Parenting, Partnership, and Playing by Our Own Rules with Brian and Toby

What is what is your podcast?

It's it's dads and daddies.

Oh, right on.

And, it's me. I'm the dad. And then my co-host is a daddy in the. He says in a spiritual and sexual sense. And, we're both gay men of a certain age. My co-host is 42. I'm 51. And it's about being gay men, you know, over a certain age, but still being sexual beings. And, you know, we're both in open marriages. We talk very openly and honestly about that. My co-host is also in recovery from, crystal meth and alcohol addiction. So he speaks very openly and honestly about that. And, episodes vary from either, having a guest or just us, like picking a topic. So we've done topics like as, as large has like spirituality or love or, but also, about like sex in public or, the apps.

Yeah. Or yeah. The, the gay hookup apps and stuff like that. So, and then, yeah, we've had guests that range from like Broadway talent and, and comedians to porn stars, like, healers and like, you know, activists, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, I love that. I love that, because, you know, part of my goal, on marriage therapy radio has been to just interview different couples from all walks of life for about seven years. There was a show that had a co-host, and we did, you know, similar stuff. We we kind of talked about topics of the day, and they had guests from time to time, and we had a little banter that we kind of did. She left the show at the end of last year, and this year I've been trying to figure out, like, how do I do more? How do I just get a broader range of voices and influence? It's like I as a couples therapist, I have this, opportunity to listen to lots and lots of different kinds of stories. And I've had gay men in my practice.

We've never had anybody on the podcast like you guys. Well, first gay couple on the podcast. Well, not the first gay couple. We've had a lesbian couple. But I don't want to be like, oh, you guys are the gay couple. That's going to tell us everything there is to know about gay relationships. But it's worth noting the spoiler alert for, like, you know, but I'm also just interested in you guys, like, just how do you make it work? Like, and it sounds like you're pretty fluid in terms of the ability to talk both personally and more culturally and globally. Yeah. Which will be exciting for our people. So yeah, for sure.

Yeah, yeah.

And so, Brian, you told us a little bit about you, Toby, what's your what's your gig? What who who are you? My, in the world.

My day gig is I am, executive producer and co-founder of a small animation production studio for advertising.

Yeah. And then your family is. You guys have two daughters, two of us.

And then we have a nine year old daughter and a six year old daughter.

Yeah. What's that like? I have two daughters, two their 18 and 22. So I have some notion of what you're dealing with.

But you, you're you're our crystal ball, Yeah.

Well, I've been saying for years, I think, parenting young adults is harder than parenting young kids, but,

Yeah, well, we think parenting young kids is far harder than parenting toddlers and babies. So, yeah, it's more and more complicated as we go.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I have found and I've heard this before, that it becomes, you know, more and more, less and less hands on and more and more, emotional. So I think we're just starting to enter into that. But that dynamic in the house right now is spectacular because they still really like us and they're super independent. You know, they're.

They're obsessed with each other.

Yeah. And but they're showering themselves. They're, you know, brushing their teeth. They can make a sandwich if they need to, but they still want to hang out with us. Yeah. I feel like right now is kind of a sweet spot. You know, if we've got a fifth grader and a second grader, but, I can start to see, you know, there's been a door slammed here and there. So we're certainly, you know, there's more excitement on the horizon, right?

And and the spirit of dads and daddies, you guys have different roles, or at least you label them differently inside your home. Is that right?

Yeah. So. Well, I mean, yes and no. So, in our home. So Dads and Daddies is the podcast, and I'm the one of the two, hosts as a father at home. I'm papa, he's daddy. And, you know, we have found that because we don't have to kind of follow the kind of expected paths that we've been able to carve out what works best for each of us and what, like, kind of speaks to each of us. So, for instance, the kitchen is Toby's domain, and then, like, bedtime is my domain. And then there's other places where we just balance. So when our first one was an infant, because obviously there was nobody breastfeeding in the home, we were bottle feeding from the get. And what that meant was that we could alternate, who got up with her.

