Love, Pickleball, and Kitchen Knife Moments with Dr. Stormy Hill and Teri Citterman

So this is new. This is new territory for me. You guys are will be among the first interviews that I do kind of without her. And I'm glad to have two people I really like. Couples therapy. That's my job. I'm a couples therapist. Because of this kind of the systems part of it. Like there's a there's, like, two people in the room. I'm actually very, not very good at individual therapy. I don't enjoy it. I don't it's not an area of real competence or confidence for me. So I'm glad to have two people here because this will be the first time, really that I'm talking to somebody that's not Laura. And, I get to, like, let you guys kind of run the show a little bit.

So can I clarify that we're not a couple?

No, I know you're not. I know, I know you're two people. Which is why I think, Terry, maybe I was asking you or talking to you about options that we had. And one of them was to have either of you here with your partner, like, your actual marriage partner or.

Right.

Right. Or whatnot. I do have this kind of like, desire to talk to couples, like, I do want to do that in the future. But I do understand that you guys are just colleagues who, you know, kind of wrote this book. And I'll ask you about a book to tell me about it.

Yeah. So, other.

People have asked us to, so I that's why I want to say.

You know, that we run a British podcast. And he was like, oh, you guys are a couple. We were laughing so hard. We're like, oh, yeah, no we're not.

But but you can think we are fine.

Yeah. Whatever floats your boat, right? Yeah. Okay. Well, Terry cinnamon, doctor. Stormy Hill, thank you for joining me. You guys have written a book about pickleball, which is. I have a confession to make. I have never played pickleball. I don't even think I've picked up a pickleball paddle in my life. I do belong to a swim and tennis club, so I have a, like, a tennis thing that I'm. I don't know if they're, like, rivals or something. Kind of like. But we can talk about that. But talk to me. Talk to it. Hi. Welcome. And. Hi. Tell me about you. And tell me about your book. And let's let's get rolling. Actually, tell me what you think about the fact that I've never played pickleball. That's an I'm actually really interested.

Go ahead, Terry, you take that on.

I have many thoughts on that, Zach, especially since you live in Seattle.

Right?

The home of pickleball founding. So I think you need to immediately pick up a paddle and get to the nearest court.

Well, it sounds like if I do, I might be in trouble, because if I play with my wife, it's apparently some some real problems may emerge quickly.

So we've got we've got solutions for you and your wife playing together.

Yeah. I would agree with theory, Zach. I think so I came round times background as well as many, many pickleball players do. And now I say I came from the dark side, which is hilarious because I. Tennis was a huge part of my life for many, for decades. But I think pickleball is absolutely amazing, life changing, community building, you know, amazing exercise. There's just tons and tons of benefits.

Why? Why is pickleball so great?

So I mean, we there's a whole there was an app pedal tech wrote an article about that. You know, they always joke that it's a cult, but they talk about it's actually an allegiance. And there really is such a deep allegiance to it. For me, I can't speak for me. For me, it was the it's the community. It's the playfulness. It's the exercise. And it's really just that you can, you know, bring your paddle anywhere you go. We had Terry took her paddle to India with her. I took my iPad. We go. We've gone to Mexico and played. And so, the accessibility and and the fact that, you know, an 80 year old could be playing with her great grandson and both could be having fun like, that's so unique to pickleball.

Okay. But also, I saw this video, where some guy, like, kicked another guy in the face. Did you see that video?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

What's the deal.

There? Like, I've never seen a tennis person kick somebody. I'm defending my territory a little bit, but what's going.

On that that that that was unique. Before I address that, the other thing is, I would say from a general pickleball standpoint, first of all, it's called pickleball. So how can you not have fun? Yeah. And a game called pickleball. Yeah. Secondly, it's a smaller court. And so you're really social with the other people. So it's very fun in that way. The game was founded on being able to hold a paddle and a drink at the same time. So you know, what's not to love about pickleball? So.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. The whole kicking in the face thing, that was something. And I would say that's pretty unusual, except that when stormy and I were playing doubles in Costa Rica at a tennis or a pickleball tournament, there was, what, three fights that broke out? Same guy each time. But that happened. So I'm not going to say it's a violent sport, but I'm going to say that some people competitiveness gets a little out of hand.

It stirs passion.

Perhaps it's totally passion. Yeah.

So I read that you guys met in Costa Rica, through pickleball, or did you like bumping into each other and just happened to have paddles in your hand? Or how does that work?

Through pickleball? Yeah, we have pals in our hands.

Yeah. So how did that how did you come to, like, how did you decide to, like, how did your relationship begin to form and how did you end up deciding to write a book?

