We’ve Had This Fight Before | Session 1 with Brian and Kristen

How did you find Marriage Radio? How did you become marriage separated fans? Oh. Go ahead.

We had kind of a low point in our marriage when our second child was born, and we just were not communicating well, and things like things were things were difficult. I was like, well, what what would you be willing to do? Would you go to a marriage therapy? And I'm like, absolutely not. We don't need we don't need a therapist. Despite, you know, I have a life, a lifelong thing with therapy, that I've been in therapy a long time, but I never thought of my marriage as needing therapy. You know, I was like, oh, I'm doing my own work. But I didn't think of my marriage as needing therapy. And she's like, well, what about a podcast? And I was like, yeah, sure, fine. Okay.

I was a stay at home mom at the time, and I so I had time to sort of like troll the internet for podcasts, therapy, marriage, podcasts. And I, I found a couple and I would like, listen. But it was this it was a couple. It was like a married couple. Podcast. Yeah. And that for some reason just didn't ring, like what we needed or what we could benefit from. We've been together 23 years. So, you know, when you're in a long term relationship, you, you know, early on you sort of think, oh, that that friend who's been together longer than us. Well, they broke up, you know. Or. Oh, that, you know, that other friend. They've been together longer. Well, they broke up too. You know, so the longer we've gone on, we have these sort of relationships, friends of relationships in our life that dropped away.

And you can't really idolize the relationship that drops away. Right. So just sort of looking inward toward ourselves and thinking like, what do we need? Well, I don't I didn't feel like taking advice from a married couple was what we needed. And I happened to stumble across marriage therapy radio, you and Laura, and I think it was around episode 69. And I only know that because.

It's nice.

I only know that because, like, Brian wasn't really open to listening or like, he was sort of dragging his feet and being like, well, I'll, I'll do it if you can find something, you know? And I think we joined, I think it was like you were on 72 or 71 at the time, but in doing a little bit of backlog, I was like, oh, Brian, like, you could listen to this episode 69 and wouldn't that be fun?

And I remember that episode. That was Tina Shermer sellers.

Yes.

Yeah. And and I.

Think that we've had this fight before. Right.

No, that's Claudia Graf. Grounds. Tina Sellers is sex therapist, sex therapist, sex and intimacy therapist. Yeah.

We just we we agreed to listen, but not necessarily together. We just agreed to both listen and move on, move forward from there. And I think, you know, I had things about you that I liked, and I had things about Laura that I liked, and it wasn't the same things at all. You guys were different enough from each other. Yeah. And you were not a married couple. And within a few episodes, it was clear that this Gottman method was, you know, something to be looking at and taking notice of. So that's sort of how we found you, which would have been, what, like seven years ago?

It's about Jesus.

Yeah.

So do you listen every week? Is that your ritual or do you just kind of you catch what you catch and you you don't what you don't.

That's we're we're pretty well caught up. I, I mean, I don't I don't think I'm on your current episode that just came out, but.

Yeah.

Brian's usually a few episodes behind me. He used to have a one day a week where he had a longer commute, and he would listen on that day, but it's it's usually something we come back to like, oh, did you hear that one? Like, yeah, maybe the points we could talk about in the future.

There's not like a specific ritual or agreement. It's much it's more like a this is a resource that we have that we both agree as a valuable resource. And we'll use it, you know, to help us drive conversation forward.

Yeah. It was pretty clear right away that it was a resource that was helpful to us because at the you know, we've been together 23 years, 24 years now. So we were like 17, 18 years in at the time. And we were missing certain things like like language like, oh my gosh, like, did you hear that episode? And like here's, here's the terminology they use. Like, that's the idea I've been trying to talk to you about. But but I didn't have the terminology, you know, and it gave us sort of like a neutral place to listen on our own.

Yeah.

Reflect and then come together and talk about it if we wanted to.

