An NPR Journalist, Her Audio Engineer Husband, and the Negotiation That Never Ends w/Yowei Shaw & Kyle Pulley

Thanks for coming on the show. I found out about you guys from another guest who has become a friend. And he was like, you gotta listen to this. So, I listened to Yowei Can't Speak Bro. So, that was pretty fun.

Cool.

And then you sent me, and then you said, yeah, I'll come on. And then you sent me a couple other ones. So, it's been really fun to kind of get to know your vibe. Tell me a little bit about Proxy, like as by way of just like, what is it? What are you hoping to do? What's your jam?

Yeah. So I used to make this NPR podcast called Invisibilia. It was like a documentary human behavior show. And at Proxy, I feel like it's the spiritual successor, but we focus on emotion. So we investigate emotional mysteries.

Mm-hmm.

And I just think that we should take investigating emotions seriously, not just in a therapeutic sense, but, like, you know, going to sources, researchers, and, like, people with lived experience. So, like, people write in with an emotional conundrum that makes them feel alone, and then I go looking for a stranger for them to talk to who gets it. And we've covered, you know, really intense stuff.

Yeah.

Like, you know, a mom who wrote in whose kids cut her off, and we connected her with, like, a woman who cut off her own parents. And we also do really stupid, fun problems, like the episode you listened to, Yowei Can't Speak Bro.

Yeah. Yowei Can't Speak Bro was about Kyle, a friend of yours, that spoke bro. I guess you guys can speak to this a little bit. And Yowei went and tried to figure out, like, why do conversations get so stilted between the two of us? And you sort of played— I guess you played proxy in that kind of translator in-between space between kind of how that works.

Some ways, yeah. I'm a bit of a code switcher when it comes to—

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

So, Yowei, you are— would you say you're an investigative journalist? Like, how would you— what would you say about yourself?

Well, I call myself an emotional investigative journalist.

Okay.

I started calling myself that as a bit at first because there's something kind of funny about, like, putting something like emotions and investigative journalist together. But yeah, now it's stuck. So yeah, that's Kyle.

What's your title? What's your label? What are you?

I'm a co-owner of a recording studio and a producer. And then I'm kind of a lot of things, a lot of different things to the show Proxy.

Yeah.

Well, one of the things I noticed is that you're sort of like this character who sort of comes in and is kind of Yowei's husband and he has things to say or ways to edit. And I have a wife, her name is Rebecca, and she has only been on the podcast one time. But the way I say, describe her is that she's like the hero of all my stories. Like, I never tell a story about Rebecca that denigrates her or makes her look bad at all. You know, and you kind of have that same thing. You sort of come in as the hero saving the day or providing some context or some point of view that is unique or interesting. But what is the real dynamic? I mean, just get straight to it. Like, between the two of you, are you good friends? Are you competitors? Are you Wonder Twins? Like, how do you think about that?

Yeah, I would say, you know, art imitates life a little bit.

Yeah.

We have this bit on the— like, I call him, call Kyle, my bedraggled podcast spouse. And it is true. Like, that dynamic is actually real. Kyle puts up with a lot from me. I ask him constantly to do things for the show, like appearing on this podcast. I begged Kyle. Yeah. And I would say there's a lot of grumbling on Kyle's end, and that's real. But the other parts to our relationship, I mean, we just— we both love the work that we do.

Yeah.

We both, like, are creative, you know, artist types. And that's how we met and bonded in the first place, was, like, bonding over the love of, you know, the creative arts. creative work we do. Yeah.

And I would say, you know, we're sort of each other's cheerleaders in that regard. Like, we're both, uh, we're not competitors.

No.

You know, we both like, yeah, really appreciate the, the art that each other does and try to support it. So.

Right on. And how did you meet? How— what was the— what's the origin story of Kyle and Yowei?

Well, we met on an app that feels ancient by now, OkCupid.

Okay.

Uh, yeah, Kyle had these cute pictures of him in a band, and I'm a sucker for musicians, unfortunately. And I pretended that I needed help recording my narration for a radio story. Because I saw that he was an audio engineer. Oh, he's just— Even though, like, I had actually just written an article on how to do this exact thing.

Yeah.

So that was, you know, it worked. So I don't regret it.

How early did you know that he wasn't just a cute guy you were flirting with, but the guy that you would end up like signing up to do life with? When did that happen for you? Or when did it happen for you, Kyle? Like, when did it shift from interesting sort of invitation to help the damsel in distress to something like, this is my queen or whatever?