Yeah, I think, you know. So for we are both we both have homes in Costa Rica and we both spend time down there. And we were playing down there. I was we were both pretty new to the game. And I was like, wait, who is this woman like? You know, they're just beautiful inside and out. And she was crushing you on the pickleball court, and I liked it, was drawn to her energy. So we met and, I met her husband and my partner, my long term, my boyfriend, my boyfriend. We just. The four of us just really clicked, on and off the court, and that was the beginning of our friendship. And then when we decided I had this idea of writing the book, and I went to Terry and, you know, she's written books before, and I just knew her background and her skill set.

I said, hey, do you want to write this book? And I said, I know you're really thoughtful and you need to like I said, take some time and think about things. And she's like, nope, I'm in. And we just, all of that, did it together. You know, there's something pretty amazing about Coauthoring. It is not easy. Authoring is not easy. And you know that back and coauthoring is is additionally not easy. And I'm just, you know, I'm so grateful for how we navigated it and that writing this book has been able to be helpful for so many couples on the court and also for us deepening our friendship and our relationship.

Well, there's a couple. I mean, when I got your invitation to talk about the book, I immediately was like, I don't know, because I've never played pickleball. So but I do have, a real heart for understanding how a play works in relationships, like when you like, I have this book that I want to write. It's called In My Brain. It's called Quit Working on Your Marriage. And it's based on kind of two premises. The first one is that if you're going to do work, you should do work on yourself. And second of all, who wants to work on their marriage if play is an option. And so when I was reading through kind of the summary, and maybe you should tell me why the book will be helpful to me, or why the book will it be helpful to me? Isn't someone who doesn't play pickleball, or why will it be helpful to you readers who pick it up and decide that they, they want to hear what you have to say?

Well, I would say yes. It'll be helpful to you. It's really designed to be a book about relationships, and it happens to be about pickleball because we love pickleball.

I think, you know, listen, I want to praise that because I also think there is a lot to learn about relationships in surprising places. You know, like we've talked to, I talked to I've actually talked to a professional athlete. You may know. Her name is Christine Lily. She was on the she actually went to U and C and was on the 99 World Cup team. That won that and they've been all over the place. But what can Athletics teach us about relationships? What can the art of magic teach us about relationships? So what can nerds teach us about relationship? I mean, I think there's surprising lessons everywhere. So I'm, I love actually that you're like, okay, what does pickleball teach us about relationships or what is. So I'm I'm ready. Load me up. Tell me what it tell me what is the takeaway here?

Well, I'll just talk about my experience with my husband.

And they both play. Your partner's both play. So. You okay?

Got it. They do.

It started playing the game with our partners.

Yes. And it's one of the few games where you can play with your partner, even if you're at different levels. At least at the beginning. As you advance, it becomes a little more challenging. And that's where my story picks up. Okay. My husband is a very good athlete. He's got extreme hot, hand-eye coordination. He was a tennis champion at the pro club, actually, in Seattle. And he's a scratch golfer. And he and I started playing together. It was great. We have an amazing marriage. Anyone who knows us would would agree. But once the competition picked up, he turned into it. Yeah. It's like there's no other way to say it. He became someone I had never seen before.

My wife said that experience.

Yeah. So the first, the first chapter of our book is don't be a dick. First rule. Second rule. Okay. Don't be a dick. How to say it?

It's the first and second rule.

It's the first and second rule. Yes. So we were playing and and it got he, you know, the eye rolls and the huffing and the shit talking at me. And like, I'd never experienced this, and it really made us step back and say, hold on, can we play together? And he actually said, no, we can't. And it was devastating to me because A, we don't have that many things that we do together. I mean, I ski, he golfs, that kind of thing. So this was pretty upsetting to me. And as a solution, we found someone else to play, in tournaments together. I have a we call him our Throuple. I play with him in mixed doubles. He plays with him in doubles, men's doubles and then we went to Costa Rica and eventually came back together because the competition just wasn't that high.

And so he had no one to play with but me. So he had to figure it out. And in reading the book, him reading the book, he really recognized the impact that he had on other people. Me being that person most specifically, and it's really caused him to change and have more fun and be more light. He's very intense. He's an engineer. He's very analytical. But in order to play together and have a good relationship on the court, it was really important that he lighten up on me. You know, take his, take his instruction or feedback seriously and and try to get better because I want to get better. So that's how it's really helped us.

Yeah. Does it is it a, Listen, I, I actually love and hate at the same time that I'm a complete newbie to this concept or this sport. Is it a sport that you play exclusively as doubles, or do you can you play pickleball like one on one or do you play?

We can play one on one. You can play singles. You can play, but most people play doubles and and to in the fun, in a fun way. It's all. It's all about doubles.

