Resolving Dissonance: What Bands and Marriages Have in Common w/Ron and Catrina

I understand that you have changed your clocks for the last time.

Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

How does that feel? Do you know yet?

We are mourning people, so we're kind of. At least. I don't know how you feel about it, but for me, I was a bit grumpy because I like to get up at, like, 5 a.m. and go for a run and stuff, and now it's going to be dark longer, but it's good for like, summertime, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

It'll be light at 9:00 still sometimes. Yeah.

But yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just in Seattle, so I'm. I have the same, sort of the same weather system, you know, sort of light pattern that you have, I guess. But yeah, we're not on board with the whole, not changing the clock thing yet, so. Okay, we'll find out.

I wonder if that'll follow soon.

I hope so. I think we should do more following Canada's lead, but I don't I don't know. You know, who knows? It's it's a crazy time to be alive. I guess so. Yeah? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. We're all good.

Ron, I'm fan boying a little bit. I love your show. As I've said before. It's the. It's the coolest, Katrina. And I'm glad to meet you. Welcome to marriage therapy radio. Thank you. I understand you work also for me. Yeah, I do.

I've worked with them longer than Ron.

Ten years.

Yeah. Crazy.

What is. What is your. What's your job?

I'm a graphic designer for the media team. So I make all of the thumbnails that you see on YouTube and everything on Instagram, all the thumbnails there. So. And I do a lot of their product, sorry, physical product, not digital product. But now I just do mostly graphic design for the media team.

Right on. Do you do music? Are you music person to.

I'm not.

Not at all.

Okay. When I was little I played piano and violin, but I don't currently play any instruments.

Right? Yeah, I know how you can learn. You can get a subscription to this app that will teach you how to play.

Learn drums in one day.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a really funny video that just dropped on the drum channel today. All those guys ambushed me in the studio. They they tricked me into sitting at the kit because they were trying to set the height and, like, the focus for the cameras on a tall drummer. And I was like. So I sat down, and then, sure enough, Brandon pops into the control room and says, hey, buddy, you're gonna learn drums in a day. Yeah. So we did that whole video and that just came out today, and we're before the interview started, we were sitting here laughing. It's pretty fun.

So I am sure that I will watch it.

Yeah, it's a fun one. Yeah.

Do you know that there is a Katrina Jackson teaching piano on the on YouTube? And it's definitely not you.

I did not know that.

Really? That's so funny.

I was like, I need to go learn about this lady, too, and if I can, like. And I was like, I don't think that Ron is married to her. Oh, like, I think that's I don't think they're quite a match, but.

You never know.

Yeah, sometimes you do. So I think.

Those guys. So I'll take you.

You're. Where did you where did you grow up?

Small town called Chilliwack. It's where we are right now. But, yeah, it's about, Missouri's in Abbotsford, British Columbia, and we're about 30 minutes from that. So we got a bit of a commute in the mornings, but. Yeah.

And how did you end up there? Like, how did you end up just music a thing for you? For you, Ron, for the two of you. I mean, it's like, how did you end up choosing music as a as a career, as a as a venue for your life?

Yeah, actually, it's kind of a long story for me. Interesting though. I was originally in jazz band. I started doing that in middle school and played into high school. I didn't do it all of high school, but I really enjoyed playing bass guitar. And, you know, we're kind of the Bible belt of Canada. We both grew up in church, and, you know, most people who do that and getting into music in one way or another, and I had fully planned to go do music education at university. And it's kind of funny because now we we play in a band together. But one of my friends who I was going to go to school with ended up breaking up with his girlfriend and calling me five days before school was supposed to start and said, hey, man, I'm not going to be your roommate. I'm, I'm going to go to Europe.

And I was kind of like, what? So I had to bail on that school. And I was like, well, I'm just going to go do general studies because I can't, you know, redo an audition or whatever. So I ended up going to a local university, and my wife and I had been friends at the time, and I knew she was going there. And I was like, maybe I can pick up.

This girl. So you you were friends before? I mean, you you were in each other's world and each other.

Before you went to the same high school. We never dated in high school, but I knew her and we were friends. And so it was really funny that we ended up at the same university, but music kind of fell by the wayside for me, and I ended up getting really into theater. Musical theater.

Because of me.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I said to him, you should. Oh, you should come to the theater. I'm doing theater.

Yeah. And so we are a musical theater family. So.

Really?

Okay. My older daughter, she's 23. She's moving to New York right now. Oh, wow. To Tuesday. So she will be there by the time this comes out. But she is, Yeah. She had her first role. She was Amaryllis in music, man. Oh, yeah. Which is she was nine. She started working when she was nine, so she's been in a bunch of stuff, and then she went up. Anyway, she's got dreams to go to New York and kind of burst into the theater scene. Not so much in the musical time anymore, but, but yeah, we grew up and we have all that stuff. So that's part of your jam, too, Katrina. Musical theater.