And that eventually evolved into once she was sleeping through the night, who's like, who got up with her each morning. So we would alternate mornings and we've kept that through today. So, we alternate who gets up with the kids each morning, gets them ready for school, and then on the weekends. What that means is that each of us gets one day of the weekend to sleep in, and we have it's our own rule that we've developed over time that, whoever sleeps in just has to be down by 11 a.m.. So, so there's ways that we completely just split responsibilities and then there's other ways where, like, we each kind of own our, our domains. And then there's also the like I kind of own the, you know, making of doctor's appointments or, stuff like that.

He's the, family manager. I'm the.

House man. And. Yeah. Yeah. And but but like, when it comes to managing, whether it's renovations or fixes or whatever it is to the house, that's definitely Toby.

Yeah. Right. I love that.

I can only tell you that you're getting it right, at least in terms of, like, the what? I think because my wife and I used to when our kids were about was younger than yours, but we would lie in bed on the weekends and we would play this game called pretend who could be asleep the longest.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, love this game.

I was better at that game. And so, you know, she'd wake up and she would go and go on an adventure and build a tower and have a five course breakfast. And, you know, I'd come out later. I'd be like, how are you? I'm so tired. Like, oh, you should just woke me up. Which made it worse. Right?

Right. Oh, yeah.

So we ruined all of Saturday, and then we finally came up with this rule, which was dad gets up on Saturday, mom gets up on Sunday. There's never changes. Yeah, it was not negotiable. It didn't matter if you were hungover. It didn't matter if you had a meeting that day. Like nothing like it. And so we just eliminated the guesswork, right? To make it cleaner and clearer. So nice job. Way to go.

Yeah, but but we really did. Look into it organically. It really was based on bottle feeding. So it was just an early, early transition in our household. And it's been so nice. And it's something you can rely on. And we'll often, you know, we'll be going to bed and I'll be thinking about the next day setting alarms and I'll be saying, I'll say to I'm like, I am so glad it's not my morning. Yeah, so, so sorry about.

How is it already my morning.

Again. Yeah. Off in there. Yeah.

We didn't have the down by 11 rule, but we had this rule which was the sleeping parent could have no opinions about what the waking parent did while they were sleeping. Yeah. So like I.

I love that.

Because I would be like, she would do all that stuff and I would get up and I'd be like, let's watch a show. And I would fall asleep.

On the couch again, right, right, right.

And I was like, sorry, you don't get to choose what I do. Well, you get to sleep in.

Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Yep. I think we have a kind of a similar dynamic. I think 11 is kind of when the day starts around here on weekends, unless there's a game or another plan or a play day. But we get plenty of mornings where it's just kind of chilly. Today is a, you know, Saturday morning. And the girls alternated between some time on the Nintendo Switch, some time up, throwing a birthday party for their dolls, some time running around outside, and then a little TV show and most of it. I was, casually engaged. Yeah, yeah. Right on there. They're really getting along right now. So it's it's a nice time to like. Yeah. Watch them enjoy. Well, what do we what.

Do we need to know about? Like, is there is a is it a is it enough. Is it important enough to talk about a gay marriage relevant relative to a regular marriage or a heterosexual marriage, not a regular marriage? That's better. Sexual marriage to to know what's what's the same. And what's different. Like what make me smarter? Because, not not just me, but like our people. Like, what is it? Yeah. What would you. What? What's the CliffsNotes? What's the elevator speech about all that.

I think our advantage is, is that we got to observe straight marriage and birth marriage through a straight lens for so long that we got to kind of take what we want from it, believe behind what we don't. And so I think that there is an advantage there and that we get to build from a foundation, but we can build the house however we want. And I think that that's a lot of our rules, are based around like giving each other as much freedom as possible while still keeping a happy, controlled household where the girls get, you know, the majority of our attention when we're around.

Yeah. I mean, I think, just being gay, growing up gay in and of itself, kind of breaks you from living up to expectations, living, you know, within the rules. You're told very early on that, you are outside the norm. And, so for so many reasons, I think it almost better equips you later on in life because, like Toby said, we can we can build it the way we want. But also, there's kind of other advantages, because I couldn't live my life up in kind of the regular timeline, I couldn't, you know, meet a boy, you know, back when I was coming out. I'm 51. So, you know, when I was growing up, it was the 80s. It was very different than it is now. You couldn't like, I couldn't find a boyfriend in school and, you know, ask a boy to do dances and then all of that.