Yeah, yeah, it's the heart of it is a people get together and they play next to their partner or their friend or whatever. And yeah, they're playing with cheering people.

You know. And you you mentioned Zach about playfulness. I totally think he's read a book on the power of play. Yeah. I'm big as a mental health occupational therapist we love. It's important for us to bring play. And I worked for 20 years and and dual diagnosis, mental health and substance use disorder. And I would say bringing play into like the healing process is so important because healing is has a lot of gravity to it. There's a lot of weight to it. So I love any where I can bring in work to bring in playfulness and in my own life. That was one thing for me. That was such a draw to the game and to pickleball is the playfulness of pickle. I mean, it's called pickleball. Even the name, like, yeah, yeah, you know, and so why is it called pickleball?

Do we know?

Yeah we do. We have actually have the, the one of the creators of pickleball, his son wrote our forward. Okay. But it's, it from the, like the idea of a pickle boat. The is not the name for the dog, which came later. Pickles. But it's actually like the all the in the rowing crew. All the other people who don't make the boat a about beer in the pickle boat. And it's. And that was like how she talked about the game was like kind of this mishmash of people. And like Terry said, barefoot or in Flip-Flops with a cocktail in her hand. And that's how it became named pickleball. I love that you.

Can read all about it, Zach. When the book comes.

I'm going to yeah, I'm going to. Well, here's the thing. I think, I noticed that the book won an award or something. Right? It's like a top pickleball gift, which is cool. And I have a friend that I'm going to give it to you. I know exactly who is going to get it for me because he's obsessed with pickleball. But I do think, like, is there something for me, the newbie? And it might just be that I learn how this sport, because my wife, her name is Rebecca. We're different types of athletes, and we do enjoy playing tennis together, but we when we show up at the tennis court, we have to have an agreement that I am going to play to her level.

I'm going to I'm not going to try and play my kind of tennis because I will beat her. 6060600 so we have to figure out how we're going to have fun. But the everything I hear about pickleball is that you can kind of show up at all kinds of degrees, and as long as the agreement is there, there is a possibility that we can all thrive in this, in this context, which.

Totally.

You know.

And and as a, as a as long.

As, I guess, as long as you're not a dick.

Well, and that's part of our goals there is you work with couples on agreements, right. And being clear in your communication and having boundaries and these things literally like Terry mentioned, like it's a relationship book that happens to take place on a pickleball court. And the reason that we decided to write this book is because of our own struggles with our love partners on the court, which were nine stories very similar to Terry's, like it was great at the beginning.

Then as we got better, the hip fell apart and I was like, come on, like I'm a therapist. Like, how do we apply these strategies to the court? And we were seeing I was seeing dear friends arguing in the court, you can't go to a tournament and not see people arguing in the court when if you're playing against them, you're kind of excited because you know you're about to win the next few points when they when couples are in distress with each other. But it was just something like we had such a heart for the game, and we were like, we want to help ourselves and our and our friends and our community and just people at large, because, you know, it's the fastest growing sport in the United States multiple years in a row. It's now turning into a very worldwide sport. Yeah, it's becoming NCAA plays for high school sport. I mean, it's a really.

They want to take it on at the NCAA level.

Yeah. They're the colleges to start bringing it on. Let's talk about the Olympics. Not this next one but the one after that. So it's just such a growing sport. And so we wanted to, you know, in the fastest like last year, the fastest growing segment was in their 50s. This year, the fastest growing segment is late 20s early 30s. So the the you know, we're seeing the dynamics of the sport changed so much. So couples are flocking to the courts and they want to play together. And I mean I mean really the intention was pretty self-serving at the beginning. I was like, we need I need to get along better with my boyfriend on the court. Terry wanted to get along better with her partner on that, with her husband on the court.

And so we say like to love more and win more points. So there's there's relationships in the book. There's also strategy tips in the book. And just like anything in life, if we apply these strategies, you know, better communication, understanding how someone gives and receives love, you know, setting intentions, goal setting boundaries, all those same things apply to the pickleball court. And we say in the book, it's like a little microcosm of your relationship because it's a very small space.

Yeah, yeah. Do you did you do either of you have stories of like, things that you learned, say, while writing the book, like, how did you work stuff out with each other or your partners or your own theories? Like, what have been some surprising takeaways for you as you think about, your own process of, you know, learning through this, through the book process.

So the one so, so where I have been most impressed and most, educated was in how we dealt with conflict. We're very different styles, you.

Two or you and stormy.

And I. Yeah. Stormy and I as coauthors. Yeah. But but in relationship together.

Yeah.