I did theater. I always kind of chickened out of doing musical theater, but I did lots and lots of acting and costume design.

Do you have favorites? Do you have, like, favorite parts or favorite? Like, like iconic Katrina roles for yourself?

Yeah, I did one show, well, our university that we went to in the theater program, they always did a Shakespeare every year.

Okay.

So my favorite role that I got to play, I got to play Ariel in The Tempest.

Okay.

So that was my favorite role.

Very cool.

Would you play Stefano?

Yeah, I was.

That's awesome.

I had a couple songs.

That's awesome.

Yeah. And then. Yeah, I taught high school for years. Taught musical theater. My my first gig I couldn't figure out because the seniority in Canada at the time, or especially in our province, it was quite difficult to get a job as a teacher, and I couldn't figure out why. I had gotten this theater job ahead of all my friends, and who were also theater teachers. And I showed up and the head theater guy passed me a score, a full orchestration, and I.

Was like.

Oh, like I got hired to do the music. And that was my first re-introduction to music. And so I taught it. Did orchestra.

Wow. Yeah. So. So okay, so your friends, you end up in school together. How do you end up together? How do you end up who's how does that shift from where friends to were more than friends.

Oh, that's so funny, I just remembered. Oh, yeah. We're talking about our relationship.

We're just getting warmed up. Good job. Yeah.

Okay. Well, do you want to start, or do you want me to start?

I could start.

Sure.

Well, I had dated a few other people in the past and and did not great. The relationship I had before I was with Ron, and I was really left in a very hard place, very difficult spot where I just wasn't really okay. So during that time when I was still dating what other person, I kind of started to notice how I felt when I was around Ron. I was like, man, I wish I could just be around someone who was like, funny and made me laugh and made me feel like really great. And I noticed that and ended up breaking up with this other guy. And then I knew that I had feelings for Ron, but I was still just like to hurt and not great.

I needed to work on myself for a while, so we were getting to know each other more and more, and I knew that he had feelings for me, and I knew I had feelings for him. But I had told him, I'm like, you know what? I just I'm not wanting a relationship right now and said I needed time to work on myself first. And then I heard 1st November evening that he had gone on a date with someone else, and I was just like, nope.

I'm ready. Nope.

Making it happen. But I was very clear with him beforehand. Even. I was like, you know, I just, I don't want to date anyone unless I know I'm going to marry them. Unless there's a really strong chance that, yeah, I can spend the rest of my life with him. And yeah, actually, I was praying about it and I'm just like, yeah, just I need I just want to make it work, and I want this to work. And I'm kind of rambling of it. Yeah. It all nervous when I talk about this.

That's okay. And then run in parallel. Where are you. What's your what's happening for you while she's over here? Just doing all this discernment and prayer and considering and then. Yeah, observing. Like what's what's happening for you?

We've always been both of us have always been very driven people. We've always had something big that we're working on. I don't think we ever I think any of our friends would, would always say, oh, yeah, Roman, Katrina, just hanging out there, just chillin like we always have had something huge. And so when Katrina says, like we took dating each other seriously, I think we were just like, man, my life has no time to waste. Like, if we're going to be together, we want to make sure, like we're both into this for the right reasons. We yeah, we were determined pretty early on, and I think maybe that's why we've worked so well together is just we've always had goals and things we wanted to achieve. And the relationship was one of those things. And so when she said she wasn't ready, I really appreciated it.

I like had a lot of respect for her and I was like, okay, cool, thanks for being honest with me and not stringing me along. And, yeah, I don't want to say, like I moved on right away, but I was like, okay, like I have to. And so I did.

And then you go out on this date in November. Yeah.

Well, we started dating officially on January 1st, so I got my button to gear and I was like, hey.

Yeah.

Let me be clear now. I'm ready.

Yeah yeah yeah.

Right on. And okay, so now you're dating. It's January 1st. And when was that? January 1st, 2007.

2011.

2011 okay. And I think you told me, you you you're now you're married and you've got children. Who are they?

Oh, our youngest is four is Rowland. And we have another six year old whose name is Corrine. Okay. Our oldest is Gail, and she is eight.

Right on 4224468. Yeah. Very cool. What do you say? How do you how do you think about yourselves now versus, say, 2011? Do you have a are you the same? Are you different as has parenting changed you or is it you? So instead he wins the race. So do you have a theme for that?

Oh man, that's a tough question, as I'm sure you would agree. We've definitely had radical change. Yeah. You just don't know. It's like a whole new, type of life. It really forces you to live for others in a way that I think for me it happened by as well. Like, it's just like I was very philosophical when I was young, and I had a lot of big questions, and I really was determined to have the answers to those questions. And then when I had our daughter, I was like, oh, this is what life is about. I don't have to wonder anymore. Like, you know, all these things. I'm okay with being uncertain because I'm like holding my certainty. In a word sense. So that's a kind of a vague answer, but that seems to be the theme for me at least. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I always knew I wanted kids, and that's one thing I liked about Ron, is that he knew for sure that he wanted kids, and nothing can really. Everyone says that nothing can prepare you for becoming a parent. And like, it's it's true. The whole.