So I got to I had to start all that much, much later in life. And what that also meant for me is that I kind of could determine what was really important to me in finding somebody and kind of wait until I found that right person. So, so I didn't meet Toby until I was 38.

Yeah, yeah.

And where did you.

Grow up, Brian? Where did you grow up?

In Los Angeles. About suburb of Los Angeles.

Toby. Rural Ohio. Yeah.

And when did you come out, like, when did you like where you gay? As a elementary school kid? Middle school car. School kid? I was at later.

I was gay in my head, but I. Yeah. I think there's two coming out right there was, there's that period of life where, you know, I had crushes that I can trace back to kindergarten, first grade. But then, do you convince yourself that that's normal and everyone has these feelings and they just kind of repress them? So you do repress them? And then I remember at 16 on some internet search, and I'm not sure what it was, I'm sure it was not entirely savory. I realized I was like, oh, dang, I really am gay. I'm going to have to be this thing my entire life. This is not something I'm going to have to hide. You know, I realized I was gonna have to tell my parents I was going to tell. And I remember, like, it was shocking to me. It it wasn't that the feelings hadn't always been there, but it was this realization that, like, this is really something I'm not going to be able to escape.

And I even, like, went and looked in the bathroom mirror and I was just like, deep breaths and like coming to terms with that. But I still didn't tell anybody, friends or family. My first person I told was my sister when I was 19 because I wanted to be in college, and I had good liberal hippie parents. I mean, they were lovely and have always been lovely, really. I mean, you know, there's always some awkwardness in coming out, but it was overall a very good experience. But I knew that I wanted to be out of the house. You know, I just I didn't want to tell anybody.

I came out right after I got to college. Like, within weeks of getting to college, to my to the people I was meeting at school. And then, over time, built up the confidence to come out, to my family. So, yeah, I was, you know, in a strange way, like the, the self-discovery around sex and love and all of that, that happens for so many people, starting with puberty, like for us, is delayed by, you know, almost a decade. Yeah. And so I credit that with the fact that I, by the time I was ready to find my person, like, I had. I had figured out what what that what I needed and I, you know, I look at, so many straight people in my life who get married at a certain age because it's just that's what's expected and.

100%, you know.

100% for us there. I mean, again, things have changed because, you know, get marriage equality.

And this might be a micro generation.

Yeah. But much appreciate it. But for us, like as much as my mom always wanted me to find somebody and I think whether it was marriage or, you know, domestic partnership or whatever, she wanted me to have that person there. Once you come out of the closet, at least back then, that expectation that you will get married, you know, it like kind of falls away, which is, as you know, allows you a kind of freedom. Yeah.

There's a relief in that. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, Brian, you and I are the same age. I'm 52 and I grew up in. I wouldn't call it rural, but I grew up in South West Virginia, so it was a little more unusual than the Northern Virginia. Anyway, and I get it, like, I don't I don't think I knew of anyone that was gay in my high school, or they certainly weren't asking anybody to prom or whatever. The thing that I've heard a couple times that would be interesting to hear you guys talk about, maybe you just did is a lot of my queer clients will say, I spent so much time wrestling with my sexuality before, like grappling with my sex like that. I guess those are the same, but I spent so much time thinking about my sexuality and way that heterosexual people have never really had to do is just sort of, oh, this is the thing.

This is the normal thing, right? And so they're confident and comfortable in ways that I certainly am not like. I grew up as an evangelical Christian. Like I didn't have sex, I was married, and that's because that was the rule. And, you know, and anything that was connected to sex before I was married was shame based. And, you know, and I didn't do that. The work of like churning through it from 16 to 19 and the same way that sounds like you guys have done. And then it's led you into this space. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about that if if I'm on the right track.

Yeah. Well, I mean, the funny thing is that we have to find our own way through learning about sex in the queer.

And,

Again, I'm talking about when I was growing up in the, in the 80s and 90s. And so you end up learning much of it through kind of, for lack of a better word, like subversive, resources, you know? Yeah. And, and I think that's another reason why we end up being kind of a little bit more open minded about all of the various permutations of sex. And also, you know, again, you're told for so much of your life that that kind of sex is wrong and disgusting and, you know, against God and all of these things, unnatural and so, once you do kind of find your way into it and see how wonderful it can be, it's, you know, it's kind of almost more celebratory, I think. And, and, and another thing I think about, kind of related is that because we spend so much of the beginning of our lives really tortured.