We have very different styles. We're very different perspectives. And to be able to have an issue surface deal with this.

No, I think she froze up.

She did freeze.

It's been happening because she and I meet a lot. Oh, she dropped so you back on and finished that method. But she did she drop with me the other day to. I don't know what's going on on the internet. Probably the freeze that Texas has, right? No, I agree with what Terry was saying, that, you know, there was relationship issues, challenges that arose. But for her and I to navigate and it's really, sweet and tender for me that our relationship is deepened, become more intimate and in a more communicative, more transparent through this process. And then I think, you know, as far as for my long term partner, my I mean, I don't even know, 7 or 8 years I've been with my boyfriend.

And, you know, they call themselves my boyfriend. And her and Terry's husband call themselves the villains in the book, but that is not the case. By the way, the rule of don't be a dick is a genderless term, because I can be just as much of a dick as.

There you go.

But it was really, kind of a funny thing when they were like, you know, you, how do you people are like, did you read the book? And my boyfriend's always like, I am the book box, you know? So but to your question specifically, it was such a beautiful process. I was healing from a I had a total hip replacement. So I was off the court off of exercise, a seven day a week workout person. So that was very psychologically, more than the pain and physicality. The psychological journey of healing from a hip replacement. I was off the court for four months, so I was like, I need something to do to keep my mind busy. We had seen the struggle in our own relationships, in friends, on the internet, even up to the pro levels.

And so we just, I, you know, we're like, let's write this book. It gives me in my mind something to do. And that's kind of partly why we cranked it out so quickly. And also wanted to be the first book to the market about relationships. Well, yeah. But you know, specifically things that Terry brought to the book, like some of her ideas, we both our ideas collectively and collaboratively. I was like, well, let me try this. And so we started applying the strategies. So for example, there's a, there's a part of the, there's a strategy about using safe words. Right. I was like comes from the sexuality space to the pickleball court.

Like I'm a fan. Go ahead.

Yeah. So using safe for us. Right. Having that communication. My is mine is pineapple. So when I'm on the court.

I want to know something. Can I just, you know how many people use pineapple as their word? Like it is absurd. Like I hear it, it's almost like, Anyway, I think that's so cool. There's something in the universe, though, about pineapple being a safe word for people.

So Terry Rogers, she'll tell it's in the book is pumpernickel. So. Okay, you must have, like, something with the letter P. But what that means is like, I, we I just did it the other day. We're back in the court. You know, I wanted to go out, just have fun and be playful. I'm just getting back in the core. I'm healing still for my my hip replacement. My boyfriend was. It was very intense, wanting to, like, crush all the balls and crush all the planets. And and I looked at my I go pineapple. Meaning I am no longer open to feedback. I don't want any eye rolls. I just want to play. And he goes, all right, pineapple.

And it changes the whole dynamic. So you know, really and for me, it was such a delightful process to really try these strategies. First the two of us are to couple shifts, then share them with friends and, you know, and then we even, like I said, to test readers who were pickleball players, like, hey, try this strategy, see what you think. And so, again, that kind of extrapolation from the pickleball court to life and from life to the pickleball court, and you know, when your idea of a play like we don't, nothing exists in a vacuum, right? So they people and they said, no, leave work, leave home at home and don't bring it into work. It's like, that's not how the human psyche, soul and heart works, right?

So yeah, we bring stuff on the pickleball court, we take stuff off the pickleball court, and we wanted to help couples navigate it, you know, in a great way. And so for you, if you're just thinking about playing, which totally encourage you to do it, it will be you will thank us. We have to look back at this like a year from now. And you could say.

Yeah, you know, we I belong to this swimming tennis club here in town. And, there has been a lot of resistance to even allowing the courts to be used for pickleball because there's this fear that it will sort of take over, like culturally, it will sort of take over the ceiling.

Like, I mean, you know, you joked about that, like the animosity or the sidedness of tennis and pickleball, but, I mean, there's a lot of overlap, too, and a lot of pro tennis players are coming over. And yeah, a lot of the top pickleball players were pro tennis players, or, you know, NCAA tennis players, collegiate athletes. And so, I think, you know, there is it's very different. Like you can I mean, I have lots of people I play with who play ball still. I just don't because of a shoulder injury. I don't play tennis anymore. Yeah. But and honestly, in full transparency, when my boyfriend brought it up two years ago, he's like, hey, come, like, come try pickleball with me.

