Permission for Pleasure w/Dr. Jenni Skyler and Daniel Lebowitz

It's good to talk to you guys. Thanks for coming on Marriage Therapy Radio. You have children?

Yep, 2.

Yeah, 2 boys.

I was brushing my teeth and you were talking about like maybe getting takeout tonight or doing this other thing. Like, how do you actually organize your day? That's why I said you're adorable. I was like, this is amazing. Like, just regular people doing their thing. But how do you do just your day with paper calendars and kids and life? Like, how do the 2 of you wake up and manage that?

I would say that we have really different roles in how we divide our our day and what we track. We both track a lot, but different things. And I think it's really balanced. I mean, you have a Google Calendar and we sync up with your calendar. We have calendar business meetings and we're like, let's look at the calendar. And we'll sit down on the couch, like on Sunday nights we'll do this usually. And you'll pull out your calendar, I'll pull out mine. And we just get synced up in terms of like kids' activities, who can drive which kid where, where do they need to go?

How old are your kids?

10 and 12. So the number one thing that I suggest for couples with kids as like a relationship skill, but we do this all the time, is the weekly check-in. Like without a weekly check-in, we would lose our minds. Yeah.

And, and it's not sexy, but it's so practical and needed.

So practical. And I, and so I think, what is it?

What is it? What is the, what is the composition of your weekly check-in?

So I would say there's usually, we look at finances for a few minutes and make sure things are okay.

And, yep, you know, Bills coming up, money coming in, money going out, anything that—

It's a financial conversation.

Yeah, any planned expenses or purchases or anything like that. We're doing a bunch of home improvements right now, so just sort of checking in about, hey, when are the windows due? And, you know, did that contractor get back to you about this price? Or, you know, so some of it is just that piece. I would say—

We do kids' schedule for the week.

Schedule for the week.

We're Uber drivers for them.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then we both have different meetings, um, and different volunteer things we're involved in. And so just sort of updating any of those details. Like if I have a board meeting for, um, one of the organizations I volunteer with, I'll be like, hey, Wednesday night is out because I, I have a board meeting. Or Jenni would be like, oh, I had to schedule a meeting with this company at this time, so can you pick up the kids? And so we'll just make sure that balls aren't getting dropped because it's so much easier to plan with more time in advance than scramble after the fact. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd say that's a lot of the check-in. And that— so usually it's sort of the check-in looks like we look at the week.

Yeah. And then sometimes the month, but the week for sure.

Yeah. And then we sort of zoom out to more of like, hey, we were talking about taking that trip in October and we're trying to figure out, can we pull it off? Can we still make it happen? And then also, hey, like we have to plan that life cycle event for, you know, next year for our, you know, our 12-year-old. He has his bar mitzvah coming up. So we're like, okay, You know, we got to start planning that out. Did they get back to you about the, you know, the catering or anything like that? So yeah, some of it is really far out and some of it is what's happening tonight or tomorrow.

Yeah. You said, Jenni, it's not sexy. I have a story now that I'm making up because the two of you are the Intimacy Institute. Is that right?

Correct.

Do you think that doing the not sexy part makes it easier to do the sexy part?

100%. I mean, for me, if I can check that box and then it's like out of the way, then I don't have to think about it.

Yeah.

Like it's a compartment. Like if I can finish, you know, if, if the house is sort of in order, which is actually more for you, you know, if our life is in order and we've checked that box, we've had the conversations just logistically we need to have, I'm not thinking about that and bringing that into a more sexy time. I'm like, okay, we've done all that and now I can clear my head and be just present.

Mm-hmm.

Totally.

Yeah, I think people will get this really mixed up because they, they sort of think that sexy is the means when it's, I think it's more likely that it's the ends. Does that make sense? Like the ends justify the means. And I'm happy to have that conversation with you. Let me ask you this question. What is, what do you think is like your elevator speech about intimacy? Like if we think about this is the, this is the brand or this is the identity that the two of you have professionally, I would imagine it flows out of some version of what you love and care about Personally, what's the shtick for the two of you?

You go first. I'm so curious what you'll say. Then I'll go. I'm sure we have something different to say, but I'm sure they're connected.

Probably. So I would say that we help people get out of their own way to build connection and a deeper layer of relationship. I think intimacy, one of the ways I describe intimacy is it's the junk drawer where all of the other unresolved of dynamics end up showing up. And so when you can work with intimacy, you can work with all the other dynamics that end up being relevant to the disconnect between a couple.