Kind of your experience. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. For me it was definitely like I got a lot of value out of it, just sitting in my car and listening like I'm very much a single tasker. So I can't, like, put on a podcast and do something around the house. If I'm listening to something, I have to be like, kind of fully. Locked in, I guess. So, you know, being in the car was the time that I did that. So I would like have these little ajar moments. And after a while we just shortened it to, oh, did you catch. Did you catch when Zach was talking about this instead of oh on the podcast this week, blah blah blah, blah, blah? Oh, you know, so it gave us an opportunity to kind of vet things on our own. And one of the things I realized kind of really early on is that she would hear different things in the podcast that I would hear and or vice versa, and it would make it like, oh, I didn't even really think of it that way.

That's interesting. And I would like eventually, you know, we started processing and oh, well, how do you guys see together? Oh, will we listen to this marriage therapy podcast? You should really try it out. Oh, well, we can't do that. We can't sit down and listen to a podcast together. And I'd be like, no, no, no, it's okay. It's like, just listen to it on your own and like make your own decisions and like get some language and stuff.

So yeah.

We had we have told a lot of people that this is sort of what we do that helps us. And I think most people think we listen at the same time.

Right. Isn't that precious?

And that's not really at all what we do.

Yeah.

Yeah, I can only I can't even count on one hand the episodes we've actually listened to together.

Man, I love that you guys. It's actually, it's actually the exact thing that I hope Marriage Radio does is it just creates context and cushioning for people to add vocabulary. You said one of my things, which I'm sure you've heard me say before, is my one of my goals is that people will listen and they'll have experience of going, I never thought I would add it like that before, and then that they'll have some kind of practical application. I get emails all the time from people who tell me that they use marriage therapy radio as a supplement to therapy that they can't afford or they don't have time for, or that is just they haven't found the right guy and that this speaks to them in a particular kind of way.

Obviously, since Laura's left the show, the format has changed quite a bit. But I'm just enjoying like having people here, other people experience how other people are making it, making it go. And so I'm really honored that you are listening, that you're using it in that way, and that you're willing to kind of talk to me about your own relationship behind the curtains. And I guess, Brian, I do have a question before I kind of maybe do my stick, but what do you know? Or what can you tell us about why you why, as a pro therapy guy who has been benefited from therapy, you were you were anti couples therapy. What do you know about that? Or at least at that moment in your life?

Great question. That's what people say on podcasts when they want to stall and think of what they're trying to say. Right.

Great question. I think great question is such a funny thing to say. Well, yeah, I'm a professional, so I'm a therapist. I have great questions.

It's my thing. Yeah, it's definitely like it's of the same cloth as, like, I don't need therapy. I'm fine. Like, what I'm doing is working for me. And so I very much compartmentalize personal mental health, in a different kind of category as relational mental health, which I've definitely I've disabused myself of that notion for sure, partially because of what I do, which we may get into or not when, when, when and if we have time for that.

But, Yeah. No, it was the same old thing. It was like, I don't need that. We don't need that because. And it was it was very much a, a cognitive dissonance type of thing because it's like, no, I mean, I know therapy works. I just, I don't feel like I need it because people who go to therapy for their relationship are on the brink of divorce, because that was my personal, like narrative about it from my own folks, because they went to the therapy once and.

Got.

Divorce and they got to work. Yeah. So, you know, it's yeah.

I want to say when, when we were at this lower point having kid number two and I, you know, I, I was a stay at home parent, I maybe had more time to ruminate on the relationship. And I would come to you and be like, well, it could be like this. And you're you would say, I'm doing all I can. I'm doing everything I can do was sort of your, your, your strong arm answer for a lot of things is like, But I'm doing everything. I'm doing everything I could do. And in my head I'm like, well, you know, here I am wanting like some help or something. So maybe you're not doing everything you could do. And it was just getting over that hurdle.

That is something that, you know, over the next of the course of the next few things. I do want to get kind of into things.

You mean talks with me?

Chatterbox sessions over the next few sessions that I want to get into.

Is it this? Yeah.

I set myself up early on to be the one who. Responds to. Complaints and responds to. Dissatisfaction and apologizes. And that was the dynamic. Kristen.

Set yourself up early on, like early on in the early years before the relationship ever started. Like, is that a thing for you from your family of origin? Did you set your did you did you buy into that setup early on? How do you know that? How do you know that?

How do I know that I still have those patterns with my siblings? You know.

