Drs. Harville Hendrix Ph.D. and Helen LaKelly Hunt Ph.D.

First of all, to welcome you. And thank you for coming on. Horrible Hendricks. And, sorry, Helen, the Kelly Hunt. Tell me your best story about people thinking you're Helen Hunt. Do you have one?

Well, I'm grateful that my father said called me a well, first. I never used the name, my middle name until the actress was so famous. And my father, he and his and my mom, they had two best friends, Ray Ryan and Helen Kelly Ryan. And, And they wanted me to be named, they named my older brother Ray hunt, and I'm Helen Kelly Hunt. And dad said, I want her to have my initials. Let's call her luck. Kelly. So I'm unique and, and so that. Oh, and so I kept disappointing people. I would make a reservation. Helen Hunt for decades, I did. I never used a middle name until everyone was disappointed when I showed up and I decided, oh, man, l on the Kelly Hunt.

Yeah. And I also remember going through airports. People. People would say, you know, are you the, and,

Helen Hunt has a ticket on our flight. And,

So I started putting North Kelly on it again to end that conversation. It's almost like Jimi Hendrix, my last name, and Riggs, people that, you know, Hendrix and I finally said, yeah, we are half brothers. And, That ends that conversation. So it's, it's a hard sell.

Yeah.

It's a hard sell. Right.

Well, tell me where you guys. Where are you guys at this morning? Where where where are we visiting you from?

We are at our home in Dallas, Texas.

Oh, right. I, I didn't realize you guys were in Dallas. My daughter is at SMU, so I'll have her come over for dinner sometime. Yeah.

Oh, good. Good. Well, you come to visit her and come over for dinner yourself, or we'll go out to dinner on.

Maybe we.

Out. He will take you up.

I'm, by the way, and I met in Dallas. I was born here. Harvard was teaching at a theology school here.

I was teaching at this.

And, I, I heard him giving lectures on stages of relationship, and I thought, well, he had been divorced. I had been divorced. And, and I thought, this is brilliant. And I proposed to him and I said, horrible. People are following, following, following you around with, they want to know more about stages of relationship. And also a therapist wanted to help couples more precisely in their therapy practice, and he wanted a book written on his work. So I said, if you marry me, let's get an ET. Move to New York, get an agent and get a good publishing company that's national and global, which we did nice.

Yeah. So the rest is history.

30 years in New York. And recently he, said, Helen, let's move back to Dallas and let's get this a dialog institute for everybody. So that's what we're doing.

Okay. Well, I'm going to jump in because I now I have a question. You're talking about the history of your relationship. And I, for my own research on the two of you, understand that it hasn't always been rainbows and butterflies. You've had your own sort of intimate struggles. And I'm wondering how you overcame those struggles. What what was it that you utilized in order to be able to get you on track?

Okay.

So so I've talked a lot, but let me just answer this one question and I can talk the rest. Yeah. So Laura, I think it is such a blessing that two times we were thinking about divorce and one time we had our divorce papers and but because we were in our weekend workshops, we tell people about that early on. So the couple who signs up, who's really frustrated with their partner, did they get the right one? A parallel marriage where they just don't talk because it doesn't work to talk well, or the, hot marriage for the yellow locks. Or maybe they're close to divorce. When we teach people how to do dialog, we don't want them to think, oh, it's easy for Helen and Harvard to do it, but my spouse will never do it. We had, you know, so we give people hope when we tell the story about, we consider divorce two times, you know.

So when a piece of the story that I want to add to that is what did we do to make it, past, you know, cross the bridge? So we were, we actually, we moved from New York City to New Jersey to lived in ten of fly with the, there were legal and tax implications and all of that that were better in new Jersey than in New York. So we moved there to divorce. And so we weren't rushing out, but we were ready to go. And we were, deciding that during the waiting period of getting all the papers, we I mean, I'd found an apartment, we had a lawyer and all that, but we had a date essentially once a week on Thursdays. And so.

And that was to stay connected as we were raising six kids, you.

Know.

And, you know, just to make sure, even though we were divorced, you know, how are the kids doing a just a, a check in for like an hour.

So usually we would go into the city and go to lunch and to a bookstore. And this time we decided and then the bookstore would always go to to the sessions. Very interesting in my, you know, primarily couples therapy. Go and see if I see if I book were still face out on the show, check on our own stuff.

And we had done that for, for years, go to bookstores and Harvard would be focused totally on psychology and other intellectual books. And I would sort of look at other things.