Oh God, that hasn't really shifted much, has it?

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think, uh, I think our relationship has been like a long series of negotiations and figuring things out.

Mm-hmm.

And I think in the beginning, of course, there were the salad days, but pretty quickly, I think there was a lot of negotiation. And I just think the fact that we, you know, always came back to the negotiating table sort of told me that, yeah, this is the person that I want to be with. But you know, I think in the beginning we just sort of, you know, we both recognized that we're like kindred spirits and that we both just, you know, really, you know, work is very important to us.

That makes us sound so boring. I have an exact moment. We were having issues over one of your ex-girlfriends who was having some issues with boundaries. And I was like, wow, this is so annoying. But for some reason, I'm still putting up with this and, like, willing to work through it. And I feel like that's when I knew. I was like, wow, I'm not just— it would be so much easier to walk away.

Sure.

But for some reason, I'm suffering through this negotiation that went on for, you know, several months. And then another kind of, like, moment when it was like, oh, this is for real, is when I got the job at NPR. And that made life very much more difficult for us as a couple. And we still tried to make it work and did.

I listened to the episode, it might've been your first one, where you were grieving the loss of that job.

Yeah.

Why did the getting of that job make things harder?

Well, we live in Philadelphia. Kyle has a recording studio, a brick-and-mortar studio in Philadelphia. He has all his contacts in the indie punk DIY music scene in Philadelphia. And the job was in DC. And so at first I didn't, you know, I didn't want to take it because I didn't want to leave Kyle. But he was like, go for it. You should do this. This is like your dream. And so I had to get another place in DC, which was expensive. I went back and forth on Amtrak. I still have a little bit of Amtrak PTSD from all of those early morning, late night rides. You know, I felt like I was living—

Yeah.

living 2 lives, and that really was not fun. But, you know, we made it work somehow.

I get that. Well, probably through negotiation. I'm interested in this phrase. I use it a lot with clients. So tell me how you each understand, or an example or 2 of how you were negotiating making the relationship work.

Just to use the example of when she moved to DC, you know, I realized that there were concessions I needed to make. And I think there's, you know, Like, we always have to— yeah, we just always had to find ways to compromise. So, you know, I moved out of the warehouse that I lived in with all my friends and got moved into a house that we could be there together every week. You know, every weekend, every Thursday night, I would try to, like, really clean the house before she came. Friday nights, I would try to pick her up. I would try to make sure— take care of her throughout the weekend. And then early Monday morning, I would try to You know, I'd wake up at 4 or 5 AM or whatever and walk with her to the train. So, yeah, just doing what I could to, you know, realizing that she had a burden and trying to, you know, alleviate that burden or share that burden some kind of way.

Yeah. And he cooks. This is when it flipped. Because before, I was pretending to be someone who cooked and, like, you know, was capable of putting out an edible meal. And then, you know, when I was going back and forth and was just too tired to do any of that, to go grocery shopping, you know, to cook, Kyle just took over cooking. And so that was never a negotiation. It's so funny that you use that word, Kyle, because we never talked about it. You just, you just sort of started stepping up in that way, and I really appreciated that.

I think probably most negotiations in a relationship are unspoken. I don't, you know, I think that that happens a lot. I'm just, I was intrigued that you used the word because it seems like it's a part of your identity. It's something that you, at least in terms of what Kyle has named, like something that you are sort of proud of and maybe even rely on to help you make the relationship work. I do have a question for you though, Kyle. Like, we live in a world right now where we hear things about like toxic masculinity and male loneliness epidemic and all this other stuff. And you're describing a guy who was like, No, I wanted to make it work. I wanted to, like, choose to make sure my partner felt valued and enjoyed. And is that something that you learned how to do? Is that in you? Did you get that from your parents? Is that a— like, how did you become, like, a guy who was willing to negotiate?

Well, I think part of the thing we've both been negotiating throughout this, throughout our relationship, are just some of the gender roles that we have. But I think I had a good role model in my family, in particular my father, who wasn't afraid to cook. He had like 5 meals that he could cook. And we knew—

Which was your least favorite? Which was your favorite?

Oh, geez. I don't remember all of them, but one was like—

I heard you were cooking teriyaki. was pretty good.