It wasn't always as constructive as it is now, though. Like, you had some patterns that you've dropped, like, Oh, what would it be like? I would be like, well, you know, she I don't know. You used to have this thing that you would say you'd be like, well, I guess I just won't do that anymore. Well, I won't take the kids out of the house anymore. Well, I won't read them lunch anymore. And it was like this empty threat that didn't really wasn't really doable, but it was just like a part of your narrative that it was almost like a part of your fight narrative. You remember that?

Yeah. Yeah, sure. I still I still.

You.

Don't do that. I have that fully formed thought on the tip of my tongue every now and again. And I'm like.

Yeah, hi.

Unhelpful thought you don't you don't I don't need you right now. Yeah I love that.

Yeah I do I mean I think, I mean, I recognize it when you guys said you want to talk about defensiveness as like, this is my favorite topic. I love talking about defensiveness. And that what what Kristen just described is very defensive response. It's the martyr response.

That was modeled for me under percent.

It's not that. It's not the I know you are, but what am I response? It's the it's the okay, fine. I'm never do it again. I'm the one. It's my problem. I guess I'll fix it. I'll be also defensive and, you know, if you if you had that model early on and you never had a reason to course correct, then of course it's going to creep out and show itself in your, in your relationships, particularly when they're under stress or duress. So. Right. Let me say a couple of things just to make sure that they're clear to everyone listening is that you are here voluntarily, and that we are simulating therapy in a way that feels therapeutic but isn't meant to, you know, replace actual good, dedicated work that you might do with someone that you've hired. You haven't hired me.

We're just connecting as co fans of marriage therapy radio. If at any point you say anything that you don't feel good about or don't want shared with the entire world, you just say, hey, don't share that you can. If I ask you a question you don't want to answer, you can just pass. You can say, no thanks. Usually I would say something here about confidentiality, but again, the whole world, all 8 billion people are listening to this podcast. And so you should expect to feel, exposed every time you go to the grocery store. You probably won't. Yeah. So we're just going to kind of get into it for a second. I want to work on what you want to work on. I want to know how I can be of help. And, you know, as I am want to do from time to time, maybe we'll just go meta every once in a while and step out and talk about like, what does this mean that you said that?

Or what does it mean that that feels like that because you're doing me a favor and I'm grateful you're doing our listeners a favor and they are grateful. And I want to be of value and return that favor. So let's let's do it. Let's talk about what's on your mind, okay. If you had carte blanche opportunity to ask couples therapist about something that is worth working on in your relationship, what would you be? Where do you want to start?

I was going to say lately we have these patterns that just keep creeping in and we know they're not great. It's, you know, you had a you had an episode about like, we've had this fight before, right? And I can pick out the subjects where like when we start on that subject, I'm like, okay. Be careful. Okay. Wait. Before you say something, breathe before you respond.

This is healthy. You.

Yeah. Yeah. And and and that's, you know, there's not that many topics which really can get us going, but so it's, it's like the certain topics that are hard to navigate around. And lately it's like, we get into like a pattern of misunderstanding, would you say?

Here's what happens. What happens is I feel a defensive response coming on. Kristin senses I'm starting to get defensive. And she says, hey, I'm on your team. We are on the same team. And I have a reaction to that because in my perception. I have a perception of not being treated like a good team member. And so I have I have this moment of like she says, she's on my team. But why would somebody who's on my team say that to me?

And did you just acknowledge, though, that it starts with your defensive response? What comes before that?

What comes? What comes before?

Well, like you said, I'm defensive. And then she says, I'm on your team. And you're like, I don't feel like you're on my team, but you're already defensive at that point.

I have a person.

So something has happened before that, right?

I have a perception of something, she says. And I perceive it. And then, like you've said in podcast, I feel the need to defend myself. And sometimes it's things that or seemingly innocuous but are.