Do you have a definition for it? How would you define it? Intimacy?

I think intimacy is the willingness to be seen in the layers and parts of ourselves we don't otherwise show the world. Intimacy has, has an element of specialness to it that most people don't ever get access to. And so it's a gift of self that you're offering to the person you're, you're sharing some intimacy with. Does that make sense?

I think you just said 2 different things. I think you said—

I might have.

It's a willingness to be seen, which seems like it's subjective. And then it's the gift of self, which seems like it's objective. Like, the willingness to be seen is like, I'm going to open up myself and make that available to you. But the gift of self is something I'm— well, maybe they're the same. Maybe I'm talking myself into that they're the same.

No, I think you're both onto something. I would just consolidate that. Maybe it's like sacred vulnerability, part A, and sacred validation, part B. Like, you have to be willing to be vulnerable. And can you be willing to receive the validation and have that feedback loop of connection.

So intimacy would be the offering and holding of self and other.

Okay. I'm just really glad you didn't say, into me I see, or something like that.

Like that super cheesy, like, rote line.

Intimacy is into me I see you, or something.

Yeah.

Jenni, if you had gone first, what would your answer have been? Do you think?

I conceptualized the Intimacy Institute. I actually cooked this baby up before I met him, and then he joined forces. The mission statement was giving all people permission for pleasure. And I still think that there's deep elements to that in terms of sex is the tip of the iceberg that people come in with. It's the symptom. It's what opens the door. If a man's penis doesn't work and their functioning isn't working, they are the first on the phone call, right? When I need help or my marriage is struggling.

You think he is?

Oh yeah. If he— if his penis doesn't work for some reason, premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction, sometimes delayed ejaculation, they're anxious phone calls, a lot of them.

Okay.

Sometimes. Okay. Um, if there's a high desire, low discrepancy— for the desire discrepancy, usually he— if he is the higher— if it's heterosexual, if he is the higher desire partner, He's the phone call. We need to fix this, right?

Mm-hmm.

Women tend to be more of the phone call in general therapy outside of sex, or if they're experiencing the struggle more viscerally. But it's whoever's struggling more viscerally usually makes the phone call. And when it comes to sex, oftentimes men experience it more viscerally. So they, I mean, I say, I would say we probably get 70% of the inquiries are men, 30% women is probably the ratio of that. Even though it's probably 50/50 couples, individuals, in terms of what we see. But back to like elevator speech, sex is the symptom that opens the door. They're willing to stay and do the deeper dive, the psychological layers beneath. There's so much underneath there, right? There's the emotional intimacy to work on, the physical, the sensual, the sexual, all the dots that connect in terms of their patterns and dynamics. And I think what we do is a lot of psychoeducation, a lot of psychodynamic work. IFS, like we have a lot of different like theories that we bring into it. I would say it's pretty— it's not one size fits all. So we kind of blend what we do in terms of what the couple needs, um, in terms of like clinical sex therapy. But what we do is offer clinical sex and relationship therapy so people can come and do brief solution-focused, try to fix your sexual issue and go out the door. If you wanna stay longer, we can do the deeper dive for the whole relational components of that iceberg underneath. I say our mission is and was giving people permission for pleasure, and I don't want to abandon that, but I think it's bigger now in terms of, like, sexuality and intimacy at its best, especially in this age of technology and AI and screens and the depletion of intimacy and vulnerability, is allowing yourself to, like, move out of, like, avatar screen mode and into deep, authentic self. Like, be your—

Mm-hmm.

big, wild, authentic self and bring that to the bedroom. And if that's awkward, great. And if that's wild, great. And if that's shy, great. But like, what is it to actually just show up as yourself in your sexuality and allow that to be, um, how you, how you do your whole sexual life?

Well, here's my hypothetical case study. Um, this, because this is the thing that I think is most sort of that maybe if I could isolate one theme right now, it's that and I'm 53, so a lot of my clients are sort of peer neighborhood for me. Like, I've got a lot of 40, 50, 60-year-old clients. She is often grappling with menopause, perimenopause, whatever that season is.

Yeah.