Yeah.

Theme of parenthood, I think is just like Trial by Fire.

Yeah. People ask me all the time, they're like, I don't know if I'm ready to have kids. And I'm like, you're not.

No you're not.

And you will once you have kids, and then you'll learn how to be ready to have those kids that you have. But yeah, I think or you won't and that'll be terrible. But yeah, no, nobody's ever ready to have kids.

It's just the fact that you just show up. You just. You just have to show up.

Yeah.

And that's all you can. All you can do show up and try to keep your cool.

Yeah, right.

Though you learn so much more about yourself, you know.

Okay. All right. So if your family was a band. Yeah. What what what John were would they be. What? John, what would you be?

Improvizational. Jazz, perhaps.

Okay.

All right. Like screamo mixed in our middle child is just very loud.

Yeah.

You're gonna be a drummer.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Would you. What would you say about the two of you if the two of you were, what, John? Or is your marriage, would you say?

Oh, that's a good question.

Well, you know where I'm going.

I think something harmonic.

Okay.

Yeah. We are different and yet always in tune with one another. So corny.

So dumb. Exactly. It's, like, really accurate, though. Yeah, yeah.

Right on.

Yeah.

This is the reason I asked you this. Because we're about to do covers on the spot with your relationship.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So uncovers on the spot. You have bands come in. They they they they are whatever they are there in imo band or a punk rock band or a, you know, a Icelandic hard rock band or something like that, and you play them a song they've never heard before, and they have the day, the afternoon, whatever. What do you think? Like six hours or 6 to 8 hours?

Yeah. The quickest was 48 minutes. The longest was 12 hours.

Okay. To recreate this song in their own style, they can change anything they want as long as the song comes out. And it is their version of their song. Yeah. No no no. I have watched so many of these. I'm so. I'm so.

So sweet.

Thank you. So today we're going to try something similar. Instead of covering a song, I'm just going to give you like a relationship idea. And I want to hear how you cover it as you're like harmonic band. These are things that come up in my office all the time, and I hear I have my own kind of canned theories about these things. And you can you can change whatever you want. You just have to make sure that this is about a Katrina. That's all I want to know is like how you guys think about these different topics. Okay, okay. You ready?

Yep.

Number one, every couple fights, the question is whether the fight makes the relationship stronger or weaker. How do the two of you think about that through the lens of your of a relationship?

I have a tendency to speak first, so I'm resisting speaking first.

Okay. Can you repeat the question? Everyone?

Everybody fights. Yeah. Does fighting make a relationship stronger or weaker?

I can jump in. Oh, okay.

I take a minute for it to go from here into here. I think that it makes everyone stronger, for sure. But you have to find a way to make to understand the fight from the other person's perspective.

Okay. So how do you do that?

I think you need to really have empathy and put yourself in the other person's shoes. So if Ron and I have a disagreement on something, then I need to try to see where he's coming from and understand the context surrounding that. And I know often now more later in our relationship. He does that now. Before earlier, it wasn't so much that it was always I was trying to put myself into his shoes, but he wouldn't necessarily reciprocate that. And that's okay because that has changed. And he had a realization where he needed to do that more, and I appreciate that. So everyone fights. Yeah, I think everyone will have disagreements and you'll misunderstand the other person's intention for saying something or not understand why they're saying something. Or maybe there's grouchy, I don't know, but trying to understand it from the other person's perspective.

Doing that, I think, will always result in becoming stronger in a relationship.

Yeah. And I think even this interaction that we just had is a good example of this. I'm the fact that Katrina took a second to answer is very indicative of her personality. And that's something that I've learned is like speaking of on the spot, I'm very good at having an answer on the spot. And when you're having an argument, just because you're winning the argument doesn't mean you're right about the the conversation. And I've learned that Katrina oftentimes has great insight and wisdom on a thing, and I just need to give her a second with it. So whereas my instinct is to solve this right away, quickly and efficiently and yeah, if I like just blitz her with my argument, I'm probably going to come out on top. But if I just shut the hell up and let her process it, we're going to get a much more balanced back and forth. That's something that I've learned.

Who I got all these band metaphors wrapped up in here. But who who hits the wrong note first?

Me.

How do you do that?

I get snippy, okay? I can be very passive aggressive, and it's very unhelpful and it's very ingrained into my being. And I'm trying to work it out of myself. But I will very often hit the wrong note before the song even starts.

Oh, wow. Okay. All right. And then who brings the band back together?

We both do.

We both do.

For sure. In different ways.

Yeah. Okay. How do you do that? Yeah.

