Session 3 | Ten Days at a Time

How are you guys feeling this morning? This afternoon.

Oh, and we've had a quite a journey. It feels like everything's at it.

My gosh. Kids, kids. Our kids.

You've had quite a journey, kids wise. Yeah. Yeah.

It's just it's just hard.

Yeah. You know, our daughter's autistic. Aren't, you know, on the spectrum. She doesn't immediately present, but, you know, she's, you know, doesn't read social cues, has a very limited think.

She actually does read social cues. She just doesn't engage.

She doesn't care about people, social cues or something.

Yeah. It's still work in progress.

Yeah, but very limited things that she wants to try or do. And then our son has ADHD really strongly and just is super volatile like every little thing is a trigger.

Yeah there's a little bit of a side quest but as far as you know do the two of you have a philosophy of parenting? Like do you have a if clarity about what you think the goal of parenting is right now?

I would say it's kind of be the best parents we can be, like, be like, you know, like be slow to anger, be, nurture and challenge, you know, keep consistent boundaries, but always return back to love.

I mean, I think in terms of, you know, just like thinking of parenting styles, we try to be authoritative, not authoritarian and not permissive.

Yeah. But we lean on the permissive side probably. Okay.

Parenting neurodivergent kids is a whole other ballgame than parenting neurotypical kids.

Yeah.

There's there's certain things just don't work. And you know, we've been brought to our knees at certain times and have sought out, like a, like a coach parenting coach for us. And I think verge of needing another parenting coach for us. Yeah. So yeah, it's just it's a lot and it's it feels relentless.

Yeah. What's the upside? Like what's the what's the what's the upside of being you guys and being in your family. Yeah.

You know.

Being. Well I mean we have I mean, I'd say there's a lot of upside as far. I mean, we bought a beautiful new apartment in Lisbon that we're have the luxury of being able to renovate and make it are really beautiful. Yeah. And, you know, like, I'm at that point of my where I'm able to spend more time with the family and and on my art. I'm transitioning my career from weddings to my passion of doing photographic art. Which is a dream and a big jump, a big risk. Scary. You know, something that's really hard to really do is make a living doing art. It's a really fine art.

Yeah.

But, Yeah, I mean, I think living in Lisbon is amazing. You know, like, I've worked for 30 my butt off for 30 years, and we've saved up money, so we're, like, have a little nest egg. That means, you know, we can kind of do these things and take, you know, make this transition. So know that's from my perspective.

And I think from my perspective, all of that, although my ability to enjoy it all at this juncture in time, it's a little bit limited by my other self. But because of the parenting and needing to re parent. There's there's purpose behind. I feel like I mean there is a certain providence to the story of my kids and our story and my story particularly there is a certain like deep surgery. That's happening because of parenting. Yeah. That is essentially like while incredibly painful at times. Also I think for the pair for not just these kids or us, but for a wider, a wider world. So I think there is real and I and I love the, the suckers like I love them. Yeah. And I think in many ways, again, even though it can suck, I, I think it's its purpose that there's something deeper going on at this particular point in time.

What would you say that is out of the big, big ideas to the more detail? And well.

On a personal level, I don't know that I ever would have discovered that I'm neurodivergent. Had it not been for digging so deeply into the neurodivergent stuff. I'm like.

Yeah.

That's a piece of the puzzle that I didn't have that I'm still absorbing what that means. Exactly. And but also the like wanting like building what I wish I had, which is a community of people who also have kids who are challenging to parent. We all feel alone. We all kind of stretched and know and like weirdos and deficient, and we all have tremendous wisdom to share and compassion for each other. So starting a support group and everybody's like, yes, yes, yes. So yeah, just like and also launching, launching these kids into a world that doesn't understand them. Like the world needs more healing and healing, healed parents and people. And I think that my kids, because of their challenges, are going to be extraordinary adults.

So yeah.

How does it relate to the replanting that you talked about.

Well. I, I had less than stellar parents. They, they weren't so but they were distant.

All at this dinner.

And like pretty absent in many ways. And I don't know how to parent because but I'm, I'm making mistakes like, right and left. But they're not the same mistakes. I think that was generational healing. That's that's on my plate.

Yeah.

No doubt your parents credit. They didn't recreate the abusive.

No.

Your dad was in a very abusive relationship with his father. Yeah. His father. And so, like, you know, he he improved. Yeah. When? From what he had.

Poor guy was a hot mess.

Her dad was kind of absent, but at the same time, he was abusive. So that's.

Yeah, I mean, it was a narcissist.