She's sometimes also waking up to her own sexuality. She's like, hey, my body is telling me, like, I'm ready, I wanna do this thing, I'm interested, I'm eager, I want— and he is kind of coming down off of his hill. He's coming off of his, like, I don't know, man. I'm kind of tired. I like being retired. I like reading about cars. I like reading about sports. I like just tinkering in my garage. So it's a little bit different of what you described in terms of the phone call that comes in, right? In this case, she is really wanting to like wake this thing up or at least reclaim it. And he is like up for it, but not all that. He's just not, I don't know. It's not a priority. I guess my question is, What, what's really going on for them? Or what do you know about that? Or what access to intimacy do they have? Or where do you start? I'm not trying to get you to carry the torch for me, but like, what is it?

I'm super curious about his testosterone levels. I bet you are too. Yeah, it's the big secret, sad, like, decline. Like, so many men test their testosterone like, oh, this is why I've been like dragging. This is why my energy's low. This is why I'm like slightly apathetic. This is why my gym workouts are half the energy. This is why my sex drive is like, blah. This is, you know, I would ask that man, and I'm sure you'll ask the same thing, but like, do you wake up with morning erections? How frequently and how hard? What is your self-pleasure practice? Like, where is your vivacious, um, I don't say libido because that's not really a clinical word.

Potency.

Potency, yeah. In life, not just sexually.

Interesting. And I don't want to gloss over— I don't want to say libido. I don't want to say libido because why?

Well, you can say libido. I think libido is a catch-all phrase. It's not really clinical. It's a catch-all phrase for your arousal and desire. And what we're actually trying to understand is his— I like that word, Daniel— potency, because it's like a life potency. What you see, and you can kind of see it with men even when, like, they appear in front of you on a screen or in person, like, if there's like a dragging energy, maybe it's like a bad night's sleep. But like, I'm curious, all the other factors in his life in terms of is he getting enough protein, is— what do his workouts look like? Like I said, what do the erections look like? What does self-pleasure look like? Because that's potency. Um, and oftentimes men don't even realize the slow decline of their testosterone until they're kind of like dragging.

It's a frog in water in a lot of ways. And so, interesting, men who are struggling with low testosterone Everything feels hard. Okay. Getting out of bed, getting into bed. Oh, I'm so wrecked, right?

Yeah.

Oh, I got to do the dishes. Oh, there's this, there's this like noise. It's not that you can't do it, but everything, it's like, I mean, you remember back when there was actual emergency brakes that had like, it was, it was like, it was, it was halfway pulled up for the emergency brake. Everything had just a little bit of resistance. That's what men experience when testosterone is low. And so the way you described the man, he's— it's not that he isn't on board, it's just there's that extra friction that things aren't flowing smoothly and easily for him in the same way that I hear for her. She, she doesn't have that same friction in the same way because if her hormones are being regulated, then she suddenly has a new lease on life because— The emergency brake just suddenly went off. And she's like, oh, I have energy again. I'm sleeping better again. I look at the world differently again. Hey, you're interesting to me. Like, what are you doing over here? And he's not on the same page.

Yeah.

Does that resonate or feel—

I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, I think in this imaginary scenario that I have, I would wonder about— I wouldn't say this. I think you two could, but I don't think I would start with, maybe you should go get your testosterone checked. You know, there's some other thing that I'm wondering about. And it might be that actually might be it. I mean, maybe it sounds like maybe if we had this like really clear sense of like what the data said, we go, oh, there it is. Take these, uh, take these supplements, or I don't know how that works, but like—

Let me back up so you understand how my brain is thinking and why I said that first. Um, if this was my couple and they came to me and I'm doing the intake, I want to know a bunch of things about their background and medically. Do they have a doctor? Have they— you know, I always ask about their medications, what, you know, struggles in terms of health that they have had or have currently, because that plays a piece in that. And I ask about hormones, especially, you know, if we're talking about people 40 and over, I'm asking about hormones for both parties. And so I'll get a whole picture of that. So I get, you know, I start the intake there, one, because I don't start with like, tell me about your sex life. I'm trying to build rapport.

Right, right, right.

So in the rapport building, I'll get a picture of hormones. usually. But I'll also get a picture of, like, is this couple clearly in a dynamic where there's resentment? Is this couple struggling relationally? And if that's, like, the place, if that's the trailhead, I'll go there first because he might not be as interested sexually because there's resentment in the room. Or—

Yeah.

