’m wealthier. know more game of Thrones trivia. I’m nicer. It doesn’t matter is made up by you. It is created. It’s an artificial construct.

Shannon Curry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Zach Brittle: And so that’s the way I feel about should because should enters the chat and you’re like, wait a second, who decided should? And now you start to have all these conversations about, my parents or well, my first partner or well, da, da, da.

Shannon Curry: It’s an extra layer. an extra layer. And that’s really beautiful work right there.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s it’s

Shannon Curry: ⁓ It was Albert Ellis, Albert Ellis.

Zach Brittle: Man some of these names, of course, I haven’t heard since I was in like psych 101. Yeah Albert Ellis, that’s hilarious. Who’s the other guy? I’m thinking who’s the unconditional positive regard guy?

Shannon Curry: Licensing exams, yeah. ⁓ Carl Rogers. That was my guy. That was my comps exam. I chose humanistic therapy. I love humanistic, but that’s okay. So humanistic actually what you just described, you do humanistic beautifully because Carl Rogers was all about you are, he was all about essentially putting on somebody’s entire worldview, just completely removing your own lens.

Zach Brittle: Rogers. Hey Look at me. I’m Rosarian.

Shannon Curry: and being fearless and just unconditional positive regard, total genuineness in your interactions, and then empathy. Empathy. Empathy. But the radical empathy, I think, was pretty incredible because he was always just asking questions. Well, like, where does that message come from? Who says? Right? And that was very similar to just the idea that

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Yep, you’re close. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Curry: should and shouldn’t is an extra layer that has really nothing to do with our own values. And usually it’s just some preconceived notion that we haven’t really explored very fully.

Zach Brittle: Okay. I got another word I want you to mess around with. Empathy. What, what do you think of? Just kidding. empathy. Like what do you, what’s your, what’s your take on empathy? ⁓ how does it work? Is it, is it the right word? Is it the right tool?

Shannon Curry: empathy. I want you to go first because you always have a better answer than I do.

Zach Brittle: Well, have the reason I’m asking this question is because I’ve been I’ve been getting to know Sarah Nasrzada’s work. I don’t know if you know who she is, but she’s out of Southern California. She’s brilliant. And she she wrote this book called Love by Design. And she talks about in that book, she talks about how empathy is it’s overrated. It’s the wrong tool because it doesn’t it’s and she’s not anti empathy, but she’s pro compassion vis a vis empathy. So empathy requires you to feel

Shannon Curry: No, I’m gonna sound dumb. Okay. Hmm. Right. Okay. Explain.

Zach Brittle: what the other person feels. So if you’re sad, I have to feel sad in order to meet you where you’re at versus compassion says, man, that’s really lousy that you feel so sad. And I’d like to be of.

Shannon Curry: Right. See, I always thought empathy was defined that way.

Zach Brittle: Well, it could be semantic, right? We could just be parsing qualities, but there is something about empaths.

Shannon Curry: Right. And I thought of sympathy as the way you just defined empathy. I thought that was the difference between sympathy and empathy.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. And Brene Brown does a whole sympathy versus empathy thing, but you think about these empaths who they are like, Oh, I feel what you’re feeling. And now all of a sudden it’s about them, you know, versus people who have compassion and they can truly make it about the other. Yeah.

Shannon Curry: yeah. Right, right. about the other. You know, I wonder, I do like the semantics of that. I do think compassion captures more of the action, compassionate action. ⁓ For some reason, I think, but again, I think we’re talking about semantics and there may be listeners who are just ready to like drive off a cliff after listening to us dig into words. But I do think compassion for some reason, it does feel more active to me, like an act of compassion.

Zach Brittle: Hmm Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry: It’s truly about the other.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. That’s okay. I think about this episode, this is what I’m thinking about this episode. It’s sort of like a dictionary and you just like flip to a page and you’re like, ⁓ what is the definition of this word or what is the definition of that word? And yeah, what is not the definition? I got another one. ⁓ In the context of a fair recovery or betrayal, do you have a principle or a practice for how you label each partner? So like,

Shannon Curry: And what is not the definition of codependency? OK. Mm-hmm. ⁓ God, I have not landed on anything I like. What do you do? Amazing question.