It can be something really benign. It could be like, did the kids get lunch today? And you're like, well, I was doing X, y, z as a and I'm like, no, no. My only question, like, I just the only question I'm looking for and the answer I'm looking for is did the kids get lunch today? Like that example? But, I think sometimes you read too much into what I'm asking you, and so I can even see your wheels turn and go off and I'm like, wait, it's just the information I asked for. I have said this, for I have said, I'm on your team. This has been something I've been saying for the last few years, and it's like I married this guy. We've been together for a long time. Like when I married him, that was me standing up, being like, we're a team now. And so I didn't think I had to say it, but lately, I in the last few years I have been like, hey, this went off the rails.

Like, I'm on your team. I would, I would never, like, attack you or accuse you. And if I was accusing you, it would. It would just blatantly sound like, hey, did you do X and something I'm getting tired of? And I tell Brian this when we're in arguments is like, I'm so tired of reminding you that I'm on your team.

Maybe you should stop. You don't like it. He doesn't like it. Maybe it's not a helpful, helpful thing. Yeah, I'm interested in it, though, because, you know, people talk about wanting to feel like teammates, and I'm never quite sure exactly what that means, because, you know, if you're on the football team, there's a quarterback, quarterback's the boss quarterback is running the show.

And then there's all these other people who sort of fall in line with the plan that the quarterback is dictating. And, you know, you can also be on a football team and be on offense and defense. We could be on the same team, but have two totally different objectives and skill sets and not even be working at the same time, you know, or they talk about we were on a we're on a rowing team crew team, you know, and so those two people have to be operating in exactly the same way at exactly the same time in order not to create additional resistance for one another.

I think the metaphor, the team metaphor that I've come closest to that makes the most sense to me is beach volleyball. It's sort of a two person game where object, if you're most successful, you realize that the the opponent is across the net, opponent is over there, and that we bring different skills to the table. But one thing that we're both responsible for is showing up ready to play. Like if you've got a bad ankle, you need to have done the rehab on your ankle. If you haven't studied your opponent, you need to watch film on your opponent. If you haven't, you know, been.

Protecting your cardio or your strength, you got to lift and run apart from. Right? So that when we get to the sand, we're there. And I can count on you to be at your best. You can count on me to be at my best. It's harder when you know you come and you're not sure your partner's been training as hard as you, or they care as much as you are. You like to point out their flaws because they didn't, you know, whatever it is. So I think this team metaphor is valuable. It's important. But part of what you have to establish is what what's the game, you know, and who's the who's the enemy or who's who's the opponent. And I think if people are honest, not honest, but if they're clever, you can realize that you always, always, always have a an opponent.

There's always someone or something that you can be united against. And it might just be your own immaturity. It might be old you. Old us used to argue like this, but new us we can, we can. We can beat old us and new us can beat old us. Right. I think when you find that thing, it helps a lot. But it sounds like, Brian, you haven't found that thing or you're not having that experience. When the team metaphor enters your your consciousness.

No. And I don't know if there is an and I think. Ever since I heard that episode on The Four Horsemen, it's like, you know, I heard that and it's like, well, what's mine? Obviously it's defensiveness. Okay. And Kristen, right? Yeah. I asked Kristen what's yours? And I thought I knew and I wanted to see if she agreed with what I, what my assessment was, which is, oh, can you run through them for me for one more time?

Well, criticism and defensiveness, they go together. Stonewalling is the next one, at least in my list. And then the last one is contempt. So criticism and defensiveness, they play together. Stonewalling is I'll say this part is when you opt out of a situation because it's if staying in it is more dangerous than than leaving it. I actually think that's a good idea. But Stonewalls are doing that in a in a non-relational way. You've probably also heard me describe how I think, like the world needs criticism. The world needs critical people. The world needs defensive people. They they help the world turn. They're also behaving in non-relational ways when they are using it. Inside of the scope of what John Gottman would call destructive.

So I think but I think all three of those, there's a little bit of a redeeming value or a little bit of a healing edge attached to them. The fourth one, contempt. There's no redeeming value in contempt. I used to think contempt is I hate you, but contempt isn't better than you. And so usually that comes from some position of hierarchy that you've established or made up in relation to ship to the other. So you were saying that you were willing to own that yours was defensiveness, but where you, the two of you maybe were misaligned on what you suspect Kristen's favorite horseman is?

I think you were saying it was contempt.

I was saying it was contempt at the time.