You know, she had an affair 5 years ago, and they didn't quite heal from it, and he's still, like, carrying that in his psyche. And so, like, I am looking for all those other pieces too. So I'm putting together the whole puzzle, if you will, in that intake. So you're right, I might not start with testosterone, but if they're like, we get along, we're good friends, you know, we've got good, you know, juicy emotional intimacy, but we're just kind of like low energy, I'm like, okay, tell me, tell me more about your health.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm trying to ask all the questions to get that full picture in that first session. And I'll feel out where, where I'm going to go first based on what the couple's telling me and what they're presenting with.

That makes, that makes sense to me. It's just, it's wild. It's a wild season because, you know, I feel like every, every other client I have is coming in with this, this general dynamic, um, which is a flip in the last 5 or so years. Like, it doesn't— it's not— it's, it's a new, it's a new pattern for me, which is why I'm kind of curious about it.

Well, I mean, if you want to share your piece.

Yeah, no, I, I think that there's a I mean, I absolutely agree with everything you said there. I think one of the other things I see a lot in that scenario, if it isn't low testosterone, is in some way it's a learned— I don't want to say indifference, but a little like a learned tolerance or acceptance of the sexual dynamic or the intimacy dynamic that is good enough, but also I don't know where else it's gonna go, right? If, if the man doesn't have a sense of hope and inspiration that things are gonna be like, we're gonna be, you know, we're gonna be rocking it in the bedroom, we're gonna have things look totally different in 6 months, it's like, I don't know if I really want to get my hopes up, right? Like, this is good enough. Like, we're still having sex every once in a while, and maybe that's just what it is. I think for a lot of people in that situation, there's a resistance to dreaming.

If I never get to go to Hawaii, then I won't miss it.

Exactly.

That thing. I'll add one more piece here, which is if she's new to feeling her zestiness of her sexuality, and she's now starting to initiate more, it may be catching him off guard. So I'm always curious about their sexual history in terms of who has initiated and how, because if he has been historically the initiator, We don't know what he's doing behind the scenes before he initiates. Is he popping his Viagra for the past 15 years so he knows he's gonna have a solid, reliable erection? Now, now that he's being invited and it's spontaneous for him, you know, he's caught like a deer in the headlights. Where's my Viagra, for instance? And there are so many men who avoid the bedroom, either initiating or, or participating because they're totally afraid of their sexual functioning failing them.

Hmm.

And so then they don't even start on that path.

Totally.

And so once we solve the sexual functioning piece, or just give permission for the penis to join the party whenever it feels like it, because his sexuality is more than his penis, right? When, when those pieces are solved, then saying yes and participating on her terms is way easier. So sometimes it's sexual functioning, sometimes it's low testosterone, sometimes it's resentment, sometimes it's learned indifference, sometimes it's a porn or sex addiction or affair. Like, there's a lot of different reasons why there's, you know, the lower male desire. Sometimes it's just depression. Sometimes there's trauma, right? Sometimes there's trauma that's being refelt in the body, and that, that, that's a big block to like coming into your yes.

So the couple that's gonna get better, a couple that's gonna transcend here, one thing they have to kind of be committed to is some real inquiry, some real investigative curiosity around kind of how they got here and where they want to go. How did the two of you decide this was our area of inquiry and passion and energy?

That's a great question.

We have very different paths.

Yeah, go for it.

So, as I said, I'm the cougar, so I'm a little bit older. I started the business before I met him. That's what my dad called me when I started dating him, that I'm a cougar.

She's 4 years older than me.

Whatever. 4 years? That hardly counts, but go ahead.

It doesn't.

That's part of the joke. Just to put it in your database.

Yes.

Anyway, the short of it is I grew up in a very open home in terms of like everything was— there was no taboo around sexuality. My dad was a medical doctor, is a medical doctor. I learned about sexuality very medically oriented, like, here are some books, here are some videos, this is what you learn, this is what you understand about the world. Like, he's sort of like medical, medical, medical. And so even though it was like interesting medical, it was still not a taboo. It wasn't And so, you know, I had coffee table books, like, at the time, you know, The Joy of Sex by Alex Comfort was, like, one of the first ones. It was, like, in our library. And my friends would come over and be like, oh my gosh, you have a sex book. And I'm like, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I also have a diabetes book, and I have an art book. But because nobody else did, I ended up becoming sort of the Dr. Ruth of my friends. I was like, oh, this is kind of fun to talk about and easy. And why are you guys struggling with this? And it's so natural for me. It's like my second language. Fast forward to college, I was in The Vagina Monologues in college, and I wrote my own monologue about female pleasure because it was missing from Eve Ensler's monologue book. And I realized that was fun and important and also missing from the conversation. So when I went to grad school, I knew I wanted to be a therapist, but I was very, like, focused on, I want to do sex therapy, and created my whole career around that. And that's how I opened the Intimacy Institute, met him. I'll let you tell your part of the story because you did not want to be a sex therapist but ended up becoming an amazing sex therapist. Thank you.