Well, it's this whole thing. I mean, I always say 100% of my clients have, have been traumatized by their parents. You know, like, even if they had really excellent parents, but, like, they never let me off the leash, and they were a smothered me. And as I was, they were too loving. And I never learned how to, you know, like. So I think part of it is.

Probably going to be like the accusation. Hopefully.

Right.

Like, yeah. Well, the deal is you can't like if you're going to course correct, you can't Overcorrect. Right. You can't I mean, that's somehow it to find the middle. Which is actually a little bit I think of what I wanted to talk about today, in part because, you know, if if my theory is correct or if I don't like I, it's fair to call it my theory. But if I think if what I think is you have to like, do your own work or get over yourself or heal self or whatever it is that we decided that we were going to call that, in order to show up for your partner in the way that they want you to, and cleverly, like, do more things they liked you for things they don't like, but it's really just about showing up for the partner you have.

You know, because you can, you can show up, you can, you can be really good at loving Jane but happen to be married to Sue, you know, or really good at loving Max because you're really good at loving. But you happened to be married to Tim, you know. And it doesn't change the fact that you have a loving heart and a loving capacity. You just aren't hitting the mark for your your partner, you know? And so that is, but you can only do that out of, out of a sense of, like, standing on solid ground yourself. I think so, yeah. If we're shifting in that way, I think parenting actually works in the same way. Like, you can't just correct the opposite of your own parents. You have to kind of find that space in the middle that actually just holds the container for whatever the trauma ends up being.

And I can I add something because I like, apart from that like sense of providence and purpose, like I have a lot of love in my life. Like, it's not a, like a tundra like IRA is a very loving, supportive husband and like, my best friend, like my husband is my best friend. Yeah, and we can go at it. But like, I know he's got my back, and I hope he knows that I have his back, but I also have, like, really, really rich friendships with some incredible people in the States and here. And you know, that's that's that really helps you know. That really helps.

Yeah. Well did you guys spend any time thinking about this idea of. Self health. Vis-A-Vis our last conversation or do you want me to riff a little bit because I have some.

Can you. I don't know. I'd like to for you to riff.

I'd love for you to have some ideas, but we should just quick update. Like, I feel like we've had some good conversations. Yeah. And, you know, we've just started out a new kind of, health club, like a block from our new house, which is if we ever.

Move into.

A new. Yeah, once the first time, it looks like it's going to be another five weeks, so it's done.

Jeez.

But, you know, like, it seems like a really great partnership. This, you know, great, place for the physiotherapist that Andrea met with today. I met with yesterday, and they, you know, can really figure out on a deeper level what you need from a wellness, health, fitness perspective and really kind of come alongside you. So that's and you know, and for me it's like I feel like I just have to say I have seen Andrea take some hard steps that to me makes me have more respect for her. You know, because I think it's for anybody to, to really take care of yourself. Well it takes a lot of intelligence and discipline and wisdom and saying no to things that you really like that aren't good for you and saying, choosing to do things that are really, you know, good for you. But maybe you don't have a habit of it's a, it's a takes a lot of character to do it right.

You know, it's not coasting. It really takes intentionality and focus and wisdom and and and so, so like seeing her do these moves, I have more it's like I have more respect for her because I see I see that and and it makes me yeah. And I think respect is kind of the, the, the, the, the foundation that love's kind of built on to. Or an attraction built on respect.

I Andrea, I don't know, like, I know I'm prickling a little bit at this idea of more respect for you. I don't know if you I'm.

Also prickling at the idea.

I guess I want to say like, how do you feel about that realization, like the meta reality? Oh, I'm realizing I have more respect today than I did last week or something like that. Like, how do you feel about that?

I think in the past I was kind of losing some respect. I think I was kind of like wishing that she would be making harder choices and being smarter about it. And I think so, I think I to be honest I think I was losing respect.

Okay. But so here you are. And oh my gosh look at this. Some respect. I just I just realized I have some I found some I lost it and I am finding some. How do you feel about that.

I don't think I lost it and now I'm finding it. I feel like I think in the past it wasn't a lost and found. It was a it was I, I, I was felt disappointment and. Yeah. And and now I'm feeling like I'm seeing who she's made out of and it's beautiful.

And it's funny because I, I can I say something.

Well, let me just land this spot for a second because the idea that that's beautiful. And I know I heard you say a little bit earlier like you, you value beauty. Part of what you love about your new place is it's beautiful and you get to make it and you do it right. Like do you find gratitude for that. Do you go. This is beautiful. This is a I'm so grateful for this, for you, for her, for the family, for, like, versus. Oh, phew. I I'm glad I got the respect back. That's kind of. That's good. Because it was. I was losing it before.