Not once we have moved beyond that. And feel free to be ourselves. We're really excited to have fun and and really like to finally be able to have that childhood that we didn't really get. Yeah. Yeah. So I also think something that, in terms of parenting really benefits us is that we just have such an appreciation for fun and so much of we are always looking for ways to have fun, as a family. I think I got a little bit of a off topic there, but.

I think that there's something to that, though, is like, there's so much stress in your upbringing that, for me, I'm just, like, looking for low stress. Good times. Whether that's at home work or, you know, going out or celebrating life with friends. You know, obviously our lives look different than many gay men because we chose to domesticate ourselves and have kids, but, like, we. Yeah, when we do a week in Provincetown or weekend in Fire Island or even just going out for a night, it's like there is so much joy in gay life. They are that I think comes from that, like this need to celebrate or this excitement to continuously celebrate that you have gotten through the journey of grappling with your sexuality, which which is a real thing.

And you were saying you're always told, growing up that you are, that it's morally wrong and that it's unnatural. But, Zach, to your point, I think you're saying is like you always are just seeing examples of heterosexuality. So that is the norm. And it's really through media that I was exposed to gay people, that we had the occasional family friend here and there. I guess, to be fair, but really it was like Will and Grace was when I was in high school, right? I'm adopted younger than Brian. And then, it was college, maybe was queer as folk and like before those shows and not that those are shining examples, but they were examples of queer life. It was maybe a B-movie.

I mean, I drove to 45 minutes, Parkersburg, West Virginia, from my hometown to buy a, like, VHS copy of some British B rated gay film that I watched in secret at home. Like, you know, when my parents were at work, because it was just like an example of queer life. And it was something I found. I was so nervous buying that VHS of The Cops or something like that.

That's so funny. I'm going to tell you a story about, Will and Grace real quick because, it'll make my producer laugh. Jason is producing this video, and we, I used to go camping with he and his wife when we were younger, before we all had kids. This was 20, 30 years ago. Now, 20 years ago. So a little bar, my wife Rebecca, on one of these camping trips. We're talking about gay marriage and gay life. And she says gay men are some of my favorite people on the planet. And all three of us who were close, close friends of her looked at her and said, like who?

Like who, who.

Are who are you talking about? And she goes, like Jack from Will and Grace. And I was like, wait a second, that's not a real person. Like, you don't get to like, claim that these people. But you know, and now, of course, she's in love with smart less and Sean is is still one of her heroes, you know.

But it goes to show. But for Rebecca, those were people in her life. And so you need those were gay. Same as you. Yeah. It was like, yes, they really are. I mean, representation matters. Yeah. They say there's something to it that's really cool.

So how did you guys find each other like you grinder okay. Do you know. Yes, I do know what grinder is. And, you know, I know the jokes about it, like, oh, my, my, my husband plays that game too, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So. Yeah. But. To be fair, grinder has a,

The grinder is a gay sex hookup app. Yes, but, but, when we met, it did not as much as I tried. I really tried to get Toby to come over to my apartment. For a hookup. But he wasn't in the space for it. And but for whatever reason, we really clicked in that very first.

Yeah, we had fun banter, but I was more interested in finding a turkey burger. Yeah, than finding a hookup.

And I kept trying to, like, direct him where he could find a turkey burger and then come to my place. But, but what we did, which is something I never did, and I still to this day, don't do, is we traded phone numbers, and we moved it to text, and, and we ended up having a proper dinner date just a couple nights later. Our, our initial Grindr exchange was on January 1st of 2012, and then our first date was on the third. Grindr is is based. So it shows people in and the closer they are to you, the higher up they are on the on the grid. And so you get pretty accustomed to the same faces if doing this. And Toby was a brand new face and it turned out he was just bike riding around my neighborhood. He lived in a neighborhood.

It was a it was a beautiful January.

It was a strangely beautiful January 1st.

Yeah.