But then I like the last few in history and so forth. So this time, Helen proposed that we do something strange, which was go to the, astrology section.

No, no, no, I said, let's go to the bookstore, but let's look at other sections. Maybe there would be something that would be interesting for us because we'd never been, science fiction, you know, I don't know, just books on whatever. Yeah. And we and so we there was an astrologer, a cluster of astrology books.

Yeah. So we looked at that shelf and there was astrology for relationships. We thought, Oh, that was, so that's interesting. And what actually, this book, we can't actually haven't been able to find the book we actually found, but one on relationship. And to make this story short, it offered you you find your your sign and your partner's sign. And this book was really big. I probably had 1000 pages in it and you could find an essay book.

This is a small paperback book. It was the same book as this one. It was a hardback.

Okay. Yeah, but you had this, essay on what would a, do? I forget what I am, but anyway, September and February.

Oh, wait wait wait wait. It has all the astrological signs. Aries, Taurus, Gemini. Cancer. One of you is recommending remembering yours or recognizing yours. Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn and Aquarius and Pisces. Okay, so and.

So weird.

For.

Virgo and Aquarius.

Was Virgo, we harvest was Virgo, and we opened up Virgo and read what his sign was just. I mean, we didn't expect to learn very much because I already knew, right? Aquarians were the artful ones. But then in the book.

I had this essay that if these two are married, what kind of relationship they will have? And it was the most negative description you can imagine, but it really mirrored our relationship and that we were unrelenting leads, unrelenting scrutiny of each.

Other.

Negatively.

So know if a Virgo marries an Aquarian, they are the least likely to be able to maintain their marriage because of the, quote, unreal, intense scrutiny they give each other.

So out of that wow to to cut this long story shorter and why and why we're bringing it up out of that, it was sort of a mirror back about how negative we were toward each other. And so we decided we would do an experiment, which was to, go to a zero negativity, place, just remove negativity. And so and so we decided that we'd have to monitor ourselves. So Helen suggested we go to drugstore, get a calendar, and each day, mark on the calendar, how we were doing, and X for a bad day and a check for a good day. And it took us, a month to get a check on any day.

Wow.

So that was really a statement about how saturated we were with negativity toward each other. And then we but we had gotten yeah, this was interesting. And we kept then putting off the divorce. And it was about three months before we had, you know, maybe four or 5 or 6 check mark so we could see we're making progress. So about three months later we had.

Okay, wait wait wait wait, can I just don't so what I realized, well, when we married, I was determined to. If horrible needs any improvement, I would help. Improvement program. So, first. First, his desk was messy and his bookshelves were messy, so I wanted to organize his books and his closet. Not quite the right clothes and ta da da da da. I was driving that crazy. I was driving horrible, crazy. And so I thought, okay, Helen, what do I need to do? Shut up and ask Carvel questions about him? And when I started and I so I had read a brain brain book of, a very notable brain science scientists that you all, a therapist who has studied the brain, you all probably have heard of Dan Siegel and, yeah, this book, he said the lower the lower brain, avoid, the adrenaline and cortisol, you know, monologue.

And I maybe apply that to monologue and you're, you're frustrated with someone, but, use the neocortex. And Harvard, I applied that to the dialog skills. You have to choose to say, horrible. I heard you say 15 minutes ago. Helen can't be late to be on the call and get be sure you're ready. Is that right? Is that what I heard you say? Okay, so when I dialog, I'm in the upper part of my brain. And he said, the healthiest part of the brain, as you know, probably there's a left brain strength, an architect, a strategist on how to teach dialog and a right brain, a more of an artist or, a, you know, an equally smart.

But, it's a different kind of wisdom. The left brain, doctor Who, if you have a heart attack, they'll fix it. So you don't want them to be fuzzy and horrible is not fuzzy about anything. And then I'm the the music person or the art. And then he said between the two, the smallest part, but the most important, the brain is the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. And, it's where you move beyond predication, that is, you don't have to talk. I mean, you should not talk with one predication. And I took that to be you wonder. So what I but one of the things change our marriage is me asking horrible questions and wondering about him. It's dopamine. Acetylcholine, norepinephrine, serotonin. And and you're a healthier person. When when you shut up and ask the other person. Well, y'all are asking questions for the next hour. So good for you.

So just to.

Finish this.