You're welcome. So I grew up in a family of therapists. My dad was a psychiatrist. My mom is a psychotherapist. My grandma was a child psychologist. My grandfather studied business psychology. Like, I grew up steeped in that language. And so I avoided the family footsteps for a long time, but I also grew up in a family environment where whenever you would introduce a girlfriend to your, you know, your grandmother, she'd be like, how's your sex life? In front of your girlfriend. And so, um, That was just the conversation. My grandma, I mean, there are—

Can I do that with our grandkids?

You probably will, regardless of whatever I say. You know, my grandmother was in many ways just the champion of open dialogue. And so she would routinely talk about in the '60s discovering the book The Joy of Sex and how she and my grandpa discovered, like, first tried out oral sex and would go into great detail in a way that nobody would actually wanna hear about, but end up being great stories later on, right? So there was that thread.

Can I pause you for a second? You know how Freud says repetition compulsion, you kind of marry an iteration of your parents? Grandma, you married an iteration of grandma. But anyway, go on.

So that was the family footsteps that I grew up in. But I didn't want to be a therapist. I was looking at, I actually have a master's degree in Latin American studies and was looking at being a history professor. then got tired of studying things that didn't have an impact on people on a daily basis. I really wanted to make a difference. I wanted to feel a sense of contribution.

Right.

And backtracking, so I've always been really passionate about subjects around masculinity and men's work. My dad died of a heart attack when I was 7. And so for me, a big part of growing up and going through adolescence without a father figure, was having to figure out things on my own that took some— took some time to sort through, right? And I was lucky. I mean, I, I was reading Iron John when I'm 14, and my mind was kind of blown. And I was really passionate about doing masculinity work and men's therapy rather than sex therapy. When— and so those are subjects I was really curious about. When we met, I was looking at going back to school because I was realizing I wanted to make this direct impact. And we met and she's like, well, I have this Intimacy Institute practice and I could really use a male counterpart. I was like, well, I, I don't know if I really want to do sex therapy. I want to do men's work.

You're just colleagues and friends or co— you're just peers at this point?

Friends at the time. Um, as part of our courtship, we were sort of flirting with each other and getting to know each other and building a friendship that had a tension around it.

It was a friendship that caught fire. Yeah, I was on a dating sabbatical, so I met him and he was adorable and I was like, but I am on a sabbatical.

And I was wife hunting. So I was, I was like, I know exactly what I'm looking for, and you're unavailable, so I'll just talk to you about the terrible online dates that I'm going on. And so, and so I'd call her up after the date and be like, hey, you want to hang out? And she'd be like, oh, your date's over? I was like, yeah, it was, you know, it was, it was a bust. And so we'd hang out and just drop into conversations.

It's like every rom-com ever, right?

It is. It is.

It is. And so Eventually, she's like, okay, you finished your program, like, just take a few clients. And what I discovered—

It is men's work. Basically, I was like, it's men's work. You just start with talking about their penis first. And yeah, and I, you know, I gave him some basics on premature— all the premature ejaculation and erectile dysfunction.

Greatest hits.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then I sort of realized how quickly those two Topics merged really, really well. And as a result of all those different pieces, I'd say sex has become the access point for doing really deep work with men. That is really what fires me up.

Right on. Uh, did you both say that The Joy of Sex was a book that was influential in your family of origin?

Yeah. Yeah.

Is that a recommendation? Should we— is it on your— is it on your, like, coffee table in front of your 10 and 12-year-old?

No, there's other books, um, but not that one.

Okay.

I'm just, I'm just wondering if it's a, if it's a recommendation that we should—

It's so funny. Um, it's been so long since I leafed through that book.

I've, I've actually, to be totally honest, I've never read it. My, my grandparents read it and then shared details. I might have some PTSD about it, so maybe that's why I haven't read it. Um, but—

I feel like I have memories of like the woman with super long hairy armpits because it was the '70s and like that was the in thing. And my friends were like, oh, look at this woman. She's in this sexual position with these long, hairy armpits. And I remember being like, oh, how interesting. Just thinking about the cultural and social changes over the decades of what's sexy when and why. So I have that memory in my mind from The Joy of Sex. But we have other coffee table books. Our kids are pretty immune. They're like, oh, sex again, Mom and Dad. You have boys, girls? 2 boys.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, I feel like I have a book in my brain from the '70s. It's maybe something really as simple as like, Where Do Babies Come From?