And, he was biking around my neighborhood. And so that's why he was a new face. And,

Yeah, I was East Village or West Village. I was very,

And I joke that I was a little bit catfished because his, his profile picture, showed, a tougher side of.

Toby, I think. But I think that's fair enough. Yeah. Yeah, I think I my I think I had to have those two beside a little.

And you weren't smiling. And the headline of the profile was rough or romantic and,

And jokes though, that he's still never seen rough. But I said it was very clear that there was a qualifier. You get rough or romantic?

Yeah. So he showed up to my apartment a few days later to pick me up for our first date, and it was just this really, like, you know, out of a fairytale first date. Like, it was just we we did not stop laughing. I think I spilled my drink at least once, if not twice, at the table.

I think you spilled your drink once at that dinner, but then at several of the dinners following which Brian sort a clumsy I. Don't. Know, you just fill your water just before. Yeah. This one. I'm nervous.

And, Yeah, it was kind of like we hit it off immediately, and then our first date, because we are gay men who been on Grindr did end, getting in bed together. And it was it was awkward.

It was not a good hookup.

We now have a very nice and have for, you know, 13 years now a very nice sex life. But that first hookup, and probably because we were so into each other, was like super awkward.

We had had big dinner, we had a couple cocktails, and I think we had had a good time. We had think there's something I mean, you know, we probably should have just ended with a guy.

Yeah. So it worked out. So the story goes, I had a dog at the time who was just about to turn three right after our hookup. It was probably after midnight at that point, and it was below zero in New York. And I had to walk my dog and so I put my dog on her leash, and we Toby and I went down the elevator together and he says to me, okay, my bike is that way, pointing one direction. And I knew that my dog, if she was going to go to the bathroom, needed to go in this other direction, which I didn't know, which he didn't know.

I thought it was like a gentleman would walk you to your car in the suburbs. I don't I was, I was like, I just figured he and Daisy were going to walk me to my bike.

But, And so, so he said, my bike is over there. And I said, okay, bye. And it's turned the opposite direction. Oh, man. And he thought that.

I was like, all right, well, walk to the bike, don't look back.

And that was it. But then a few days later, he sent me a text because, a Broadway show that we had been talking about on our date, he had been invited to go see. And so he kind of let me know that we chatted a little bit. And then a few days later, I was back on Grindr and I saw him on Grindr. And so I messaged him again.

But you already have his phone number.

I did, but I was I happened to be on Grindr because, you know, and there he was. And so I wanted to.

I, I blocked him since. Yeah.

I think I wanted to call him out for being on Grindr, see what he was doing. And then, and that we didn't get to meet up then and about a week or so past.

It was the Golden.

Globe. And then I finally, we finally connected again. I invited him to come watch the Golden Globes with me at my apartment. We did most of it without our clothes on. And, and from that point forward, we became kind of addicted to each other.

Yeah.

Yeah. What do you attribute that to? Like why, why this time and not say times before. Like what. What do you, what I think we.

Have over the awkwardness of like we had that initial hookup. I think we had made it clear after that that we there still was a fun banter and that we really had that first date was really we didn't stop laughing. There was so much we had in common. Yeah, we just I think we immediately felt really comfortable with each other. I think very fortunately, I think even 13 years later, we are still.

I was going to say.

Each other's types, each.

Other types, but also we built off of the fun of the first date. Yeah. I think, you know, somewhat cliche, but I think being each other's best friend is the base of what we have. Yeah. And then being sexually compatible has been an added benefit.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it just, I think having moved through that initial awkward moment, made it easier for that second real hanging just to be, like, super open with each other and fun and comfortable and, and then, yeah, I mean, from that point forward, I think there wasn't a day that went by that we weren't in touch at least.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I have this pet theory that, you guys can speak to, and it's it's not really mine, but it's this idea that long term, committed relationships or relationships are designed to last about three years. This comes from, like, origin of the species situation where you have survival of the fittest. So you guys have been together 13 years? Yeah, that's four and a half cycles.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you think of like, do you think of your relationship in phases, like can you look back and go, oh, phase one was like this, phase two was this, how do you how do you define that?