I think for me, the biggest thing that Katrina needs before we get into an argument is that she needs to know that I have considered her point of view. And so I take a lot of time to articulate what she's feeling. In a way that she agrees with. And then we proceed.

Okay. Yeah.

That sound right?

Yeah.

I think so. Yeah. Does that sound right?

It's your answer.

Well, no, I'm. Maybe I'm not.

I mean, does does Ron do a good job of, like, really trying to understand and and reciprocate your point of view in a way that brings the band back together? Is that a thing that happens for you?

I would say it's not always expressed, but I know him well enough that I know he has done that and I trust him to have him out. We talked about we've talked about him doing that and I, I yeah, I believe that that he does do that. And sometimes he says it, sometimes. It doesn't. Yeah. But we we've argued through enough things. We've had enough hit enough wrong notes as you say. Gone off. Gone off beat. Yeah. To know that it can come back together and it's just you just have to be observant. I would say of what the other person is, is doing. Yeah. Yeah. Just like a good jazz band, the longer they play together and improvise, the easier kind of becomes, too. Yeah. Beat and adjust.

Yeah. And if you're tired, the show sucks.

Yeah, I'm sure.

I'm sure. That's right.

Well, one of the things that's been interesting about watching your show, watching coverage on the spot, is having all these different bands come in and see that they do resolve differences in really different kinds of ways. Some are more collaborative and some are more confrontational. And they, you know, you kind of sometimes I wonder, like, who's in charge here and like, how do they, you know, who's who's running, like, who's the real leader of this situation. And even that process gets sorted out and kind of this way that for me shows that there's not one way to do it. There's not a single way to get this thing. But when they sort of all agree that we know what the task is, the task is to create the song, you know, then they some they can, you know, they can sort of stay on that.

I think a couples lose sight of that a lot, that they don't have a clarity about what the end goal is. You know, particularly if the end goal begins to look like I need to win this over you. You know, then that's where conflict kind of goes off the rails. So there has to be you do have to learn how to bring the band back together and maybe over and over again. Yeah. Who was the guy who was a country guy and he, like, he was having a hard time, or at least that's the way he got edited. And he was like, I got to go. And he, like, took like 40 minutes to just go sit by himself and worked this whole thing out. Even that was wisdom. You know.

I love Korb, his chord line.

Yeah. That's exactly.

What was.

The Canadian artist. And he is one of the coolest people we've had on the show in my mind. Yeah. He I'm. I'm choked. I broke one of my rules. I didn't have a camera on him because there's a beautiful moment that happened behind the scenes in that episode. It was so cool. He was just in his head about honoring the artist. And this is something that's tricky because, like me, honest, the shows not really about covers at all. It's just like a framework. Yeah. So the audience has something to hold in their head while the artist is working and yeah, you know, but he was like, I got to do this song justice. And he was. I don't want to say he was like, spiraling, but he was just like, so fixated on, like really nailing it.

And it was a what was the song? It was like an iconic song.

To Green Day.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

So what did he say? He said, I don't really like this song, but.

I, but. I like.

The, the, the art and I respect the artists and I respect the process. And so I think he was really wrestling anyway.

Go ahead.

Well his buddies were like, they came up to me and I wish I'd had this on camera. I didn't, but they said, you know, I think if we just brought him a beer, it would, it would take him out of it. Yeah. And I was like, well, bring him a beer. They brought him a beer and he's like, all right, I'm good to.

Go and.

Eat a beer in the final take. He still got it. But it was such a cowboy moment. I was like, oh my gosh. And I think there's parallels to that with my wife to.

Just kind of. Yeah, yeah. Very cool.

So that was a great episode.

All right. So my next one is what do you think about this. The best relationships have to keep evolving their sound. This I've sort of asked you this question already about how you guys have changed over time, but what's changed most about the sound of your relationship over time?

Personally, I think we protect our time together more than we did before.

Oh yeah.

We are more disciplined with making sure. I mean, I have a tendency to, like, obsess with things. So. And even now, I still have my hobbies that I love. But I will choose to do them at times that still allow us to have enough time together, like I do jiu jitsu. And that'll be like early early morning before anyone's awake. And so we both exercise and we'll do that on our lunch hours. But like our evenings we protect much more.

Yeah, I would say early on in our relationship, like Ron is extremely social and. Extremely introverted and extroverted. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Extroverted. Yeah. I'm I'd say I'm on the introverted side of things. I can be. Yeah.

My wife and I cannot be more different. She's the extrovert. And I'm like, nope. What did she say last night? She and my daughter were going to a movie and they're like, were either going to go to the 2:00 movie so we can hang out with you when you get home, or we're going to go to the 630 movie. And I was like, I think you should go to the 630 movie. That would be good. Yeah, that would be you guys will have a lot of fun at the 630 movie while I'm at home by myself binging YouTube.