Story again, we kept working on that. And finally we realized that we could probably make it. So we started planning for a recommitment. So and 1999, on New Year's Day, New Year's Eve, New Year's Eve, we went to Riverside Church in New York City, where we got re, remarried, a new marriage. And then we had a big celebration that night on the, a spot on the Hudson Hudson River. And we stayed there till midnight. And when the fire firecrackers started going, we all went to the we were at a we were at a place you could look over the Hudson River.

Bank.

And and see the, the fireworks. So we said all of New York is celebrating our recommitment. So that was no, no, 20 about 23 years.

But 23 years ago.

So.

And you did it just in case. Just in case the way to think the Y2K thing happened and everything shut down. You wanted to make sure you got that out of the way before the world. The world is.

Yeah. And I think the message to a couple, if you were romantically attracted to someone and, wanted to marry them and they wanted to marry you at one time, no matter what is going on in your marriage, it can be recovered. The original feelings know, but to recover, learn specific things.

Yeah, well, we just say specifically, you have to make a sacrifice. And the sacrifice is your commitment to being negative. That negativity is a toxin that actually kills. We've done research on that now, and there are there's no research or negativity that gives it any positive value. Doesn't mean you can't deal with difficult issue when you go zero negative, but it means you give up being negative about the issues that are challenging. So they move from being negatives to challenges that you deal with using the technology of dialog.

And, and.

So that's that's probably enough that our, our, our history.

And and all of that stuff. One more with one more comment, Zach and Laura, to me, one of the most important things we teach a couple. This is part of the zero negativity process. Convert a frustration into a request. If you're a frustrated Amen partner, make an appointment. And say could I have an appointment to talk to you about something, that I was frustrated about? And I'd like to do it at a time when you're free and they'll give you a tie, and you sit down, and then you send and then and then say, what I was frustrated about was blah, blah, blah. What I wish would have happened is lady dah dah or whatever, where the person listening goes, oh. Yeah, I think I could do that, you know, and they can stretch into, oh lot.

And so, yeah. Oh, and the last thing is we said, for zero negativity, do not bring up any problems after 6:00. If you have a problem and you want to talk problem your partner about a problem making a appointment for a the next day when they're free. Or maybe their partner is busy that whole day the next day, but not after 6:00.

It is that just because you're assuming that folks are tired that they will be short fuze? They'll they won't have their listening years on. Empathy will be out the window. Or are you thinking if you have a frustration, maybe you need the downtime and go to bed and refresh and come to that conversation in a better space?

Yeah, well, yeah, I wish you did that for sure. For us. You did a beautiful job just for multiple reasons. It's not good for multiple reasons. Yeah. It's both both of those.

And it's also good training. Yeah. You don't have to go through immediate gratification. You know can delayed gratification. You know that's I've been taught all my life you can delay your gratification until it's appropriate and then as appropriate with both, as you were saying, not tired and not, coaching as you all we work and they eat well I'm I'm tired world and I'm tired of my own problems. I'm tired of Ellen's probably what I want to do something that's totally free from requiring energy.

And of course, the real issue is you. If you bring up a problem, close to going to bed, you don't even, you know, and you don't you don't handle it. Well, if you don't handle it well. Right? Yeah. And maybe you're not at your best. So make it before six ahead.

And what we have found is that the more we practice appropriate, constructive things like that, the less problems we have to bring up anyway. Like we plan evenings that are fun.

Oh sure.

And all the memories so fun begin to take the place of those memories that were negative and so the only negative memories when you create more positive memories. And I'm sure you all know that because you help couples, you know, we talk, we really spend a lot of time with couples. Create it just it the the simplest thing occurred to me one day we talked about a lot about, and those of us who grew up in psychodynamic psychology many, many years ago, really got focused on the inner world.

And what is subjectivity. And and as you know, psychotherapy spends all of its time helping people excavate the inner world. And. Yeah, and get to the unconscious dynamics behind all of your behavior. So, and I spent years as a psychodynamic psychotherapist, and I'm as I look back at it, there was it was minimal progress. The people were became very educated neurotics, but they didn't change their interactive behavior along with their their degree of their inside. It was not Freud was. All right. That insight leads to automatic behavior change. They did it. W can certainly have insight and know what and what you're doing, but any rate, it dawned on me one day that what Freud dealt well, what we dealt with all that was, was, excavating memories. And you actuate the madmen.