Zach Brittle: Okay. Well, there’s, there’s lots of different, there’s lots of different ideas about it. And I, the one, one that I think I’m most comfortable with theoretically, but least comfortable with semantically is involved and harmed. like the involved partner and the harmed partner that actually, I think this comes out of John and Julie’s work, John and Julie Gottman’s work, ⁓ in part, because there’s an effort to not pathologize or, ⁓ like turn somebody into a betrayer and a betrayed. ⁓ And then of course there’s even more pathological language like cheater, you know, or, ⁓ but there is, there is a, these, people have roles. They have roles in this thing, you know, and in fact, when, particularly when it’s directly, when it’s an affair, somebody comes in, someone is involved in an affair and someone has been harmed by that. I just don’t think it’s very sexy language. I got it’s like,

Shannon Curry: Betray, betrayer, yeah. Right. Right, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. I love that. I mean, I literally am like, I go I do whole sentences. I’m like, so you were the one that had the affair and you were the one that found out about it. And I mean, I am literally labeling them like that at you, the one who found out about it. And yeah, so.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I don’t actually, ⁓ of course you probably have couples who come in and like they want to debate the word affair. Well, it wasn’t an affair. was a, it didn’t, mean, yeah. man. Well, people, I mean, it’s just like, who wants to own it? Not a lot of people, right?

Shannon Curry: Not usually, actually. Not usually. Yeah, you know, think most of the, well, either I have complete denial of an affair and then there’s busted and then it’s, I haven’t encountered anything that’s really on a slippery slope. ⁓ Either it’s busted and it’s bad. And a lot of people come to me after it is factual. I mean, it’s out in the open. They know there’s been full confession kind of a thing.

Zach Brittle: Mm hmm. Sure. Yeah. It just, you know, the, becomes the, so I, I, I abandoned it pretty fast because I’m like, does it, I’ll do the same thing. I just go, does it matter? Like we can call it whatever you want. You feel betrayed and you have some repair to achieve. And what’s exactly the same point? Like somebody comes in and says, ⁓ you had an affair and go, no, I didn’t. It was just a, it was just some flirting with a car girl. And I’m like,

Shannon Curry: Yeah, you don’t want to get stuck in the weeds with that. Yeah, again, right. You feel betrayed, right. ⁓ Same thing with addiction or substance use problems, right? It’s the same point.

Zach Brittle: Does it matter? Like you’re, didn’t sign up for that. Like, so you sign up for X, you get Y, that’s a breach and that breach needs repair. So we can debate all day long if we want to label it different ways. But I do try to like, de-pathologize it as much as possible in part, so that you can get both people on board, you know, you don’t want one person, perhaps the involved person sitting there the entire time, trying to defend themselves against, you know,

Shannon Curry: ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Right.

Zach Brittle: the lack of precise language, you know, or language that is more precise than it needs to be.

Shannon Curry: Exactly. It’s a waste of time. Right. I focus more on the behavior. Is this a problem for you? Is this a problem for you? Okay, so it’s a problem for you guys. We got to figure this out. And sometimes I think it’s really interesting if we, I’ve had couples where we even have to get into kind of uncovering. I mean, really we’re talking about like some perpetual problems in what they consider freedom.

Zach Brittle: Mm Yeah. Mm hmm. Sure.

Shannon Curry: what they

Zach Brittle: Yeah.

Shannon Curry: consider their ability to be social and free, what ⁓ somebody considers to be inappropriate, even porn, right? So you get into these kind of existential type explorations about sexuality, friendship, ⁓ and that stuff can get really heavy. And then I focus on that like any other perpetual issue that we’re trying to figure out, understand deeper values around, and then come up with hopefully a compromise. Sometimes that compromise is far more in favor of the other person. because the relationship will end otherwise, but we’re trying to come to a solution that they can live with.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Hmm. I could kick out on words all day long.

Shannon Curry: ⁓ I could do, I love when you define them.