I literally said, I'm too young. I used to be a tennis player. I'm too fit. I'm not playing the sport. I was so Gen Z and I went and play. This is the true story. We went and played here in Utah, and this guy who must have been late 70s if not 80s, two knee braces, two elbow braces, was playing on the other side with another guy at the rec center and was so gracious because I had never played, you know, the scoring. He pickled us, meaning 11 zero. He won 11 zero. He and his partner. And I was like, what is this sport like? Because we, we collectively didn't match up to his age, the two of us together. And it was and he was just so kind and so funny and, and so that was the start. I mean, I was very, like, curious about it.

And then like, and then what? And then relationally, what came up for my partner and I was really, I mean, really and amazed. I mean, I, we say that it's it's your community. It's your communication workshop. It is very much a relationship workshop on the pickleball court. If you are going to play with your love partner. And similar to what Terry shared, we talked about not playing together and that really like broke my heart because he's my one of my favorite people in the world. He's, you know, he's he's a great athlete. I'm a good athlete. We wanted to play together. And so we found a way to navigate our way back. And we call it in the book of pickleball divorce. Like, we don't want couples to have to choose a pickleball divorce unless they're doing so thoughtfully.

High. Terry. Terry, how are you doing? We thought maybe you had an ice storm hit your house or something.

I shared with them, Terry, about the safe words and how that was, like, interesting for me and like to apply some of those strategies from the book.

I love safe words.

Let me see if I can guess what.

You won't guess I will.

It's pumpernickel I already know, the, the selling stormy that it is absurd. It's absolutely mind blowing. How many people have pineapple as their as their safe word? It's so common in my world. In my business. I don't know why people gravitate to that, but it's. There's something in the universe that says you're aligned to the the chakra of safe cooperation or collaboration. So, I've not heard pumpernickel before, but I think, I think it's I'm, I'm a huge fan of safe words. Whether that's in you said it's from the sexuality space, but I think whether it's in the play space or the conflict space like just being able to signal to one another that now is not the time to or rather, signal to one another that if we keep doing this, it's going to be harmful.

Yes. You know, that's that's how I mean, again, if you think about S&M or bondage or whatever, it's if you don't use the word when you're kind of uncomfortable, you use the word when if we keep doing this, there's going to be psychological or physical, physical or sexual damage. Yeah. That I think you ought to bring that concept into, day to day communication. Maybe it's maybe it's on the court. So I love that concept that you've introduced. Do you have other, sort of practical things that, that couples can take away or it should take away from, as you discovered when you're writing the book?

Well, we call those moments that you just described kitchen knife moments.

I love that. I remember seeing that in your summary.

And the writing.

About Kitchen.

Knife. Yeah. The reason we call them kitchen knife moments. There's lots of reasons, but one of the main reasons is in on the pickleball court. Again, in a whimsical way, the part that's closest to the net is called the kitchen. Okay. And and it's a non volley zone unless the ball bounces. And am I saying those things right.

Story. Yeah. I think it's a very well set.

And so the point is that many people find it challenging to not go in the kitchen and end up being, you know, it's it becomes a fault. But but the point of our situation is I have a friend who I play pickleball with, and she she said to me one day, I almost had a kitchen knife moment with my husband. And she met actually in the kitchen with a knife. And I was like, oh my God, that is a pickleball term for the ages. So kitchen knife moments are those times when you want to, when you have the desire to stab your partner and you will.

Do that standing there with a knife in your hand and you're like, what am I going to.

Do with the ball paddle?

But any, any object that could, you know, do harm? We don't do harm, we don't encourage harm. But, those are how we recognize those moments.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, and that's something that we, you know, again, this is playfulness is levity to it. We always say we say multiple different ways in the book. Like it's pickleball. Like let's keep it in perspective. Right? It's it's about playfulness and connection. So let's let's move in that direction. So you know some tangibles like you guys. So safe words when you talk about just basic communication, unhealthy communication healthy communications. We talk about feedback how to give and receive the two way street. That feedback is we talk about intention setting and being clear with your intentions with your partner.

And and to add to that part. So there's a part about being being intent on being intentional or versus being intention. You're going to be one or the other. So which one do you want to be.

Speaking my language right now I love messing around with words.

And we have love languages.

Yeah. Yeah. Well love languages, pickleball, emotional intelligence, which, by the way, spoiler alert, your emotional intelligence matters more than your IQ.

You have love languages that are unique to pickleball. What would be an example?

We made them unique to pickleball. We took the standard five love languages that we translated into pickleball talk. So for example, and this was news to me because I'm not a I don't buy into the love languages thing until now. But, my love language is appreciation, which knowing me, I never would have guessed that. But there we have it. And so when Raj and I are on the court together, Raj, my husband and he's, you know, not being supportive or being critical, that has more impact on me than I realized it did. And now he understands that. And it's not like he does it perfectly. Every every day is a practice. But for him to encourage me or to say good shot or to, you know, give me good feedback or reinforcement makes a huge difference for me. So it's a standard love language, but we translate it into how it works on the pickleball court. Stormi's is touch right?