For me, there's maybe the initial period where we were dating and then through my moving in is is one short phase. But then the next phase was when we were, in I moved into his West Village apartment, you know, and I rented, so when my lease was up and it was seven months into our relationship and it's a classic New York story is like, do I sign another year lease or do I save some money and move in with.

This person who I'm already spending all my night? Yeah, exactly. Yeah yeah.

Yeah yeah, yeah.

That's more than New York, by the way.

Yeah, yeah for sure. Everywhere. Yeah. But so we, we had about three years in that apartment, which was in a lovely apartment. It was a nice one bedroom, but in a doorman building with a little terrace and like. So it's just fun to host and be a gay couple there. Kind of. It has a very, like, sitcom vibe, and we would see a ton of theater, and it was just two subway stops up and dinners out. And like, that was a very lovely era, which we could still be in had we made different choices, but recently got married and decided to have kids. And then therefore we needed more space. And that moved us out to Brooklyn. And so then I think that obviously was a very nother clear era. And I think having young kids is probably another three and a half year block. That's a.

Very different experience from what I was just describing now. Where our kids are are very different than they were just 3 or 4 years ago. Yeah, I think we're now in an, another phase for. Sure. Yeah, yeah.

But I, I also think that our phases have kind of been determined. Sure. By everything you're talking about, like. Yes, our lives together before marriage, then like or before living together. Living together kids and now older kids. But there's also this other part that we opened up our marriage. About a year and a half or two. Almost two a year and a half to two years into our marriage. But, it was very much don't ask, don't tell for a very long time. And then, I started this podcast a year and a half ago, and all of a sudden, you're telling.

Telling a lot, right?

It's been.

Telling everything and all.

Telling something.

And, telling everything and.

Still know.

Asking. Yeah.

And what that did.

Is, it.

I mean, our, our open relationship has evolved over time, even in advance of the podcast. I talk about how when we started, we had a, you know, significant amount of rules and then as you realize, how much you love and trust each other, how much you feel. Compulsion, which is this? And, you know, the concept of compulsion.

You know, I know it, but go ahead and tell us what it is, because.

Yeah, of course, which is when you, like, really take pleasure in the pleasure that your partner gets in being sexual with other people.

Is it that specific?

It's actually, well.

Or intimate, or.

Maybe just the happiness you get from seeing someone else's happiness.

Sure. But I think it has been largely linked with linked with open marriage and open and, and. Yes. And so the rules like one by one, kind of like start to fall away. But since the podcast, where I speak very openly about my personal life, as does my co-host, who's also in an open marriage but doesn't have kids, are openness with each other just in terms of talking about our, our, you know, extracurricular sexual activities. Has I feel like kind of unlocked an entirely new level of, intimacy, closeness, feeling, free. I think, you know, I, as you know, like the more you talk about something, the more you kind of like, learn about it and yourself anyway. And so I've just been doing having these conversations every week on the pod, but also then, you know, Toby is the first person to listen to every episode.

He also does all of our editing for us. And so it's just opened up a lot of conversation between the two of us. And, I think we've just learned so much about ourselves, each other, and, and one thing I think we didn't necessarily realize, when we opened up and now it's clear to us, is that, it kind of goes back to, if you love someone, set them free, like, we believe that the more freedom and autonomy that you can give somebody back in a relationship, you know, the happier kind of everyone is. And there's so much, like, deep love and trust here that there's kind of no reason to not have afforded each other that. So to me, yes, there's the phases you're talking about based on just like life cycle, life cycle. But I feel like the last year and a half, we've also had this other phase of being like, more honest and open with each other than we ever have.

That has made me at least feel like more close.

Yeah, I agree, I mean, not that I think they were secrets before because we weren't allowing them to be secrets, but I think for me, at first when we were, when we open things up, I didn't want to, whether it was I was hooking up too much or too little or to be comparing with you, I think that there was maybe some shyness there. So I liked the idea of a don't ask, don't tell. And I felt freedom to also just, like, kind of have my own secrets. Again, once you when you're sharing so much with someone. But I do think that just with time and certainly with the podcast, just there's become a comfort with, knowing everything. And. Yeah. And I think that is healthier. But I think for me at least, the that was the way in was the way in.

Yeah for sure. Yeah.