Zach Brittle: Yeah, it’s kind of fun. mean, I think it’s, it’s important to kind of know what you’re talking about. And then, sometimes when clients are in my office and they’re talking and they’re just kind of happened today, so she’s talking, talking. I was like, they’re like, so she looked me in the eye. goes, am I making any sense? And I was like, not really. I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. I don’t, I don’t know what, I don’t know what you are trying to accomplish or what, what you want. Like, I’m just not, so is that helpful?

Shannon Curry: I would die. I’d die. I mean, that’s genuine, right? It’s genuine. And that’s some in vivo shit. Can I swear on this?

Zach Brittle: Yeah, I guess you can because there’s you have what does that mean in vivo?

Shannon Curry: ⁓ Real life, sort of like in real life, the dynamic is the therapy. Yeah.

Zach Brittle: yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I think that’s probably my data. So I’m an in vivo Rosarian couples therapist, I suppose.

Shannon Curry: Yeah, you’re doing good stuff.

Zach Brittle: ⁓ Do you, okay, this will be my last question. ⁓ What do you know about couples who make it versus couples who don’t make it?

Shannon Curry: ⁓ Do you need me to do tutoring towards statistics and bids? Or is this in my own life?

Zach Brittle: No, just want like in your, when your gut kicks in and you’re like, you guys are gonna be okay versus when you’re like, no, not gonna work. Like what do know about the difference between those?

Shannon Curry: yeah. ⁓ 100%. Yeah. This is the real therapist talk, right? This is the stuff, yeah, that the listeners actually are getting a peek on. Yeah. I mean, look, do they like it? Do they want to make it work? Is there love there? You know, I’ve got, I’ve had clients where it’s not, ⁓ it’s not therapy, it’s babysitting, right? It’s, they’re using that time. It’s the couple that,

Zach Brittle: Yeah, that’s what I want. I don’t want the stats, I want your gut. Hmm. Hmm.

Shannon Curry: It’s not okay for the sessions to be further apart because they cannot ⁓ or don’t want to work on things together. Like their partner is the enemy. They are so far away from that idea of you and me against the world. ⁓ Like, if they like me more than each other, or they’re relying more on me than each other, ⁓ and we talked last time about the opposite of that, where there’s triangulation and I’m like the enemy, but I mean, if truly I’m looked at as like, you’ll have a better phrase for this, but like a savior from their partner, right? There’s just this chasm. ⁓ Yeah, like they don’t even want to give their partner the benefit of doubt.

Zach Brittle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, proxy or a surrogate kind of.

Shannon Curry: Couples that really are easy to work with, the ones where you can give them some facts and they take it, they implement it you see growth pretty quickly, those are the ones that come in really wanting it to work, both of them. They want it to work and they’re not gonna burn it down every time they walk out of your office. And I have couples that truly like, it’s almost just a, eh, I don’t care, F it.

Zach Brittle: Yeah.

Shannon Curry: They walk out of the office and they’ll do everything to burn it down, to hurt their partner. I just don’t see the effort. And I think, yeah, if they are truly trying and eager, there’s like an eagerness to learn. They wanna be here, they wanna learn this stuff. They’re just as pumped on it as I am because they want the hope. ⁓ That’s a really good sign.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. All right. I’ll that for a dollar. I’m sitting here thinking about if I have an answer to my own question. ⁓ I definitely can clock within the first half hour or so whether or not a couple is going to grow or change or make it, if that’s the phrase. ⁓ Well, that’s the thing I’m wondering about. Like sometimes I wonder, like, because here’s the reality. Let’s say I clock it and I’m wrong and I, and I, and I give up on them before.

Shannon Curry: What do you think? What do you pick up on? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zach Brittle: it’s fair, right or good. And I don’t think that happens very often, but it certainly could. In fact, I tell clients all the time, I’ll hang in there longer than you. that’s, I don’t, yeah. But for me, if I think about one thing, it’s that they’re not creative. Like couples that are going to make it, they have to be willing to think creatively about the trajectory they’re on and believe in the idea that they can be on a different one. Yeah.

Shannon Curry: Mm-hmm. Interesting. They’re not rigid.