That one kind of slapped, you know? But sometimes he would just make it so many times in a row, you'd be like, all right, come on, where's mom to rescue us?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But anyway, so yeah, I think I had— I think there was, especially on my dad's side of the family, a culture of having less rigid boundaries around gender roles and stuff.

Yeah.

But the gender roles still come up. I think that's one of the things that I've found interesting in our relationship over the years is, like, even though intellectually we're, like, not down with traditional gender roles and, like, the woman stays at home and cooks all the— like, we're not into that, obviously. But then, like, emotionally, they still sneak up on us and kind of power these long-running—

Yeah.

conflicts that we have. And that's been really, like, eye-opening to realize.

Okay. Uh, I'll bite. What— what can you tell me about the long-running conflicts that you have?

Let's see. You know, when we met, we were these, like, DIY freelancers with not a lot of money, trying to make our dreams happen. And that was— we were, like, in the same place in life. And then I got this fancy job at NPR, and suddenly I go to work at a place where everyone— where no one's wearing socks with holes. Everyone's very clean. I was like, oh, I gotta up my style. And I'm making a lot more money all of a sudden.

Yeah.

And that changed the dynamic between us, you know? Suddenly You know, I was at NPR for years. I was at Invisibilia for, like, 7 years. So presumably I might have, you know, before I got laid off, I was thinking, like, maybe I'm gonna be here for a very long time. And, you know, we're getting older. We're talking about maybe having children. We're talking about marriage. And I was reckoning with the idea of being the breadwinner. And I had never thought that I would be the breadwinner. You know? Like, it wasn't a fantasy of mine to, you know, be taken care of, but I just had absorbed those messages from culture somehow. And I think that I low-key expected someone else with a more responsible, quote-unquote, career to take care of me as, like, the artist who is, like, trying to do this hard thing. Yeah.

Okay.

And so, what do you know about the way that you do conflict? There's a very famous sort of marriage therapy statistic that about 2/3 of all the issues in any relationship are unsolvable. They're perpetual. They're never going to go away because they are baked into your personality. I'm an introvert, you're an extrovert. I'm messy, you're neat. I'm a spender, you're a saver. That sort of thing.

Yeah.

How do you Navigate those?

Well, I mean, I would say we did try therapy. We did go to couples therapy. And we also— we'd fight a lot. We're fighters. We're both really passionate people. And I think maybe some of— sometimes our family around us is like— sometimes we fight in front of our family. Like, and people—

Do you know your families? Are they in Philadelphia area? Like, do you spend time with your family?

Kyle's family is in the area. My family's not. But, um, yeah, we will fight it out. We have a big blowup periodically, and then we make up, and then we move on, and we don't hold it against each other. Um, it got— it took years for us to get to that place, to learn how to fight better. Like, in the past, you know, I might sleep in the other room for days and not talk to Kyle, you know? You know, just throw temper tantrums. You know, we got better at this. But I feel like we've recognized the rhythms of how we fight, which is—

Oh, interesting.

We do need to fight, and we're gonna get mad, and we— it's good. It's healthy. It's a release. We're gonna, like, say what we need to say, and then we're gonna move on.

Yeah.

So do you fight once a week, once a month, once a quarter? Like, how often do you do this blow-up thing that you need to do to release?

Maybe, like, once a quarter.

Yeah. We recently had a ridiculous fight about staycation.

Yeah.

Like, I— we were both overworked and, you know, needed a vacation. And Kyle had the brilliant idea of scheduling, like, a few days at home before going to the cabin so we could, like, you know, do whatever we want around the house, maybe go to a happy hour in Philly. And I just wasn't into doing the staycation. I just was like, I don't— I don't know. Like, I'm just— I'm so stressed. I don't know if, like, I can take time off work to do this staycation. And then it turned out that I just needed us to have a proxy meeting.

Hmm.

Because we'd skipped our previous 2 proxy meetings. And so then once we just went to my office, Kyle got on the whiteboard, and he was like, all right, like, tell me what's up. And then we just went through all the things that I needed to talk about. And then I was all better. And then we went on a bike ride.

Okay, but what's a proxy meeting?

Oh, okay. So we try to have these weekly proxy meetings because Kyle is, you know, the person that I can talk to most about this show. And he helps with, like, everything from Excel sheets and accounting and social media, like, literally anything and everything.

Mm-hmm.

And we now have these weekly meetings to discuss proxy business because Otherwise, it would just leak into all parts of our lives.

Like it did.

Like it did with the staycation. Exactly. Exactly.