Those are the ones most people talk about. They get the good memories. If you can. So one day, don't tell me you know I'm responsible for the memories Helen has of me when she has a bad memory of me. I created that memory with my behavior. So I said, you know, I'm going to decide what I want Ellen to remember about me and then behave in such a way that when she sees me, that's the memory in the front of her mind, not the other memory. And so that was one of the most empowering thoughts I think I've ever had for my personal behavior is that, and not only for Helen, but I'm responsive for the memory of the waiter, as of me, in terms of what I'd do in a rest or what you have of me when what we do on this show and that that you have the power so that the inner world is made of memories.

That I'm responsible for the inner world of Helen about me. Because I'm the one who put some memories that now I know there's a filter from her childhood which will select and modify and deal with those memories, but at least she doesn't have the data. The negative data to work with because she's not there. I okay, there's a negative. But anyway, so that's a kind of, thing that we began to do that and still do is to be sure that we create the a rapid. Right. You know, Gottman. Yeah. You all are Gottman people. You know, this.

Is we.

Are

Gottman. Absolutely discovered and that a whole bunch of science and measurement on that about how many positives you have to do to get rid of a negative. I've often that I think John got it wrong. There's not five. You have to do 20 positives to get rid of a negative. Yeah. But certainly the old process of replacement. But when they add on to me, I'm just responsible for the memory to begin with. So if I don't want to have to do. Yeah, her reaction to me, then create memories so that she likes, likes me. And then once was this glad to seeing me in response possibly next time. We've been doing a lot of talking. Why don't you all talk a little?

Well, I mean, it's really close to what I've been thinking about asking you guys. Would you say that? The heart. So I saw you guys in December at the, in LA at that conference, and you did something that, that I had never really seen done before. You had everybody stand up, and at the beginning, you had them turn to people and say, you're wonderful. And that's the truth, right? And, it I didn't I was like, this is cheesy and stupid. But then I was like, wait a second, this is actually what it's all about, right? Like, this is about, let's call it toxic positivity, right? It sounds like with this is maybe the heart of my question. Would you say that that the focus of Imago therapy or of your work in general, even as a couple, is what you said? Abandoning your commitment to the negative and sort of proactively embracing this idea that you're wonderful. And that's true.

Yes. I think that's the philosophy behind it. It has to do with the view of human nature as well. And the, the human nature that is really dominant as, as, as I think you would know and probably agree in Western civilization and, and but it's also present in most, civilizations and in most religions is that human beings have a flaw and that somehow the, the religion is to help deal with that flow. So like in Christianity, you're a sinner and you need to to deal with that. But in other words, as a negative view of human essence, certainly there are human behaviors that require to look at that are difficult, like war and murder and all that. But the essence of the human, has been considered itself somehow faulty, so that the behaviors are the function of a negative self, of a negative view of the self.

And if you think about that, if you frame a child as problematic when they're little, they will become problems that children live out the way they are perceived. And but parents think if they point out the negatives, the children will then switch to positive. But it's a false assumption. If you point out the negatives, you reinforce the negative by paying attention to it instead of an alternative. And that just it. Here's another way you could do that, Peter. That would make it work better instead of you did that wrong. And when you do that, you know what's going to happen. Those are two paradigmatic shifts. So I'm very much and I have a philosophical background and historical background. So I have some basis on which to look at how the human psyche has been framed over historical time.

And by the way, Freud did essentially the same thing, because when he came to his view of human nature, he found human nature, radically, radically flawed. And, I think Jung had a more positive view of human nature than Freud did. And you can look at psychotherapist and and I've done that about what? What kind of view of human nature are you operating out of? Because if you have a negative view of human nature, you will expect negative behavior if you have a positive view. So you can reframe that. And so one day, Helen and I decided we would go public with, our view of human nature. And you could do that cognitively, like we're doing now. And we'd have very little impact because, you know, people just kind of don't think, oh, well, I'm living with the negative view of human behavior. That's a philosophical that not my philosophical side loves to have that conversation. But if I say.

To you, oh, it's probably why I thought it was so silly, I was like.

This is then something happens and I get you to say, yeah, who? Your partner. And then you to say it. Do yourself, and you just say it to all of us. So we do it at the beginning of every speech, every workshop. Whether is that a professional like we did it at that job or anywhere else. And and you know, those of us who are like, as I said, kind of and I would think it was cheesy if I didn't know what I was doing. So.

Yeah, right.

You this is a view of reality, but you don't live in it. But you're here because you live it in a negative view of reality. You're here to get something that's thing. And we want to tell you what it is, is that you are amazing. You are a creature of an a fantastic universe, and that there's nothing wrong with you. You may have done some things that have not been good for you or may have hurt other people, but it's because you've been hurt. Only hurt people are people. And so we want to begin with the couples. We want to help you recover your original nature because that's what you're looking for in, you know, the, and one of the basis for it, you know, the, is the psychiatrist. You're still face experiment.