Yeah.

And it was, uh, almost like a picture book or it had like, like round people.

Yeah.

You know, round little cartoon figures.

Yes.

So that's amazing. Okay. I want to go back to, so we talked about intimacy a little bit. Let's talk about this other thing. Pleasure. What is that? Um, and I'm imagining it goes beyond just sexual pleasure, but like when you think about giving people permission to experience pleasure. What is that for you? What is it for the two of you, basically?

It's interesting because I just started rethinking this. I have had my whole career thinking about pleasure as a global experience of your sensuality coming to life, feeling electrified, particularly as it pertains to your sexuality, but more globally as well. And I've always said pleasure is your birthright. And This is something that humans are wired towards, and avoid pain and try to seek pleasure. Again, I come back to the cultural piece. I think that is true for this society, but I think there are definitely other religions and society that don't conceptualize pleasure as your birthright.

Hmm.

Which is why I'm thinking about, like, that rewiring or almost rewilding kind of, like, of our sexuality as, like, an authentic experience that may not always be centered around pleasure, right? It might be centered more around, like, connection or spirit or feeling what—

Well, I think pleasure is the reward for that connection.

Yes.

Maybe that's not quite where you were going.

I think about pleasure— okay, I think about it this way. I think about Whole Foods and that chocolate eruption cake.

Are you familiar with this?

No, I actually— I'm glad you said this because I'm, I'm actually toying with this theory about and around people who are challenged to experience pleasure, let's say in the bedroom. Can they do it at the dinner table?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Can they like engage their senses, eat slowly, taste the food, you know, that sort of thing? Like, I'm wondering about a more expansive definition of pleasure on behalf of not putting so much pressure into the bedroom, if that makes sense.

100%. I think that's a great place to start practicing allowing yourself that permission for pleasure, because I think a lot of people— and I'll come back to my chocolate eruption cake in a moment— I think a lot of people think that I first must earn my pleasure. First I got to do all the hard stuff. I have to suffer enough, and then I, I'm allowed to have pleasure. It's kind of like people They're like, if I exercise just enough, then I can eat the certain amount of calories, or then I can eat the dessert, but only first if I earn it. And so I think that our society has a way of thinking about pleasure as not permission for it, but I must earn it. And so what is it to just say, actually, you don't have to earn it. It is your birthright. At least in this society, there is a lot of permission to just drop into it. Now, some people may over-drop into it and be overindulgent and lack the receptivity reciprocity and generosity. Um, but I think globally you're onto something like, yes, let's practice with our food. Like, what gives you— like, I'll— we'll do couples retreats and I'll bring chocolate. I'm like, I want them to eat the chocolate really slowly and notice what happens. Um, or fruit, you know, whatever, whatever is your food of choice. Um, what is it to take a warm shower and like feel the warmth of the water and be like, oh, this is so good? Just the shower.

Mm-hmm.

Um, what kind of like oils or lotions do you like to put on your body if, if you like that kind of thing, and what is to just delight in that? So it's like letting your senses come to life. But back to the cake, I also see it as the Oreo on top of the cake, the pleasure. It's not the whole cake. That's maybe the connection and the potency. And then the pleasure, yeah, is like the Oreo on top.

Yeah.

Yeah. So what was coming to my mind is one of— so whenever I'm working with a man who's struggling with either erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation, one of the things I find is that they are so disconnected from their own experience and from their own pleasure that they, they don't have a reference point for what's happening. And so the analogy I use is I call it the steak analogy, which is— I don't know if you're a vegetarian, if you like steak, but let's just—

I'll eat a steak. Okay, I got you.

Go ahead. Great. So Imagine— so, so here's the scenario I set up. Imagine, Zach, that I give you the best steak from the most incredibly raised cow that has lived the best life possible. It's been massaged daily.

Mm-hmm.