Zach Brittle: Yeah, they’re not rigid. mean, there’s a woman that I, that I like, ⁓ that I read her name is Jane McGonigal. don’t remember if I told you about Jane McGonigal already, but, she does this thing where she talks about episodic future thinking, which is, ⁓ I sneak up on people cause I say, have you ever heard of EFT? And they’re like, yes, I have. It’s emotional focus there. I’m like, no, no, no, it’s episodic future thinking. But she says, you know, imagine where you’re going to wake up tomorrow. Can you do it? And you can, you’re going to be in your bed. Ty’s going to be there. It’s going to jogs or whatever.

Shannon Curry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zach Brittle: Okay. How about a year from now? Yes, I can imagine that probably same house, probably same people. Main characters are the same. Probably going to smell the same. Lighting is going to be the same. What about 10 years from now? And then all of sudden your brain goes, I don’t know. I don’t, uh, maybe I’ll be in the same house or maybe I’ll. And it’s that gap between say one year and 10 years that our brains have to access imagination and access creativity. And, and that’s where, that’s where change comes from. That’s what, that’s how novels get written. So.

Shannon Curry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. This is cool.

Zach Brittle: Jane McGonigal, she sort of goes, imagine a world where there’s no water or imagine a world where high school students go to a wizard school if they have a special capacity or whatever and then these magical creative stories get written. And if your relationship is gonna change in a way that doesn’t look like it looks now, you have to imagine. a where you’re really deliriously happy or a world where you’re having great sex or a world where you’re kind of not having the conflict that you had before. And then you have to, your creativity has to kick in, right? And no, no, I don’t. I think it’s, and because it’s this, because I think there’s a, ⁓

Shannon Curry: Do you think hope can do that? Just the hope or the desire?

Zach Brittle: Like when I think about creativity and hope, I put them kind of in the same category as like capacity and desire. Like you have to have both. You can’t have one or the other. You can have all the hope in the world and no creativity, you’re not gonna make it. You can have all the creativity in the world, no hope, you’re not gonna make it, you know, but.

Shannon Curry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. What about willingness? ⁓ Maybe you don’t know what it will look like, because that’s why you’re coming to the therapist, but as you’re learning, you’re willing to try whatever they’re suggesting. That kind of flexibility.

Zach Brittle: Well, that’s creativity. That’s outsourcing your own capacity and saying somebody else can do that. mean, it’s like going to a painting class and saying, I’m not a good painter, but I’m good at imagining how to be a good painter, so I’m going to take this class.

Shannon Curry: Interesting. Right. Right. Okay. See, that’s what I think I am talking about. you just, yes, it’s the couples that are, and I think that’s one of the problems with somebody coming in certain that their partner is a narcissist. It’s like, okay, so what does this look like for you? Why are you here?

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Curry: Why would you want to improve your marriage to a narcissist if you’re so certain that this person is a narcissist? That’s pretty awful. Yeah, exactly. So that flexibility, that hopefulness, I think a little humility in the relationship ⁓ or about knowing everything about your partner or your relationship. When I see people like that, like I love working with them. They’re such a joy. And they do, they do better. It’s awesome. I had a couple today, they’re really happy.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Certainty is a killer for sure. Yeah. Cool. Well, listen, thanks for hanging out with me. This has been really fun. I’m glad we got to squeeze these in and, learn a lot. No, no, no, there’s nothing to edit. We just, we’re just shooting the shit. We started marriage therapy radio, Laura and I did, because we were out at bars talking about this stuff. And we’re like, wouldn’t it be cool for somebody to be a fly on the wall and just listen to us talking. And then that’s exactly what we did today. We just like talked, geeked out on stuff and somebody.

Shannon Curry: We’re going put your editor to work on this one. apologize. OK. You’re

Zach Brittle: is a fly on the wall and they’re just listening to it and

Shannon Curry: the best. Okay.

Zach Brittle: they can turn it off if they want. I’m not worried about it.

Shannon Curry: You’re so cool.

Zach Brittle: Alright, cool. Listen, I do, really appreciate you and I’m glad that we’re friends and I’m glad that you came on my show ⁓ and yeah, we’ll talk more soon.

Shannon Curry: I appreciate you. Me too. All right, buddy. See you soon. Bye.