Physical touch. My partner's his physical touch. So for us, paddle boops, you know, like a consensual pat on the bottom with the paddle. High fives. I had a sweaty hug. I mean, it's like those are things that matter to us. A high five, you know? And and it's, you know, to. I'm a big fan of the love languages means I'm with my couples a lot when I, when I do sex and intimacy coaching. And so we were like, you know, make sure, you know, you're, you're leveling to your partner's level language. Here's ways to apply it to the pickleball court.

I love that. I think that's so clever. I wanted to Terry, while you before you got cut off, you were about to tell me about, sort of how conflict, like what you've learned about conflict, particularly between you and stormy. And I love when this happens, because sometimes I'll have a couple and, you know, he'll be 20 minutes late to the appointment for some reason, and she'll come in and she'll tell me about the fight that they just had, and she'll and she'll go into real detail. And then when he comes in, I'll go, hey, you know, welcome. Hey, just for a second and I might say stormy, I don't want to say anything at all till you tell me about the fight that you just had. And they tell me about it. He'll tell me about it then, or the partner will tell me, and it'll be unrecognizable.

Like they will have had two totally different arguments. And so part of it is appreciating that there's this filter that we have that sometimes is just in outer space relative to our to our partner. Or that to say, I got to hear a little bit from stormy about what, how she understands the tension that the two of you may have navigated together. I'd love to hear you talk about it without knowing what stormy said.

I feel like we're on a game show.

I know, right? It's the newlywed.

Jeff. Ethan earlier, right. Did I? We do have a section of that in the book, but yeah, the newlywed, Yeah. Okay. So where I left off was people know me. They know I'm direct. She know I was I am direct. We we all agree on my communication stuff. We were never in a situation for me to understand or recognize her level of relentlessness until we were writing the book. And relentlessness is a strength in all in. Okay. In many in all cases, yeah. Until it's not, it's a challenge as well. Yeah. And so we really had to navigate because I'm a pretty high energy, high pace person. But I would say stormy, well, the best word I can use was was willing and able to bulldoze some of that, which is unusual for me because, yeah, I can be a pretty big bulldozer myself. But, so we we had to navigate the boundary of me saying, I heard you. I got it. Stop.

And we were able to in, in what I would call nothing less than grace. I was so impressed by her level of hearing me and acknowledging me and changing how she approached me so that we could continue on our journey. Because like you said, you know, our our pace was fast, but we were able to come out the other side in a much higher vibration and a much higher level of energy of of path forward than I. I mean, I couldn't believe it really, because it's pretty rare. I think that two people can do that. Whether you're married or in friendship and friendship, you almost never have that opportunity, right? Because the stakes are never that high. Or not usually. But in this case, it was. It was really something to be able to say. We navigated this and produced something even greater than we were before.

Yeah. Oh man, that's so important. Like, I think, I always joke around that, that what's good, like, what's the best possible outcome of conflict. Do you have any idea.

What I just said?

Yeah. Let's make up sex. Right. And it doesn't have to be made up.

Make up sets. Yeah, but when you have next city together.

Well, you have though. I mean, because I don't think it means intercourse. It can be. It means we have a great conversation or we actually we thrive in the next match and we're better like it's something that called in something like intimacy. So make up sex gets a laugh when I'm public speaking and everybody's like, yeah, yeah, that's great. But it really is this idea that we are closer now because we navigated something challenging. Yeah. And yeah, that it sounds like exactly what you're describing, which is. Yeah. Which I think is really cool. And is one of you better at pickleball than the other one?

No, we're actually race. We play women's together, we play women's doubles together. And then that's a lot, because I think we're both very choosy. Yeah. And there is like the. I like two women that I would play with and Terry's one of them. So I as far as level, we're very similar. Our partners are similar in level. And it's really fun. Like, I mean, when Terry and her husband are playing my boyfriend and I, it's like 5050, like they would half the time. We went half the time. And it's so fun. It's like, that was a favorite couple to play for sure.

I love that because I think, again, you know, sometimes being in competition with somebody you can care most about winning and losing or you can care most about playing. And this is why I go back to this idea that play is so important. Like it's really like, do we? Yeah, I imagine that if one of you is better or if as a couples, one of you are better and there was just this kind of not 5050 is more like 100%, that would become less fun. Unless you had this commitment that you're describing, which is, are we committed to just, becoming better people, raising our EQ, raising our ability to be in the same space and, use that space for something like connection? Oh, you.