So you went— when you say you had a proxy meeting, you literally went and had a business meeting about all the things that were relevant to the podcast.

Yes.

Kyle literally got out his markers and started— and he started also writing, drawing some comics as well. That's part of his signature.

Try to make it fun.

Oh yeah, I think I heard that maybe comic bit, or what was I listening to about the comic? Oh, I was listening to this podcast called Dead Eyes. Have you heard of Dead Eyes?

I love Dead Eyes.

Well, you know, I got a little nervous because I was listening to your show and then somebody put me onto Dead Eyes and I was like, these people are real podcasters. They like really know what they're doing in terms of constructing, you know, a narrative and putting it together and having these like side quests over here with this audio from so-and-so. And he draws this comic. I guess there's a bit about how he drew a comic after he got fired by Tom Hanks.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

And that's the only way he knows actually what happened because he was his grief was this 4-page comic that had all this information that he found out about 10 years later.

But yeah, it's funny. Yeah, I love that podcast too.

I interviewed him for my show, actually.

Oh yeah?

Yeah.

I'm only about 3/4 of the way through the first season. So I don't— my friend who put me onto it, she was like, don't skip ahead. Don't do any spoilers. So no spoilers for Dennis.

No spoilers.

No spoilers.

I am interested in this other thing you tucked in there, though. You tried couples therapy. How was that experience? What was it like? Was it successful? Was it valuable? Why not? Why?

I feel like it was— we would do it for, you know, periods of time. It seemed to me like a lot of it is just like just trying to get you to have some better habits with regards to communication. So—

I feel like our therapist was on Kyle's side, and I still stand by that.

Okay. How did you experience that?

How did you make that determination? No, I'm just kidding. I think that this dynamic with our fights would happen where, because I was compromising so much by having to travel back and forth and just pay for another apartment in DC, which is expensive, it sort of became this trump card. You know? And I would have the upper hand in these fights. Not— looking back, I realize this is not fair or a good thing, but like, that's what was portrayed.

It's also made up.

Oh, it's totally made up. It's totally made up. But we would— this is how it would go down. And so then in couples therapy, the therapist was doing her job and like listening to Kyle's side and like, we are equal partners and players on this field. And I was like, how dare you?

Yeah.

Yeah. But it was helpful. It was helpful. We learned to communicate better, I would say.

Do you still have her as a resource? Do you rely on her from time to time, or did you graduate?

We graduated. And also insurance, and I lost my job, and blah, blah, blah.

Right.

But yeah, I would say the impacts— I had a personal therapist who I think had more of an impact on us. She had this thing that she would say where, like, in an energy field— bear with me.

Okay.

If someone in the dynamic is taking up all this space around, let's say, in our case, like, I felt like I had to shoulder the responsibility for our financial future. So, I'm worrying, worrying, worrying, taking up all that space. That's not leaving enough space for Kyle. to show up. And if I were to step back a bit energetically, then there's room for Kyle to just organically step in. And I feel like that piece of advice, I know it sounds so annoying and woo-woo, but it has helped us so many times in so many different areas of our relationship.

Very specifically, the idea that if you back up and create more space for Kyle, things tend to go better. Is that what you mean?

So, for example, recently we used it around worrying about the future. You know, we are trying to have kids. We want to have kids. You know, I'm making this new podcast. It's scary. We don't know if it's going to, you know, be able to be the thing that pays all the bills. And I was worrying, worrying, worrying. And I was like, Kyle, can you please take up more of the worrying energy so that I can just relax a bit?

Right.

Like, I just need you to, like, worry a bit more in front of me so that I feel like I don't have to do the worrying for both of us. And so he started to do— I, like, periodically have to remind him about this, and then he worries a bit more, and I'm like, okay, great. I don't— I don't have to worry for both of us.

Yeah. Kyle, what do you think about the energy theory here?

Do you— are you—

because I might have misinterpreted it when you first explained it. I thought it was more like, you need to stop being so big and expansive and needy or whatever it is that the big energy would represent and just pull back so that he gets to be himself. But what you're actually saying is, if I pull back that energy, It's like, I need to inhabit some of that space. To fill it in.

Yes.

That worry or that energy or that effort needs to be shared by 2 people.

Yeah.

In some kind of way. And you know what? I think it's also, you have to understand it's not fair. It's never gonna be 50/50. It's never gonna be even. That's part of the negotiation. But there needs to be some sort of shared whatever.