Which and how did you how do you understand that?

Me?

Well, how do you. Well, Brian, how did you experience it? Or why did you come to label it? And Kristen, did you just say, I think mine is contempt or did you just say, I think you think mine is contempt?

No, I was remembering it was a while back that we talked about it, but I was remembering that Brian was informing me that I had contempt, which would equal me thinking that I'm better than him, which is wild. I, I remember at the time being like, wow, I am misunderstood, you know, like if if that's what he thinks I'm walking around with. Bummer. For me. For me, it's probably more likely criticism. Although man, I can remember some years where criticism was just fly anatomy, but I, I don't I don't like to go there. I mean, I may have inquiries like, why'd you do it like this or are you x, y, z? But I don't know that that necessarily means that I'm being critical. And so again, I feel like I am misunderstood on both counts. Right. That's my honest answer.

Yeah.

The reason why I landed on contempt as where she was coming from is that. There it has to do with that dynamic. I said earlier, where I'm the one who comes after a disagreement and tries to repair first. I'm the one who comes and owns. That was a really unhelpful response I just did. I, I can see how that would have hurt you. I didn't mean to do that. I want to do better in the future. And that became, in all honesty, it probably became as. As often heard as I'm on your team is now. So even though I was coming from a place of authenticity and owning my stuff to her, I could see in her face. Okay, so this is our thing. You get defensive, then you apologize, and I'm just supposed to be like, great. Okay, fine. And that's, I think, where the.

Growing of contempt kind of came from. And one of the things that I asked Kristen recently was, can I ask you to be more what was the word I used? Can I ask you to own your stuff a little bit more? And so.

Which is super hard for me to do. It just wasn't modeled in my family.

You also defensive me.

She can be. Yeah.

Yeah, I can be. Can be. I mean, we have a lot here, Zach. Like, you know, we have family of origins that, like, kind of look similar on paper, but like, after 25 years of a relationship, we're like, I don't I don't know how your family operates. Like. And I don't think he understands how my family operates. I mean, we didn't have children for 11 years, so we were together for 11 years, just like rocking the duo and and adding kids to the mix is a total pressure cooker and and totally our roles. Just, you know, things that were working for us before. Kids don't work necessarily. After you have children in your family. So yeah, I can be defensive.

Right on. So what do you want help with? It's like, because I'll tell you the truth, it sounds like you've done some really good, thoughtful inquiry and growth about and around this stuff. And I can talk to you about defensiveness all day long. Like I said, it's my favorite topic. I actually think I'm good at it. I think maybe you guys are good at it. Being good at defensive is learning to differentiate between feeling attacked and being attacked. It's inserting some patience. It's taking some responsibility. You know, it's it's I would say defensive people are failing to take the correct amount of responsibility. They take 100 or 0. That's the indignant people I know. You are right. What am I or it's the martyrs.

They take nothing. It's reverse. Right? The martyrs take 100% the responsibility. It's my fault. I'll do it all the time. I guess I'm the one who's messed up. Indignant people are more like. No, but you know. But you. What about your. And I think it sounds like you're both learning how to take somewhere between 1 and 99% of the responsibility. If you haven't kind of accepted that as the authentic way of being in relationship, that can be challenging. But what is it that is in the way of you kind of leveling up to the next thing? Is it your defensiveness still?

It's like going down a rabbit hole when one of us gets a hurt feeling. I don't know if rabbit hole is the right word, but like, one of us gets hurt and like, and we're hurt like we can we can go around and around. We don't really get very far. I mean, we've learned that taking breaks is, like, hugely helpful. But I feel misunderstood a lot of the time. Like, how did you get that? From what I said. And and Brian's legitimately hurt, you know, and and that's real. It's also like, disruptive of our nice life. Right? You know. Oh, I thought we were going to have a nice day today or. Oh, I have to leave for work in 30 minutes. Why why do we have hurt feelings now, you know, where are you going? To say something very different.

I was going to just say that when, you know, we were listening to the IRA and Andrea episodes, and I actually, before I listened to the IRA and Andrea episodes, I listened to. One of the one off couples. Dan was the guy. And that maybe.