Yeah. That's that's exactly kind of us. Yeah, yeah. Think so. Yeah. So I would say it was a lot faster paced early in our relationship just because I. Ron loved going out and doing things so much or having lots of people over. I would say yes, because it's not that I don't enjoy them, it's my my social cup runs out a lot faster. And so I found I was pushing myself unhappily. So to allow all these social gatherings and going and doing. Lots of things. Very busy. And I think a lot of that has come with having kids too, is it's like Ron said, we protect our time together a lot more. And Ron kind of understands that. I need kind of like a quiet evening where I just get to talk my brains out. I just get to talk and talk and talk about everything I want to talk about.

And he'll sit there and he'll listen, and we'll have some back and forth and chat about it, or or usually we'll make steak after our kids go to bed. Yeah. Right on. Some have some. Good steak.

Like they get the, they get the, the second tier food and you get the quality.

Good quality beef. Yeah. Yeah.

It caught on though. Now they're like are you guys making steak tonight. Will there be some for breakfast tomorrow?

Yeah. Yeah I get some of the leftovers if there's some left. But for sure. But now it's a lot more. We'll sit here in our kitchen and we'll just eat steak and have a bottle of wine. And it's quiet and it's chill. And that's. What I. Yeah. A lot more. So I'd say it's a lot slower pace now. It's a lot of a slower song than. A faster for sure.

One thing that's funny too is like I still weekly get together. I've had the same best friend group since I was like, seriously, in kindergarten. And like, I had multiple friends, 8 or 9 friends from that same group, and we still hang out weekly. But we we do. I have a hot tub here at my place. We meet at 5 a.m. every Friday morning. So they were. G's that we hold court. We talk about the week.

And that's insane.

Disturb anyone you know?

That's how I get it done.

Yeah.

That's insane.

The social time.

Yeah.

For sure.

Okay, I got one more. Great. Collaborations require both trust and tension. How does that how does trust and tension play in your relationship?

Well, kids, are the tension.

Okay. In my line of work, we call it stress and safety. Therapist has to provide both stress and safety. If there's too much stress and not enough safety, people don't change. If there's too much safety and not enough stress, people don't change. So you have to you have to give them. You have to provide both enough of both for there to be a container for for growth and for, for evolution, you know, and I guess I just wonder how you appreciate that in your own day to day life.

Well. I would I would say it's a unique thing we have working together, because a lot of people look at us kind of like, whoa, like, what's that like? And it's never been a problem for us. I don't know exactly why that is, but I think there is certainly like we both have work stress, that's for sure. When I was in a different career, we would it's almost weird like that. Sort of our stress is like unspoken now. Like we both come home and we're like, oh yeah, that was the thing.

Know thing.

And I don't know, we just kind of provide safety for each other. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if I have a good answer for this one.

What do you think? Yeah. I'm not totally certain how to answer it either. I think relationship means all stress and safety.

Or trust and tension.

Trust and tension.

Well, we certainly have crazy trust for each other. Oh, this is one thing. We we pretty much tell each other, like, everything.

Okay.

And that's a wild thing that we started doing. But, like, we really have zero secrets from each other, so.

But it.

Is like we have, you know, talked about some pretty crazy things together.

And.

You know, sometimes it's, like, intimidating to have that level of openness. But I have found. Yeah. So maybe there's your stress. Like sometimes we talk about things that are uncomfortable.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah. I know early in our relationship we would often stay up to like two in the morning because we were determined that we will solve the thing before we go to sleep. And there were many days when we had to wake up for work just exhausted because. We were. Like to figure out, okay, how do we how do we solve this? How do. We we need to come to some kind of agreement or understanding or have some kind of peace about it before we move into the next day? Because I don't want to go through my next day settled about something with you, because you're supposed to be the most secure thing for me. So I think we both really.

Has that changed, or is that is that you said we used to do that? Do you does it has your philosophy on that changed?

No, I don't think my philosophy on that has changed. I think my perspective has changed. So like, I don't think we still would ever go to sleep without something feeling unsettled. Or. Does feel unsettled. Now we're like, this is unsettling. Let's, like, take some time to figure this out. These are the things I'm going to think through, and these are the things you're going to think through. And so it's not like we're determined to solve it in that day, but we come up with like actionable. Yeah. Get it about it again very, very soon. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that kind of plays along to, what you had said. I need time often to think about what I'm going. To say. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a thing that I sell my clients and I tell I say it on the podcast all the time, and I say it three times every time, which is repair is more important than resolve. Repair is more important than resolve, repair is more important than resolve. And when people are committed to resolve, they stay up till 2 or 3 in the morning. They lose their skills. They lose their like, would you say the song sucks if you're tired or something like that? Like they lose the ability to collaborate and sometimes they make it worse, you know, versus learning how to say, we're going to be okay, we're going to figure this out. We got to sleep.

Yeah.

I love you. I love you, too.

Yeah.