The question is, do I feel gratitude for.

I don't know, man. I guess I guess my question is somewhere around and maybe Andrea, you can chime in here. It's somewhere around. Do you understand the the. The power that goes with being the respect holder or the or the respect not have her,

Like the two way street. Right. And I think in any relationship that should be evenly held right, that we both could be.

But that's not the that's the relationship that you guys are in.

You're making hard choices that are take bravery.

Yeah.

Like not taking the easy road there. Like setting goals and going for it. And like that's really cool I really respect that. Right.

Like yeah. Yeah you did.

It's not a who has it. It's should be. And I think that a healthy relationship it goes both ways right. We need to mutually look at the other person and say wow I am impressed. This person has some.

Yeah, I don't know. I think that's unique for you. I think that's important to you and I and I value that for you. And I actually want people to be impressed by me. That would be that would mean a lot to me if some of you were impressed with me. Some people aren't. Don't hold value in being impressed or respected or having respect. Like there's just a different there's a different, mechanism or makeup. You know, Andrea doesn't have the same, makeup wherein she looks across the relationship and goes, look at all the cool things you Iris doing to take care of himself and his spirit and his body and his thing. That's so respectful. I really respect that. And you know that, like, that's just this is not where you hold value together.

And so it's we're sort of back to this idea of how do we make sure. And I'm, listen, I think it's actually quite cool that you're, that you're aware of some respect that you have for her. She deserves it. But if that's coming from a and I don't, I'm ridiculous on purpose because it helps me make my point. So I'm not actually talking about you strictly here, but if it comes from my, like, who? Finally, you're respectable place. That's harder than if it comes from a oh my gosh, that's maybe the coolest thing I've ever seen. And the the side benefit for me is I get to carry around some additional respect. That's really I'm really happy about that.

Those are different manifestations of that. And even if you think you're articulating the latter, if she's experiencing the former, the first one, then we have a gap that we have to close through, like actual exploration, which I think is part of what I'm wondering around and right now with you is just to go, hey, what do you know about this feeling? And I think we should hear from Andrea because she's got some of her own experience that doesn't happen to be bottled up in mine.

I think, you know, to so that we're on the same page, I think. I don't know, you picture like a marriage where there's, like a guy who is a couch potato. I'm going to be ridiculous to the point. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

And I'm not a couch potato. You know.

There's some guy who's a couch potato and goes to work. He's tired. He comes home, cracks open a beer, chips, sits on the car. That guy just, you know, just sits there and doesn't spend time with his kids, doesn't take care of himself. Is using a credit card too much? Getting in financial debt. You know, that's he's taking the easy road, right. And and.

100%.

Well, if a woman sees that there's going to be less respect for him, right? Sure. You know so. And if he gets if he says, do you know what, I'm going to change this instead of going home, I'm going to do these things. I'm going to spend more time with the kids, and I'm going to pay off my credit card every month, and I'm going to take up a hobby that's much more productive than this. And then and then she's like, oh, wow, I have more respect, you know? So like, yes. So I think it's it's a, you know, I'm not saying it's the only thing in a relationship is respect. There's also no, no, no having fun together. There's also have being able to connect intimately, you know, being able to connect relationally.

It's it's one building block of a relationship to say, wow, this person is making wise choices. And that's really I feel a sense of like, wow, I see what this person is and there's substance. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying is that feeling.

So I get that part and I'm saying, how do you feel about that?

I feel good.

Good, grateful.

Yeah. Yeah.

Feel optimistic.

Like. Yeah.

Hopeful and courage. Like that's very different than, you know, I'm finally seeing the thing I've been entitled to from the beginning, or I'm finally getting the thing that I wish I had or that I used to have. Like, those are just different expressions of this new version of respect or this newfound respect.

If I can speak, I, I don't feel like his respect is the few finally respect like I, I don't feel that way. Good, good. But I. I think why I'm crying is because what I would do, like even more than respect, is compassion.

I hold a lot of compassion for them because in lots and lots and lots of compassion, you don't feel that.

I feel like,

I listen and listen and listen and say, oh, I feel the same way. I understand and oh, that's really tough. That's really hard. Yeah, I guess true. Like they've we've gone through really, really tough times and yes, it's hard. This is hard. This is hard. Yeah. I listen and listen and listen and listen and listen and listen and say whoof. That's tough. Lots.

Clearly you're kind of fed up with it.