Yeah, I know who you're thinking of.

Where she was really good. And he's like, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, I like to have a little bit more of a thing before I go. And you were asking them, okay, if everything like if this goes exactly how you want it to go and you get everything out of this that you want it that you want, what will have changed next time I talked to you? And so I'm posing. I was posing myself. I was posing these questions to myself and kind of later to Kristen and. So I wanted to know if it's just like, okay, is it just me or is it just me? Because, like, I'm starting to feel like I'm. I'm like, it can't just be me. Like, there's got to be.

Is it just me?

Versus is it a work on.

You got, you know, is it, is it just me or do other guys or other people out there feel the same way as you're talking about? Is it just me carrying all of the load in this relationship.

All of the problem that all of the every time we have a disagreement, is it always me? If it's always me, then I will work on it 100% I will like I will use that metaphor. I will study those oppo tapes. I will get in the sand and do all the things I need to do. Just tell me. Yes, Brian, you know, sorry, dude. It's all just you or no Kristen. Maybe there's some. Yeah, you can work on too. And then you like.

Yeah.

So that's that's my that's my ideal is somebody tell me I got you, Brian. Or is it. Yeah. Both of you.

I got good news for you and bad news for you. Which which one do you want first?

Bad news?

Yes. It's it's only you. It's on. It's just on you.

Okay.

You want the good news?

Yeah.

It's 100% on you. Yeah, it's on you. And I think that actually think that that's. I think the good news is better than the bad news. And I think this because personally, for me, the most freeing thing I've ever done in my relationship is realize that I am 100% in control of whether or not I'm in a healthy relationship with the people I'm in relationship with. It is not dependent on their criticism of me, of their own defensiveness, their contempt for me, their their stonewalling. Like I get to choose 100% of the time whether or not I'm going to show up in a way that is good for this relationship. And it it actually is really freeing to to think that way. I don't know if you can get there in ten minutes or a half hour or three sessions or whatever, but I think when you kind of kind of a brace that it's actually a privilege to be the one who shows up with kind of the best.

Now, here's another piece of that equation. I think my wife thinks the same thing. I think Rebecca agrees that she it's on her, and that she needs to step up in ways that are on behalf of this relationship. And so in that way, we're not competing. It's not a contest. I don't feel bad about it. I heard I heard this metaphor one time. I'll send it to you a little bit later, but it's I saw a meme and it was basically like the healthiest relationships were are not 50 over 50, they're 6040 where each partner is trying to be the 60.

So in that way, I think, you know, you have an opportunity to be as diligent and as thorough as possible on how you show up with regard to your defensiveness. And also, yeah, Kristen, I think you should do the same. I think you ought to be as proactive and as a and as intentional as possible around your possible contempt and your probable criticism, because you are who you got you to or who you got, and you can't really do too much to change the other person. They formed first in the womb and then in their family of origin before they ever knew you. And there's all kinds of, you know, psychology and relational data that suggests that that we, you know, we kind of lock into our core strategies pretty early on. And then you happen to bump into each other. How did you meet, by the way?

We met in college. I saw Brian freshman year, like in freshman orientation.

Yeah.

And he.

Was like, he locked your bike. He locked his bike next to yours.

Well, he was he was like.

Kind of a little bit more of an odyssey than the story.

He was kind of like doing everything. He was like the volunteer. He was like, arm was raised and everything, and I just saw him. We didn't live in the same dorm or anything like that, and we didn't have any mutual friends.

With the same class freshman at the same time.

We were a freshman at the same time, and then sophomore year, he moved into my dorm. He was dating someone, and I would just secretly put, you know, how people, like, had white whiteboards and outside their doors, dorm rooms. I would put flowers outside his I would tape them onto his whiteboard. And I did this for a long time, and I don't I didn't really tell anybody I was doing it, but I just kind of liked him from afar. So I was just trying to talk. Her. Yeah. Secret admirer. Stalker. And, we did get together by the end of freshman year. By the end of sophomore year, we had mutual friends, and it was like he knew I liked him. He wasn't with that girl anymore. And, yeah, we did make out before sophomore year was over.