It's eaten the best grass, and it's cooked by the best chef in the world for this steak. And it's served with exactly the sides that you love. And here's, like, the perfect glass of wine, and here's everything paired perfectly. And I'm going to sit you down at this table, but I'm going to make a whole bunch of rules about how you have to eat this steak. In order to eat this steak, you have to chew it 43 times, and each, each time you take a bite, you have to finish it in 72 seconds. And if it's 71 seconds or 73 seconds, you lose a point. And if you chew it 44 times or 42 times instead of 43 times, and I start coming up with all of these rules around—

I love that.

How you're supposed to eat it. Pretty quickly, you don't even notice that there's a steak anymore. Yeah, you're like, "I don't even know what's in my mouth." I'm like taking these bites because I'm just worried about doing it right. Am I doing it right? Am I doing the numbers? As opposed to if I say, "Hey Zach, have at it." Like dig in. You're gonna take a bite of the steak and you're just gonna look at it. You're gonna look at it on your fork and your mouth is gonna salivate and you're gonna be like, "Oh, I'm so ready to put this in my mouth." And you put it in your mouth and you just like moan with that pleasure of like, "Oh, that's so good." And then you chew it slowly and you just. Let the experience overwhelm you. That is the thing that gets missed in terms of dropping into the pleasure. So pleasure maybe is space for connection, is another way to talk about it as well, which is when you give yourself that, that room to indulge and lean into it, there's so much juiciness there.

Well, and I think it sounds like too, it's not just space for connection, it's space for sensation. And so there we are again at the subjective-objective piece of the equation. I had this jarring experience last night. I was watching— my daughter's been binging Game of Thrones. She's about, I don't know, she's somewhere in the middle of season 6 or something. She's watched it all in like a month. And I was trying to explain to her, I was like, no, you don't understand. Like, Jon Snow would die and we had to wait a year to know whether or not he was going to stay dead. And we spent the summer fretting about it. And then simultaneously, I was reading the books. I was reading these big, thick to, like, get ahead of the story somehow if I could. And I thought to myself, like, I haven't read a book made of paper...

Hmm.

...in a very long time. So it's not just sex or food. It's literally like, slow down. Don't binge the show. I had a thought the other day, it might even have been in LA, where I was like, I don't have time to read. I've got to watch Lanterns from last night. I don't have time to read. I have to watch TV.

Hmm.

Was the, was the thing that went through my head. And I was like, this is the part where I'm like, I think the world we live in in the last 5, 10, 15 years has cut us off from just experience things that are in real time, in real space, and right in front of us because we're all just consuming. I am, my daughter is consuming, you know, versus like actually experiencing things. And so I guess I'm trying to get that back a little bit or get back to that a little bit. I recently Gave up on my, um, Apple Watch. I'm back to my like college Ironman Timex Ironman. I'm like, love it. I don't know if anybody's texted me in the last 40 minutes or whatever. I have no idea.

Great.

Yeah, that can be okay. Like, yeah, it's totally— they can wait. Um, in the meantime, uh, what's the best way for people to learn about— learn more about where you are, how to work with you? What's the best way to get in touch with you guys?

Well, we've got Sex and the Psyche podcast. And you can find those on social, or Dr. Jenni Skyler on social. He's a dinosaur. He's not quite on social yet, but maybe you're going to come to.

Yeah, don't do it.

Don't do it. Don't do it. It solves no problems for you. Exactly. Well, yeah, yeah, there's a, there's a project that I'm starting to think about spinning up that would force me to.

But you could just do it under mine. We could just, we could rebrand it.

We'll figure it out.

We'll figure it out. Anyway, Dr. Jenni Skyler, with an I, the Intimacy Institute, Sex and the Psyche podcast. All this.

And you have, you have retreats people can come and spend a few days with you, or is that a thing or no?

Yeah, yeah. So we used to do couples retreats. Now they're private. So basically, if a couple wants an intensive is what we're calling it, just a 3-day— actually, they can make it as long as they want. I have a couple coming for 5 days, but it's catered to them. So they'll stay at a hotel or Airbnb in the area and we'll do more of like an intensive based on what they need. So what I typically do is like A few hours in the morning, then go for a hike or a walk or lunch, and then we do a few hours in the afternoon. And so I very uniquely cater it and personalize it to the individual couple coming.

Yeah.

So it's like a retreat, but for one person or two people.

Yeah. I've been looking for something, something like that for a few of my clients who definitely need more support than I can provide in my, in my office. But, um, uh, so I'm glad to know about the Intimacy Institute and I'll point people in your direction. Thanks again for coming on to Marriage Therapy Radio. Awesome.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you very much for having us.