It's a lot. It is. That's what I.

Don't know how to not be alone.

But I don't know, I feel like for you saying I don't have feel compassion.

Well, that's not what she said.

What?

That's not what I said. What did I say? Zach?

You said what I more than respect what I would like is compassion. And I said, I am compassionate. And what that makes me think is maybe you have different definitions of compassion, because if one of you is like I am, the other one's like, yeah, but I need more, then that's that becomes the mystery. Oh, wait, hold on. More than what are you talking about? Like, and this is where I think we have to figure out, and there's you know, there's consequences to whether or not you can come together on the definition of compassion and what that looks like. But I don't doubt that I was compassionate. I think I was, I think I was you have told me he's loving.

He's kind of. Yes, he just isn't. It's not landing for you in a way that's valuable. And some of that is your work, right? Some of that is you saying, I can receive this as compassionate and not as, you know, almost there or kind of there or not quite enough. I mean, you you have a whole story that predates IRA about your enoughness and because that.

Say, the bulk of our relationship, the bulk of our time together, is you expressing things you're anxious about.

It's true. Well, a lot of you.

Listening.

A lot has to do with our.

Kids and holding you. And while you cry and just say, that's good, you know, cry it out. Go for it, I totally understand, it totally makes sense. I feel it too. That's the bulk of our conversations. Right. So not.

Untrue.

So to say to me that I'm not what were you saying.

You know what. Let me can I just like back.

But you need more compassion for me. Well that makes me feel really like what I feel like I'm overflowing with that too. Like the point of accepting.

Me.

That it's 90 something percent of what we do. So for me to take out even more compassion, more of that, I don't, you know, and it's let's say that I don't have it feels like.

I didn't say I don't have.

It all of.

That. I didn't say that. You don't have that enough. There's something. There's something painful for me in that gaining having to gain your respect thing like that. That feeling like I was.

It's trying to say I. It's positive about.

Yeah.

The hard choices you made. And then it's beautiful and it deserves respect. It's great.

You know, I might have picked this fight because it was it was me that originally kind of was like, I wonder what that is.

It's not, it's a fight. But there is something there's like a loop that's not being.

Yeah, I'm seeing you're making hard choices and and shifting, habits and making and being intentional, and it's really impressive and beautiful. I just want to acknowledge that.

Thank you.

I guess maybe the the part that's hard is whether or not. Respect or love. Compassion is is conditional. You know, like in general, it's just a it's a question that people have to grapple with from time to time. And I think it's amazing that you're making choices for your health and for your wellness. I think that's we've all acknowledged that's going to be part of the puzzle. And I think it's amazing that I can see that and reward it and go, hey, this is this is really cool and it's beautiful and I love it. And oh, by the way, by the byproduct inside of me is additional respect, which is great. And I hope that I mean, I think that that's the land that we want to live in.

But if somehow we're not closing that gap, communication wise or experience wise, then, you know, again, each of you has this work to do to kind of stay in, I don't know, sort of a healthy self-esteem kind of space where, Andrea, you remember the thing that you said about what you had to offer the fight? I've got a lot to offer her. I have so much to give her. Like, you are a fully formed human being with lived experience that adds value to other people. Including your two children and your young, you and your husband and your community. Like all of that is true independent of any other factor or variable, including someone else's.

Reason to.

Of respect or not for you. Yeah.

For whatever reason, right now, at this juncture in time, I'm a freakin hot mess.

Of course you are. That's okay. Just be the best hot mess. Like you can. Just be a badass hot mess. That's fine. Like, be a badass. It being a hot mess, that's that. That could be amazing. Did you guys see that? You might be a little young for this, but that, tweet that's been making the rounds right now, and it says something like.

Like you're so young by this.

I need I need Judy Blume to write a sequel called hey, God, it's me, Margaret. And now I have minis, but isn't. Seriously, what the fuck.

Dude, I'm 58 years old. Like, I, I know Judy Blume, I actually.

Oh yeah.

I guess you're not too young. Well, that's a credit to you both, because I was like, they're younger than me.

So now I'm 58, he's 50. I'm 58.

How old are you? 52. Yeah. So you were the same age? Yeah.

No, I, I like, grew up Judy Blume. And then we were having a son. I did jury duty with Judy Blume.

I remember, that's amazing. What is her forever? Forever in the school, but Sophia Loren, the other kids in the back? Yes.

Oh, man, those are the days.

Oh, well.

I hate reading books on the screens. I always buy the book bag.