Yeah.

Do you have your own asks from time to time?

Good question.

For me?

Yeah. I mean, like, do you, do you have to pull back a little bit and say, Yo-Away, I need you to fill in some space here?

Um, yeah. I mean, I think a perennial fight is just like, you know, Yo-Away's more extroverted— or sorry, more introverted. I'm more extroverted. And so, um, yeah, I'm, I'm always kind of asking her to try to, you know, come out and connect more with friends or family, do more Do more things in that nature.

Yeah. Learn how to smoke a cigar, basically.

And you did the other day tell me that I need to clean up more of the cat hair since I was the one who made us get cats.

Yeah, that's it.

There's a lot of cleaning requests for me. So I don't know if I'm meeting— I don't know if I'm fulfilling my end of the bargain, but I'm going to try. I'm going to try.

Yeah.

Cool. And then you mentioned a couple of times that you're interested in Like having children and expanding your family. How did you come to that? How did you, or how's that going for you? Negotiating that? Or is it just a, are you just in the process?

You know, it was something that we have talked about for a long time. And it was kind of always this idea like, oh, well, you know, we need to figure out things with our career first. And then at some point we were both just like, we kind of just Need to do it.

Yeah.

It's just time. We kind of just need to figure it out.

Yeah.

And I feel like it all ties back to negotiating who's going to— how are we going to meet our financial needs? Who's going to shoulder the responsibility? And when I got laid off, that was a really big turning point for our relationship because suddenly I'm not the financially secure one.

And when was that in time? Was that a year ago? Was that 2 years ago?

It was in 2023. And I was a complete mess. I was just hanging out in bed, eating fried chicken, drinking Prosecco. And Kyle was so supportive. He never made me feel ashamed, never made put pressure on me to hurry up and get another job. I mean, I will say that we had a very good union contract at NPR, so I had severance, and that obviously helps a lot. There's a material aspect of that. Yeah. But there was just— you just like— and then you, Kyle, you telling me to just go for it with the show, even though it's so uncertain and letting me use our savings.

Yeah.

And our severance, and just sort of really put your faith in me. And that was a really big turning point, 'cause I felt like, oh, especially now with Kyle mastering the show, helping me do Excel sheets for the show, being my constant partner to talk to about stuff with the show. I really feel like he's taking up energy in the, like, shouldering the financial— just, like, trying to help me be the breadwinner. You know, he's, like, literally helping me try to make this show be a success so that it can pay our bills.

Yeah. And I mean, it's like, if we're figuring— you know, if we can figure this out, then we can figure something else out too. you know, we can figure out the kids.

Yeah, you totally can. I mean, mine are 19 and 23, and I've been saying for years, I think that parenting adult children is harder than parenting young children.

Really?

But, you know, the other thing is people are, they're like, I don't know if we're ready to have a baby. And I'm like, you're not, you're totally not ready to have a baby. Nothing makes you ready to have a baby except having a baby.

You know?

Yeah. And so, you know, I used to I used to hear clients describe 2 different patterns for me. And one was, we wanna live our life and have a lot of fun and take advantage of things so that, you know, then we're gonna have kids. Or they'll say, we wanna have kids right away so that, you know, by the time they graduate and leave, we're still young enough to go have fun and do all that stuff. And I was sort of like, you realize your entire philosophy of when you're gonna have kids is based on when they're not around, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like, that's the whole thing. I am. I want to— I want to help. I want to help you be successful. I want your show to be successful. Tell us one more time about it and how I or anyone who's listening can— can be of help. I mean, I know, go listen to Proxy, but—

That's so nice, Zach. Yeah. Yeah. So the show is called Proxy. We investigate emotional mysteries. If you have a niche emotional conundrum you feel alone with and would like to talk to somebody with relevant experience, you can email us at [email protected]. We are always taking cases. Um, and yeah, go listen. I love that you call them cases. There's just, like, lots of different issues we've taken on by now, you know, like asexuality. Um, you know, we have a non-binary listener who is afraid that her husband still sees her as a woman. We had an episode about another person who has a very active inner narrator and can't stop telling stories, and she's worried it's interfering with her life. So there should be something for everyone.

Is there anything that you would put squarely in the category of, this is for people who are interested in exploring a marital topic?

Yes. We had an episode called Bisexual Wife Guy. So this listener, his wife left him after coming out as bisexual.

Mm-hmm.