Don't worry. Like so the idea that repair because you can repair it without resolve, you can also resolve without repair. You can be like, fine. Fuck it. I'll do it. You know, it's.

Forget it.

She would do.

That's what I. Would do when.

It's 2 a.m. and I'm determined to win. Yeah, I would say that there's been an evolution. We still don't go to bed. I don't think we've ever gone to bed being like, I hate you. I think we've always been like, I love you. I love you, too. Let's let's finish this talk tomorrow.

Yeah.

But it has evolved and.

Yeah.

Well, plus, who has it? Who has the energy to stay up till 2 a.m. if you've got three children and also you have to be in a hot tub at five, so.

Exactly.

Always are there. Yeah.

I like telling this story to. I recently saw Ben Folds play with the Seattle Symphony Orchestra, and he would stop. Every once in a while, he would come up and he would give a little like mini Ted talk about music or art or, you know, even kind of politics or culture or whatever. And he said, you know, the world needs this. The world needs symphonies, because all these artists are up here. And it's the same on your show, too. And he started a sentence that I knew, I knew how he was going to finish it, but he but it was there was a twist in it. And he said, all these artists up here resolving and he started with GI and I was like, oh, he's going to say difference up here, resolving difference.

But they're not resolving difference. Their resolving dissonance. And that was what he said. He goes, all these artists are resolving dissonance. And so it's not so much even that they are different in the way that they think about. They're just off time or they're off key or they're off and they protect and take care of and, and sort of rescue each other throughout the performance as a living, breathing organism that is the orchestra or the band. And I found that really profound. And it's, it's true, you know, because music itself and relationships themselves kind of move around and it's not so much that we don't that we want something different is that we just want the way we want. It is different. And so, you know, people who are good at this figure out how to resolve dissonance and prioritize getting back on track versus getting it done or getting it finished, you know?

So yeah, absolutely.

Okay, I got a lightning round for you. This is sentences or lyrics I want you to finish.

Oh gosh. Okay.

This is Katrina's. The thing that Ron does that always makes our relationship better is.

He jokes. He makes. Jokes okay. Brings a lot of levity to the relationship. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Playfulness. And yeah, I love that. The thing Katrina does that always grounds us is.

We're not very lightning, are we?

Well, you're not, but.

He's the one.

That always grounds us. I would say. I'm very resourceful.

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

When I have a problem, she always has a solution.

Okay. That's cool.

When we're at our best, we sound like.

We sound.

Like silence. Oh, yeah.

Say more about that because I believe you.

Yeah. No. When we're at our best, I think it's it's it's working so well. There's nothing that needs to be. It's just like a smooth, like a well-oiled machine. It's quiet and it's. But it's still moving. Yeah. Yeah.

I love that. Except for your middle child. That seems like maybe.

Here's the story for you. Okay? I have an Apple Watch, and it tells you when things around. You are, too.

Oh, you're not about to say what I'm about. Okay.

It's like, oh, the noise around you just reached 100dB. And it's your kid. At this level can do permanent hearing damage. And I'm like, cool.

Oh my gosh.

It was. He was delighted. He, like, shrieked about something. He was excited.

Oh that's insane.

Yeah.

All right, so we've been talking about the the song, the band, what you are. If you if you had a title for the for the song that your marriage is written, what would you what would you say it is?

It's going to be like a follow up boy. Or is it follow up or panic! At the disco? They have crazy long titles. It's like, yeah.

Okay.

Something to do with, I don't know, alignment sounds so corporate.

Yeah.

We are often like very aligned on our values and our core goals. So I don't know.

Silent alignment.

Very good a good one. Yeah.

We should write that song.

Perfect.

There we go.

That's okay. Pretty good, pretty good. All right.

So now we're back to Ron's lines. The performances ever we played the we played the song. How did that feel.

Oh it felt good.

It felt good.

That's what most of them say.

I'm surprised. Felt okay. Yeah yeah yeah.

How did it feel to have your relationship interpret it on the spot?

Pretty good.

Yeah.

Pretty good. Yeah. It's always hard to articulate these things, you know, because they're so close to your heart. And it's like we so much of what we do now is just unspoken. So it's like, I feel bad when I take time to think about it, but it does matter to me. So I want to like, give an accurate answer.

Yeah. I feel like I can be so long winded. I feel like I'll try to give all the context for absolutely everything first, before I even get to like the core nugget of what I'm trying to say. So yeah.

What would you say to people who are interested in relationships are just getting started? Like what? What what advice do you have for new people who are wanting to learn how to do relationships? Well.

I mean, my my honest answer would be, find someone that you can dare to be fully honest with because. You might in your deep in your guts, you might feel like that's not something that's ever possible, or that someone couldn't actually love every part of me. They might love this bit that I'm projecting. And I think when people are first starting out there, like putting on this thing or like I need to do this to get a, you know, a partner or, you know, I gotta work out or I got to be this or that. And then, yeah, there is things, obviously, that you have to do that make you a good partner. But a relationship is not something you find. I think it's something you build with something. So you find the right person who wants to build with you, and then you, you start on that path. Because, yeah, I there's I've had friends that have been chronic daters.