Totally. Yeah. And, you know, and mentioned earlier about he can play with your significant other a different levels until so like it's challenging. Right. So just this morning I got a text from a gentleman in my pickleball group, at the club here in Utah. And he was like, hey, I've got he has a standing Friday night date night with him and his wife. He is a very good pickleball player. She is a more beginner pickleball player. He plays probably six days a week, but on Friday night, it's a it's his date night thing. He invites couples, you know. And so yeah, he invited my boyfriend and he's like, just to let you know, the play is not like you know it way low is probably three o level.

And I said to my partner I was like I want to go like. And he was like, well, it's not going to be good, you know, good play. And I was like, I know. But it's community building and I would love to meet these couples. So we're going to go, you know. And so he's like, well we're playing earlier in the for hos. And then I said great. Well he can play twice. But the point being like there's really you. We're just you just have to go in with that mindset that you're not going in to like, you know, improve your game. You're going into like improve your relationship and build community.

I love that.

And I would add to that what we've we've met other couples who organized games with other couples, and they call it couples therapy, which is sort of ironic, but based on our experience. But it's it's something that is just fun to get together with other people, other couples, whatever, and just play like it's just fun.

Yeah.

And you bring 8 to 10 calories a minute, which is almost twice of what you burn in tennis. Just flat.

All right.

All right. So I did not believe that at I like I had a research it and checked my Apple Watch on it. But it is because it's so much small. You're hitting so many more balls and so that it just feels more more Twitch IRAs. Yep.

Right. Well, I think I think our episode will come out right around Valentine's Day. So if I'm looking for a way to connect with my partner around Valentine's Day, sounds like, like take up a new hobby, take up a new sport together, and, and grab your book and use it to help me both get better at it. Sounds like I could actually get better at pickleball.

Oh for sure.

Yeah, but also get better at just, leveraging this, non relationship thing to become better at relationships, which is again, it's a huge passion of mine. So I'm really glad that you wrote the book, and that we got to talk about it today.

I say, grab your wife, grab your paddle. An attorney told me not to say that, but grab your wife, grab your paddle and grab the book and go play.

Yeah. All right. Cool. How do we learn more? I mean, I guess we can buy sort of wherever books are sold. But if people want to learn more about you guys, what is the best direction to send them? Where should I send them?

So you can get the book on Amazon? In a pickle how to master love in Pickleball and not kill Each Other. It's on Amazon. And then our website is Love and Pickleball dot net. Ann Arbor on Instagram at love underscore and underscore pickleball. And we do relationship tips and pickleball tips on on their Instagram.

I well I love it. Well, thanks so much for joining me today. Thanks for being among my first sort of new era interviews here on marriage therapy radio. And, I'm looking forward to, I think, the book I think the book arrives in my mailbox today, and I'm definitely going gonna, check it out. And then, I can already think of 3 or 4 people right now that I want to put it in their hands because, it feels like a great gift and a great opportunity for them to take something they already love to get better at something else that they already love.

So to win one, one.

Yeah. I appreciate you both. Thanks so much.

Thank you.

Hey, everybody. Welcome and thank you for listening to this episode of Marriage Therapy video. My name is Zach Riddle, and I have decided to use my standard marriage therapy video. Introduction. Now that we. Even though we are officially in the post Laura era, this is my first episode officially. Sort of in the new landscape. I hope that you got a chance to listen to the interviews that we just did called. So I married a relationship expert. I did my solo episode in January, and now I'm off, interviewing, and now I'm, into some new stuff, and I'm excited about it. I have an interview today that I'm excited to share, and I want to tell you about some stuff that's coming up. But first, I want to take a special minute to thank a couple of people.

Now, here comes John to first, I want to take a moment to thank a couple people. First, Vicky dat Vicky, thank you for your very kind email. I'm, glad to have your support and to know that you and others are behind me. And it's not so much that I'm looking for, like, kudos, but I do want to continue to bite. But I do want to believe that marriage therapy radio is continuing to provide value, in this new era. And it's I'm just glad to have your support and your wind at my back. I also. Know. I also want to give a shout out to Johanna Flores. Johanna, thank you for becoming a Patreon member.

Thank you for becoming a Patreon member. You may have noticed that we are reading fewer and fewer ads on the podcast. The reality of that situation is that advertising, on podcasts is just becoming a thinner and thinner prospect. And in order for us to in order for me to continue, bringing merch separately week over week, I do need the support of Patreon members like Johanna and others. If you have not become a Patreon supporter, please consider doing that. It's pretty simple. You just go over to Patreon.com slash marriage therapy radio, join one of our tiers. You can give $3. You can get $3 a month. You can give $10 month. You can give $100 a month if you want to. I am committed to providing behind the scenes content over there.