Well, I don't think we're too far away. I expect the apocalypse any day now. And so all technology is going to shut down. We're going to have to go back to just wandering around and performing Shakespeare in the woods, you know, like,

Sonic. Why does that not sound bad? That sounds kind of.

Here's my here's my new cocktail party question. If there is an apocalypse right now and like 70% of the population got wiped off the planet like zombies or mushrooms or whatever it is, would you rather be in the 70 or the 30?

Be a zombie or be a zombie?

Would you rather be, like, wiped off like this? Like I'm out? Apocalypse. I'm done. 70% virus. Yeah. Clean up my dead body. Throw it in the whatever or the 3030 that has to, like.

Remake society. I bet you.

That's.

The way you frame it. I bet you'd say you'd rather just be out.

I think I'm in the 30. I think I think I'd be into, like. Yeah, I want to like, I want to build the thing. I want to be like.

I want to be in the 30. But I think I might be in the 70. Yeah, but if there is the potential for building something. No.

Yeah, I agree.

Flourishing and healing. Then count me in.

Yeah. Me too. Yeah.

Well, you guys, that's where you're at right now. You're in the potential for building something new that's flourishing. And Halo.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that there's a, you know, there's a moment that we get to sometimes where you're trying to figure out the difference between less bad and more good, like, how do we stop doing the the stuff that is problematic and how do we start doing the stuff that's actually representative of the relationship that we want? And, you know, it comes down to even something like you guys exploring the definition of compassion, like the what is it? What do you mean? Maybe it's maybe it's not even true that it is or it isn't a thing, but it's just not landing in the way that you want to. And that could also be affection. That could also be a tension, that could also be equality. That could also be me. If you're having different, sometimes it's not that a thing is or isn't there. So you just don't have a common vocabulary around it.

I, you know, there is my my fear is that there's like a hole in my bucket that the love keeps on pouring, pouring through. Because of capital T trauma. Because IRA is very loving. Is like more compassionate now than he's ever been. You know you know just this morning I was crying about some stuff and he was holding space for me. So, you know, I can imagine how challenging it is to be with somebody who has a hole in the bucket. And I, I have done a lot of work in the past, and I wish that that were enough. But obviously it comes back and back and and cycles through in different ways. If I can just go back to the respect thing, I think that something, you know, I have some deep wells of shame. And when I it, it comes to feel like it all rests on my shoulders like the function or dysfunction. This dysfunction, dysfunction of this relationship. Is on me.

Depends on me. That's when it starts feeling bad and like shame inducing you know not trying to do that. But that's what happens in me is it sends me into a shame spiral. Okay. Like I think there's a lot of shame there.

Yeah.

And it's just really triggered right now. And that shame can feel, paralyzing. Well again Jim, my defense is to feel resentment. So, so it's like this cycle that happens where you know. He wishes that I were doing more for myself to you know it feels feels to.

So do you.

Source of.

Suspicion like.

This I know yeah I got you, but you agree that you need to do more to take care of yourself?

I do, okay? I mean, it's like, let's get. Yeah, I do agree with that. Yeah.

And I agree. So we all agree that it's a good idea for you to take care of yourself and steward your shame, and to do that in a way that is also reflective of the other reality, which is that you're doing a pretty great job and you're showing up in ways that like, not a lot of moms in your situation could also show up, and you're doing it with some intention to do it. And despite some real hard challenges of your own inside your own, where your own brain works and you know, there's a there's an other side to the opportunity to feel shame. And I think that those of us who are doing the work have to, like, create enough space between that experience of shame, the kind of the, I feel ashamed and, now I guess I'm going to go in the spiral and, you know, create enough space to replace that story with a truer story, one that actually serves you.

And that is and like, peeling off the, the onion layers, right? You know, like. Yeah. Yeah, but it.

Starts, I think, with some just some patience.

Yeah.

I just some go, oh, wait, do I have to choose shame here, let me, let me decide.

I want to know how to get that. Like gap where I can use not.

Oh man, I love talking that. I love talking about this.

Because that is it's just the that neural pathway is really deep. Lee. Right. It and I would love to know how not to just automatically slalom down that course.

Yeah. You practice, you literally practice. You practice getting a little sliver, and then you make that sliver a little bit bigger. You make that sliver a little bit bigger. You practice with physical, you go outside and you feel the wind and you do. You pause and you just feel the wind for a second, and you create a little bit of like, oh, that wind is kind of cool, kind of warm, you know?