At one point they're just like, I just want to find someone who wants to do this and.

Like, yeah, yeah.

With me. And it worked. It's like.

Well, yeah, you know. I think it's important also to you need to have the understanding with someone of the end. What's the end goal where it's like your core value of core, of. What you want is. Going to be really important. Like, I always knew I wanted kids and I was like a non-negotiable for me. And yeah. Okay, well, this guy does and makes me laugh. And that's, Yeah. That was. Pretty good.

Well, it's why that it's why your show works. Because, you know, everybody's clear. Like we have to get out of here having written this song, you know? And so and then the other thing that occurs to me as you're talking is it doesn't do any good to have a band with two drummers or or two lead singers or two bass players, like, only like a two person band with two to make sure you can have two lead singers or whatever. But, you got to find people who are willing to collaborate and complement your, your what you're bringing to the table. Because, you know, we need we need different people with different skills to accomplish this thing that we're trying to create together. And for a lot of people who have kids, it's it's how to raise great kids or how to create legacy or something.

But, you know, no matter what, it's got to be. Do we are we clear that we want the same thing? You know, do we want the same thing, even if it's just to go to bed feeling more connected and less sad, you know? Yeah. And that can change the way that you do. I mean, even the way the two of you have learned how to do going to bed, maybe we're not going to figure this out right now, but, you know, we're going to be okay. That sort of thing.

For sure. Yeah, yeah.

And it's kind of going back to what you said about constraints too. I think they're really important. Like, you know, a lot of times artists will come in. I've had, you know, for as many artists as you've seen on the show, I've got I've had ten people say two to scary. You know, it's.

Like, sure.

I had the same experience.

Yeah, yeah, big.

Big job getting people to do it.

Yeah.

And and they're coming to and they're coming to. They're coming to Canada. They're coming to your studios most often unless.

You're.

Coming through on tour. And so I'm also kind of.

Trying to.

Of when they have a day off. Yeah. Now we're starting to get a little more attention. And so people are being like, hey, we'll come out and do it. Yeah, that's a good place to be. Yeah. But yeah, it's like it's very revealing. Everyone's always surprised, especially with how music is made these days, like, largely by distance. You know, with your own home studio or whatever. And I've had bands, you know, say to me, I think this is going to change how we're going to write, like.

Wow, yeah.

Do this again.

Who was it that was just that was just on an episode I saw where they literally said, we've never done this. We've never been in a room together. I think it was one of these Icelandic kind of rock bands. Maybe that was.

Yeah.

That said.

That Mother Mother is a Canadian band and they definitely have that sentiment.

Yeah.

They had this moment where they were like, well, we haven't done this in like ten.

Years, you know? Yeah.

Like and that's one of the curses of being like a main, like a really popular band is. Yeah, you just don't have time. You're constantly touring and yeah, you know, your home time becomes sacred. But those I think the thing that makes the show so magical is the, the constraints.

And yeah.

That's how music used to be.

Like.

Yeah, you could not record at home. Like you went to a very expensive studio. Yeah, guys, we got to, we got to figure this song out in a day, like.

Yeah.

You know, and we're kind of like one of the only shows doing that.

Yeah.

Okay. On a scale of 1 to 10, how close would you say your relationship feels today to the one that you intended to build?

Oh. I would say a ten. I'm ten two. Yeah, absolutely. Right on. Yeah. I mean, I pictured us richer.

We're selling our house.

Right now, so we're just like, oh, like.

But, you know, that's I think the whole world pictured a different reality right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're okay.

If you could elect another couple to do this interview with me, someone you know or admire who would be awesome for me to hear from.

Wow.

My gosh.

Dude.

You're asking. All my clothes are questions.

I actually think Jared Falk would be so interesting. Jared and Shannon. I don't know. Sure. I don't I don't know if he'd enjoy doing it. I don't know, put him on the spot. Dude.

Know who would be interesting?

You can let me know later. But I wanted to make sure to ask because, you know, just like you, I just I want to have interesting conversations with people who have a thing and see how their thing informs how relationships work. Because I actually think that kind of how you do one thing is how you do everything. So you know how you do your workouts or how do you do your job or how you do. You know, your writing process informs how you do relationships, or maybe how you do relationships informs how you do those other things. So I you know, you're learning a ton about musics and how different people put it together, and you're probably a little bit less stressed about it because you can say to them, you know, there's lots of ways through, you know, you could do it in 12 minutes.

You can do it in 12 hours, like there's you're going to be fine. Just stay the course kind of thing. And that's that's what I hope this show accomplishes for for folks. Okay, I got one more thing that I want to say because I want to put it on the record. I can I pitch a song, I want you to have a song covered.