Ed Tronic is running.

Don't with that. With that baby and the mother interacting in the first 45 seconds, that is true human nature. And the next 45 seconds is what happens to us. That makes us do stuff that is bad for other people. And we don't get that.

Yeah.

Connection reestablish. We're going to try to do it all of our.

Lives.

And that's going to be our agenda. How do I get to feel good? And anyway, so we now make it, we now make it a part of all of our work.

Could I add something?

Sure.

Please. Beautiful piece. May. You are wonderful. But, also the Ed Tronic. That little baby isn't happy alone. And documents, it's the. It's the mother is is resonating with the baby. The baby person who the baby feels really, it proves that humans are meant to be in relationship. They should have someone that they can live life with. And. But the second point I'd like to make is, something, that I say to the couples at the workshop, humans are part of nature. Just what nature is filled with difference. Now you're frustrated that you're okay. But listen to this nature. Hot, cold, dark. Light. Wet. Dry. Sweet. Sour. Your partner is going to be different.

And and both you and you. And so you, both of you need to learn to stretch into understanding why your partner is the way, they are and what they and their partner thinks the way they think, because it's it's very likely different from you. Maybe you're. Yeah. One of you is voting for one political party and the other for the other. And it's a it's a real trauma for many, many couples. But sure, there's a reason to let it hurt your marriage.

You know, talking about the AD Tronic video for our listeners who don't know of this, the still face experiment, what we'll do is we'll have a Jason are, our podcast, producer put in that video. I think it's maybe just a couple of minutes, but they do a really great job of narrating it. So so the audio version, they'll be able to understand and hear. So we'll slice that in. Since you mentioned that study I think that's a lovely reference. Yeah.

And there's still face experiment with the mother did was she sits down and she's playing with her baby who's about a year of age.

I'm like, oh.

And she gets a greeting to the baby. The baby gives a greeting back to her. Yeah, yeah. This baby starts pointing at different places in the world, and the mother's trying to engage her in play with her. They're working to coordinate their emotions and their intentions. What they want to do in the world. And that's really what the baby is used to. And then we ask the mother to not respond to the baby. The baby very quickly picks up on this, and then she uses all of her abilities to try and get the mother back. She smiles at the mother. She points because she's used to the mother looking where she points that the baby puts both hands up in front of her and says, what's happening here? She makes that screechy sound.

Has the mother like, come on, why aren't we doing this? Even in this two minutes, when they don't get the normal reaction, they react with negative emotions. They turn away, they feel the stress of it. They actually they lose control of their posture because of the stress that they're experienced.

Over time, here.

And what you do. Oh, yeah. So would.

Be okay. Yeah. We start our jobs with that. Horrible is the person that decides the PowerPoint slides. And then at the end, near the end, he repeats.

Yeah, right. I think that video and I've had talk I've talked to him at a couple of, well, what? We went to a conference and he was coming later to speak, and I showed his video in the when we did our lecture, and he got there just in time to see that we were showing this video that he gave him later. He said, yeah, I was planning on show you that video. And I said, well, my guess is, you know, it again. This this is a template of human, of the human. It starts off great. That's our true nature. Then it goes back and and you can go bad with the flip of the switch. The the mother, stops interacting, then goes still. So. And.

The that baby wanted that mother to break that face and smile and did everything right. Flight. Yeah. Flee then turned away that all of the traditional behaviors in 15 or 20 second you could see the human situation totally there. So what we say is every human being on this planet as an infant went through some version of this thing that you just saw on the video and then, the bad thing for most of us is that the caretaker and for most human beings, did not reengage the baby in time for the baby not to settle in on.

This is, the way life is. So that anxiety, occupies the primary affective, neural pattern in most people's brains. Anxiety, not joy, but joy is the original, sensation and is replaced with anxiety and this rupture of connection. And then the rest of our lives, we're trying to get the joy back, and we'll take pills, will go on pilgrimages, we'll pray, we'll join religions, we'll go to therapy. We'll do whatever we can to get the joy back. But it only comes back when you're in a safe relationship, because that's where it was imprinted and where it is. And we are social beings, and we have to have this, this relationship of mutuality in which we are safe. And then, yeah, the joy returns. And so anyway.