There's another, there's an interview that we're doing next week. There's an interview that comes out next week that, I think you're going to love. And then there's a pretty good portion of that that I'm going to put just behind the Patreon wall. For folks who are interested in learning more, I've got a couple of videos coming out, just talking a little bit about what it's like to be me on a day to day basis in my practice and in my life.

And, there will be. And I'll be sharing, I'll be sharing additional sort of behind the scenes content from there, including client stories and specifically answering listener questions. I've got an email box right now full of about 3 or 4 questions that I want to answer, and I'm going to do that over at Patreon. So the best way to support Mares Therapy Radio and to keep us on the air is to, become a monthly member is to become a member with a monthly gift. Just think of it as buy me a cup of coffee or lunch or or dinner. Not interested in getting rich. But I am interested in, knowing and feeling your support. So please, if you haven't done that, take a minute again to roll over to Patreon.com Patreon.com slash mare support radio. You can also go to Mare Strawberry Radio.com and find a link there.

And, I will be grateful for you and I'll call you out on the podcast for, being a friend of mine, for being a friend and a supporter and a member. I think I'm gonna start calling you guys members, listeners, Larry. Okay. Today I am talking to Doctor Stormy Hill and Terry Cinnamon, who wrote a book called In a Pickle How to Master Love and Pickleball and Not Kill Each Other. It is, true. It was a really fun topic for me to explore, primarily because I've never played pickleball before. I never even thought about primarily because I've never played pickleball before. And, talking to Stormy and Terry about their experience, it was really fun. I've gotten to meet Terry since then. I went to her, book signing and was able to meet a bunch of pickleball enthusiasts who were excited about the first and second rule of pickleball.

Who who were able to learn about the first and second rule of pickleball, who were able to learn about the first and second rule of pickleball, which I will not share here, because, you know, spoiler alert and, but if it's your thing, if you're playing pickleball and you are trying to do that alongside your partner there, there's a lot of cool. It's a lot of good advice in here, including something about what they call kitchen knife moments. That was intriguing to me. And, I've certainly had a few of those on my own. Again, even though I've never played pickleball. I guess there's a thing called the kitchen, but I have an actual kitchen, and I've had actual kitchen knife moments in my actual kitchen.

But, I think you'll get a kick out of Stormy and Terry. They are good friends. They're smart ladies. They're both in relationships with, other, they're both in relationships with men that they play pickleball with. And this is where they've gathered a lot of their wit and wisdom. Yeah. Which is where they collected a lot of their wit and wisdom. I think you will. So if you know a couple who is, into pickleball, I recommend this book. It's a great gift. And if you're just interested in learning how, the sport can teach you something about relationships, I think you'll enjoy hearing from them. This is a very cool conversation. Stick around. Okay, so that was that. And then here comes the outro.

All right. Hope you got a kick out of Terry Cinnamon and Doctor Stormy Hill. I sure enjoyed getting to know them. And, they have inspired me. They have inspired me to consider thinking about possibly, maybe playing pickleball at sometime in the future. Again, if you are looking for, some advice on how to master love and pickleball and not kill each other, check out their book in a pickle. It's also a great gift for friends or family you may know who are, followers or players of the sport, especially if they're a couple. And here's just one last reminder simply to join our Patreon community again. You can just go to Marriage Therapy Radio.com, check out the. They click on the link there. I very much will appreciate your patronage and it will help me know that, I'm continuing to bring value to you in ways that are important and help you change your relationships.

I am also very excited about a couple of episodes that are coming up. Next week in particular, you are going to get to be a fly on the wall during boat night. If you've heard about us talking about Boat Night on the podcast, it's when I get together with a couple of my friends and we talk about our wives and girlfriends and, it, we, we recorded that episode last week, and I'm really intrigued, to hear what you think about it. So check it out. For now, I want to wish you the best, and I will. Look, I wish you the best. And I'll thank you for making your relationship better today. Yeah. And I thank you for all the time and attention you put into making your relationship better today than it was yesterday. I did hope you can make that work.

And, I leave for Cabo on Saturday. I'll do another intro for the boat night episode before then, and then I'll be back and we'll have the couples starting to line up. If you want to get to work on those couple interviews so that we can do that thing that I said, where I have a little bit of a prolonged interview with a teaser for what's ahead. I would love to look at the show notes or the summary that gets generated before I record the episode. Before I record the intro trend is to bring a little bit of value ahead of the actual recording, in part so that I can, you know, solidify my voice and my intention. But also, make sure people feel included and recognize, particularly if they ask a question or become members of the Patreon. Okay. Thanks so much.

Bye bye.