So yeah you're right. It evolves.

Yeah. That's crazy. What do you what this is a just like a question that I'm not sure is fully formed yet. Sure. How do you if people are clear that they want to experience compassion. Yeah, but they don't want to experience non-monogamy. Like, if they're like, what do you offer to those folks like, is it they. I really want to get to the place where I celebrate your happiness. But I'm also clear that I'm I have a boundary around monogamy. Like what? What's the what's the gray area for those folks?

Can I say for me, the gray area might be wrapped up in how we were defining conversion earlier. Like everyone maybe has a different way. So maybe it's not the exact right word. But I still celebrate when Brian's sleeping in and I'm up early with the girls because it does make me feel good that one of two things is happening up there, maybe, maybe one of 3 or 4 things. But he's certainly is either sleeping and getting well-earned rest from a long week, or he's working on a personal project. And I know that that's also important to him. And so being able to take care of him by by managing the house and the children in that moment really does bring me joy. Yeah. And I think that that also, do you choose.

That or is that just like, does that happen to you? Like are you like, nope, I choose joy in his rest or renewal or is that just is that part of your personality?

That's such a good question. I think it just comes from loving him and caring about him though, right? I think that is part of what I yeah, I think, I hope I, I try to like tend to you. I know you tend to me like you tend to the girls and like so I think it's just part of that. So yes, I get to choose because I mean, I certainly don't begrudge you a much. Yeah.

So I've been doing a lot of, like reading about, relationships. The more, you know, I've been talking about them. And, there was a book I read called the 8080 marriage. Yeah. Which is about how, you know, you should.

Nate, Nate and Kaylee. Yes. Yeah, yeah, they were on the podcast a while back. Oh, amazing. Amazing.

Yeah, yeah. And, and I don't mean to sound like, boastful or like I'm patting myself on the back, but so much of it, for me, was just like, well, yeah, that's how we do things. And and the conceit of the book is that you shouldn't be striving to to split things 5050, because then there's always this kind of, keeping score and there's, there's, you know, resentment around, you know, am I doing more than half? But when you're both trying to contribute 80%, I know that kind of falls away. And I think we've always both wanted the other person to feel, as taken care of and supported as possible, and that we've always taken pride in that, like, anytime that we can make the rest of the family feel that, you know, we've got them.

We're taking care of them. We're going above and beyond. It just feels really good for us. So, so, yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of what you're talking about. And it did kind of like, for me at least, come very naturally.

Yeah. I think it's something that you have to always work at, because obviously we go through phases where, you know, there's the taking for granted of each other's, care. But, but I think we do our best to, to work at it and practice that appreciation for each other. But I think that, you know, you're saying, you know, I think there's that natural want to give and enjoy, like, appreciate the freedoms and the, happiness of your partner. But I also think for us, it's been really nice to have these set boundaries where we know when we're going to be free and when we're going to be called upon to work. And that is just in the every other mornings or when you get to sleep in. And that extends even to knowing that, like, I will be providing dinner for the family and cleaning it up, the girls clear their plates.

Finally after nine years. But, but I am happy to do the dishes. It's a fine chore. And, And then I know that I get some freedom while Brian's doing bedtime and that I. You know, I like a toddler. I shower at night, and so I just, like, that's my time where I can, like, unwind and should be reading. But probably I'm on TikTok and like, you know, there's just there's these little freedoms that I that I know are coming. Yeah. And I think that those are nice. Sometimes when you're wrapped up in the chaos, it's good to like, look ahead. You know.

I think one thing we both agree on, is the importance of expectations. And just like setting and managing and keeping expectations. And, you know, I really believe that, the meeting of expectations is kind of what keeps everybody happy and calm. And it's when expectations aren't met that is when like, resentment can set in. So I think, you know, that's what you're talking about.

Like we know that each day of the weekend, one of us will get a morning to sleep until 11. And yes, you are expected to do your tasks, dinner and kitchen and I'm expected do bedtime. And, and I think we really do try to do as good a job as possible of making sure we are communicative about, like when one can be expected to be home from wherever or when, you know, when we are needed to handle one of the kids or, you know, and, and if and if something needs to change that we've all already tried to figure out every way around that first. And and if not, then, you know, usually the other person is very understanding of it, but with enough notice and enough like context, that's usually fine.