And then you pretend, you pat yourself on the back and you go, oh, look at that. I created some consciousness between an experience my body had on its skin and the way I made meaning out of it. I did a little bit of that. And then you do it with sound. Yeah. And then you do it with physical pain, and then you do it with, I don't know, smell that evokes a memory that makes you feel embarrassed because the same time you smelled grass when you were in the second grade, you also peed your pants or something like that, you know, and then you credit you a little bit more, and then literally, I'm

not kidding. You just practice and you keep practicing and you practice. And this is not any different than any I'm talking about mindfulness. Right? I'm talking about meditation. I'm not talking. But you don't have to like meditate. You can just literally I mean, practice right now. Right? The second feeling, the couch underneath your legs and then go, that's kind of weird. It's a little heavier on the left and it does on the right. And yes, I didn't think about that for and then, you know, I do I do encourage and I like toying with the physical sounds, feelings, you know, because gaining some confidence there. Then also when I go I'm really bad, I go, oh that's interesting. I wonder if I am really mad. I wonder if I'm just mad because I used to be mad when I was 13, you know? Or if I'm mad now, you know.

That's really interesting because that is kind of an approach to to create a little distance from that, those overwhelming emotions. Right. You can say instead of I'm mad, you can say I'm feeling mad. Yeah. You can say it. I notice that I'm feeling mad.

Well this is what I was asking you a little bit earlier about respect because you're feeling respect. And in an adjacent to that is could be entitlement like, like finally which we've all acknowledge is not the case. Adjacent to that could also be gratitude. You know, joy and you know, to put the space in and even to name it, to go, hey, I'm feeling more respect for you. And that also it makes me feel so happy because it's a I love respecting, you know, there's really different than, now that you've checked this box. This other box got checked inside of me and that's I'm glad that that box has finally been checked. You know.

I think I would love, like, a fuller articulation of what respect means to you, because I think in my in my most fearful moments, that's what it feels like. Oh, as long as Andrea is, like, working out, then it's it's like check and and then that's good. But like, what? Like a deeper sense of what respect means. I it's not that I don't value respect. I just think and this is probably a generalization, that it means different things for men and women. And let me show, you know, like men value.

Minimally it means different things for you, you a woman and you the man that you're in relationship with. You know, like.

I think I, I think it's one of those words that is it sets me down a, a path that maybe isn't what you mean and what is what's going on deeper with that like respect thing.

So maybe respect as a as a non helpful word here. Maybe a better word is is I I'm impressed. Are are I see more of your character asking for that.

That one.

That one okay.

Impress. No that does not work. That like is worse for me than respect.

Well the thing that I noticed about that second one, I'm impressed is that that was about you, IRA. Versus the third one or the next one that you said which is this is amazing. And it looks like looks good on you is about Andrea.

The like it shows you have mettle. It shows that you have character. It shows that you you know are doing the hard thing. You know and and doing it in a way that's authentic to you and not for, for like because in order for anything to really last, it kind of has to be. Intrinsic like yeah you're, you're holding up a mirror to me that's hard to see. But I see it in that way. I recognize the problem. I finally acknowledge that I'm scared of getting old and feeble and smart and like, you know. And so I want to do something about it, but I do I it can't be an extrinsic like it does. Like the penny has to drop for me. And I think the penny has dropped. So but to, to like say it really shows that you have character. Like it makes me. Yeah it makes even. It makes me love you more to see that character. That just like really makes me happy. And also I think there's an aspect to this where.

IRA has always said, you know when I've said in the past like why is it so important for you that I am at the same or my fear is that he's in shape, like and has always been in great shape and, and focus, you know, like takes very good care of and has since he was 18. I also have gone through periods of it, but never consistently like he has.

And I'm like and he said often like it makes me feel unseen that you that we don't have that same value. And that always felt like it was I felt like controlled by that. But I, I want, you know, like it's the deeper the deeper stuff that I love to understand about why, you know, I mean, it's obvious, like, you love me be around and be healthy so that we can live together and raise these children well and love each other, etc., etc. like that's substantial, but there does seem to be like a deeper a why for you it means so much and not for some other person. Because for some people it wouldn't.

You know. No it's it, it's, it's a, it's a core part of who I am. Right. And my values is a desire to live a long life and not just be sick in bed, you know?

Well, I don't want to be sick in bed.

Like I saw my mom diet 70, right? Like I want to live longer than that, you know? And I want you to live longer, okay? Live. This life is short, and I want to have. I want to live it really well. And that's a priority of mine, you know, and want to marry someone eight years older than you who doesn't have that same priority. Feels scary. It feels. Makes me feel unsafe. Okay. You know, so for me.