Right on. So you've been together since you were children? I mean, yeah, 19, 20 years old.

19.

20, 20 and 21.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know,

Being together, being together long term. Zach is wild because, you know, you're together for three years and you're like, wow, this is the longest relationship I've ever had. Or.

You know, me.

Yeah, yeah. You get, you know, to your late 20s and then you get married. You're like, oh, I got this figured out. We're getting married. Well that's humbling. I yeah, didn't have anything figured out really. And I said a couple years ago, like, I, I stood up and I did my wedding vows with you, but like, I didn't I didn't know what worse men. Who knows what worse means at a wedding, you know. And we've been we've had some crazy lows since then. And that's where you really are, like, oh, this is for better or worse. Got it. Oh, oh, you're worth it.

Got it.

Yeah. It's just humbling to be together 24 years I have. I can't fathom what the next 24 years would be like, except awesome. But there's, you know, I'm not the same person at all. He's not the same person, and I forget. Is it every three years or seven years, you have relationships.

So who cares? Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah. My wife like this one Kristin Chenoweth quote. She's she was, you know, trying to choose this Broadway star she talks about. She was she asked her mentor at one point. He was married for a few decades. She said, how do you stay married to the same person for 30 years? And she said, you don't. This isn't the same person. We're totally different people. We have to. You have to learn how to adapt and change and and kind of renegotiate terms all the time. I'm aware of time. And so I want to do something kind of on behalf of our project together, which is you said we had no idea what worse is. I think that's true. Most people don't.

They have no concept really, of what the world holds. It's funny, I have a I have two, I have a 19 and a 23 year old and I'm, I'm sort of in delightful of how much they know how smart they are, how much they've figured out about how the world turns. And I'm just like, that's sweet, that you that you think that you know, how like, oh, peace. How peace in the Middle East works and how environmental science works and how relationships work. They've got it all figured out. But, we're not trying to fix it all. We're just trying to make it better, you know? And so this idea of, for better and for worse, for you, too, and I guess maybe for all my listeners out there, if you if, if the next time I talked to you, your relationship was better.

So I think we are talking next week sometime. But if your relationship was better seven days from now, what what would be different about your relationship in seven days? And then let's see if we can't set up a little experiment to t that up. Because like I've said 100 times before, I'm Home Depot. People are looking for tools. I'm like, great, I got tools, but we need to know what we're building, what we're working on. So if you two were in a better place, even slightly better a week from now than you were today, what? What changes for each of you?

I would really like to I would, I would like to be in the world. I don't want to. I don't mean to be so self. I don't mean to be selfless or cliche, but I would like to move through the world being more sensitive to Brian and how things are going to land for him.

Your relationship is better in seven days if you are more sensitive to the way things land for Brian.

Yeah, when I when I open my mouth. Yeah.

Okay.

Is that specific enough? Not specific enough.

I got a lot of questions about it. Like, I guess I don't have enough information about how you open your mouth and it doesn't land. Well, like, I'd like to learn more. About what? Like, is it because you're critical? Is it because you have contempt, or is it because you're clumsy? Is it because you.

I think because I'm clumsy.

Okay.

I think I just I'm I was telling Brian early today, it took me a long time into adulthood to realize that not everybody sees the things that I see or knows the things that I know or moves through the world, the way that I move through the world. And, you know, even though I've been moving through the world with this guy for a long time, I still so easily forget, like, he doesn't know the things I know. He doesn't move through the world the way I move through the world. And I could be more careful. I could be more aware of how things are landing for you and your space in the world, and how you are moving and interacting. Does that make sense to you?

Yeah.

That sounds like a good goal for me.

Yeah, I love that. Okay, it's not what I thought you were going to say.

I what did you think?

I, I literally had no idea that was. That was the million dollar question. There's at least the $64,000 question. So I was really, I was really I was really tickled. Tickled to hear that's that's how that's going to go. I kind of have one teed up already, because I kind of came to a turning point with myself a little bit ago. Zach. That was kind of along the same lines as what you said, which is, yeah, 100%. It's you. And I've known that for a long time that like, I can't change anybody but myself. And that's really freaking hard already. So that's that's the basis of my answer. But my real answer is I need to ask for a break when I feel flooded. I hear you, but I can't talk about this anymore. Give me 20 minutes. Okay? I need to take a break. I need to take a break.