You're making me also just think a little bit about how we just naturally work together, because even well before kids and well before, you know, owning a, a more unwieldy house than just a little condo, we both really like to plan and schedule, and neither of us was afraid to put something on the calendar or three months out, or too afraid to, like, have a plan in place of exactly when we're going to be where. And even now, we'll plan a weekend day out seven weeks ahead. You can look and it's like, you know, this two hours we're doing this, this two hours doing that. And I think we both can handle that. And I think that probably was important in our initial matching there. Could there certainly was a world where that could be a bit intense for either of us.

Yeah. And then, I think part of the joy of kids is you, you, they bend to your world. And so the girls are really good at that, too. Yeah. So I think that is just part of our dynamic. Is that, like, we work well together because we are naturally, organized in a way where we know what the expectations are for each other in any given day. Yeah.

And I have like, I got 100 more questions, but I also where of time I go, I start something new, I'm going to not be able to finish it. But, this has been really fun getting to know you guys. And I want to stay friends. My, my Rebecca is going to love this episode. She's going to be like, what? Are we going to New York to hang out with Brian?

Yeah, yeah, come hang out with us. Yeah. We love a barbecue. Yeah, come hang out.

And my daughter is thinking about moving there. She's the 22 year old who grew up, is an actress. She's, just graduated with her, BFA in theater studies. And so she's trying to figure out how to make her way and on the scene. So if we get her out there, I'll definitely give you a heads up and.

Yeah. Please do. Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Until then, Rebecca will listen to the episode and we can be the, Sean Hayes. Yeah, yeah.

I once I was on the street, I don't think I look anything like this. And this was before I had facial hair. But I once was on the street in New York and a drunk woman, got very upset with me that I would not admit that I was Sean Hayes show man some years and pretending not to be.

Because you all look the.

Same. Yeah.

I, I saw him once that I saw him once at, Abby, my daughter and I came out, a couple of years ago and saw, come from away.

Yeah. Yeah.

And because it's come from we started here in Seattle and so. All right, the original cast was still on the show at that time, and they were all Seattle people who had come out. But he was in like row three or something. And so we were we were near him and we were like.

Look, we we did it. We've arrived. We did. Amazing. Anyway, I do hope your daughter finds her way here if she wants it, especially at 22. It's such a magical time.

Well, she just said to me last night she said, if if I realize if I don't go in the next six months, I'm never going to go. Yeah.

And so she's feeling it then.

Yeah. She definitely has it in her. And she's got I mean she's got credits, she's got Netflix credits, she's got ABC credits. She's got musical theater. Her first thing was she was Amaryllis in music man here in Seattle. So amazing. Oh yeah. On the, on the regional stage. Not like, not like for school. Like. Right. Right, right. That's amazing because she tasted it. I mean, she was like, her story is she was like, I think I got an audition for a show this year. And so she went to the mall, and auditioned for a show. And within, you know, eight weeks, she was cast in the biggest stage in Seattle. And we were like, oh, that's easy. I guess that's.

I guess that's what you do. You just. That's how it.

Works. Go to the mall and get a job. And so she has never wavered off the path. So she's going to try and make it out there.

Good.

Well, listen, I'm really glad to talk to you guys. I think this will be a favorite episode for a lot of people. And, if we want to learn more about dads and daddies or just how do we do that? We just as a dad.

Yeah. And we're on Instagram at Dads and Daddies pod. We're also on TikTok at Disney Daddy's pod. Yeah, we have new episodes come out every Tuesday morning.

Yeah.

And, we've been out for about a year and a half. So if you start now, you can. You got about 70 episodes you can binge.

So that's very cool. Yeah. And if you ever need a generic run of the mill, a couple therapists to come out and talk about whatever. Happy to come visit. Let me see what I've got going on. So cool. Check out Brian and Toby. Toby, do you do you have a thing that you want to let us know about or you just.

I'm just here for the ride. Yeah.

If you if you listen to the pod, you'll hear all about Joey's. The intimate details of our lives.

This is true.

Very cool. Thanks, guys. Let's talk a.

Lot about the kids, too.

Yeah.