It makes me feel unsafe.

You know, the fact that, you know, to have, the some of the person I want to spend my life with and do fun things with, you know, to think that she might die early, she might be stuck, stuck in, and instead stuck in bed and from choices and, yeah. Because having those extra 20 years to really have fun and to live life together.

Yeah. As long as you do that. Right, as long as you actually do the fun living of life.

Yeah. Exactly.

Which is this is again, where you're at at the moment is, is to decide how are we going to do, you know, today, how are we going to do this? How are we going to make sure the next ten days are better? Yeah. Than the ten days before that. You know, what is the what are the small micro choices that we need to and can't make? And I think this is actually a pretty fun part of being in, thoughtful relationship with others, you know, is to go, hey, what do we need to do? Like, not forever, but like, for the next ten days, like, is there a little mini goal or is there a little is there a conversation that we need to have, or is there a way that we can actually level up in this or that space?

It makes me think to like, there are hundreds of kinds of athletes, but let's say there's two kinds of athletes. There's athletes who train to race, and then there's athletes who race to train. So I would put you, IRA, in the first category, like you train to race, like if there was a race, you could do it versus people like me. I pick a race like a marathon that I'm going to run next year, and then that keeps that keeps me training, to to the next, you know what I mean? And, Andrea, I wonder if not strictly at the Athletic level, if you are trained to race or race to train person because you may need a race like a not like a fight.

I'm not talking strictly about A5K, but like some thing out there that then you pile up your care regimen in order to achieve, you know. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be a it doesn't have to be a physical or physiological goal. It could literally be a parent to go. But something that said, I know how to contain this.

Race, a train person.

Yeah, I definitely you. So you know, what is that target? And then what are the pieces that go into place because you.

Don't have that many external. Like I have some, some issues sometimes with executive function and I don't have a job, I don't, you know, like I've been in the parenting machine. Yeah. The machine. Yeah. And you know, I. Yeah, like something that.

I don't know, maybe you need to target. And again, I'm not talking strictly about A5K, but something that you can look at out there and go, I'm aiming at that thing over there so that all the stuff that's right here, the mother machine, has a context which is bigger than I am overwhelmed right now on this Saturday afternoon, it could be this is in service of the theoretical five K I'm going to run or the the million dollars I'm going to raise or the, the, the parent thing. I'm the conversations I'm going to have with five year old me over the next, the the ten critical conversations I'm going to have. Okay, I got you, kid. Real kid, living kid. Other living kid. Then you go and you have your like secret, edifying conversation with your self and that becomes so literally could be anything. Something though, that helps you.

You go, I'm a badass and I and I got this, you know, and then IRA, I think, you know, for you, it's something like appreciating and cultivating gratitude for the the upside, you know, and really leaning into that and sort of separating your I think this is a pretty important piece in general, but it feels like it also is important piece for you. But separating your capacity or. Straight up your, just your, your edification or your satisfaction inside of your marriage from her, from other like, I think when you can cultivate inside of yourself just real gratitude for the things that are going well and like lean into the things that are that you're impressed by, then you can kind of take courage and confidence in that, in that gratitude versus in the execution of the thing that's happening over there. Does it make sense.

To find a connection and gratitude to the positive things that are happening and Andrea or, and the relationship or in me or in life?

Well, I guess maybe if I come at it just if I reverse engineer it or I come at it from another direction, to the degree that your marital satisfaction is dependent upon her behavior or the way that she shows up, then you're always just subject to Andrea. And I'm saying lean into the IRA part, which is that when he when IRA finds out that he's impressed, or when IRA finds out that IRA has more respect, can they can can in an other part. Go, man, that's very cool gift that you got from your amazing partner. Oh yeah. Versus you know what I mean. Like there's that's the 52 year old version or the wise version or the sober version or the, you know, the functional version that says, all right, now let's see if we can leverage this. You know, for something like connection, that that's where the that's where the real work is.

And I think whether that for the two of you is through conversation or through activity or through, you know, star chart that you make and you, you check things because you just value things in different ways. And so learning how to talk about like, how do we appreciate what compassion is for each of us or what connection is for each of us, like those are those are really critical. Increase.

Does that make sense IRA. Like does that. Subtle.

Yeah I mean I think to find I mean I definitely don't you know happiness needs to come from the inside right. Like like life and life as this. Well that is inside of us you know. And I think to connect to that for happiness and not to an external meaning whatever that be a another, you know, a good marriage, kids that listen to you. Yeah. And, success and work, you know, you know, like to have that core state of happiness in the inside is is such a secret, to life itself. Right? It's like a. Yeah, it's a city that with its own well, and, garden, you know, can withstand that long siege. Not having that. So. Yeah. And I think, and I think I, you know, I feel like the more life I live, the more, contemplation and meditation and prayer.