What?

So that I can be like, okay, what's actually going on here? Put some space between me and my defensive response and what Kristen just said to me.

Your relationship will be better in seven days if you learn how to take a break when you're when you're elevated, escalated, triggered, whatever it is.

I mean, you know how to do that, but you're just going to recommit to.

I don't ask for a break because I know the way that she processes is by continuing to talk about it. And I know that we repair more quickly if she gets a chance to continue to talk about it. But that doesn't work for me. And I'm finally realizing that. Because it's not I never it never feels it never feels good to me to continue to process when I would much rather be like, I can't, I gotta, I gotta come back, I gotta come back, I gotta put some space and come back. But because I, I have this mentality of like, I, I got to be in it to win it. I can't, I can't back down from the hard thing. The hard thing is continuing to engage when I feel like flooded and defensive. You're better than that, Brian. You don't you can't let that be too.

Yeah.

So I don't I, I just need to shift my whole mindset about it, I think.

Okay. What would make what makes that hard for either one of you? The thing that you just named and I actually I want to applaud you both by saying the thing that that you would leverage or that that you would identify as better is, is inside of you. I want to know what the actual outcome is. Are you laughing more? Are you.

Okay.

Arguing less? Are you having more dates? Are you? I mean, what is the byproduct of you guys doing this work?

Let's laugh more. Laughing more.

Sounds awesome. Laughing more. Sounds awesome. I do that.

You know.

Well, what's so great about that game? That teammate metaphor is it's a game, right? We're playing. We're yes. Professional sports.

More play more play more play. Okay.

So you have to take yourselves a little less seriously.

For sure. That's what I was just going to say. Zach. Yeah. I think being more lighthearted and just not not taking ourselves so seriously.

Okay. All right. I'm going to give you a piece of homework and and see what you think. In an effort to, to identify this pattern that you describing that's not helpful. And to objectifying it, meaning putting it on the other side of the net. I want you both actually in. If you're listening at home, you can have this homework too. I want you both to make a list of the steps involved in your in your in your normal, boring, repetitive fight that you have or argument that you have. Like how does it start? What happens next? What does he do? What is she do? What do you do? Where do you get in trouble with the clumsy thing? Where do you fail to take the break that you need to take over? Where? When the break is offered, do you not accept that offer? Like I just want to know.

I want each of you to make a list. Let's say a maximum of ten steps. Label them one through ten, and then I want you to compare your lists and make a single list that you agree on. You go. This is it. It's not going to be perfect, but it's going to give us some options. So when we get back together, you're going to have a list of your your pattern and what each of you does along the way. That ends up being unsatisfying, that ends up being disconnected, ends up being does it just doesn't feel good. Certainly doesn't feel like play. Certainly doesn't. It certainly doesn't feel like two people who aren't taking themselves very seriously. That's what I want to. That's what I want to look at. And when we when we get back together, we can go through the pattern and just see what options are available for each of you.

Because again, I think it's noble and good that each of you is like, I wish I was better at making different choices along the way. You've labeled a couple of those places, but I'm optimistic that we can learn something new. We can have the experience of going. Never thought about it like that before, and that there's something practical that you and others can take away from that exercise. If we if we lean into it with some, some intention, does that sound like an assignment you're willing to take on?

Absolutely, yes.

Okay.

Really cool. Because that was the other thing is like, how did we drop the script? Well, first you have to write it.

Yeah, 100%. Like when you're when you're when you are playing the tapes, you. Yeah. You got to press pause and you got to maybe hit rewind, maybe hit eject, put a new tape in. But you got to know what the tape is and you already know what it is. You just don't have a. You don't have you're not looking at it in front of you yet. So cool.

Cool.

Okay. Well very cool. Thanks again for joining me in this context and for sharing your kind of your journey with the whole wide world. And we'll look forward to getting back together in a week or so, and figuring out if we can move the needle toward better.

Sounds good, I love it.

Thanks.

All right. Cool.