And part of your argument is that it's your responsibility to create safety in the relationship, say, for the other, it's your responsibility to create a positive environment and positive memories, for your partner.

That's really both people learning to keep the space between safe for your other, you know, and when when you do it a healthier person.

Wait wait wait wait, Helen, let me see if I can say that again. It's both people learning to keep the space between safe for each other. Is that which is that?

Yeah. This is an energy field, and it's this.

This is an energy between you.

Even how Harvard looks at me, we even go. So far as to talk. You know, if a person has a glare, they need to shift from the glare to the gaze when they're talking with their partner. And.

Speaking my language now.

And, and there's a and voice tone. So if ever, if ever my voice tone isn't good, Harvard wants he goes. Helen Beatty. And whenever Harvard doesn't look in his eye glare. What? What do you say, Helen? What did you say? Oh, I go lol loving look, listen, l I don't say loving look, I just go l l the. Yeah. And he goes over.

So you have a shorthand to help you remember the cues and clues. What I will tell our listeners right now is that we can see Harville and Helen on the screen and, he's looking at you with plenty of gaze, for sure, as you're talking is definitely capturing, hanging on every word that comes out of your mouth. So I can vouch for him in that way. Yeah.

Thank you. I appreciate coming. Yeah, indeed.

You.

What is coming up for the two of you? I mean, I part of my curiosity is how do folks engage with the two of you? Obviously, Zach was able to see you at a conference that was for other professionals. But the majority of our listeners are not professionals. They're they're couples who are stuck or couples who want to make things better. So what is the best way to engage with the two of you?

Lackluster.

Yeah. How how do how would the public engage with us? Yeah.

If there's a couple out there and they're interested in what you're having to say. Yeah. And they want to work with you. How do they do that?

There's let me say three sentences. Therefore, Quantum Connections LLC is has a training institute for if people want to learn the dialog skills, they can sign up and be trained can use the dialog skills. And then they also if they continue more training, they can become a teacher of other people who can train. But also a real important thing has happened. Half of my, several years ago went to Bain b I n a company that helps entities like businesses become more profitable in their businesses. And they analyzed our work and they said, you are the first thing you should do is distribute it into a business, have people, a business, a corporation, a college. If they learn about dialog skills, they'll want to take it to their families. And we have a Quantum Connections at Work program that a person can purchase. You know, for a business operation.

Well, let me just put that in context so that you're now talking about our global social movement called Safe Conversations, which is to get dialog. We we have identified the enemy of humankind, which is monologue some years ago, and that okay, for thousands of years back to all ever since human beings have talked, there's been mono logical. I talk, I talk, you talk or we talk at the same time, but we are talking at one about each other. And, and as you know, about 40 years ago, we developed a therapeutic intervention goal dialog, which is the only thing Imago therapists do is they engage, help couples move into a dialogical space. The space becomes the interactive space for.

People to problem solve using dialog.

So, the, that dialog is, is that then I sort of lost my train of thought.

Well, you were talking about how you have a sort of a global focus now to help change.

Yeah, just sort of a way. It could be called grandiose.

It's grandiose.

Although it's certain. It's certainly grand.

Yeah.

Why not? It's just. It is to teach dialog to 2.4 billion people on the planet in the next 30 years. And that's the tipping point. Wow. Of the population in 2050. And we think then this fundamental structure of monologue will change to dialog. And that'll be the new way human beings talk to each other. But to come down off of that perch to how the people engage with Helen and me, we do about eight public couples weekends a year. About half of our online, and the other four are a Capella retreat center and Omega Retreat Center, both of which are or are the northeast. So people can get to those by going to Harvard and helen.com looking at the schedule and clicking and signing up.

Well, we are grateful for the opportunity to help spread the word about your work, especially as you try to change the whole globe. I think it's cool, too, that couples have access to you through these workshops. We're definitely going to point them in your direction. I know that you guys have personally impacted the work that I do and that Laura does so well. It's like, well, thank you for that. It's it's hard to find somebody in the couples therapy world who hasn't, been impacted by what you guys have brought to the table. After decades and decades of labor in the couples therapy scene? So thank you for that. And, yeah, we're just really, really glad to have gotten some time with you this morning.

Thank you, Your Honor. You did. And we appreciate your having us on and listening and spreading the word.

No, we are.

Well, I tell you what, we're going to be friends. Because if I come down to Dallas to visit my kid, I'm definitely going to give you a heads up and we're going to we're going to come up, come over and have dinner, go out and eat some, get some home together.