Yeah. Okay.

Tell me. I'm sure I've. Well, we'll see you tell me.

What do you think?

My. Okay, so one of my favorite bands is the Counting Crows. And my favorite, one of my favorite songs is Saint Robinson and his Cadillac Dream.

Oh, okay. All right.

And I have never heard a passable cover of that song.

Okay.

I it is, it is a I get lost in it. I play it over and over again. I weep at moments and I keep looking for the cover that's going to like, help me understand it in a different way. But I haven't found it yet. So I'm going to ask you out to put it in the universe and see if somebody can make a version of that song that will change my life forever.

Yeah. No.

So low bar.

Low bar. What's that?

What John of Band do you think would do the.

Best job?

I was thinking I knew you could ask me this question, and.

It's hard.

What I don't want is the, the, the the white guy with guitar to cover it. I want it to be something outside of the sort of the pop sphere. So, I have to confess, I don't I don't really appreciate or understand music well enough to be able to, like, I want this, Shara, but but I want it reinvented and a way that really respects those guys and the way that they put together music. So anyway, that's my that's my closing pitch for today.

Dude, I've been thinking about Counting Crows for a long time.

I just watched their documentary that's out on its on HBO Max right now.

And.

It's pretty fascinating because as a sidebar, Adam Duritz was a guy who did not expect to be as famous as he was as fast as he was. And he has a dissociative disorder. He has a it's not a distortion identity disorder. That's what's commonly understood to be like multiple personality disorder. But he has a dissociative disorder, and he he didn't find his peace until he grew out his dreadlocks. So he he looked into him. He said he talked about how I was looking in the mirror and I couldn't see this guy. And then I grew my dreadlocks out and I was like, oh, I can play that guy. And he played a character called Adam Duritz, lead singer of the Counting Crows, for 30 years or so, and he just cut him off like, like 3 or 4 years ago, and he cut him off inside the context of a healthy relationship with a partner who helped him be like, nope, I'm I'm an okay, I'm okay, I'm okay.

And so now if you if you see Adam, he's got just regular hair, 63 year old guy with just, like regular hair, and he's still out there singing his songs, but, fascinating, fascinating story of those guys. But it's a relational story, you know, about how, in his case, relationship healed him from this costume that he'd been wearing forever. The costume that we all know and love and, you know, or committed to, like.

So yeah, totally.

I totally understand that sentiment. And it's so interesting. Like, I've met a lot of lead singers in passing. It's really funny. I go backstage oftentimes with Brandon from drumming up. I will go to concerts together and we'll take a little crew with us and go meet the bands. And every drummer in the world, you know, wants to meet Brandon, which.

Is sort of fun.

And he's such a great, friendly guy, just super down to earth. But you know, the lead singer will often be passing through pretty quickly, and it's very clear, like the band is often excited to meet us because, you know, they're fans of the show or they kind of know we're music nerds. So it's like.

A.

Little different than being accosted by fans. But every time I've spoken to a lead singer, they have this thing about just this. It's really hard to describe, but you can you can just tell that even in the way, like I've learned how to talk to. And, you know, at first I thought the nicest thing you could say was, oh, I'm a huge fan. And that's not.

What's right here. Yeah.

They, they're, they'll, they'll talk to you if they know you're there to, to work. And you're like, let's do some work together. I think this would be fun. But this idea that like, people don't see them as people, it's like the lead singer syndrome, I get it.

And yeah.

I have to check myself all the time because I meet artists that I like listen to in high school and I'm.

Like, oh yeah.

Like, I can't believe it. But they're just folks, you know?

Yeah, yeah, people.

Listen, you guys, thanks for coming on the show. I'm so glad to have met you both. And I'm glad to be able to spread the word about Missouri and about how relationships work. And I'm just really grateful to speak to you. So I will make sure that people can find the channel. I know it's not personally like you're like your personal brand or whatever, but it is it's clear that you're invested. And I'm a big fan and I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of your work, man.

I just I'm getting used to.

That thing. But I also have to pitch our lessons platform.

That place, our thing. Yeah.

And that is such a fun thing that we we both believe in. I'm. I'm just really starting to dig into it now. You'll go watch this drum video from today and you'll see what I'm talking about. But it's such a great place to, to learn. And I've even found I'm sitting down with our kids and using it now to teach now.

Yeah.

It's been really fun.

Well, I'm about to, like I said, my youngest, my my house is about to empty nest and literally next week. And one of my goals is to kind of has been to learn new stuff. I'm trying to learn new stuff, and I'm pretty, pretty committed, I think, to learning how to play the piano. And Missouri will be my piano is a piano, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, is going to be.

My I'll send you a pass.

Cool cool cool cool. Yeah, I got to get a keyboard first, but I will I will definitely. I'll definitely let you know. Yeah okay. Thanks so much, you guys.

Thanks, doc.

Pleasure talking.

Bye. Bye bye.