I am going deeper and deeper into that. Yeah. And I think actually doing that has kind of enabled me to take this step of bringing up this issue, you know, I think and and it's I've swallowed it for a long time.

I mean, you've brought up this issue periodically many times.

But it's you've but it I have brought it up, but now I'm bringing it up in a way that is more focused and intentional and coupled with, you know, I want to live a long, interesting and enjoyable life with you. And I'm scared that might not happen. You know, I'm scared of all. And I really want to see, you know, part.

Of you is scared of that.

Yeah.

Part of you.

Scared. Yes. And there's, there's. I have all different parts.

Yeah, yeah. And so the part of you that scared can be scared. And the part of you that's courageous can, I think, continue to build this place. What did you call it? A city with. Say it again.

Anyway. The well in a garden. You know.

A city with a well. You build this.

And I.

See. And then you say, I'm here, come here, come, come, come here. I'm gonna make this is hospitable as possible. This is actually my whole philosophy. And, and, I'm, I'm I'm completely committed to it. So there's the idea that your job is to go to the healthy place, cultivate it, grow it up, and never leave. Like, build a lighthouse, throw a ladder over the edge, say Andrea, or say, IRA, I'm here. I'm here in the Rebecca. I'm here. That's, you know, in the healthy place. Come here, I got you. I'm. I'm going to keep building nothing rather do for you to come in here, but I'm not going out there. I'm not going out there to the unhealthy place.

And, you know, each of you, if you share that commitment, then there's really don't have any option but to have created an amazing, healthy, beautiful place that is hospitable to now your kids and the trauma that's been passed down from generation to generation and say, no, this is the healthy place. You guys just have different definitions of health, and each of you has different paths to get there. And, you know, the real learning is, you know, is what is it going to take for me to get there and it's different for each of you. And because you prioritize different things body, mind, soul, spirit. So, you know, how do we collaborate? Let's think in Heather day about how many times, couples tell me they want to be on the same team.

And I make sure. Yeah, but when you're putting the team together, you know, in the movies, you go to the construction site, you get the first guy, and you go to the zoo to get the second guy, and you go to the laboratory to get the third guy, and you go to, like, McDonald's to get the next guy, you know, and you got everybody's got different skills. And ideally, the two of you are doing the, the work of collaborating with your different skills in order to create this thing that is in the sort of new space. Right.

And I think that that's really important for me is to to have him realize, and he says he does that. What it looks like on me is different than what it looks like on you. Because I'm a 58 year old woman. Mom was raised in a very different environment. Is you who has different, different stuff, you know, different DNA, different personality. Yeah. But I do I do think that we have enough overlap.

Yeah, well, my two guys are amazing.

Yeah. You know.

Your friendship and your respect for each other is apparent. It's evident like that. You have a you have a lot of maturity and affinity and you have some other messages that shout real loud. And you need to figure out how to pause and slow down and create choice into that space and make that choice for health, so that when you both are there, you can really reap the benefits.

Yeah.

I you know, I think it's interesting, you know, that idea of being a marriage as being yoked together. Right. The idea of like to, oxen to.

You know, beasts of burden.

Pulling the same yoke, you know, that they're going the same direction. Right? There's that. The idea of like, if one Oxford oxen wants to go to the left and the other one wants to go to the right, you know, it's not going to be a good relationship. That right. It's the idea is like aligning. Where are we going? You know, like, yeah. Are we going to the same spot to the same direction. Right. And I think that's what I really want to do now is really get aligned that we both have the mutual similar values, similar goals of where we want the rest of our life to look like, you know, and, and that we both are like, yeah, that's what I want to do. Let's do that together.

Yeah.

You know, all.

I'm saying is for now, start with the next ten days.

Yeah. And my snout has been in the earth, like going like, damn, this road is hard. You know, the the.

Which it is.

We've done some big things like moving here was a big thing.

And we're in the middle of it now, right. So we're having some hard conversations. Probably the wrong timing, right. I like moving. So like I mean isn't there statistics like some of the most challenging things for a marriage is death of a family member. Right. Like losing a job. But other big ones is being moving and renovating a house, and we're doing both simultaneously right now. We are moving and renovating a house and having these hard conversations. So kudos to us for.

Like and.

Also for being strong, able to have built a bigger.