And he was very happy for her, but also very confused and devastated, and didn't want to burden her with all of his questions. And so I found him a woman who had basically done the same thing to her ex-husband.

Mm.

And she happened to be my former boss. So, we have this conversation, I facilitate it, and it's incredible. Like, it's really— like, that's what I hope to do with the show is, like, bring back the drama of conversations, real human intimate conversations. Yeah. I love that. Having an encounter and discovering things together. And, like, helping each other, strangers helping each other try to talk through a thing and sharing experiences that could be helpful. And I would just say, I feel like Kyle has sort of been my proxy in this whole trying to start a podcast thing. Because Kyle, I would complain to you like—

I was like, yeah, you're starting a band. You got to, you know.

Which Kyle has started many. And so putting that in that frame was so helpful because you're like, you got to do self-promotion. I hate self-promotion. Yeah, me too. He's like, you know, it's like a band puts out a record. You got to tell people about the record. Yeah.

You got to do some press photos.

Exactly.

You got to stand in front of a wall in your leather jacket, you know? Got to take some press photos.

And you have to— and when people ask you how it's going, He drops me off for conferences. Like, what are you gonna say when people ask you how it's going? And then I always say how it's really going. He's like, no, no, no, you say it's going great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, well, I'm into it. I will, uh, I will check out that one, which is called Bisexual Wife Guy. I'll make sure to listen to that one too. Uh, we'll be happy to point people to—

What's the episode, Yowei? What's the episode where the, where the couple is negotiating The— where one of the people in the marriage transitioned.

Oh, that's called Alex—

They stay married. So that one's—

Yeah, that one's called Alex's Husband Is Too Straight.

I love it. I love it. Well, and I'll throw my hat in too. If I can ever be a resource for some of your cases, I hope that you'll let me know. Kyle, can I help you at all? Like, do you— we need to like promote a band or something on here? Like, what's the way to make sure that we—

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. If, you know, if, if your marriage is, you know, things are tough and you write a sad song and you need somewhere to record it, you know, I do lots of those.

Right on.

Yeah. No, my studio is called Headroom Studios in Philadelphia.

Right on. So if we're looking for audio support in Philly, do you need to be, do you need to be like local to benefit from audio support like that? Or like I could—

No, I mean, it depends. You know, it depends. If I'm a band, I got to come in there, but If you're a band, but, you know, some people are, are, you know, producers and will, you know, make tracks on their laptop and I can, or, you know, record at a different studio. So yeah, there's a, there's, there's stuff I do that's remote all the time.

Cool. And you should say some of the bands that you worked with that are cool.

Oh yeah, sure. I'll drop some names.

Drop some names.

Yeah. I've worked with bands like Dr. Dogg, Alex G, J. Somm, Hopalong. If those mean anything to anybody. Yeah, cool.

They mean nothing to me, but I will, I will be, I will be discovering. I like finding new music.

Yeah, sometimes people are like, anybody I've heard of? And I'll drop a few names and they're like, no, I don't know.

And I'm like, what about Oasis? Yeah, not quite.

I just took, I just took my 19-year-old to The Gorge, which is a venue out here. Dave Matthews has a Labor Day residency. So we saw 3 nights of Dave Matthews Band. You know, 20,000 people, it's massive. But I'm definitely more of a little— I'm definitely more of a mainstream music taste guy than some of the underground stuff.

So, you took your daughter to see somebody that you wanted to see?

Yeah. Well, she's into it. Like, she has her own relationship with the band. And she— I grew up in Virginia. So, I was going to college right around where he was getting popular.

Charlottesville?

Yeah. So, I went to college in Williamsburg, William& Mary. And so, he was playing in Charlottesville and Richmond. And so, I know a lot of the first like decade of his music, and it's like into my— it's like in my body. But then, she is much more familiar with like the last 20 years, but she's only 19. So, she's got her own experience. So, we go and we can kind of like cross over a little bit. She's teaching me his stuff. I'm teaching her stuff.

But So cute. That's hopefully your future, Kyle. Maybe not with Dave Matthews, but with another band.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Knock on wood.

Yeah.

Well, thanks for coming on.

Thanks, you guys, for coming on. No, I'm so glad that you came on. I'm so glad that I learned about you, and I can't wait to be of support to Proxy. And, uh, yeah, I'm just glad to know you both. Thank you so much for coming on Marriage Therapy Radio.

Thank you. Thank you for having us.